It seems like all of the great archers/hunters shot/shoot heavy bows, at least at some point in their lives. Any ideas as to why?
I was just wondering cause it seems like a common theme with most all of them. I mean Howard Hill, Saxton Pope, Art Young, Fred Bear, Paul Shafer, Ron LaClair, Byron Ferguson, etc etc. I just wonder is it because of the flatter trajectory afforded by the draw weight, or just being naturally strong and/or having natural athletic ability that gives them the edge. Or ,on the other hand,is it due to visual acuity? Hand eye coordination? What gives them the edge?
I am FAR from one of the greatest archers ever, But my bows right now are 83# and 86# @ 29.5". I have a strong back and a piss poor release. I cannot shoot a bow under about 65# worth a crap. 80+ I win shoots and kill critters. I'm not saying Hill, Bear, etc. had release issues but a bow that basically releases itself is one less thing to worry about
Josh
CaptainCaveman has a valid point.
First of all I think they shot them because they had the physical strength to do so.
secondly a heavier bow shoots an arrow flatter requiring less judgement in trajectory although Hill used an indirect aiming system.
I personally don't think release had anything to do with it. I can demonstrate to anyone how the string from a 20 pound bow will rip cleanly from your fingers. Not being able to release cleanly is a mental "form" problem and it happens with guys shooting 45#ers or 80#ers, the same as target panic has nothing to do with the weight of the bow. Olympic archers, the most accurate archers of all don't shoot 80# bows because their mechanics are good.
Most of us do not have the time to put in practicing enough to shot a heavy bow. If we made a living shooting a bow and could see the advantages it give us we would all like to shoot a heavier bow. Most of the people we think of as great archers have even greater Agents selling them to the puplic.
I think captaincaveman might be right, Byron has stated this for his main reason for shooting heavier poundage, I shoot a heavier bow for this reason and they will shoot heavy arrows alittle flatter, but also I believe with training lighter poundage bows can be released smoothly, I also feel that bows being built today are far superior to bows from yesteryear, Heck they are obtaining fps from 45# bows today that come close to 85# bows from yesterday, I stay somewhere in the middle and shoot 68 to 72#, but then there is Howard Hill that still today few if any can match. All I know is I can,t blame my bow, must be the arrows.
Ihave found that a bow is like a hat, you need one that fits you.A light bow may not be best for some archers. People that can pull a heavy draw bow back will seek their maximum limit with no ill effect. The same is true with the people that can't.In my younger days I used a 72# draw bow , I felt comfortable with this weight but had shot 80# which was a bit much for me.I No longer can handle these weights. 55# is now all I can handle. I also found that when I shot bows of low poundage my release was not the best and my accuracy suffered.As Mickey mentioned Olympic archers shoot low poundage but they also shoot a static style which I find almost useless in a hunting situation. I would not compare the two as Olympic archers are for the most part one dimensional.
Howard Hill, Always said,shoot the heavest bow you can shoot....
I would agree with that Mike only add "accurately and repeatedly".
Having lived in S. California for a time and having met many old timers from the days of Howard Hill it was explained to me in a couple of ways. First, most of the archers of that era were hard working men and could shoot the heavier bows. Another reason was peer presure (everyone shot them so I should shoot them). A more practical reason has been mentioned above and that is that while hunting you are not shooting arrow after arrow so pulling a bow a couple of times at stumps and then a couple of times at deer (with long breaks in between) was not physically tiring and it gave you a flat trajectory. Prior to the laminates, a heavier wt. bow was also tougher in the woods. For evidence of this just look at the rawhide backed bows that Pope used in Alaska and elsewhere. He used his bows as wading sticks and hiking sticks while still using it to shoot tough animals. These bows had to take a beating and keep on ticking as the saying goes. But another thing is that these guys just plain shot a lot more than some archers do today and because of that they were physically fit to shoot the heavy stuff.
Now, I am not a fred bear expert but I have read him quoted as saying his personal favorite bow wt. was 60 pounds. Chester Stevenson, the Ole Bowhunter, shot the real heavy stuff but he settled on a personal favorite bow length of 64 inches with a favorite wt. of around 62-64 pounds at this draw.....and this guy had the gear to prove he had experimented with it all in all the right circumstances.
Last point I would add here is to just examine your own experience. When out stump shooting you have a tendancey, if you do it enough, to learn to shoot with a faster pace to your shooting. Shooting mostly targets all the time you have a tendancy to hold longer which is tougher to do with a heavy bow. Even Howard had a favorit bow just for shooting tournaments, it was 65 lbs rather than his normal 85 lbs, because shooting that heavy wt. during a 28 target round would really exhaust you. Whatever you do have fun with it.
Ferret....
