are you supposed to look at the way the arrow impacts the target? nock left or nock right or POI left or right?
Check-out greyarcher1 on you tube. He has a simple way of doing and explaining bare shaft tuning.
For a right handed shooter the arrow knock left is weak, the knock right is stiff. Roy
http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
so can a 3d target work for nock right or left or is it too hard? I hear bag targets are too soft.
I just watch a great video on you tube. S3 Archery. it was very clear on what to do. One thing he said was do not cant the bow when bare shafting!! Good to know that
Up close, like the 7 yards I can get in my shop, I look at the angle of impact to see if I'm getting close. After that, I go to a range where I can shoot 20 yards and then I'm really just concerned with point of impact. If I can get bareshaft and fletched hitting together at that distance or beyond, I'm a happy camper.
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent HERE. (http://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM?list=PLqiGpHioVnFay9kWnrVdNnzf3wOmsNauS)
Thom
thanks Sticks! I did manage somehow to get a bare shaft to fly straight and hit perfectly once at 24 yards. Blind luck?
Thanks for the link Sticks! Ken Beck has a section on bare shaft tuning in Masters of the Bare Bow, and This YouTube video expands on that. Everyone who is interested in bare shaft tuning should watch this.
Personally I always take 10 shots in a row and put tick marks on the target. If all 10 are weak I cut 1/8". If it's a mix of results I take a break and refocus on form and try again.
The other thing that I've seen confuse some guys is that they shoot into targets that are shot up and the arrow can tweak on impact and give false readings. I've got two tricks that might help with watching the arrow in flight. First have a buddy stand behind you and film the arrow in slow-motion mode. The other one is if you can't see the nock in flight, swap the nock for one of those Nocturnals. With a black shaft and a black target with poor indoor ligting this is the only way I can always see the nock clearly.
Once I get a bare shaft flying perfectly I put it in my quiver and I shoot it right along with my field points. I shoot 5 yards out to almost 30 on foam, and a well tuned bare shaft will be fine for anything in there.
Hope something above helps!
Thom
Another tip would be to have the arrows you're shooting match the bare shaft as much as possible in weight and spine. We're all aware of weight and spine variations (and straightness variations, while we're at it) in wood arrows, but be aware that there could also be weight and spine variations in carbon arrows. Probably a good idea to check this rather than just assuming they are all the same weight and spine.
Probably not so much weight and spine variation in aluminum arrows as in carbon, but do check the straightness of your aluminum arrows from time to time.
see I don't understand. How can you expect a bare shaft to fly like a fletched shaft. I mean you can get the bare shaft to fly perfect, but when you add the fletching doesn't that change the weight and spine of a shaft? Im just thinking out loud.
That's why some guys bare shaft until the shaft shows a tad weak. Then when they add fletching, the arrow stiffens up to compensate for the tad weak reading.
gotcha
Landon, just to add to the already good info above, I have a bare shaft with the feather bases in place. I just trimmed the quills off each feather. This leaves most of the feather weight in place without having the guidance of the actual feather.
Comparing a shaft rigged this way to a completely bare shaft, the fully bare shaft shoots weaker.
Hope this makes sense!
yeh, I saw a guy do that on you tube. I should have done that myself. Allen, I am going to shoot the bare shaft again today without canting the bow, if I get a stiff reading, should i just trim the silencers a bit more? I took very little off. I think I am almost there. I was getting some serious fletch contact on the side plate and shelf, I will try and turn nock to get cock feather up and also cock feather in and see if that helps.
I wrap the bare shafts with some electrical tape or clear tape spiraling the stuff down the length where my wrap would be trying not to double the stuff up to much. its heavy enough to compensate for both the wrap and the feathers to help with the spine changes. when you add weight to the back you make the spine heavier after all.
Landon, yep just keep trimming a little at a time. I tend to get my best results with cock feather up.
Ken Beck does a great job explaining it like others have posted.
Ok, here is what I have come up with through much trial and error, lots of error. Kirk of Bigfoot bows, Allen (A.S.), and Paradocs have been instrumental in the entire process. Big thanks to them. I took the bare shaft shot from 5-24 yards. Every shot was a just slightly weak. from 5-15 it was nock left in the target every time but just slightly. from 16-24 I could see the arrow nock left in flight. It was just ever so noticeable. only a slight bit for just a split second..but it landed straight in the target... Fletched arrows were spot on every time. I may have just tuned my first recurve!!
:archer:
Now we just have to get you on the 3D course with the entire Cool Springs Gang!
I hope I shoot better than this past weekend!
It's all in his head, Allen....that, and a dropped elbow :saywhat: He's got potential...
I start with a bare shaft and watch it on flight. I shoot at 25 yards. Once I am getting what appears to be good flight I switch to the bare shaft planning method and go from there.
