With so much talk about "shaving sharp" and "scary sharp", how do we tell what is sharp enough?
For instance, I just bought a new pack of Magnus Buzzcuts. Straight out of the package I'm sure they've killed thousands of deer with no problem - but they won't shave hair.
Just how do you tell when your broadheads are sharp enough to make you comfortable taking them into the woods?
I spoke with Dave Oligee of Simmons Broadheads a few weeks ago before a turkey hunt. I told him that I was not getting the broadheads "shaving sharp" and wanted to know what he used to get his sharp. His response kind of shocked me. He said, "Dan, why would you want them razor sharp? I only ever get mine burr sharp". He then went on to explain that he only uses a small file and gets a good burr and then he takes them hunting.
Take that for what it's worth.
I think shaving sharp is about as sharp as most of us can measure, anyway. What's the first test we use when we work an edge? Yep, we drag it across our forearm to see if it cuts hair. In fact, I don't really know any other quick test to perform. I do want mine razor sharp, because I feel it may help with penetration, but I can offer no real proof. Yet, in broadhead sharpness, there is no such ting as too much cutting efficiency.
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
I spoke with Dave Oligee of Simmons Broadheads a few weeks ago before a turkey hunt. I told him that I was not getting the broadheads "shaving sharp" and wanted to know what he used to get his sharp. His response kind of shocked me. He said, "Dan, why would you want them razor sharp? I only ever get mine burr sharp". He then went on to explain that he only uses a small file and gets a good burr and then he takes them hunting.
Take that for what it's worth.
interesting :dunno:
Im with the simmons guy, i get them as sharp as i can with a file and stone, run my thumb down it, and if i can see it cutting my skin without much effort i go hunting. Unconventional, but works for me.
I think that is a little like asking "how accurate is accurate enough?"
I would think the answer is as good as you can get in either case.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
I would think the answer is as good as you can get in either case.
Well, I sort of agree. With regards to accuracy, maybe you only keep hunting shots to 5 yards or less if you're not completely comfortable. Or maybe 10 yards or less.
It wouldn't be wise to pull out a Bear Razorhead that really needs some work, and take it out hunting without properly restoring the edge first. As good as you can get may not be good enough to properly bring down game in that case.
I was always under the impression that if it wasn't shaving hair it's not sharp enough.
Take this for what it is worth. I am not aware of anyone, for certain myself, that has not killed or recovered an animal based on broadhead sharpness. That doesn't mean that I don't try to get my broadheads sharp, or that my arms aren't frequently bald from testing them, but if they feel sharp to the touch, I think that is good enough.
When they shave dry hair with the flow, not against-I'm done-why not?
A dull broad head in a perfect shot in the heart or lungs will kill, a sharp broadhead in a not so perfect shot can still kill. A dull head in a not so perfect shot usually won't kill. IMHO
Therefore I get mine as sharp as I can!
When I can shave hair off my arm without applying too much pressure, I'm good to go.
This is why I like a broadhead that will pop hair with ease off my arm...45 yards recovery
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/Mobile%20Uploads/20141109_094441_zps524522f4.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141109_094441_zps524522f4.jpg.html)
My opinion. . . . shaving sharp is the goal, but if you can't quite achieve that, that's OK. Get them as sharp as you can. Any fairly sharp object going 160+ FPS thru any meat is gonna cut the hell out of it. You get paper cuts from paper that isn't sharpened, going a lot less swiftly.
If you achieve shaving sharp by using an extreme bevel. you vastly weaken the edge, and some metal won't deal with it.
ChuckC
I get my Grizzlies quite sharp, however they do not quite shave my arm. No problems with lethality or blood trails.
They have to shave before I'll take them to the woods!
Bisch
When I go for a shaving sharp edge, I want it to shave cleanly and easily with no drag. However, using a Grizzly file, they have a single tooth sharp file teeth edge with a rounded narrow side, they can be used to get a file/steel edge or a file/serration edge. Both seem to work about as well as shaving sharp for me, but with the Hill broadhead directions, there is a difference between merely rough versus keen, if in doubt with those go to the Tom Mussatto method. With the old Grizzlies one can serrate them as well, but the serration should be pulled from the filed side back to front or from the flat side front to back to get the serration angling forward to get the most immediate blood. I do that as well with my single bevel Hills. Recently I have found that the old tan Bears seem to have a more durable edge with a filed edge than with a honed edge, I am guessing the reason is that it is a softer metal.
