I hunt whitetails and most of my shots in the hardwoods here in SE Ohio will be 10-20 yards and that is what distance I practice. I just will not take longer shots for fear of wounding an animal.
But when I practice long shooting at a target AND I SHOOT INSTICTIVELY, NOT USING GAP OR CHANGE IN ANCHOR POINT, I aim at the target just the same as my shorter distances and note how much below the bullseye or place I want the arrow to hit, that my arrow lands. Then on the next shot I hold over accordingly. Sort of what you do with a rifle.
Is there a better way? What works?
Paul
Then in reality you are gapping at longer distance. Might as well learn the gaps and go with it. It really is the most accurate and repeatable method IMO.
I try to shoot as much like Rick welch as possible, and his method works incredibly well for me, out to about 30yds, ive found after that i have to calculate hold over. If i hold about 4in over the deers back at 40 that deer is usually screwed barring a crappy release. Not that its hunting range, but its fun and makes 20 seem like a gimme. Id be interested as well to dabble with other methods at long distances.
I have been trying to shoot instinctively at longer ranges and it is tuff not to just revert to a gap method. I think the hardest part is picking a spot at longer distances. I shot some yesterday evening and found the more I concentrated on a mark on my 3D bear the better my shots were. I think to really get good you need to spend a lot of time at distances so the brain starts to figure it out.
Gee that sure sounds a lot like gaping. GASP!!
LOL
Mike
I have watched string walkers and what a crappy way to use a bow. Forget tillering, those limbs get all kinds of torque and the noise on release that sounds awful.
I do not like gapping because I look at the spot where I want to hit. Not the point of my arrow and then the place it is in relation to the target.That just goes against the flow of shooting.
Sometimes I think that people try to think too much.
Add another factor. Tree stand vs shooting off the ground.
Changes things considerably. So if you practice on the ground all year then climb, it could result in shooting over the back.
QuoteOriginally posted by Legolas:
I do not like gapping because I look at the spot where I want to hit. Not the point of my arrow and then the place it is in relation to the target.That just goes against the flow of shooting.
Gapping means that you focus on the target and also see the arrow point, but it is out of focus in your peripheral vision. You don't ever focus on the arrow point when gap shooting. Gapping means that you calculate the shot, meaning that you estimate the distance to the target, and place the arrow point either above, below, or on the target based on your estimate of the distance and gaps you have determined based on previous practice. Maybe it's the calculation you really object to, since otherwise what you're doing is pretty close to gap shooting.
Howard Hill used a form of gap shooting that he called "split vision," which was gap shooting without the calculation. He placed the arrow point on a spot that felt right to him without worrying about calculating anything, while always focusing on the target. So, there is somewhat of a crossover between gap and instinctive in his method. This is also the method I prefer, since I didn't take up archery to do a lot of calculations. I get plenty of calculating in my business as a CPA, and I shoot the bow and arrow to get away from that.
There is another aiming method called "point of aim," where you do focus on the arrow point, but I don't think many people use that method these days.
what you'll find as a gapper, you can take this to any degree. Staying rigid to somewhere closer to Hills method.
Over time you'll pay attention less and less on the arrow end, almost resorting back to a form of instinctive shooting. Kind of a middle road between the methods. It really shines when you're making quick shots. I've shot 2 grouse out of the air now, though its been years. one of those two was a reaction. The other....was pure luck LOL!
most of us started instinctive these days where years ago most shot some form of aiming coming from a field shoot background....its a natural roll over from a rigid system into a ho hum 'sloppy' method of shooting. its the few who can combine the two that really seem to shine. I'm by no means one of them.
Practicing at longer ranges can be a vital asset when making a follow up shot on an injured animal.
With shots less than 25 yards, I think that I am mostly an instinctive shooter. Indirectly, I can see that my arrow is situated so that it is pointing where I want it to go. Most of my stump shooting shots are over 40 yards, at that range I can see that my arrow is pointing with more loft, but I can also see its juxtaposition to what I am shooting at. Sometimes, especially when shooting left handed, I make a predetermined decision on its position and at other times just an observation. I do not like taking shots over 30 yards at deer, but when I get to shoot at a pheasant on the ground that has no chance of getting to me, I will take very long shots. Every once in a while they mess up and walk in front of my arrow.
