Okay everyone, bare shaft tuning is driving me insane. I just got a new PSA and it draws 59@30. I draw around 30.5-31", so I draw around 60-61lbs. Everything I try to shoot shows weak. I've shot from 400 spine all the way down to 260 and 250 spine arrows trying to get something to bare shaft straight.
I start full length, and cut them down...change tip weights...insert weights.....build the shelf out...etc...
I usually find myself having to go much stiffer than others with my longer draw, but this is the heaviest bow I've tried to bare shaft tune.
Does anybody out there shoot this set up? What arrow combo works for you?
What kind of weight are you putting up front? I shoot PSA 55# @ 31.5". Heritage 350s with 270gr up front has worked well.
I haven't gone that heavy. I've used everywhere from 175-250 on axis 340's, 300's, and 260's. I tried some CX 350's with about 200 on the front, but didn't go any heavier. They were way weak.
57@30 and I shoot ce350's at 31.5 bop and 250 up front but they are a little weak. Add a wrap under your fletch. Stu's says it will stiffen the arrow because of nock weight. I know that a fmj at 30.5 with 250 up ftont is stiff from the same bow. Cut too center
57@28 Im drawing 29.5
Axis trads 75 gr insert 15 gr footing +200 gr fp cut to 30 1/8 shooting perfectly for me.
TallTines recurve
I had a 60@30 r/d bow that I pulled to a touch over 31". I shot Goldtip 7595s full length, with a 100 grain insert and a 175 grain point. I think they weighed around 660 grains. That setup bare shafted like a lazer.
If you can't get any of those setups to show stiff, it's a form issue. You might be torquing the string, or the bow, or your nocks could be too tight. Whatever it is, something is amiss.
All of my bows are in the 60-62# range at my draw 31,5"
On bows with deep past center cut window ( like your PSA) i use .300 beman pro hunter shafts full lenght (32,5") and point weight 300 gr+ insert
On the ones cut to center i use .340 or 400 32" gold tip shafts (velocity or regular hunter) with more or less same point weight. (275-300)
Becarefull of false weak readings when bare shaft tuning with a stiff shaft bouncing out on strike plate.
Check these out, real stiff, tapered, and pricey, http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/GrizzlyStik-Momentum-U-FOC-175-Shafts-6-Pack-P396C59.aspx
I had an earlier version, the safari shaft, very stiff
More than likely you are getting false readings off of the stiffest shafts.
That bow being cut 3/16" past center will need a stiffer shaft than other bows not cut so deeply, but not the 200 spine.
Do you shoot three under? if so, do you have string nocks above and below the arrow?
Try building the side plate out some. The small diameter shafts can give you fits on that deep of a sight window. It is conceivable that instead of being center shot, it is actually past center shot and a nightmare to tune.
If you build out the sight window and things start getting better, than it should prove that the shafts are truly too weak, or you were shooting past center shot.
I know that most get the tunnel vision that says for a right handed shooter ...nock left is weak and nock right is stiff but If the arrow is too stiff and hits the side plate or shelf, it will likely show too weak. If the nock point is too low, it will hit shelf and can show too weak. If arrow nocks are too tight, it can show weak. If arrow is shot from a past center cut bow, it can show too weak. Without a nock point below the arrow for a three under shooter, it can show just about anything.
Are ya getting my drift here?
I shoot a full length 300 spine arrow out of a 1/8" cut past center bow with 311 g up front. I draw right at 32" and when I am "right", I can shoot that shaft at 25 yards and it flys perfectly, but it never ever flys stiff...If I short draw, it flys weak (I'm apparently hitting the bow with a short draw).
Going with lighter points will only cause the arrow to straighten out and appear to fly true, but will really just make it look better but it will never come back around to line of sight.
Lots of things to take in...give me a call if I can be of assistance.
BigJim
Big Jim, thanks for the help. I shoot split and always put a serving nock above and below. You bring up a good point. I noticed that building the shelf out doesnt seem to make a lot of difference with these 260 shafts. Would that indicate that the shafts are simply too stiff? So why can I take a full length 300 shaft and start cutting it down and it never straightens out?
I have always been able to bare shaft my bows without too many issues. I'm to the point now where I'm ready to start at square one again. I may just give you a call tomorrow.
I'm right there and need a .300 spine with no more than around 200gr up front unless I build out the riser and use a smaller diameter arrow. It's really difficult to tune arrows in that ball field your in. I am totally empathetic with you. I think your bow might even be more center cut than mine. I added quite a thick piece of leather and added seal skin on top of that to the riser, which allowed me to shoot as low as .400 spine in smaller diameter like a GT Kinetic and .340 spine in standard diameter.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/wachatz/FB_IMG_1413041658707_zpscxkkvruo.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/wachatz/media/FB_IMG_1413041658707_zpscxkkvruo.jpg.html)
Old Goat,
Thanks for that pic. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this.
