Just curious as to the flattest shooting bows you guys have had the chance to shoot. Looking for one mostly for 3d shooting but would probaly hunt with it as well. Thanks guys!
I've never owned a bow that I'd consider flat shooting. Even compounds with heavy draw weight have lousy trajectory in my opinion. Higher draw weight and or lighter arrows will flatten it some at hunting distances, but a bow, especially the ones we shoot, aren't going to shoot very flat. Again just my opinion.
Bob
Big Foot Flatliner
Sarrels Blue Ridge
I haven't clocked these two versus others I have shot,but they sure seem to spit an arrow out there.
As stated above, depends on what is considered flat shooting.
The bows that I have shot with my perceived least amount of arch in there trajectory, would have to be, Palmer double carbon recurve and, Morrison Shawnee LB with double carbon foam limbs.
Fox Breed. Quiet too.
Possumjon,
I achieved a "flat" trajectory by dropping arrow weight, respectively.
I was shooting around a 570 grain (10.4gpp) arrow out of a #55 bow. I dropped down to 485 (8.8 gpp) and the results blew my mind. I am still shooting a 485 grain arrow and it flies MUCH MUCH flatter(faster) than my previous arrows.
To achieve a "flat" trajectory, I would go with somewhere between an 8-9 gpp arrow and i think you'll be very pleased.
I would think distance would enter into the equation. Out to 20 yards or so, a bow shoots pretty flat, but at 25 yards, what does it do? Because I shoot heavy arrows, out to 20 yards, I'm good, but past that, mine drop like at a stone.
Quality hybrid or recurve with 8-9 gpp. Nough said. There are a number of bows that do well with 10 gpp. Java Man, Leon Stewart, Whippenstick, Rose Oak. Sarrels, Cari-bow, Bob Lee, Habu, Fox, Schafer, Big Jim, Northern Mist, Zipper, Morrison. And others.
My kanati was flattest shooter I ever owned.
What really makes a big difference in speed is arrow weight,here people use down to 5 gpp for 3D
QuoteOriginally posted by SELFBOW19953:
I would think distance would enter into the equation. Out to 20 yards or so, a bow shoots pretty flat, but at 25 yards, what does it do? Because I shoot heavy arrows, out to 20 yards, I'm good, but past that, mine drop like at a stone.
That's what I was getting at, love my bow out to 20 but drops like a stone after 25. Most 3d courses seem to be long even at traditional stakes, closer to 27+ yards. Just looking for an edge. With hunting I wouldn't shoot that far but was wanting an edge in target shooting. I'll try arrow weight/ heavier bow too. I was looking at the flatliner lately, just wanted others opinions before I pull the trigger
the fastest bow design possible built in the heaviest weight that can be pulled now fit that with the most skinniest string that would safely work,,,, now find the lightest arrows possible in the correct spine with the smallest fletch possible,,,,,, Now that should be a pretty flat shooting bow right there,, it might sound like a crossbow when shot but it will be pretty flat.
Now if its a bow I have owned, by far for me it was the Palmer Classic when I shot 2114 arrows, I won many trophys because I just had to point the bow @ 20yds a fool could shoot it......but I kept being told the skinnier walled aluminums would fail on big game so I bumped to 2016's then to heritage carbons ending up with 560gr heritage from a 50# bow not as flat as the 2114's that's for sure,, but that was the flattest I personally witnessed all due to the lighter arrows though.
My flattest is my Mark Daniel prototype with 15+gpp. Beast of a bow being 80#36.
That man can build a bow.
Flattest was a Sasquatch long bow
This borders on the subjective to me, but I'll play. So many variables come into play. many different bows using the same exact arrow my top bow for "flattest shooter" would be the Big Foot Flatliner .
I shoot a Shrew, go figure. Flattest, fastest means nothing to me anymore. Once you have the basic mechanics of form and execution; the bow you can pick up cold and put an arrow right where you're looking has done more for my confidence than any other factor.
Border Covert Hunter
A bit of an oxymoron - flat shooting bow. We shoot eggs at 100 yds with a .22LR and small chicken silhouettes at 200 yds. I have to come up 85 clicks on my scope from the 100 yd zero to 200 yds. That's with a bullet flying roughly 1050 fps.
Then we start talking about an arrow flying 200 fps or less? Some bow/arrow combinations shoot flatter than others, but flat? No way.
This one is american made and goes toe to toe with Borders fastest bow.... Its about a 1/3 the price too.
http://www.tradarcher.com/BigFootReview/bigfoot_review.html
My best has been the Zipper Nitros .Have 2 shooting in the 190's.1 is 60@28 the other is 63@28.I draw 29" and shoot a 750 gr. arrow out of both.My Morrisons, Shrews or Schafers could not keep up.VVery flat shooting!
