I'm starting to notice something. When I was looking to buy my newest bow, I talked with the owners of the companies I was interested in. They acted like they had all the time in the world to just talk to me. I just got off the phone with a broadhead manufacturer, same thing. The owner called me because I had sent in a question on his website and again, he acted like he had all the time in the world for me. I've never experienced anything like this while I was shooting compounds. As a matter of fact, it was quite the opposite. This site is really not any different. All of my questions have been met with positive and helpful answers and to all of you and the traditional market in general, Thank you
I've noticed the same thing. The traditional world is one of a kind. People are nice and more than helpful. There is no hiding of tips/tricks of the trade. Eveyone seems to pay it forward and realize that at one point in time - they were a "beginner" or less experienced as well.
It's no longer about speed or price of equipment or top scores at 3D shoots; rather it's all about having fun and enjoying archery as it was intended to be!
I'm 100% sold on traditional only.
I think one of the biggest reasons for this that most people seem to forget is because we're actually dealing with PEOPLE who practice a trade, not corporations.
With wheelie gear you go down to the local store and grab a pack of rage broadheads, an X brand compound and a 6-pack of arrows that are already fletched with vanes and you're out the door.
With traditional gear, almost everything from the string to the bow to your tab is handmade by someone, giving you a whole new personal level with the people behind the craft. Truly makes for a special experience and I we're all the lucky ones.
Sometimes we forget how good we've got it.
Something I've noticed with bowyers here and on other sites is they aren't afraid to recommend a bow other than their own, particularly for someone just starting out. Also, most seem very complimentary toward others work.
Steve
I've noticed a difference at shoots. The compounders are all range finders and binoculars, seriously calculating distances and shots. We're all jiving and joking and generally laughing at each other. Sometimes a guy will have to let down his shot because he starts laughing in the middle of it at something somebody else said. And that's when we're trying to behave ourselves in front of all the compounders. Don't even start on what happens when we're at a trad only meet.
"it's what's between the ears" in IMHO
I mean that from the way people are treated to whether you can or think you can shoot traditional.
And the word FUN comes into mind when you compare traditional to alternative type archery.
QuoteOriginally posted by shreffler:
I think one of the biggest reasons for this that most people seem to forget is because we're actually dealing with PEOPLE who practice a trade, not corporations.
With wheelie gear you go down to the local store and grab a pack of rage broadheads, an X brand compound and a 6-pack of arrows that are already fletched with vanes and you're out the door.
With traditional gear, almost everything from the string to the bow to your tab is handmade by someone, giving you a whole new personal level with the people behind the craft. Truly makes for a special experience and I we're all the lucky ones.
Sometimes we forget how good we've got it.
YUP!!! You nailed it. Compound bows are mass produced in a factory using automated equipment resulting in nothing more than a tool. Custom bowyers, however, are not only producing a tool but also a work of art. The difference is a product of the number of units sold.......wheelie bow sales are measured in the tens of thousands and more while custom trad bow sales are measured in hundreds or less.
They don't really have the time in most cases, but they'll take the time when called upon, because they want you to be aware of & understand whatever it is.
In other words, they understand it is to both yours and their mutual benefit.
Kirk Lavender of Bigfoot bows is a prime example. He is a busy man, and even though I have yet to lay down my hard earned cash with him he still takes the time to help me out over the phone. I honestly would have thought he would have my number blocked by now.
They don't give the same attention because they deal with 1000x the number of customers trad guys do. If you could find a guy who built 50-100 a year, he'd remember your name to.
I agree with all. We are a small niche in a realative small sport here in USA. We are all pretty much like minded, we want to be treated like we would treat someone else, with respect. The bowyers and suppliers that do not treat people well are usually gone in a short time or end up with a small group of followers who are just as obnoxious as they are. Been there seen that. I move on. I just wish I had the funds so I could call and talk the ears off some of the great bowyers we have here.