Deep and Sharp thoughts with Dr. Ed Ashby...
http://tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby%20ours/Getting%20an%20Edge%20on%20Success.pdf
My dad goes by the method that if the edge will catch and dig into your finger nail they are sharp enough. Is this necessarily shaving sharp, no. He has killed more things than I can count with a bow so I find no need to argue with him and his theory. I on the other hand will get my broadheads to shave the hair on my arm before I will shoot them at anything. Why, because I enjoy sharpening my heads and enjoy getting them as sharp as I can, same goes for my knives.
They have to shave hair. And they have to shave hair because they may get a little dulled simply by carrying them around and moving them in and out of the quiver. I swear that if you get a broadhead razor sharp and leave it exposed to open air for a couple weeks, its not the same as when it came off the stone. If I get them to shave, and then they get bumped/moved/vibrated or whatever just enough so they don't quiet shave the exact way like fresh off the stone, I know they are still sharp enough. Like an aim small miss small sort of thinking.........
Am I insane? Its worked for me so far :thumbsup:
If it snaps a rubber band easy it's sharp enough for me.
I've went back and forth over the years between a wire burr edge and an extremely honed shaving edge. Probably killed 25 or 30 big game animals with either/or each. I've decided I'm firmly in the wire burr edge camp. Consistently I've seen that a wire burr edge kills as cleanly, generally gives as good or better blood trails for me, and holds up much better than a finely honed edge. I've never picked up a broadhead that had a finely honed edge from a shot big game animal that retained the edge significantly, burr edges typically aren't damaged nearly as quickly in my experience. I like the old Razor Rake pull through sharpener for my wire edge heads.
R
When I can shave hair off my arm, I'm satisfied.
Mr. Rothhaar,
Do you still use the hollowgrind technique on the bench grinder on the Snuffers to establish the edge?
Yes, sir, I do. Hollowgrind on 6 inch bench grinder to establish the new bevels, then pull through the Rake, which gives it actually a steeper hollow angle and the wire edge.
The tutorial I posted on here years ago that gets pulled up once in a while shows the honed, razor sharp edge establishment. I don't show the Rake method, cause you cant get them anymore and I don't want 500 PM's asking where to get that nifty sharpener. :)
R
This is a never ending debate, and I think I know why. A lot of folks equate a file sharp edge as dull, and a honed edge as sharp. When in truth, it all depends on how its done.
The edge, whether it be a broadhead, a knofe, or a lawnmower blade has to be sharp and straight to a point. Now that sounds obvious, but I've seen so many people struggle with sharpening simply because they roll over the edge, never creating two intersecting planes. Imagine the top edge of a car window: Its thin on the sides, and its polished, but it wont cut you. Blades are the same way.They must come to a point.
Break a piece of flint or obsidian and pick up a flake. CAREFULLY. It breaks to an edge. It will cut you horribly.
I use an 8 inch file, and have killed far to many animals like that to believe you need a honed edge. Sharp yes, but not honed. A straight edge is a sharp edge. And like Ryan said, they stay sharp in the quiver much longer too. Sorry to be so long winded, but this comes up a lot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Scott E:
If it snaps a rubber band easy it's sharp enough for me.
I stretch a rubber band between my thumb and index finger. Then rest the point of the broadhead on the band. Hold the arrow back at the nock. Now, with just the weight of the arrow pressing down, push the arrow forward to slice the band. It should cut through in less than the length of the blade.
I'm not interested in shaving animals. I want to cut their arteries and veins. Rubber bands best simulate this.
I sharpen with a TruAngle file block. It's how I've done it forever and never let me down.
If you take a rubber band stretch her out then take the head and touch everso light if the band push's down the heads not sharp enough. If it cuts on contact with no pressure its plenty sharp.
When we keep working on the heads that don't cut hair we are just lightening the BH at times. Grain them and you will see. If the burr drags your fingernail shes good also most of the time.
What good is a razor sharp broadhead if you are as bad a hunter as I am?
The only cutting my broadheads to are to the practice target.
Charlie. get closer to the critters ! You can do it !
This is a never ending discussion. Lots of critters have succumbed to arrows of all sorts, from stone points, to bone points to steel points and some I haven't thought of. Pretty certain that some of the carved wooden points used in the jungle are nowhere near as sharp as we are discussing. Those folks eat OK I am guessing.
Get them as sharp as you can and put them in a good spot, and you will be happy with the results. If you don't do that, well, your results may vary.
ChuckC
Agreed, Chuck. But it is the off-season for a lot of folks, lol. I am all about less time sharpening and more time hunting, plus a method of sharpening that I can easily take with me into the field.