QuoteOriginally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent HERE. (http://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM?list=PLqiGpHioVnFay9kWnrVdNnzf3wOmsNauS)
Thom
That was a good film bro... thanks.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent HERE. (http://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM?list=PLqiGpHioVnFay9kWnrVdNnzf3wOmsNauS)
Thom
That was a good film bro... thanks. [/b]
YES and YES. Watch this...
QuoteOriginally posted by sticksnstones:
I like the long version Ken Beck video best, 25 minutes well spent HERE. (http://youtu.be/BSJ6-HjPMTM?list=PLqiGpHioVnFay9kWnrVdNnzf3wOmsNauS)
Thom
Bingo! Ive never seen these videos until now. Spot on!
QuoteOriginally posted by VA Elite:
so can a 3d target work for nock right or left or is it too hard? I hear bag targets are too soft.
You are better off watching the arrow in flight and not once it impacts the target. Once you are close and you fine tune with fletch and bare the you look at arrow inpact.
Here is a very simple way to tune
http://tradgeeks.com/how-to-bare-shaft-tune-arrows/
It seems to me that the condition of the target can affect how the shaft points upon impact. Either a soft or hard spot could affect it. Wouldn't careful observation of arrow flight give a better indication? This has always confused me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bldtrailer:
Here is a very simple way to tune
http://tradgeeks.com/how-to-bare-shaft-tune-arrows/
Good job on that video. I really like the fact you pointed out that changing your brace height to tune arrows should be saved as a last resort. Finding the sweet spot in the bows brace first is going to give you the quietest best shooting bow.
btw.... very nice shooting there too...
Yes, carbon arrows can have slight spine differences. I spent a bunch of time on the phone talking with an engineer last week discussing this very thing. According to AMO, the acceptable variance is +- .015.
That means that If a shaft is rated to be .500 spine, it could be as weak as .515 and as stiff as .485 and still be within specs. This might sound like a bunch, but it is the equivalent to +- 1 1/2 lbs in a wood arrow. That would be an awfully good set of matched wood arrows.
Now don't forget, that just because a particular shaft is considered to be a .500, .600, or .400 doesn't mean that they are actually rated dead on at those numbers.
The engineer also informed me that of all the available spine testers on the market, they couldn't find a production one that was consistent enough to use for their testing so they had to design their own.
It amazes me that as inconsistent as a human can be, that they always assume flight issues are due to inconsistent equipment.
Bare shafting is where it's at for tuning, but be careful of false readings. Shafts that are too stiff and hit the bow will usually show too weak.
with a nock point too low, or only one nock point for three under shooters could show all kinds of crazy things and especially inconsistency. Every little variance in style and release will cause that arrow to bounce off of the shelf in a different location and cause different reads.
This evening I shot a bare shaft at least 30 times...the same shaft from the same bow over and over. Most of the time it showed perfect or nearly perfect, but occasionally it showed stiff. Obviously a discrepancy in my form since it was the same arrow and bow each time.
Bigjim
"It amazes me that as inconsistent as a human can be, that they always assume flight issues are due to inconsistent equipment."
Actually Jim it is due to those inconsistencies that an archer should do his best to get his arrows matched as close as possible....
For an example you've got a spine difference of .030 in your quiver, and you paid no attention to spine testing them from weak to strong side.... After spending a bit of time checking some of these different shafts, i've found some of them were as much as .020 difference from one side of the arrow to the next....
So now you have a spine range difference of .058 from one arrow to the next, and add in a slightly short draw, or come off the string rough. The different arrow spine, plus human error combination amplifies it.... instead of being 3" off you are missing the dad burn target completely.....
Can somebody explain to me why you should not can't your bow while bate shaft tuning? Wouldn't you want to tune the way you shoot?
So a few of these questions always come up when talking about bareshafting.
Can a target medium give false neg or false pos? Sure they can. If you read what the arrow is '
saying' after impact and its moved, you're getting potentially wrong readings. I would venture to say 90% of us if not more can easily see when an arrow is off at impact (before it reacts to the target). It creates more of an issue when you get into fine tuning at any form of distance. The closer you get to perfect and the farther away you get, the more your vision comes into play.
I like starting with soft targets with unknown setups (generally going off of someones spreadsheet forms of what spine it 'should' be) if nothing else to keep blowing arrows up to a minimum. You never know the shooter/bow requirements. A burlap sack with shrink wrapped stuffed inside works well for this. a used block style target works well as well though it is harder and will lead to breaks (cracks) if you're way out in spine. The newer the block, the more likely you'll break if your spine/form is way out.
At distance, shooting a block style target to fine tune is a wise idea. Or any other target that is not concrete cinders!
The irony in fine tuning a bare shaft is adding fletching can and sometimes does change tuning. (think dynamic spine here, weight at the tail end increases dynamic spine, as will adding paint) this is where group testing comes in. After all why waste a pile of money on shafts when you may be on the edge of a spine group. Adding fletchings and a bh may be enough to bump you up a group, testing with unpainted shafts and shooting crown dipped/cresting could possibly bump you up two if you were close to begin with. I'd rather find this out with test shafts vs spending 100 bucks on a dozen shafts....TWICE! dip them all plain jane and run with it.