I am like McDave, I go to shoots to have a good time. i realized many years ago if I won an award it was because I was the only guy in that class!! Archery is my way to relax. I am sure for most of you it is also.
This is the difference between larger, mass produced production businesses and small handmade products. Most compounds are made by larger, multilayered businesses. So the people you deal with at a shop is many layers removed from the engineers who design the products. Those engineers have passion and knowledge and I garuntee they would talk about it, but the consumer never sees them. In the trad world I've noticed there are very few shops, and most of the companies making products are very small scale, in some cases 1 man shows. So you are either with someone who makes the products or is close to the operation. There's a lot less layers in that onion so you get to the heart really quickly.
Yep to everything that has been posted. We are a small percentage of the archery market. However I think we have the most fun as well!
Good call on the # of customers served by each. That being said I had great dealings with a new small compound company out of South Dakota.
They were the exception though.
Every trad bowyer broadhead producer retailer etc has been great to deal with.
There's only so many ways to customize a compound, when I ordered my Tall Tines I seriously had lists of all the woods that I wanted to look @ before making a decision (sorry Brian but thanks for being so accommodating!)
you got it right.
I've noticed it over the years myself. There seems to be bond between traditional archers, that you don't see as much with other styles of archery, or hunting in general. I've wondered if we as traditional archers, knowing the effort that's needed to become proficient with traditional equipment, and the need to work towards becoming better hunters so we get the shots we want with traditional equipment plays a part in that bond. I have nothing against anybody that chooses to hunt with anything other than traditional archery equipment. It's a personal decision and I respect that, but yes, I've noticed the same thing. Thanks.
Bob
Just a world of difference this trad thing...never used to joke and laugh as much as I do now while shooting. Wheelies are way to serious! Lot of great folks out there in the trad community.
QuoteOriginally posted by Whitetail Addict:
I've noticed it over the years myself. There seems to be bond between traditional archers, that you don't see as much with other styles of archery, or hunting in general. I've wondered if we as traditional archers, knowing the effort that's needed to become proficient with traditional equipment, and the need to work towards becoming better hunters so we get the shots we want with traditional equipment plays a part in that bond. I have nothing against anybody that chooses to hunt with anything other than traditional archery equipment. It's a personal decision and I respect that, but yes, I've noticed the same thing. Thanks.
Bob
It is funny that you say that about the bond between traditional bowhunters. This thread comes at a time when my home state (Missouri) is possibly on the verge of including crossbows in it's regular archery season. The comment you made about that bond between traditional bowhunters echoes what I'm seeing between modern bowhunters (compound guys), many of whom in Missouri are VERY upset about the possible inclusion of crossbows in archery season. They are "banding" together as REAL bowhunters, they say, to stand up against crossbows. "ELITISTS" is what the crossbow guys call the compound guys who don't want crossbows included. The compound guys seem to have forgotten the stir that was created among bowhunters when compounds were first introduced.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the compound guys are a pretty tight group too...they look down on the crossbow hunter....they look down on the rifle hunter and they call the trad hunters elitist....lol.
To compare a company like Hoyt, Matthews, Bowtech, etc to a small traditional bowyers operation is apples and oranges. Even a "big" trad operation like Black Widow is small by comparison. It's like comparing the corner hardware store to Home Depot. Ones not any better than the other, just different.
While the experience is not the same with a big compound company some still do have excellent customer service
That being said, I too prefer knowing I can call up my bowyer and speak directly to him at length about whatever we need to discuss. The trad community is smaller, and therefore by nature, more intimate and familiar.
The Asian trad community is even smaller, but you guys sure make us feel welcome. It's nothing like the compound guys-many of whom are completely ignorant about simple truths about archery and hunting. I'm very, very glad to be a trad archer-everyone remembers your name in this game. Even if all they remember is that you shoot a funny bow.
I think you will find serious competitors and serious archery hunters regardless of the equipment we use.... i truly believe as archers we should be united as one group instead of criticizing ones choice of bow
I hunted with a compound bow for many years and did real well with it. I even got into a lot 3D competition in the unlimited class with all the fancy scopes and back tension releases and such. It was very intense, very competitive, and i enjoyed the challenges that came with it a lot.
