First things first, my new Hoyt Buffalo just came in the mail! I am beyond excited and happy with this thing. I will try and post some pictures of it in action when I get a chance.
That being said, I wanted to double check with anyone who has experience with hunting western big game animals, specifically for me bull elk, to see if a 535 overall arrow weight is sufficient momentum/knockdown power. My past arrow setup was closer to 580 so before I change some things, I wanted opinions and thoughts.
I'll be shooting a 50# Buffalo rated @ 28" but I'm pulling 30" draw so roughly 55# actual draw weight. And that would be with a 340 spine Easton Axis traditional using a 150 grain broadhead.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Assuming that the arrow is well tuned, you put that arrow in the right place with a very sharp broadhead, and you will have a very dead elk not too far away!
Bisch
You will likely get a lot of opinions...in fact your question, at this point, has been asked and answered...now work on putting said arrow exactly where you want...and work on getting as close as possible to that big bull...and btw there is no such things as knockdown power when it comes to arrows
DDave
A good post. I have been thinking about this for some time. A lighter arrow offers a flatter tradjectory but poorer penetration at distances beyond 25 yards.
I know Mike Treadway shot an elk with one of his bows that was lightweight but the shot was from a tree stand at about 10-15 yards. He got great penetration with an aluminum arrow and a two blade Eskimo. Seems to be two thoughts on this subject. Eastern hunters prefer a heavier arrow but some veteran western elk hunters prefer the lighter arrow for the potential longer shot.
Some of you successful elk hunters can post your set ups and arrow weights and rough yardage of shots would be very helpful.
I'm a mid-westerner, but have been elk hunting for 25 years or so and killed a few along the way. Will a 535 grain arrow kill an elk? Sure. That being said, I prefer 600 grains plus.
Don't know why folks think they have to shoot farther in western hunting. I don't. All of my elk kill shots, except one, have been inside of 20 yards.
I now shoot 52-56# ACS bows with 600-650 grain skinny carbon Axis arrows and two blade broad heads -- STOS, Abowyer and Zwickey. Usually have one of each in the quiver. Shot heavier bows when I was younger, and still would if I could. Elk are big critters.
Try this subject.....
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=128480#000000
Most of the critters I have killed have been with 8-9 grains per pound. Elk, Deer, Bear, Moose, etc. Has nothing to do with shot distance, it is just what I shoot. IMO the arrow weight issue has confused many. I am not advocating light arrows, of which I do not believe 8-9 GPP fall. But judging what is generally posted on this board pertaining to arrow weight one would be led to believe 10-12 would be minimum.
Strong sharp broadhead and good arrow flight....and practice
There is some great info in that thread, Matty, by a sure enough master on the subject!
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
There is some great info in that thread, Matty, by a sure enough master on the subject!
Bisch
Oh Randy!!?? He may or may not know what he's talkin' bout! ;)
Last night a buddy of ours said. ... "He's so lucky! I think he eats 4 leaf clovers and craps out horse shoes"
:biglaugh:
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are...
So, if I build the 535 grain arrow, what is your favorite 140-165 grain two blade broadhead?
Stickbow wrote:
"Most of the critters I have killed have been with 8-9 grains per pound. Elk, Deer, Bear, Moose, etc. Has nothing to do with shot distance, it is just what I shoot. IMO the arrow weight issue has confused many. I am not advocating light arrows, of which I do not believe 8-9 GPP fall. But judging what is generally posted on this board pertaining to arrow weight one would be led to believe 10-12 would be minimum.
Strong sharp broadhead and good arrow flight....and practice"
Amen Brother! In my experience, its difficult to get an aluminum arrow to fly well at 10 GPP and up, yet for decades, aluminum was the standard.
Who said that Matty ha ha?
In truth though its not about luck all the time. You have to be ready when lady luck shines on you.
My honest thought is if you really draw 30 they you are in the ball park. Might try to squeeze a few more grains out your arrow in insert or head weight.
As for broadheads? SHARP, TUNED, and cut on contact. The Magnus Stinger is the tried and true. There is also the Cutthroat from RMSGear and many others out there. Don't get wrapped up in the hype around any head in particular. There so many great ones.
I am not the foremost authority on any of this stuff but if I can be of any help to you hit me up. I love to talk about elk hunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
The Magnus Stinger is the tried and true.
Yup. I use the 150 grain ones with bleeders. Sailed through elk on 540 grain arrows.