McDave,
Well
Quoteand place the arrow point either above, below, or on the target based on your estimate of the distance and gaps you have determined based on previous practice.
That very idea of looking at the point of the arrow and placing it somewhere is foreign and rocks my world.But if I am going to have some precision at longer distances I will need to try to develope that system.
It just seemed in my way that I stare at the target and try to burn a hole in it. If I am now out to 45 yards and know my arrow is going to drop 14 inches from the bull I figured I would burn a hole in my target 14 inches higher.
There is another method that might work for you. (I use it in 3D shooting) It is the same method you would use if shooting a rife at a longer range than it was zeroed for. You hold over. For example, if you have a deer target at 40 yards, instead of "looking" at the spot you want to hit, you pick a spot higher on the deer (the top of the back) to compensate for the drop of the arrow. Obviously you will have to "practice" this so will "know" about how much drop you will get at certain ranges. It is quick to do, you don't have to "learn" a different style of shooting, you can use different arrows of different lengths, etc.
Oops, I just read Legolas post...looks like we are on the same wave length... :readit:
You guys are definitely thinking alike. That is an interesting concept that I never thought of trying. I guess to make that happen you would need to make some sure of range estimation.
Being an instinctive shooter, my long range, 50 yards, is handled the same way a my short range. Eyes focused on the target. My practice incorporates varying my ranges from 10-50 yards with each shot. I began to get consistent long range results years ago when I mentally called out the approximate distance in yards before each shot.
So Art-what is your technique?
I agree with Creekwood .
Jimmy Blackmon (sounds like a great guy) has quite a few youtubes about gap shooting. He was more the "instinctive" shooter for decades then switched. He has a bunch of info. He comments that any of the the national ranked shooters he knows all use some type of gap method. He too agrees that in time and typical hunting you pay less attention to the arrow tip/gap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgm-oErUEQM
QuoteOriginally posted by Legolas:
I do not like gapping because I look at the spot where I want to hit. Not the point of my arrow and then the place it is in relation to the target.That just goes against the flow of shooting.
The inconvenient truth about long distance shooting is the arrow will hide your spot or at least cover a good deal of it since the arrow is higher in your vision than your spot past your point on. So gapping over the target (aiming a predetermined distance over the target) makes good sense. It pays to practice this. It's not something that comes naturally at least to me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Legolas:
So Art-what is your technique?
Mentally note the range
Eyes focused on the target
Swing draw with my anchor to the corner of my mouth
Release
Sound too simple but after years of practice, it works for me.
Hi Guys I'm new to traditional archery and this is what I was trying to figure out. Except my distances are less since I'm a beginner. I normally gap shoot it's what I want to be, BUT there was times I would draw and shoot. At close range it wasn't bad. Farther distances it was really squirrely. Maybe I cant be a slave to 2 masters. So, I think I'll concentrate on the gap shooting and formulating my own "dope" based on my setup. What about the switching from 3 under to 2 under? Or is that string walking?
Oh my those Jimmy Blackmom videoes were very helpful!
And he defines how a fast arrow setup will be different than a slow arrow (as in a big grains per inch).
I am now going to plot my gaps and check out my set up.
Thank you ksdan.
Over thinking really puts the screws to my shot over 30 yards. I practice 40 and over just to practice. I guess I feel more comfortable at 20 being my range but am getting more confident and would like 25 to be my max for hunting. Good luck.
I use "point of aim". Millions of teachers and student archers are being taught this as well so they can shoot without sights.
I also string walk. If you've used sights for a long time (me from 1981-2010) Ignoring the point of the arrow in a high pressure situation (hunting shot) is very difficult to prevent and results in high shots. Walking accommodates the shooter's experience instead of fighting it.
After reading McDave's post I finally admitted to myself that I gap shoot. Or split vision, whichever you prefer. Been doing this forever. I concentrate on a spot but I know the arrow is in my peripheral vision. As long as I hit what I look at, who cares what it's called.
Agree 100% with Butch!
I shot a compound with sights from about 1975 - 2002 then went back to instinctive shooting stick bows exclusively. when i shot a sight, I used the sight more as a reference than an exact aiming point - sort of "there, that looks about right". I do similar in shooting instinctive.