I was thinking the same as you, butt those wurds are long....and hard to spell.... :knothead:
Those 'yesteryear' bows were pretty darned good even compared to todays best. Pound for pound bows I have from the forties and fifties will be about 15-20 fps slower slower than my ACS, and one half to one third of that gain is on on account of better strings on todays bows.
The older I get, the more I appreciate lighter weight bows! I have also discovered that the trajectory is not much of a factor at the ranges I shoot. The timber I hunt makes 20 yards a long shot...you just can't see much beyond that. Fifteen yards is about the norm for our LONGEST shots. At that range, I don't need to beat myself up with a heavy bow. How far the arrow buries itself into the ground after passing through the deer really doesn't matter.
I would agree that Bear, Pope and Young and the like didn't have to shoot that many shots, so managing heavy bows was easier for them. Exhibition shooters like Hill and Ferguson shoot LOTS of arrows with heavy bows. I am in awe of those guys. I am sure a fast, flat trajectory is critical to what they do, but shooting a 70 pound bow every day would have to wear on the joints, tendons, etc. Being able to do that...and hit what they shoot at...is what makes them so special!
I saw Hil quoted as saying that one of his reasons for accuracy WAS the heavy bow. I disagree that the reasons some of them shot heavy bows was they didn't shoot that much, I think just the opposite. You really don't gain much in tradjectory with a heavy bow, since you also end up with heavier arrows, BUT you do end up with better penetration and THAT is why MANY very experienced hunters shoot heavier bows. Most of the time I shoot bows in the mid 60's range, thats because most of the time I hunt deer and pigs and that is a plenty heavy bow for them, BUT if you hunt bigger game as all those guys did, it just is better to use a bigger bow. I can shoot my 80 or 85# bows just as well as the 65#, just not as many times in a row, so what I don't need to, I don't target shoot with them, targets only need the arrow to stick in them, not go all the way through!
Rick is correct, no difference in trajectory if you are shooitng say 9gpp. out of a 40# bow or a 75# bow of the same design or 10gpp or 14gpp. for that matter. I shot them for a lot of years due to I got a much better release with them, I have got bad shoulders now, real bad and went to 50-55# bows and have worked on my realease and I am happy with it. If I were to hunt African game, I would than shoot 75-85#s for a short period to allow me hunt some of those big critters, but here in North America 55#s will kill anything on this continent. Shawn
if you have good form, you should have not problems shooting a lighter bow. by going to heaver weight it may correct you release, but I do not see how. there is no reason to shoot 70 plus pound unless your going to Africa. but what ever make you happy. Olympic archers can shoot out to 90 meter, that is good/great forum and that is all that matters since that is how you get a repeatable shot. :)
Bowhunting shot situations and olympic/field archery are very differnet types of shooting circumstances. If you have "Hunting the Hard Way" by Mr. Hill and are so inclined reread Pages 83-96. It rings true today, as it did when he pinned the words so many moons ago. At least in my bowhunting experiences.
Longbows & Short Shots,
Jeff
"there is no reason to shoot 70 plus pound unless your going to Africa."
What? what a ridiculous statement.
Other than physical limitations of the bow user give me a reason to NOT shoot a 70+ pound bow.
Richie,
I could shoot squirrels with my .44 Magnum, but they get just as dead with a .22, and I don't have to deal with the noise and recoil on every shot.
That's not even a great comparison, since my 55 pound bow will shoot through any critter available on this continent and so will a 70 pound bow and since there is no difference in trajectory with equal grains/pound arrows, I can give several reasons not to shoot a 70+ pound bow.
1. They are harder to draw and hold steady.
2. They are harder on the joints (esp. for us older guys).
3. They ruin my broadheads when they hit rocks, trees, etc. AFTER going through what I am shooting at.
4. Most importantly...I don't have one! :rolleyes: :D
Wow! this has really taken a turn.I was just wondering about the correlation between noteworthy archers past and present(mostly past) and heavy bows. Not a heavy vs light debate.
A lot has been answered, except the hand eye coordination/visual acuity part(really another question altogether I know). The only reason I added that on there is because I heard a theory(for lack of a better word) once about how alot of the great baseball pitchers had excellent visual acuity,better than 20/20 like 20/15 or even 20/10. So I wondered if that sort of thing would make a difference in shooting ability too.
The Ferret has it right! Weight has nothing to do with the release. Yes heavier weights naturally pull from the fingers faster but distorting the release up shot execution is what throws a shot off. Fix your form and shot execution....then you can shoot any bow in any situation, hunting, 3-D, olympics, etc...no matter what weight you choose
Reffering to the original question. I find that most hunters use heavier weights for the obvious hunting advantages and since repetitive shooting isnt the case. Most of the well know target archers of the past use bows that were more comfortable, and allowed good form while shooting many shots. I think it is simple as that, really no mystery.