Bareshafting is not an end all cure. it does do a few things. one it gets you close, generally very close! Again adding fletchings bh's and paint (if you are bent on painting after the fact) can and likely will change things, though generally its a slight change (fine tuning), than something gross. The more you rule out here, (paint) the less gross errors if any you'll come across.
It also shows you IMMEDIATLY your faults as a shooter. I laugh when people talk about inconsistencies. Isn't this the very thing we're trying to work out? Bowhunting is a game of consistencies, not inconsistencies. I get similar results as Jim does.... Shooting a bunch of arrows or the same arrow I'll get similar results though at times one will go haywire, its me not the gear USUALLY!!!! Its something I want to know is an issue and work on. The greats (almost all) did this very thing in one form or another. Why should we hold ourselves to a lesser standard?
Next I'll address canting vs straight up and down. I tell people if you cant, shoot canted. You'll need to adjust your + axis accordingly. Even with my simple education, I can figure this out pretty quickly. There's always someone who doesn't get it (or gets hung up on it for some reason). I have them shoot vert, they generally get it rather quickly after that and move back to shooting 'normal' again whatever that may be.
Once you're tuned, as long as NOTHING changes, your arrow is going to fly straight as an arrow ( depending on to what enth degree you take this, some settle for much much less than this and call them or the bow tuned). Laying on your back, belly etc etc. Once things change (pressure, dl etc) dynamic spine requirements will shift. Do you part, the equipment will do its job. Look at Hill for a second. he could reach into a crowd and shoot miss matched arrows into bulls...how? Well it obviously wasn't because his gear was tuned to the enth degree with the miss matched arrows. It was spot on perfect form! Having the benefit of learning starting on the competition target side and using this lesson on game. It was a natural progression for someone who made his living with a bow in hand. Shooting 12dz arrows a day, over half alone was for form. The results are history! though we all may not achieve this level of accuracy, its entirely possible.
The short answer is this. by taking the time to follow some very simple steps, you do two very important things.
1....you tune your bow. It seems simple enough. yet its fluid, If you change anything your dynamic spine MAY (or may not) change! back to the tuning board.
2.... which is more important, you tune yourself! By ruling out human errors keeping them consistent even if they're off you can make the needed corrections to be an accurate bowhunter/archer! The more you work on it, in theory the better you should become. basic understanding/teaching and effort along with natural abilities will be the limiting factors as to how well or poor you do in the end.
Good luck and have fun with it!
I agree in having good equipment, but there is no way I will ever believe that an arrow that is off by 1-5 lbs will go from a 3" miss to missing a target unless we are talking extreme distances or 4" targets.
I have never spine checked my personal carbons but have checked wood arrows. I go through 7-10 dz carbon arrows a year as I will rarely spend more than a minute looking for an arrow and I love to shoot in thick areas so a break a bunch.
Every one of those arrows went where I was looking, but I might not have been looking at the right spot. Those things aren't changing unless they are damaged. They aren't going to fly good one time and then bad the next...unless the shooter is altering the load/ release program.
I love the thought though, can't get every arrow you shoot to hit the "10" ring every time? must need new arrows...hey ya'll, I sell new arrows. I have shot countless arrows from all the manufacturers that I sell and can't shoot the difference.
I watch guys shooting arrows grossly miss matched to there set up yet they claim they shoot like darts and to where they are looking.
I think that guys should tune the best they can then realize that when they miss with an arrow that normally flys well, that they should realize it wasn't the arrow..the bow..the target, but it was the archer.
Instead of wasting money on trying to "perfectly" match up a dz arrows, that money could be better spent seeking "professional" help. I mean shooting help yet some times, I think a psychiatrist is necessary especially for me.
BigJIm
QuoteOriginally posted by jt85:
Can somebody explain to me why you should not can't your bow while bate shaft tuning? Wouldn't you want to tune the way you shoot?
**ROOKIE HERE, so take it for what its worth**
When you cant the bow you could get a nock high reading when in fact it was a weak reading. In theory, you could tune the arrow with the bow canted, you would just have to remember that the results wouldn't be the exact same.
If your arrow is flying like a dart with a perfectly vertical bow, it will also fly like a dart with a perfectly horizontal bow.
simple Daniel, adjust the axis....12 oclock is the same as your cant is... Once your tuned it wont matter what cant you have. It may however effect your impact (different degrees of cant)
Something Byron as mentions in his book is setting the cant. Worth the read! Along with his tuning and fine tuning info.
In theory if you changed nothing but the cant you shouldn't change any tuning to any great degree....at least nothing you shouldn't be able to get out with a simple brace height adj.