Ain't no such thing. It's called gravity.
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
Ain't no such thing. It's called gravity.
:laughing: Ain't that the cold hard truth!!!! :laughing:
Flattest shooting is just another way of saying fast(est). I like A&H ACSs and Morrison Shawnee longbows for speed/flat shooting.
The flattest shooting bow I've shot isn't even the fastest(thru a chrono). You ask how could that be?
There are a lot of bows out there that will produce impressive chrono#'s at 6 feet but there also bows that are easier to shoot bare shaft. A bow that is easiest to achieve constant bare shaft flight at any range, will not only be more accurate but will have better down range performance. Of curious, this is only my opinion.
A quote, "With a compound, everyone knows that the arrow doesn't get up to top speed until it's about twenty yards out." That would be the flattest shooting bow, one where the arrow rapidly increases in speed on its way out to the target. Can a bow that is the fastest with ten grains per pound hold up to shooting a very light arrow? If it cannot, perhaps a bow that can shoot five grains per pound and not fly apart just might shoot the fastest arrow.
Quote"With a compound, everyone knows that the arrow doesn't get up to top speed until it's about twenty yards out."
Where did you come up with this quote Pavan? it's almost laughable.... as soon as an arrow leaves the string it starts to decelerate unless you got little rocket boosters built into your shafts...... Boy i'd like to have some of those arrows.
For those of you who say that their is no such thing as a flat shooting bow, try taking a low preload string follow bow shooting 150-160 FPS and try shooting through 6" holes in vine maple..... Then shoot one at 190-200 FPS through the same tight windows.... There is a HUGE difference in trajectory even at short yardage......
If 3D is your main focus, hunting next I would look at the ILF rigs being offered. KirkII's bow is a top contender in that category. lately I have been playing with an Hoyt Excel riser and TT limbs. It is 60# at 28in. Shooting my Gt 55/75's weighting 520 grains it shoots flatter than anything I got.
hmm my post is missing let me try this again. My warf is smoking fast with trad tech long bow limbs and a 9gg arrow.
I recently received one of Kirk's Flatliner bows and I can tell you it spits out an arrow. My bow is 48# @ 28 and I draw about 27 3/4. I shoot 9.7 gpp arrows and am a gap shooter. My gaps are 2" at the tip at 20 yards, lollipop at 25 and point on at 30. That's a pretty close variation and makes a huge difference on the 3D range if you misjudge yardage. It turns shooting a 30 yard target that you think is 25 yards from a total miss to an 8 on a larger target like an elk. I've shot Fedora recurves for years and as anyone can tell you, they are no slouch in the speed department but I never had a bow that made me look like I know what I'm doing like my Flatliner does. It's quiet, super smooth on the draw and plenty fast. Can't say enough good things about Kirk's bows. Keep in mind guys, he asked for the flattest shooting bow, not a flat shooting bow. There's a difference.
To me what I consider flat shooting is the distance I can look at what I want to hit and with my peripheral vision point the front part of my arrow at it (the way I see it with my anchor, etc.) and the arrow hits it.
My Covert Hunter and Big Foot Sasquatch T/D recurves are the fastest and flattest shooting bows I've shot.
You can see my bow if you're interested on Bigfoot's Facebook page. Scroll down 4 bows to the Black Walnut Flatliner dated December 25, 2014.
Kirk, I listened to that being discussed around an early version chronograph at a field shoot in the 70s. There was confusion about how could a Black Widow recurve and a Deathmaster recurve have a bigger number than their wheelie bows. The other one that I don't quite believe is that 'fast only makes you miss faster'. I like fast bows as much as anyone, but the fastest bow for one draw and set-up may not be the fastest bow for someone else. With 27" and less draw lengths, like mine, arrow speed is important and fastest is not going happen. For 3d shooting a bow designed to shoot arrows that do not need to plow through a rhino and at a lighter draw weight with possibly a less than a 30" draw, should be a consideration. I would think some adjustments could be designed into the bow to match those priorities for the individual.
Gravity is constant. So the least amount of time an arrow takes to get to the target, the less it will drop. Unless you are shooting straight up or down of course. :D
If you shoot an arrow perfectly horizontal or drop an arrow from the same height they will both hit the ground in the same amount of time.
A so called "flat shooting bow" will send that arrow a longer distance until it lands. All arrows travel in an arc and begin slowing immediately after the string leaves the nock.