But after spending years shooting & hunting with high tech equipment, i got the itch for another challenge. The bow building bug had my full attention long before i became competent enough to hunt with confidence using a traditional style bow.....
But the biggest difference i noticed was the fun factor..... The lower kinetic energy ratings of the stick bows allow guys to go use flu-flues and shoot birds and small game with a reasonable return on your arrow shafts. Guys can go shoot stumps without trashing too many arrows too..... Hey! that stuff is fun! You can't take a high powered compound bow out and shoot stumps without loosing 90% of your arrows.
I think the nature of traditional archers becoming a closer knit group is mostly because we are a smaller group dedicated to keeping this challenging sport alive. You can find extremist intense personalities in any sport, as well as people that just like to have fun... These Trad bows just allow us more versatility in what we use them for, and can be more fun to shoot.
I couldn't agree more, a quick question to a sponsor here turned into a serious of hr long conversations. I was sure I knew what product I wanted and he told me I didn't need it and I should spend less money on a different product. In the real world we have come to not expect honesty and a high level of integrity in people we deal with, traditional archery is filled with traditional values.
When you meet another traditional hunter in the field you are likely to shake hands and introduce yourself. In the wheel world this is far less likely. The only thing I know about someone carrying a compound is that he/she is a bowhunter. And just being a bowhunter covers a lot of ground.
Right or wrong, I feel like I know something about the guy with a longbow in his hand. Theirs also the connection between the craftsman and customer. So much of the equipment comes down to a shared design philosophy.
NOTE: this member (TDonald) has been banned.
he has nothing to contribute to the traditional archery/bowhunting community
and somehow he thinks that wheel bows are just like trad bows, if not better.
Hey TDonald did you read all the posts,most guys just related there opinions on there experiences, I've read pros and cons on both sides and did'nt read anyone diliberatly bash anyone. You need to take a chill pill. After all this is a Trad hunting site, most love our sport,it brings us together in a good way, you can take a hike and bash us all you want we're to intelligent to argue with ignorance,just my opinion I could be wrong.
TDonald
At the top right of your screen is a red block with an X in it. Try clicking on that, it will help.
Later
ChuckC
I've had great experiences on both sides of the coin. I might have to go deeper to find the right person in a larger company, but they can be found. I've dealt with (only) a few independent traditional folks over the years who were rather indifferent. In general I think I can find friendliness in most activities or companies if I just look. I don't personally think it has to be a matter of weapon type or style.
On the other hand, I've seen enough intolerant people explode into forum rants to last a lifetime.
Hmmmmm, Never thought I would see that on this forum. I watched TG for several years before I decided that it was where I wanted to sponser. My first take was that it was way up tight. The longer I studied it the more I realized that there was a reason for that. As long as the subject stayed in the red all was good. When it strayed it was possibly removed. The overall tone I noticed was congeniality, concern, and post that were relative to the subject. Traditional Bowhunting.
There is no tolerance for confusion or for trash.
Personally I like that and it is why I chose this site to be a Sponser. I do feel slightly alienated by being a Westerner. But hey. I get to elk hunt every year and that helps muchly. :biglaugh:
God bless, Steve
TDonald, I just re read this thread, and in all honesty I don't see any bashing going on, or have I ever seen any on this site.
I had to quit school and go to work at 17, so I may be one of the "less-than literate" people you spoke of, but I'm no elitist by any stretch.
I choose to shoot, and hunt with traditional equipment, and I'm proud of my accomplishments as a traditional archer, but I don't look down on anybody else for what they choose to shoot, or hunt with. We're all on the same team as far as I'm concerned.
In the time I've been here, I've never seen anything from the other members but respect, generosity, and helpfulness. I'm proud to be a part of Trad Gang, and I'm sorry that you feel the way you do.