I sharpen them with stones. Then I strop with leather impregnated with jewlers rouge , then with a clean leather strop. The strops are glued to boards and made out of heavy carving leather. I've never got a head too sharp. As far as I am concerned scarey sharp is not too sharp.
Cut yourself with a razor blade and it will make you bleed like a stuck hog. Sharp knife not so much. Also once it does clot and stops major bleeding the healing takes place pretty fast comparatively and I believe allows a wounded animal to have more possibility of ultimately surviving.
I shot a deer once and lost it. CAme back a couple days later to look for it again and the deer was feeding on some bushes in the same place I had shot it. I shot it again and killed it. There was the place where I hit the first shot , low and catching one lung too far back with a pass through. both sides sealed up . That deer would have probably survived.
All that said I have a smooth cut machinist file that I carry in my pack and can get a razor sharp edge with it if I shoot an arrow and mess the edge up. I have no problem using that edge to hunt with.
Someone said they like to sharpen heads. I agree. Its like part of the ritual. I love the pic of Ron sitting in camp sharpening. I think it says a lot about priorities and about what this is all about.
God bless, Steve
I find this topic very interesting. I've been a compound bowhunter since I was 13 and I'm 40 now. I had a very short stint with a trad bow a few years ago but I'm jumping back in with both feet.
I've always hunted with replaceable blade type heads. Shoot them trough a deer and replace the blades which were always beyond shaving sharp. I would never consider hunting with anything less sharp.
So I just ordered 6 VPA 2 blade heads which I will have to at some point sharpen. Again I'm thinking razor sharp.????
The deer I dress out and bone is done with a scary sharp edge on my knife. The sharper the knife the easier it is to slice. I would think the same to be true with a broadhead. It's hard to argue with some of your guys success though.
Well, one thing is for sure. You will never suffer from having sharper broadheads, unless it means less time in the woods. Welcome back to trad.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
They have to shave before I'll take them to the woods!
Bisch
That's the way I look at it too. That doesn't necessarily mean my heads are as sharp as they could possibly be, but shaving sharp has always seemed to work well for me.
Having said that, I'll tell you about a friend of mine. He shoots a compound set at 70#. He buys the newest state of the art camo, boots, what have you, each year, looking for that extra edge. He can afford it, It gives him confidence, and he just plain likes to buy new things.
When it comes to that most important piece of equipment, broadheads, he couldn't care less. He uses heads that make me cringe when I see them. Old, dull, rusty, and sometimes even bent a little. The thing that really gets me, is that he kills deer with them. Pretty much every year, with very few problems. Long shots, short shots, steeply angled treestand shots, from stands that are so high, I'd get dizzy sitting in them.
He uses the replaceable blade muzzy's by the way, good heads IMO. I shot them with great results when I went through my compound phase.The blades aren't all that expensive, and they're simple to change. But for whatever reason, he keeps using those old beat up heads. For the life of me, I don't understand how he's as successful as he is with them.
Bob
A good edge on a broadhead is important. However you do it, shaving sharp or burr edge it's part of the ritual to "touch up" your heads. I killed my first deer with an M-A 3 broadhead 55 years ago. Back then most broadheads didn't have the good steel that heads have today so I started filing serrations on the back 3rd of the blades. Some heads made today have serrations on them and personally I think it improves the cutting ability of the blade. I think it's harder for a tough artery to slid past a serrated edge then a straight edge even it's it's "shaving sharp"
Here's an example of what I call my "LaClair Lacerator" on an Ace Express head used last fall
(http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small78966657.JPG)
Anyone else use an Accusharp carbide sharpener? I have no problem getting a shaving sharp edge in a few swipes across my Zwickey and Magnus 2 blades. To answer the original question I like them shaving sharp and at one time I spent a lot of time sharpening but now I get comparable results in a lot less time.
It'll sharpen serrated edges too :)
(http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/BedBathandBeyond/20611440042619p?$478$)
I feel similar to spookinelk. I don't know of a 2 blade that I can't get hunting ready with a RADA sharpener if it already has a bevel set. If not, some quick file work will get it there. To each there own.
I don't care how it works, that is a cool looking broadhead, Ron.
Like Ron I have serrated my blades with a small chain saw file for years. It works and you only need three or four serrations. I guarantee the no artery or blood vessel is going to slip by one of those blades.
God bless, steve
In deer camp last fall, I'm serrating one of Tim Cosgroves Trailmaker heads for him
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/rnorris/Shrewhaven2014004_zpsbc5e1c74.jpg)
Ron, That will only work with left wing fletch. You using the wrong wing to hold that file Bro.