So what we are really talking about is bow efficiency, launching a hunting weight arrow with an acceptable amount of trajectory. There is no such thing as a flat shooting bow.
As Boomerang said "Gravity is constant. So the least amount of time an arrow takes to get to the target, the less it will drop."
Bows that stack, not smooth throughout their cycle, are going to have a shorter muscle area of thrust. So all things being equal, the bow that is smooth out to your draw, is going to shoot a flatter trajectory. So, the comments that pounds at your draw weight is all that matters are missing an important piece of the equation. Dakota bows are rarely mentioned here, but are at the top of the list. Add in is the bow stable, fast at the draw weight and quiet, and quiet, and few compare. I have the affliction that so many bow brothers have, so have owned them all at one time or another.
A&H.
"Flat" is an illusion. Every bow of every type exists in the same gravity-bound planet where an arrow, once off the rest, accelerates downward at approx 32 FPS per second less air resistance. That being said, the best creator of the illusion I have ever shot was a 1962 Bear Polar that would tolerate as little as 7.5 gpp with a good release and with a properly matched spine, those light arrows just rocketed off that bow like they were being shot with a nail gun.
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
If you shoot an arrow perfectly horizontal or drop an arrow from the same height they will both hit the ground in the same amount of time.
A so called "flat shooting bow" will send that arrow a longer distance until it lands. All arrows travel in an arc and begin slowing immediately after the string leaves the nock.
So what we are really talking about is bow efficiency, launching a hunting weight arrow with an acceptable amount of trajectory. There is no such thing as a flat shooting bow.
As Boomerang said "Gravity is constant. So the least amount of time an arrow takes to get to the target, the less it will drop."
Maybe we should say a "Flatter" shooting bow then.
Faster is flatter.....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Drawings/Trajectory_1.gif) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Drawings/Trajectory_1.gif.html)
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
If you shoot an arrow perfectly horizontal or drop an arrow from the same height they will both hit the ground in the same amount of time.
A so called "flat shooting bow" will send that arrow a longer distance until it lands. All arrows travel in an arc and begin slowing immediately after the string leaves the nock.
So what we are really talking about is bow efficiency, launching a hunting weight arrow with an acceptable amount of trajectory. There is no such thing as a flat shooting bow.
As Boomerang said "Gravity is constant. So the least amount of time an arrow takes to get to the target, the less it will drop."
Actually an arrow starts loosing speed as soon as it leaves the string, but it doesn't start dropping until it reaches the apex of the arch.
Maybe we should say a "Flatter" shooting bow rather that using the word flat.
Faster is flatter.....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Drawings/Trajectory_1.gif) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Drawings/Trajectory_1.gif.html) [/b]
A picture is worth a thousand words Bro. Kirk. Nice and instructive.
Depending on the distance and size of the target the first diagram shows that at the distance being shown that you could overshoot the target or undershoot the target depending on your ability to range. Target 2 shows a strong chance of getting a kill through the entire range of the diagram with much less chance of overshooting or undershooting the target or game animal.
God bless, Steve
Arrow weight and FOC. I am an experienced 3D shooter. All my arrows are between the 9 and 10 gpp. I use 100 grains fieldtips, giving me a FOC around the 10 procent.
I can hit repeadly targets at 55 yards. I am deadly between the 10 and 35 yards. I trained and experimented a LOT for that. Setting up five different targets between the 15 and 55 yards. Getting a thrill when I shoot perfect, hitting all different targets with my first arrow :) but that doesn't happen every day :( bad form and/or release are always waiting for a chance... The slightest mistake will be magnified at 50 yards...
I think FOC will show after 20 to 30 yards, dependant on how high your FOC actually is. Till 20 yards, different FOC's won't show much difference.
If I would shoot at 50 yards with a 30% FOC arrow however, it would drop like a rock. 10% FOC however, gives me a nice flat trajectory.
Modern hybrids act fine, but any good traditional recurve will do fine too.
For my Caribow Peregrine I use woodies, for my three pce Whippenstick Phoenix semi-static recurve I use carbons. Both arrows are around the 9.5 gpp and have a FOC around the 10% so I can switch very easily. I only need a few shots to get tuned in. Both arrows show the same trajectory, but the woodies seem the be more forgiven and less nervous. But in the end I shoot both set-ups equally wel.
I don't go under 9 gpp. That makes your arrows too nervous and unforgiven and besides that, it shortens the lifespan of your bows.
There is always a balance between speed and stability. The lighter the arrow, the more speed, thus a flatter trajectory, but the more unforgiven. You need some time to find that magic set-up that works for you.