Bob
I've noticed the same, very few bad apples in the traditional group!
We are a whole different breed!!! :campfire:
I am an elitist, when I meet a young and friendly compound or gunner hunter, I do my very best to talk them into becoming a traditional archer. However, when being goaded by three cp guys that are talking of ways to get crossbow permits and pooling their funds to buy a camera equipped drone and bragging that they could check out where and what I was hunting and keep me from getting anything, seen a completely different kind of elitist. One with a phone and a computer that immediately called the DNR and emailed the state about clarifying abuses to the current laws. If you think one person cannot influence the state, watch me.
He's just trolling guys! He started crap on the bowyers bench too!
13 posts like that and he is still here? The two newbie cp shooters that came over the other day, the first year newbie did some home work and hit the ground running with my Kodiak Special. That skinny kid is stronger than he looks. This being a traditional elitist can be fun. I will make him some arrows if he goes for it and sells his compound. I don't think Mister T D is up for any kind of a personal challenge.
I agree with the above.
Maybe it is different elsewhere, but my friends that hunted with compound bows with me have all given up on the sport. None of them really seemed to love shooting their bows- it was just a way to hunt deer earlier. For me at 62 years old, I love it more than ever. Love shooting target practice, hunting -everything about it.
If it is about killing I will take a .300 Win mag. Of course I am exaggerating but I could definitely shoot game at much longer range with a compound. For me it extends the range from 30 yards max to 90 yards max, That sounds like a 300 percent increase.
So , I am not an elitist but I just plain enjoy the dependableness, light weight , stump killing , mushroom bustin, longbow or recurve about a thousand times more than carrying a hunk of metal around in the woods. To me compounds do not even resemble a bow anymore. But again, to each his own and I recognize compound shooters as bowhunters. I fail to do that with X bows though for some reason.
We , compound and trad bow shooters are enjoying the same things but honestly I feel like most compound shooters do not enjoy the bow and arrow like most trad shooters do. I know that the first time I killed an elk with a recurve I felt an accomplishment like nothing else before that. But hey,. That may just be me.
God bless you all, Steve
agree with many above...and truthfully, I think the modern compound guys have more to fear than we do from crossbows...hear me out.
a lot of guys I know and knew shot compounds because they could sight it in and unless it got bumped hard would shoot flat and straight out to 40 yards...but they still had to worry about target panic, hitting release too quick, and very finicky arrow flight the faster they got with the lighter arrows and heads. So the huge advantage started to dimish somewhat except for the most dedicated as they max out around 60-95% letoff. Still takes effort to get it over the hump and into the letoff and drawing without being seen...though once there you can hold it significantly longer.
Next comes the X-gun....started off as a poor performer but the industry has latched on to it as the next big money maker...hence all the advertising and every PRO hunter on television is shooting a x-gun at least once a month it seems. It chaps my ass to hear a compound called a STICK AND STRING BOW...but now have heard it used for recurve x-guns as well. WTF?
Anyhow...now the group that wanted faster, easier, more accurate, longer range, etc.....are looking for x-guns for even more ease of use...and also a whole new host of even less ...lets say....woods-wise hunters are coming in the woods and buying everything they can find. Not sure if it is the zombie crap or just the mass marketing but you cant shake a stick without crossbow crap in catalogs and stores everywhere. You are starting to see fewer and fewer hosts shooting compounds much less traditional....and easily half or 3/4 of most store inventories are going to cross bows for the box stores...and every PRO SHOP has at least a couple as they get asked for them all the time.
I think there is a real threat that the x-gun will nearly replace the compound in use as modern hunting weapon in most areas. I am also going to predict....that it will cause a lash back and many will come BACK to traditional or try it as they are looking for more than just squeezing a trigger while looking through a scope for a bow season weapon. Once the novelty wears off...the true hunters will want more I think. May be wrong...we shall see.
as for compounds vs trad....i started with wheels on my bow and swapped out for recurve in 1990 or so...never looked back. I never had the fun, the emotion, or the connection with nature and hunting until I started having to seriously play the winds, learn the habits, and know my quarry's personality while hunting....to be honest...the compound was just another hunting weapon and I felt more CONNECTION with my old .54 cal hawken when hunting with lead balls and iron sights than I did with my compound.