I think everyone, at least subconsciously, uses a form of gap shooting, your mind is aware of where your bow hand, arrow tip, or whatever are pointing. I practice to learn my point on distance (34 yards) and am vaguely aware of distance and arrow point as I draw and shoot - shots under 34 yards require the arrow to appear below the desired point of impact, longer shots require the arrow point appear above the desired point of impact.
Beyond about 50 or 60 yards it's all instinctive because I can't judge the distance that accurately and just pull back and let it go when it feels right. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't!
I think most people would be surprised at their long range accuracy if they didn't think so much about it and just went out and launched lots of arrows at stumps and distance targets.
Something you may be interested in. It breaks things down into its simpiliest forms.
https://weshood.wordpress.com/book-dvd/
Try this. Go out and shoot at your target in the dark. (The darker the better) Stick or hang a "light stick" in front of your target and back up to 15-20 yards and shoot. You will find out for sure if you gap or shoot instinctive. I do this to work on my form and concentration. As a matter of fact, I shoot better this way! (Maybe I need to go hunting wearing really dark glasses!) :saywhat:
I just practice a lot. Once I'm over about forty yards I guess I transition from instinctive to instinctive gap. You do it enough times and you can get pretty good at the holdover amounts. Just takes a lot of practice!
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
QuoteOriginally posted by Legolas:
[qb]
Howard Hill used a form of gap shooting that he called "split vision," which was gap shooting without the calculation. He placed the arrow point on a spot that felt right to him without worrying about calculating anything, while always focusing on the target. So, there is somewhat of a crossover between gap and instinctive in his method. [/b]
This quote sums up how I'm now trying to shoot. I shot for many years, calling my self instinctive only and was never aware of the arrow unless I was near point on. Most of the time I'm still not aware of the arrow when shooting BUT the past couple of years I've tried slowing down my shot by a mili-second, and when I do I am aware of the out of focus arrow in my secondary vision.
It has always been there and is there for everyone, it's just learning how to see it if you want to. And now I know why Howard Hill said something to the affect of, "not having an excuse for missing the 2nd arrow".
Split Vision is a type of Gap shooting (feel good gaps) that I believe our mind uses to calculate the shot. If I choose to pause a 1/10th of a second (or more) and see the out of focus arrow (and string blur) it will allow a person to become a better archer as it allows for greater consistency.
It is a tool to for self correction when evaluating the shot.
For shooting point on, being aware of Split Vision will give you an immense amount of information about your shot, alignment, etc.
Your mind is seeing the arrow and using the arrow for reference whether we are aware of it so making the decision to "be aware" of the arrow is very helpful. Bryon Ferguson also talks about this in his book, Become The Arrow.
QuoteOriginally posted by skitterwalker:
Hi Guys I'm new to traditional archery and this is what I was trying to figure out. Except my distances are less since I'm a beginner. I normally gap shoot it's what I want to be, BUT there was times I would draw and shoot. At close range it wasn't bad. Farther distances it was really squirrely. Maybe I cant be a slave to 2 masters. So, I think I'll concentrate on the gap shooting and formulating my own "dope" based on my setup. What about the switching from 3 under to 2 under? Or is that string walking?
By 2 under do you mean split (index finger above the arrow, middle and ring finger below) or do you mean just 2 under? Shooting 2 or 3 fingers under (with none above) will probably give you the same results, as your anchor point is the same. But you may see differences based on if you get a better release. String walking is all fingers under and leaving a space between your finger and the nock that correlates to certain distance.
Level of difficulty goes up and accuracy potential goes down as distance increases. This is true no matter what siting method is used. Flat arrow trajectory reduces the problem to a point, but even flat-shooting arrows remain flat to only relatively short distances...maybe 30 yards or so...before inviting error. If shots are longer it's up to the archer to either 'sense' the correct sight picture and remember the necessary arrow arc from prior practice (instinctive shooter), or be skilled in estimating the yardage so the corresponding hold over can be set (gap shooter). Either way, unless the distance is KNOWN it must be sensed or estimated... meaning at best a long shot is a guessing game with regard to accuracy. Add in the need to execute the shot sequence with near perfection as shots get longer and it's not looking good for dependable results.
I'll bet that most archers aren't particularly good at estimating distance accurately at ranges beyond the flat trajectory boundary, when adrenaline levels are high and particularly if the target itself can move at any time.
Maybe it's true. Maybe archery really is a short range sport.