I plan to hunt with this set up, deer only. 51# @ 28 super ghost, for me it will be 48# @ 27. It comes out to 9.7 gr per pound. Im not sure whuch broadhead I will shoot. I need 145 gr head to add to my 50 gr insert. What arrow weight are you planning on shooting and what head?
I'm planning on running my deer setup right around 590 grains, shooting 48# @27. I use 190 grain Simmons Treesharks with a 100 grain insert.
Since I don't have a long draw or high draw weight, I like a sharp head with heavy FOC and overall weight to get the job done.
You should be fine at 9.7 gpp!
What is your arrow set up Shreffler? Brand, length, spine? fletching?
I'll be using two arrow setups, mostly because I want to compare them. I shoot easton full metal jackets, cut to 29.5 inches, brass insert and 200 grain head. Total weight 630 grains out of my 53@28 recurve. I'm also shooting arrow dynamics hammerhead lites, also with brass inserts and 200 grain heads but a quarter inch shorter. I haven't weighed the ad's yet, but they're well over 700 grains. I draw 27.5 inches and both these setups fly flawlessly. 200 grain centaur battle axe, and simmons interceptors will be on the business end.
I haven't anywhere near the experience a lot of guys have on here, but really like heavier arrows. Some folks worry about trajectory loss, but it's something I can live with for the benefits.
All that said, your arrows with a scary sharp broadhead will be just fine, in my opinion.
Good luck!
Jake
CE heritage 350's total arrow weight 640grs 50#@26 with 190gr treesharks 50 grbrass inserts and 10 gr brass washers for turkey. I might change to single bevel Abowyers or some other one piece solid single bevel head for deer season, maybe.
I shoot lots of different arrows from lots of different bows with lots of different weights and brands of broadheads...diversity is the spice of life...I usually make a decision on a couple of combinations I will focus on just before hunting season
DDave
Sounds like Im a little on the light side compared to yall.
You planning to shoot some bionic deer that you think you need more than a 450 grain arrow...I shoot 900+ grain arrow for moose and elk purely because I can but right now I am trying to come up with a bow that will shoot 400 to 450 grain arrows for deer...I thought I had just bought one but it turns out to be close to 55 pounds at my 30 inch draw length
DDave
My arrows weigh in at 440 grains. I shoot a 40@28 Bear Montana longbow...and draw a touch over 27". Shot 5 deer with this setup last year..and they all had 2 holes in em.
Arrows are 29" easton 1816's...with a 125 grain magnus stinger.
Your arrow weight will be fine.
Dave, no I do not plan on that. I really just wanted to hear what yall are going to shoot deer with and seems like most people shoot well over 500 gr. I know some do go light and do fine, which I have been reassured by the results they gave me.
50@29.5" Sarrels Blueridge longbow
32" Gold Tip XT Hunter 55/75 with 100gr brass insert and 150gr point/broadhead (my broadheads are German Kinetic Silverflame XL's) and 3-4" parabolic feathers. 530gr total arrow weight.
Bisch
That sounds like a good weight to me bro... If you get too heavy the trajectory takes a nose dive on you..... I like to stay between 9.5 & 10.5 on my set ups..... i hunted elk the last few years with 55# @30" 570 grains. I'm setting up an ILF rig right now that goes from 44-47 @ 30" I'm going to use on deer turkey & pigs, and i'm trying to end up around 9.5 gpp...... but the jury is still out on actual gpp until i get bare shafted and dialed in.
VA Elite, I shoot a heavier arrow because if my shot is not so perfect on an animal I want just a little more penetration or running it into or through bone just incase I need it. Trajectory doesn't matter much to me because I keep all my shots at all animals within 15 yards and the weight doesn't hurt it can only help me. Quiets my bow and better penetration on less than desirable hits. For me, I like that extra weight to be there just incase I need it..... You will be fine shooting with your setup you could kill anything in North America with your setup. You don't need a 900 gr arrow unless you're shooting bionic elk lol!!