My current bow is a 64" 50# ACS CX that I pull to 48#. Cedar arrows weigh in at 590 gns incl 175 gn BH. Doug fir in about 50-60 gn heavier. Both work just fine. There is so much more to killing an Elk. I think David Peterson advocated for a 650 gn arrow traveling at 160 fps in his book. Orion above nailed it!
Anyone had experience with the Steel Force traditional series broadhead? I like the 3:1 ratio and the single bevel design. Just curious if there were any users out there.
Thanks for the input everyone!
No experience with the steel force but I've been shooting quite a few Tuskers from Tim at Braveheart recently and they all are flying great.
Not sure exactly why this issue keeps coming up. As for myself, however, I will say that I have always been concerned about ethical shots.
Last year, I went crazy trying to find my perfect setup to hunt Africa. My setup was almost identical to yours. And I was able to come home with a Wildebeest, roughly the same size as an Elk.
My research showed that all issues were marginal. Heavier arrow had only marginal increased penetration. Lighter arrow had only marginally less drop at 25 yards. So, in the end, I built the arrow I liked. BTW, I used a 150 grain, 2 blade stinger with some other weight attached to the insert inside.
Bottom line, you'll be fine with what you have. Practice, practice, practice... Hit what you're aiming at, and have sharp broadheads.
QuoteOriginally posted by dustinwittwer:
Anyone had experience with the Steel Force traditional series broadhead? I like the 3:1 ratio and the single bevel design. Just curious if there were any users out there.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Steel Force Traditional heads look like they would curl up on the tip to me, you would want to tanto the tips significantly if you went with them. I'm using the Cutthroat Broadheads this year, 200gr screw in's. They performed superbly for me deer hunting and they are the easiest head to sharpen I've come across! They all work if sharp and in the right spot!
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
QuoteOriginally posted by dustinwittwer:
Anyone had experience with the Steel Force traditional series broadhead? I like the 3:1 ratio and the single bevel design. Just curious if there were any users out there.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Steel Force Traditional heads look like they would curl up on the tip to me, you would want to tanto the tips significantly if you went with them. I'm using the Cutthroat Broadheads this year, 200gr screw in's. They performed superbly for me deer hunting and they are the easiest head to sharpen I've come across! They all work if sharp and in the right spot! [/b]
The single bevel traditional heads have a tonto tip and are .080 thick
QuoteOriginally posted by Prairie Drifter:
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
QuoteOriginally posted by dustinwittwer:
Anyone had experience with the Steel Force traditional series broadhead? I like the 3:1 ratio and the single bevel design. Just curious if there were any users out there.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Steel Force Traditional heads look like they would curl up on the tip to me, you would want to tanto the tips significantly if you went with them. I'm using the Cutthroat Broadheads this year, 200gr screw in's. They performed superbly for me deer hunting and they are the easiest head to sharpen I've come across! They all work if sharp and in the right spot! [/b]
The single bevel traditional heads have a tonto tip and are .080 thick [/b]
I didn't see a single bevel listed on their web page
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
QuoteOriginally posted by Prairie Drifter:
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
quote:
Originally posted by dustinwittwer:
Anyone had experience with the Steel Force traditional series broadhead? I like the 3:1 ratio and the single bevel design. Just curious if there were any users out there.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Steel Force Traditional heads look like they would curl up on the tip to me, you would want to tanto the tips significantly if you went with them. I'm using the Cutthroat Broadheads this year, 200gr screw in's. They performed superbly for me deer hunting and they are the easiest head to sharpen I've come across! They all work if sharp and in the right spot! [/b]
The single bevel traditional heads have a tonto tip and are .080 thick [/b]
I didn't see a single bevel listed on their web page
3 Rivers and Kustom King carry them
I use Axis Trad 340's and have a similar draw length and weight. Your shaft should be a little stiff based on my experience, which would allow you to put more weight up front. Have you bare shafted your setup yet? If not, my bet would be that you would get better flight from a 200ish grain point. Plus you get more weight, so everyone wins!
Last year I took two mule deer and a bull elk with GT 7595, a 200 grain grizzly with a 125 gr steel insert. Total arrow weight was around 750 grains. This year I have gone back to wood shafts and will be using a 470 grain douglas fir shaft with a 160 grain cutthroat broadhead. I had slight tip curling on two grizzlies last year even though they both ended up with exit wounds on the animals. One skated over two ribs on my elk before penetrating into the chest and one hit the edge of the shoulder blade on the mule deer in my avatar. I believe that the cutthroat is the finest head I have ever handled and look forward to putting them to good use this fall. My woody setup weighs in at 675 grains. I shoot a 65 lb Bear Montana longbow.