Isn't our hobby wonderful?
My five cents...
I get 188 fps out of mine with 8 grains/#.
I have some lighter arrows that hit 198 fps, but they weight 40 grains less and are lighter than I wish to go for hunting.
In the traditional world, 20 fps separates "Slow" bows from "fast" ones.
The fastest limbs I have shot to date are T.T. Carbon Extremes. However, I have a set of used Border Hex 6 S coming. I suspect that they will be a bit faster than my current limbs, even though projected draw weight is less.
The two 'flattest' I have owned are Bigfoot's, the Stealth(very similar to the flatliner model) and the SS that really smokes an arrow and is VERY stable to shoot. The border hex5 ilf I had were quick also until they blew up. Quote from Kirk during my SS build. " I decided to go run it through the chrono and see what she's got. I've got a ragged old shop string with Cat whiskers on it and put her on the shooting machine with a 493 grain arrow, and got 203 fps out of it....that's 9.48 gpp bro"
Question for Kirk at Bigfoot,I have read a non ILF bow built by the same bowyer will out perform an ILF bow (same model/limbs) as the bowyer can maximize the efficiency. Is this true with the SS ILF and SS models?
Kirkll
Great diagram!
We all try to achieve a balance between speed, stability, and acceptable trajectory (arc). I could shoot heavier arrows but the arc becomes too great for any target past 25yd. Shooting without sights requires something less than rainbow flight.
My arrows all weigh close to 9 grains per pound of draw wt. for each bow I have. I see a similar arc from bow to bow and don't have much problem switching bows.
I've owned many bows over the years, including customs. Out of all of them, the Martin Hunter I bought new in 1987 was probably the flattest shooting bow.
Habu, Sasquatch, EW, Zipper - best i have seen with a real weight arrow. Tested a lot of bows and i still have ALL of these!!
speed is for compounds and crossbows, let's keep the "ARCH" in archery...! learn your bows cast and let er' rip..
I realise Possumjon's question was asked regarding 3D, and I don't want to change the direction of this thread, but I'm reminded of when I switched to a compound for a couple years in the 80's. The biggest selling point for me was the increased speed and the benefits that I thought came with it. The biggest was being able to shoot those animals that were on the border, or farther, than I thought was ethical with traditional bows. What I didn't take into consideration, and I should have known better, was even at the faster speeds, the extended ranges gave an animal more time to move before the arrow reached them. And we all know that it doesn't take much movement on an animals part to turn a good shot into a miss, or worse. I've never shot a round of 3D in my life, but I know that speed/flatter trajectory is a help in shooting at longer ranges. But for hunting, I'm perfectly happy with a slower arrow and being really picky with the shots I take.
Bob
QuoteOriginally posted by Possumjon:
Just curious as to the flattest shooting bows you guys have had the chance to shoot. Looking for one mostly for 3d shooting but would probaly hunt with it as well. Thanks guys!
I thought i'd reintroduce the original question here to keep us getting to side tracked.
Arrow speed and trajectory go hand in hand, and 3D is a great way to really appreciate a flatter shooting bow.... Once you become accustom to a flatter trajectory, your scores will definitely go up on a 3D course.
Depending on your hunting style, it can make a big difference on your success rate too. Being a bowyer i get an opportunity to shoot a lot of different bows all the time. I have hunting bows in the 55-57# range that i prefer to hunt elk with, and i have a couple lighter draw weight bows that i prefer to shoot 3D and hunt small game or deer with that is about 47#...... The key to using both of these bows and shooting well is keeping the trajectory the same..... I set up my 3D bow shooting about 10- 10.5 gpp so i can match the same speed as my heavier weight elk bow..... Both of these bows shoot very close to 200 FPS with good hunting weight shafts. the difference is that the 47# bow runs 470- 500 grain shafts and my heavier bow runs 578 grain shafts.
Oh sure.... i could drop my arrow weight on my 3D bow down to 8.5 gpp and shoot well over 200 FPS, but lighter weight shafts are not quite as forgiving to slight deflection on grass or leaves, or wind either. slight imperfections on release or exact anchor point will amplify with lighter weight shafts too....
The key is finding a balance of forgiveness and speed to match your skill level and still get the flatter trajectory. That's why i try and get the most power and smoothness i can get out of all the bows i build so i can provide the best of both worlds for my customers.
Thanks for all the input guys, I think I've made my decision, Kirk you'll have my deposit on Thursday if all goes well! Now I've gotta decide on length lol
Heavy bow and the lightest arrow that will safely shoot out of it.