640 grains and VPA 3 blades, 250gr 1 1/4 and 300gr 1 1/2 inch wide and either 50gr or 100gr brass insert. Shots here are 20yds and under so trajectory is not to much of an issue. I can always get a heavier arrow to be quieter and love a quiet bow on our spooky whitetail.
I shoot Woodsmens, Zwickey Deltas, Stos and Abowyer Wapitis on Sweetland Forgewoods and Easton Axis shafts, about 600 grains total weight out of 50# ACSs or Morrison Shawnees. What I shoot depends on what happens to catch my eye before I go out.
I shoot them because you can't make a deer too dead. Like msbow said, it sure doesn't hurt anything. I shot a doe last season, my interceptor tipped fmj went in just above the point of the shoulder and shattered the offside femur before she snapped the last 8 inches off when she jumped. When I found her there were two giant holes in her, and the fractured offside leg sure didn't do much to aid in her escape.
Would a 466 grain arrow have done the same thing??? Perhaps?? The extra weight sure as heck didn't hurt my cause, so it will continue to be in my quiver.
Jake
I did some playing around on stu calculator. If I bumped my weight up, I don't get any more KE. In fact, It seems to go backwards. Now I don't know if 34# of KE from a 466 gr arrow is any different from 34# of KE from a 500 gr arrow. If I were to go heavier it would be to make the bow more quiet. I have shot some arrows well over 500 gr and they make the bow much quieter, but I don't think the bow is loud now.
KE is a meaningless figure when it comes to penetration. All it measures is the amount of energy transferred to the arrow from the bow. You want to look at momentum. A heavier object once set in motion is harder to stop than a lighter one. For instance, would you rather get hit with a pingpong ball going 200 fps or a golfball going 170 fps?
Screamin is right on the money! Momentum is what you want to look at as far as penetration goes.
I read so many arguments about KE vs MOM. It's about 50/50 on which one matters. Some of the articles get very scientific.
Yes, us can get pretty complicated, but most of it we all learned in high school. Have you read the ashby reports, Landon. I would highly suggest it. There is a whole forum on here dedicated to it. Of course very few of us are shooting asiatic water buffalo with our bows, but there is a ton of good information.
Jake
VA. I am heading south in a week armed with a new 56# bow Hill style and some arrows that end up at 475 grains.
Not what I was looking for, but I had a handful of these on the shelf and they bare shafted perfectly at that configuration. The other arrows I have were way too heavily spined for this bow, according to bare shaft testing.
These fly great, even at big yardage and they are gonna get me some meat, no doubt about it.
I will keep the shots close for as near perfection as I can get.
ChuckC
My arrows weigh 462gr and I'm shooting 46#, not that different from you
Ya know. . we all read everything we can, and there is great information out there. Read it and digest it.
But really, I am not shooting golf balls or ping pong balls. I am shooting a pointed stick, with a very sharp point. Pretty sure I can push it thru a deer's chest by hand.
We need to try to do the best we can, but really, you don't need 1000 grain arrows for deer. Now. . They sure won't hinder anything, but you don't need them.
What you need is to shoot close at a good, well chosen target, and hit it.
ChuckC
Yeh Chuck I have read that, and that is some really in depth research. But I think you are on point with sharp heads and close shots.
I think everyone would agree that you can push an arrow with a dull blade through tissue by hand. Super easy with a sharp broadhead, but it doesn't matter how sharp that head is if your trying to push it through a scapula, femur, rib, or any other bone you choose. Arrow weight, draw weight and broadhead design is what gets it through that bone not how sharp the broadhead is. In a perfect world all of our arrows would slide right between both ribs missing all bones completely. It's not often when bowhunting that everything works perfectly when shooting at animals with traditional equipment. If it was most of us would get bored real quick, I know I would
Yes but I have had (heavy, 600 plus grain) arrows go thru bone and not go thru bone. I don't take shots that would normally put the scapula in the way and the femur is in the rear end (yup, I even broke two of those in my day). Oh, and sharp matters a lot in penetration, even thru bone.