I think the heavy arrow/single bevel/Ashby folks (myself included) would readily admit that light arrows (500ish) with multi-blade, non-cut-on-contact heads can kill elk just fine! Heavier arrows just make up for a little bit of unpredictability when things go wrong and you hit shoulder or leg bones. I shoot 650-grains, 25% FOC, single bevel 3:1 heads for just that reason.
Dustin, I have several packs of the Steel Force Traditional 300 gr single bevel. They seem like great heads, except in about half of them there is some play between the ferrule and the blade. Probably wouldn't make a difference, but it drives me nuts. I've let their customer service know about it; we'll see what they say.
The Cutthroats look like they'll be the ultimate broadhead. I'm just waiting for a 300-gr screw in!
Pete
My only elk was taken with a 630 grain carbon. However, I was only shooting about 47 # at my draw length.
I think you would be fine with your set up.
JMO
QuoteOriginally posted by dustinwittwer:
So, if I build the 535 grain arrow, what is your favorite 140-165 grain two blade broadhead?
150gr German Kinetic for me!
Bisch
I know this might offend some guys...but if I lived out west, and planned on hunting elk on a regular basis I'd work a bit on getting my bow weight up to the 60lb range if possible and plan on matching my arrows at 600-650 grains (as opposed to your 50ish/500ish grain arrow). Elk are tough critters, amazingly so sometimes, and a little mistake can get big fast. I know so-and-so shot an elk with a 40 lb bow one time....great, and I've got a buddy that is a crazy-serious elk guy that spends a month every year living in the back country hunting them and has shot a bunch of bulls with HH type bows in the 70ish lb range, and typical cedar arrows probably around 550 gr. He has plenty of stories about marginal penetration on decent hits, with this heavy equipment. Everyone assumes "hit them where you should"...well if that was a given you could use any equipment and be fine. I'd caution folks that plan on hunting elk seriously, and often, to treat them like exactly what they are...a 500-800 lb deer....and if you think a 250 lb mature whitetail is tough (which they ARE) imagine him being 2-3X bigger.
Of course some folks can't or don't want to step up on arrow/bow wt, and have to figure out something that will work for them....but I think it is a dangerous slope to always talk about "whats the minimum bow or arrow weight to hunt X animal".....
My elk killing is limited to 2 bulls, one "average" body size and one "great big" body size, but when comparing them to other large bodied animals I've killed in the US (moose, musk ox) I think elk are significantly tougher than either of these 2. For what its worth these bulls were both killed with 60-65lb recurves, aluminum arrows in the 625-650 gr range, and both were complete penetration with big Snuffers through the chest. The big bodied bull was hit through both lungs and large arteries over the heart, center chest, and went every bit of 200 yards flat out. Plenty of blood, of course, but I was surprised he went that far hit that way - a testimonial to a rutted-up mature bull elk's will to live. Total shot distance on both bulls added together was 12 yards (one at 5yds, one at 7yds).
R
I have only killed elk with 650 grain arrows from a 70# bow. So, about 9 gpp worked great with a 160 grain snuffer out the other side on all three.
Personally I shoot a 600 grain arrow out of a 55lb bow. As said above what matters is shot placement period. Elk are not hard to get really close to. What is hard is getting a clear shot at the vitals. My son shot a big bull in the shoulder with a 600 grain arrow, zwickey two blade from a 70lb compound at 17 yards. Zero penetration, the broadhead formed a perfect "U". 25 yards or less, broadside only, boiler plate, dead elk with your set up. After my son's shot last year I am switching heads. Looking at Cutthroats.
From what I can tell about the cutthroats is the only way they could be improved is if they would extend the guarantee to cover loss!!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by newhouse114:
From what I can tell about the cutthroats is the only way they could be improved is if they would extend the guarantee to cover loss!!!!
Very true! But they have improved them some since the original batch at least on the screw in model they did. I sure hope they keep producing them!
QuoteOriginally posted by newhouse114:
From what I can tell about the cutthroats is the only way they could be improved is if they would extend the guarantee to cover loss!!!!