30 coupe,
"Other than physical limitations of the bow user"
Did you not see that?
That covers 1. and 2.
As for 3., I believe that I would have no problem ruining a broadhead with a lighter than 70 lb. bow by hitting rocks and trees just like with a heavy bow.
As for 4. That is my point exactly.
It's funny how it is always the guys that can't pull a heavy bow and don't have a heavy bow that say, "You shouldn't pull bows that heavy" or there is no need to use a bow that heavy".
You could kill a deer with 35 lb. bow. Why use a 55 lber? Because you can and there is no reason not to.
Same for people using 70 lbers. They can and why not?
Again, If you can, why not?
I shoot heavy bows. I have for the last 40 years. Currently, I am shooting 74-76 pounds at my 64 years of age. I am also VERY short, so to equate me to someone 6 feet tall, my bows are even heavier as a percentage of body mass and muscle mass.
Still...I shoot every day. The 75 pounds allows me to shoot a heavy shaft FAST! I hunt both Cape and Water Buffalo and for those animals, you need a heavy bow and an extremely heavy shaft...960 grains for me.
Heck, I shoot gophers, Turkey, Deer, Goats, etc. with that weight and the performance is flawless.
When I hunted with Paul Schafer, he was shooting 94 pounds!!! But then, he was HUGE in the muscle department. That bow was actually COMFORTABLE for him...he could shoot it all day.
Too Short
Richie, it is not just guys who cannot do it. i do not know if ya have ever saw me, but I can pull and shoot 100# bows. My shoulders are bad and I still can do it. I just do not see the need. I kill just as dead with 50#s as I once did with 75-80#s. To each his own. Shawn
I just watched a CD last night from Bear Archery that included an interview Fred did in 1986 where he explained his shooting style and choice of draw weight. He said he was a self-taught archer and developed many bad habits, that he might not have had with some better instructions early on. He claimed his release problems were cured by using what he called the "snap-shooting method" and by shooting a heavy bow (65#) to help with his release problems.
I read in Chet Steven's book that he found he could always shoot much more accurately with the heaviest bow he could draw to anchor. As he got older and couldn't pull the heavy weights his accuracy suffered as well.
I would guess the old timers had many reasons for shooting heavier equipment than is the norm today, but release issues were definately a consideration with some of them.
Yep...heavy weight helped caused the snap shooting for the "icons" back then and still holds true today. Get a bow you can handle. To many folks are looking for that magic bow with all the answers via weight,speed etc. Learn to shoot correctly...better accuracy will then prevail.
What I am NOT saying is "If you can pull a 70 lb bow, you should"
What I AM saying is "If you can pull a 70 lb. bow how and why can someone ELSE think to themselves and say "There is no reason for someone to shoot a 70 plus lb. bow unles they are going to Africa".
I am also saying that statement usually comes from people who cannot use heavy bows due to physical limitations, but yet at the same time they find reasons why others shouldn't use them.
Just kinda of funny to me.
BamBooBender put my name in there with some pretty heavy hitters. (no pun intended) It's true I shot some heavy bows in past years and I'll try to explain why. When I decided I wanted a Howard Hill longbow back in the 70's I had a chance to pick up one that was in stock and eliminate the 6 month wait for a custom bow. The problem was it was an 85# Big 5. At the time the heaviest bow I'd shot was a 70# recurve so I didn't know if I could even pull 85#, so I Took my wifes 35# bow and a 50# bow that I had, held them together and pulled them both to my anchor. After I found I could pull the weight I ordered the 85 pounder along with a dozen arrows.
When the bow came I got it strung somehow and started shooting. I found I could only shoot 3 arrows and couldn't get the 4th one to anchor. So I'd shoot 3 arrows, and then go pull them and when I walked back to my bow my muscles were rested enough I could shoot 3 more.I shot every day as much as I could and it got easier as I got stronger. Three weeks after I got the bow I killed a nice buck with it.
I shot every day, rain or shine. I shot in the day time and at night under the yard lights. I remember once I was shooting at night and it was snowing like crazy. Nancy came out and said, "the neighbors will think you're crazy" I said, " it's time they knew". :D I shot not just to practice but because I loved to shoot.
The more I shot the stronger I got and the eaiser it was to hold and control the heavy bow. Soon I was ordering more heavy bows. I had a 83# Zebra longbow that was 70" long. That bow ended up being my "target bow". I won the Worlds Longbow Championship in Alabama shooting that 83# bow. To me it pulled like butter and I could hold it for several seconds at anchor and shoot it all day long if need be.