The one thing you have not mentioned is what string material you are using...shooting similar specs to yours I have chosen to shoot B50 strings with some bows so that weaker shafts will bareshaft tune...still I have had success tuning full length 250 spine Dangerous Games with a BCY-X string as well...I only attempt to bareshaft tune when my form is at its best...bareshafts are very touchy with even a bit of a sloppy release and follow through
DDave
I have to shoot 300 spines and I have a similar poundage and same draw length
Thanks for all the comments. I'll probably twist up a 14 strand B-50 tonight and see what kind of reaction I get. I've been shooting a D-97 string until now.
No reason why you can't make it happen with a fast flite string. Your specs are not so extreme, you just haven't found the right combination and something is causing a false reading.
I wonder if you are drawing to your normal draw length? I know that everyone says yes to this, but my experience is that when going up in weight (yes, even if you can handle the weight) will cause you to shorten your draw length a bit.
Most every day I shoot 30-50 shots from my 66lb LB and part of my draw/shoot routine is to watch the tip of my arrow until I hit anchor and then move my attention to "burning a hole". I am very comfortable with this weight and actually a bit lighter than years past.
BUT, when I shoot my 55lb bow, I have noticed that even when I do everything else the same, I will typically have the point come right back to the edge of the riser...an additional 1/2"- 1" more draw without making any other adjustment.
Happy to help, but I can't remember from one post to another what I thought or said without re reading.
Thanks, bigjim
Thought I'd give anyone who cares an update on this. I ended up cutting down a 340 axis trad as short as I could get it, then with a 50 grain insert and 200 grain tip it was still slightly weak, but fletched shafts with a cutthroat were flying pretty well. I shot a couple deer with this set up during the season.
Yesterday I decided to revisit the tuning issue during the break between turkey and deer seasons. I was still getting bare shaft weak, and tried various combinations of arrows an tip weight. I finally just put a bear weather rest on it to see what it would do. Oddly enough, shafts that were weak (but should have been stiff) now became stiff. The arrows I had been using now bare shafted perfectly.
Despite the fact that I have almost always found it easier to get good arrow flight off a rest, I think the fact that a bear weather rest sticks out slightly further than the toothpick I had been using behind the strike plate put the skinnier shaft closer to center shot. This really seemed to clean up some tuning issues.
For the record, I prefer to shoot off the shelf. So I guess my next step at some point will be to build the shelf out closer to where the rest put it, and maybe I can go back to shooting off the shelf.
Maybe this will help someone else down the line.
Bottom line as I see it, skinny shafts, long draw, and a deeply cut riser creates a nightmare for tuning.
I have to shoot 2419 shafts out of my 68# @ 31 PMA. I shoot off a rest, also. But I was surprised at how stiff a setup I needed. Did you ever talk to the guys at Black Widow? They helped me out a lot with bareshaft tuning my Widows. They did tell me that a long draw really messes with spine and tuning.
Yeah, they initially helped me bare shaft when I went to pick up the bow. We came up with some very stiff old gold tip big game 100's and managed to get them to fly pretty good. I still have about a dozen of them, that I'll likely never shoot. I just prefer the skinnier axis or FMJ shafts, and have shot them for the last couple of years with good results on game.
I don't think gold tip even makes the big game 100 shaft anymore.
QuoteOriginally posted by Arctic Hunter:
... Bottom line as I see it, skinny shafts, long draw, and a deeply cut riser creates a nightmare for tuning.
You are saying a mouthful right there!
Thom
This thread has been great!
Tomorrow I will put on some 300grain(or more) tips and see how them bare shafts fly. Its been real frustrating.
My gosh! Sounds just like my post. See tuning new Predator.
Mine is 60-61 @31" and I had a hell of a time coming from a BW.
It takes a different grip. The BW was a tight grip more on the side.
The Predator needed an almost open hand. I'm shooting both with a high wrist.
I could not gat any arrow to do anything but fly nock left. Now I have perfect flight.
I'll try to find the link.
Tedd
Here is the link -
Move your grip around. I can't explain it how to grip differently.
I really had a hard time with this one. I just could not get it to work and had no explanation. But it shoots incredibly well now. I think I will sell my last widow.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=148236
Ted,
Thanks for the link.I remember your thread and watched it pretty closely. I even posted on it.
I pulled the weather rest off this evening. I just prefer to shoot off the shelf. I put two layers of scotch extreme mounting tape (two sided) on the strike plate, then put a tooth pick on it and covered it with calf hair. It actually seemed to shoot pretty well with the 340 axis/50 grain insert/200 grain tip. Maybe just a hair weak, but I can probably live with it or adjust the string silencers slightly to fix that.
It's not quite built out as far as the weather rest had it, but like I said I think I can make it work. And it won't take as long to get my brain programmed to pull the arrows back to center.
Tuning is fun...but this has been a headache. I will say I've learned a lot. Thanks in large part to guys on here. I hope they keep making these arrows so I don't have to do this again, lol.