Totally agree. These things are rock solid. I have shot them into all kinds of mediums with impressive results. They take a scary sharp edge as well. The team did make some improvements on them in the second run which I believe we're for the better.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
I know this might offend some guys...but if I lived out west, and planned on hunting elk on a regular basis I'd work a bit on getting my bow weight up to the 60lb range if possible and plan on matching my arrows at 600-650 grains (as opposed to your 50ish/500ish grain arrow). Elk are tough critters, amazingly so sometimes, and a little mistake can get big fast. I know so-and-so shot an elk with a 40 lb bow one time....great, and I've got a buddy that is a crazy-serious elk guy that spends a month every year living in the back country hunting them and has shot a bunch of bulls with HH type bows in the 70ish lb range, and typical cedar arrows probably around 550 gr. He has plenty of stories about marginal penetration on decent hits, with this heavy equipment. Everyone assumes "hit them where you should"...well if that was a given you could use any equipment and be fine. I'd caution folks that plan on hunting elk seriously, and often, to treat them like exactly what they are...a 500-800 lb deer....and if you think a 250 lb mature whitetail is tough (which they ARE) imagine him being 2-3X bigger.
Of course some folks can't or don't want to step up on arrow/bow wt, and have to figure out something that will work for them....but I think it is a dangerous slope to always talk about "whats the minimum bow or arrow weight to hunt X animal".....
My elk killing is limited to 2 bulls, one "average" body size and one "great big" body size, but when comparing them to other large bodied animals I've killed in the US (moose, musk ox) I think elk are significantly tougher than either of these 2. For what its worth these bulls were both killed with 60-65lb recurves, aluminum arrows in the 625-650 gr range, and both were complete penetration with big Snuffers through the chest. The big bodied bull was hit through both lungs and large arteries over the heart, center chest, and went every bit of 200 yards flat out. Plenty of blood, of course, but I was surprised he went that far hit that way - a testimonial to a rutted-up mature bull elk's will to live. Total shot distance on both bulls added together was 12 yards (one at 5yds, one at 7yds).
R
Real talk right there. And I agree 100%. It's funny, I've always applied this exact theory to my compound arrows before my traditional life. I would be the guy shooting a 300 spine ACC with a 125 gr tip and an 80# bow. And now that I shoot traditional, for some reason I'm looking to go on the "light" side. Ha! Makes no sense.
My bow is 50# @ 28" but I'm pulling 30"+ so I should be up around 55#. Anyways, for now I'll be building a second option out of a 300 spine axis with a 200 grain head (really liking the cutthroat as well) that will weigh about 600 total grains with about 16% FOC.
I'll try and post an update. Thanks for the input!
Quote
Real talk right there. And I agree 100%. It's funny, I've always applied this exact theory to my compound arrows before my traditional life. I would be the guy shooting a 300 spine ACC with a 125 gr tip and an 80# bow. And now that I shoot traditional, for some reason I'm looking to go on the "light" side. Ha! Makes no sense.
My bow is 50# @ 28" but I'm pulling 30"+ so I should be up around 55#. Anyways, for now I'll be building a second option out of a 300 spine axis with a 200 grain head (really liking the cutthroat as well) that will weigh about 600 total grains with about 16% FOC.
I'll try and post an update. Thanks for the input!
That should get it done. :bigsmyl:
I'm no elk hunter but I've used them on a couple whitetail in my early days, good heads.
I'm with Ryan on this one. I shot 70# for years out of Schaffer and TallTines. Recently switched to 61# at my draw for whitetail but if I were out west and seriously hunting elk I would definately be shooting the 70# set up. They are big animals and valuable as well.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/IMGP0146_zps2f62dded.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/IMGP0146_zps2f62dded.jpg.html)
Around 540 grains @ 55 lbs, did the job.
Arrows are 6.98 GPI, at about 29 1/2 to 30 inches = 220, 100 grain brass insert, 200 grain broadhead, feathers and nock.
penetration right through to far rib cage / leg ( about four inch out still)
QuoteOriginally posted by Hummer3T:
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/IMGP0146_zps2f62dded.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/IMGP0146_zps2f62dded.jpg.html)
Around 540 grains @ 55 lbs, did the job.
Arrows are 6.98 GPI, at about 29 1/2 to 30 inches = 220, 100 grain brass insert, 200 grain broadhead, feathers and nock.
penetration right through to far rib cage / leg ( about four inch out still)
That is awesome! Thanks for sharing! My arrow weight will be distributed differently but the overall weight will be about the same. I may even get 570 grains to tune ok.
Anyways, nice bull!
Dustin-
Are you hoping for an LE tag or an OTC for a bull?
I spent the last couple years getting my equipment ready for an elk. I could bore you with what I shoot, but reality is I have no idea how it will perform on an elk. It seems to repel them :)
Best of luck this fall. If you need some quads with boots to help get one out, let me know.I think I am close enough to you.
Enjoy the journey!