God bless, Steve
Ron, That will only work with left wing fletch. You using the wrong wing to hold that file Bro.
God bless, Steve
Burr sharp for me. Bad results are from poorly placed shots not the Broadhead as many blame.
I've switched back and forth over the years but favoring slightly rougher filed edge... though it will still cut hair.
Now I typically use both at once. I bring the edge to a razor like polish with multiple stones and my KME jig... love that tool!
Next I rake the edge with the corner of a file ala Howard Hill, Tom Mussato, et al. Then it's back to the KME and a hard Arkansas stone to polish off the burr left by the file raking.
It makes for a very rugged edge that cuts everything it touches can't be "wiped smooth" by passing across bone.
I like Ron's method as well. He knows a thing or two about killing critters.
Gene Wensel has used a serrate edge in the past. He used a checkering file from Brownell's. He knows a thing or two as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by Spookinelk:
Anyone else use an Accusharp carbide sharpener? I have no problem getting a shaving sharp edge in a few swipes across my Zwickey and Magnus 2 blades. To answer the original question I like them shaving sharp and at one time I spent a lot of time sharpening but now I get comparable results in a lot less time.
I'll have to check these out. Had no idea they'd work that well on broadheads.
So when I look at them my eyes bleed.
We all have our preferred method of touching up our broadheads and who's to say which way is best. Sometimes I file serrations on the blade and sometimes I don't, it depends on the broadhead and my mood.
I've also did it the way Charlie does with the edge of the file but I haven't honed it again after doing that. I find the older I get the more set in my ways I am an I just do things the way I've always done them.
A friend of mine is a well known flint knapper and has killed a bunch of critters with the heads he has knapped. He was at a big shoot some years back and was showing a group of younger guys how he sharpened a steel point by putting a burr edge on the head with the edge of a file. One of the guys ask him why he didn't use a shaving edge to which he replied, "I don't wanna shave em, I just wanna kill em" He wasn't trying to be funny, he was serious. :saywhat:
That friend was old Norm Blaker, I call him old because he just a little older then me. :)
(http://traditionalblackpowderhunting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Norm_Blaker_Flintknapping.jpg)
For field touch ups...I prefer the RADA wheel sharpner. Puts a razor edge on any head.
Thank you Joe. I always said you made great sense.
I only can tell from knives: A super polished edge may not better cutting meat/flesh than others. I tried several grit and came out with 800-1000 grit works best on my knives to cut meat. So i do the fingernail test and a paper tissue test. Crumble a paper tissue an try to cut this only with the weight of the knife.
a Bastard file and a steel will do just fine :thumbsup:
a Bastard file and a steel will do just fine :thumbsup:
Ron, it's worked for humans for thousands of years - I suppose the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" fits appropriately here.
Start with a 10 mil file, leather strop. Then like I said earlier, for field...RADA
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/003_zpscxddqmkn.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/sf1oak/media/003_zpscxddqmkn.jpg.html)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/002_zpsfmwtzkot.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/sf1oak/media/002_zpsfmwtzkot.jpg.html)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/005_zpshybev93y.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/sf1oak/media/005_zpshybev93y.jpg.html)
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
I spoke with Dave Oligee of Simmons Broadheads a few weeks ago before a turkey hunt. I told him that I was not getting the broadheads "shaving sharp" and wanted to know what he used to get his sharp. His response kind of shocked me. He said, "Dan, why would you want them razor sharp? I only ever get mine burr sharp". He then went on to explain that he only uses a small file and gets a good burr and then he takes them hunting.
Take that for what it's worth.
What I meant to add to the above before posting was this...I was checking the edge on one of my knives this morning and realized that there was a noticeable burr that I would want to take off before getting serious with the knife...at the same time I realized that a broadhead only needs to do a one time cutting job and a burred head will do that rather nicely...I am going to spend more time shooting and less time sharpening from now on
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by Scott E:
If it snaps a rubber band easy it's sharp enough for me.
I like the rubber band test too.... it gives you a good idea what that broadhead is going to do to veins and arteries.....
I prefer a file edge over a razor edge that can be touched up easily in the field. i filed edge with the burrs work like a serrated edge knife..... if sharpened correctly you can shave with them too, but they typically peel a little skin with the hair. :eek: .... The fingernail check works well too. i use that one with my fish hooks a lot.
I like the fact that a filed edge holds longer in my quiver than a razor edge.