The bows I had that pulled in the 80's felt easy because I practiced with heavier bows to build muscle. My work out bows were 104# and 120#, my hunting bows were 85 to 90# and my target bows were 80- 83# I soon developed a distorted physique, the lat muscles and shoulder muscles on my left pulling side were much larger than the other side. It was only noticeable when I had my shirt off. I was fortunate to never have any shoulder problems although now, years later my bow shoulder clicks and grinds sometimes.
Ok, so what's the point of shooting the heavy stuff? For me it was better accuracy with my hunting bows. Before I started shooting heavy bows I had been shooting and hunting for 25 years with bows from 50 to 70#. I did all right with these weights but I did even better with heavier bows.
To have good accuracy with a bow you must have control of the bow. In other words YOU shoot the bow, the bow doesn't shoot you. You must be relaxed without a lot of strain to be able to make a good shot. That takes muscle, and you develop that muscle from shooting a heavier weight than you normally shoot. If you want to hunt with 60#, practice with 70#
Today at 71 years old I've dropped down in weight considerably. I hunt with 55 to 60# mainly because the old body is wearing out but also because I don't shoot as often as I used to. I find I can control and shoot a 60# bow as well as I used to shoot an 80 pounder. In the DVD Masters Of The Bare Bow, the bow I shot was 60#. The average weight today I think is around 50 to 55#. The other reason I'm shooting less weight is these new fangled bows I'm shooting today perform so darn well that you don't need a heavy bow. :goldtooth:
Possibly because there was no such thing as a light arrow back then. Those heavy wood and aluminum arrows take a heavy bow to make them shoot flat. Most of todays top 3D trad shooters who are also 99% hunters are commonly shooting bows from 40-55# with the rare 60-62# fellow here and there. Arrows were so heavy back then that people invented the overdraw so that they could cut there arrows shorter making them lighter. Not needed with todays light and stiff carbons.
I really enjoyed reading Ron's words, most of these things are happening to me so I feel a lot of things in common with his story. If you ever write a book, I'd buy it!
This may be strirring the pot with a canoe paddle but, I think there are two key points here:
ONE - you want to use the heaviest bow you are comfortable and proficient with. EMPHASIS ON COMFORTABLE - not I can draw it and hit with it for a couple shots. When you're cold, stiff, or tired that could come back to bite you.
Two - a 55# bow with 9-10 gpp arrows and reasonably heavy heads will suffice for 85% of what most of us hunt in North America (100% in many cases). There is no need to beat up your body to go heavier. That said, see point # 1... if you're comfortable and proficient with 70#+ go for it.... Just don't think you "Have to work your way up there" unless you are looking at going after very large or very dangerous game.
I personally feel it has become as much ego as practicality when it comes to draw weights above ~65# (in most cases) ... kinda like using a .300 win mag for a small whitetail in a PA wood lot. Dead is dead but some folks are just masochists and feel they need the magnums.... a 70# bow pushing 750grain telephone pole at 185 fps is approaching magnum status in my mind. An 80#+ bow pushing an 850gr+ arrow is definitely in magnum class. Or to put it another way - would you use something like a .500 Nitro on a Whitetail or even an Elk? Now if you only have one bow or rifle that's a whole 'nuther discussion.....
Edited to say, "Right on Ron!" .... In my case, at 42 years of age I am being forced to drop down in weight due to shoulder pain (30 years of hockey and other abuse will do that). With a ~32" draw any bow marked 60#@28" will become a 70#er by the time I reach anchor. I shoot my Howatt Hunter the best out of the 19 bows I have - it is also the heaviest I currently have - measuring 67#@31". Alas, I can hardly get to anchor with it any more as I get a sharp pain in my shoulder (A\\C joint) at about 3/4 draw. It's easier to drop down in weight than risk permanent damage.
I dug out some of my old heavy spined cedars. Acme Premium Supremes. A 23/64th parallel arrow spined 85-90# with 125gr point weighed 630gr. A 23/64 tapered to 5/16 shaft weighed 600gr. A 5/16 Sweetland Forgewood spined at 90# weighed 730gr. I shot these arrows out of 80# + bows.
Heavy spined Cedars are not that much heavier than lighter spined cedars and out of a heavy bow 80# or more bow they fly really flat....probably about like a modern lighter weight bow with high performance string shooting a light carbon arrow
pucci, you ask about a book, there was a thread here awhile back titled I think, "Ron LaClairs autobiography"....I'm workin on it :D
Thanks for weighing in on this ron (pun intended), it sheds a lot of light hearing from one of the guys on the list (which btw, was just off the top of my head and I'm sure there are others).
I also wanted to thank Ron for sharing his thoughts: Thank you, Ron!