There is a difference....a huge difference in hunting with a true stick and string. If you dont feel lit....then I suspect you are not fully immersed...most I talk with that dont have that feeling are still going back and forth with compounds...or trying to treat the trad bow like a compound with never ending quest for speed, flatness, pinpoint accuracy...nothing wrong with that...but part of the fun and challenge and satisfaction is knowing your limitations....and STILL being successful by staying within them and never quitting.
Nice post Ron, seems we think along the same lines....Interesting prediction as well.
If I had to wager rather than compound shooters moving to traditional I would suspect them to redefine traditional to include their equipment. But hey, just speculation on my part, time will tell.
Like bike riding, there is a big difference between die hard mountain bikers vs. road bikers.
There is a bigger difference as a whole between people who shoot traditional bows vs. compounds, IMO.
A very interesting and notable reality.
I've met good and bad in most every walk of life, traditional archery being no exception. Met some of most stand-up people ever in the sport, experienced some of the most hypocritical skunks, and pretty much everything in-between.
The older I get, the more this rings true...for me at least.
What LBR said x2. For the most part, People are people everywhere you go, regardless of demographics or interests. Most are inherently good and some are better than others.
I primarily shoot/hunt trad but have used compounds and have family and friends that still do. We have just as much fun shooting together as anyone. They are serious and highly ethical hunters but know how to have fun.
We're a lot more similar than you think. It just comes down to personal preference
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
We , compound and trad bow shooters are enjoying the same things but honestly I feel like most compound shooters do not enjoy the bow and arrow like most trad shooters do. I know that the first time I killed an elk with a recurve I felt an accomplishment like nothing else before that. But hey,. That may just be me.
God bless you all, Steve
It is not just you Sixby! I still get that feeling when I am successful with my longbow, even if it is just a rabbit or a doe. Not because it has some mystical , magical qualities, but because it is harder. No sights and no let-off is harder than with sights and let-off, PERIOD!
The fact that no sights and no let-off is that much harder, and takes much more effort and work to become proficient makes the rewards when we are successful that much greater!!!!!!!
I don't give a rats petuty what a guy hunts with, as long as he is doing it leaglly. I just got back from Africa where both my buddies were using compounds, and we had a fantastic hunt together. I say go have fun with what you like. Life is too short to get all huffy because someone else does not do it the way you do.
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by TDonald:
I'll tell ya', there's absolutely nothing to match the feel of a really high quality compound bow.
Certainly has a lot more accuracy and takes a lot more skill to shoot than some piece of glued wood that can't even put an arrow through a deer.
Sorry, but I'm going to break my own rules.....you are an IDIOT!!!
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images5/tgbuff2.jpg)
:bigsmyl: :clapper: :clapper:
Bob
QuoteI don't give a rats petuty what a guy hunts with, as long as he is doing it leaglly. I just got back from Africa where both my buddies were using compounds, and we had a fantastic hunt together. I say go have fun with what you like. Life is too short to get all huffy because someone else does not do it the way you do.
:thumbsup:
Spot on. Some of the absolute best bow shots/hunters I know are also excellent shotgun and rifle shots/hunters. They are excellent shots and hunters, PERIOD.
My grandmother must have been a great hunter, she could kill a deer at 300 yards with a 30-30. God rest her soul.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by TDonald:
I'll tell ya', there's absolutely nothing to match the feel of a really high quality compound bow.
Certainly has a lot more accuracy and takes a lot more skill to shoot than some piece of glued wood that can't even put an arrow through a deer.
Sorry, but I'm going to break my own rules.....you are an IDIOT!!!
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images5/tgbuff2.jpg) [/b]
Please ban me Rob....I just did it again!!!