There is a line somewhere, it moves, but if you really want to make sure nothing goes wrong, you need a big heavy caliber rifle.
I myself (I can't speak for anybody else) want to use something that works very well under normal conditions. I want something that will go thru both sides of the chest under normal conditions.
I am not going to beef up and use 80+ pound bows and 1,000 grain arrows just in case I shoot the deer in the butt. I am not gonna use a 4" wide, six blade broadhead just in case I shoot the critter in the guts. I just choose to control the entire scenario better, and to learn how to do the "after the shot" stuff better.
As I get older and more experienced, I find it quite doable most times. I also find that I pass on some shots that I would have jumped at long ago.
I really personally dislike the statement "I had to take that shot, it was the only shot he gave me". Saw and heard that on a video by some famous guy and I remember it to this day.
ChuckC
I have been told here by those in the know 460 grain arrow from a 45# bow is more than enough for deer. I also understand most folks here use a tree stand so shots are going to be close. As for getting the "best" shot at that animal I totally agree. I get the impression sometimes reading threads from various sites killing the most critters means more than the hunt.
So what momentum numbers are we looking for to hunt deer? Is there any charts out there like they have for KE. Just curious. My arrows weigh 526gr. 30.5" GT 3555 175gr. Zwickey Delta 50gr. brass insert out of a 50# longbow.
stu's calculator says I get .39 Momentum..
Chuckc there are a many things that can go wrong during a shot at an animal even in a perfect situation. I'm not saying you need a heavy arrow so you can shoot deer at any angle or whatever the case maybe.
I like a heavier arrow just incase my release is off or string hits something the deer moves at the moment I shoot the list goes on and on of what can happen during a shot.
Everything being equal the heavier arrow WILL penetrate deeper even if it's very little. And that little bit could mean the difference in recovering an animal or not.
You are right a sharp head is a very critical part of it, but you take a very sharp blade like a Magnus drive it into bone and the tip fails, like I've had them do many times. A dull tanto tip single bevel head WILL out perform that sharp broken Magnus in bone, because that tip is designed not to break or fold over on bone contact, wether it's cutting edges are dull or not. I am NOT saying it's ok to hunt with a dull head!!
I would guess, and it's only a guess, that more deer have been killed with hunting arrows in the 8.5 to 10 gr weight class than heavier efoc arrows.
Njloco, ide say it's been a whole lot more deer killed with 8 to 10 gr very low efoc than heavy arrows with high efoc. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It gets the job done. A sharpened stick out of a 35# self bow will get the job done also, a field tipped arrow with a very well placed shot will get the job done. Why even use broadheads when sharp sticks field tips and stones will work.
Theres things we can do as hunters to get it done cleaner, quicker, and kill more efficiently. That's why I shoot solid well built broadheads a heavier arrow and a 50# bow instead of 35#'s
funny thing is, according to stu's, I can go from 466 to 620 gr and only pick up 1 lb of KE..doesn't tell me MOM. I guess if I wanted more umph..I would have to shoot a heavier bow, but I don't think I will be doing that any time soon.
Longbow58, to figure momentum you really need to know your arrow speed which is kinda hard to do without a chrono, but you can go to archerycalculator.com and use their bow arrow speed calculator to estimate your arrow speed then take those numbers and use their momentum calculator
Its all a trade off. Speed vs weight, all my tradbows like to eat 9.5 to 12.5 GOP. Less than that and they get loud and jumpy. I like a heavy foc after seeing my penitratuon with the same bow and arrow weights. A few extra inches in a block target with the heavy foc arrow. My attempts at light arrows shot flatter though. So you just need to find the combo that you feel confident in.
Zwickey No Mercy with 125 grain adaptor=250 grains up front on a GT55-75 with 3 grains per inch weight tube shot out of my 54# Holm-made Osprey long bow does the trick.
VA check out Pat B's thread "light bows".
ChuckC
I saw that, that was some crazy penetration.
Msbow, I will go to my club and run my arrows through the chrono and get my speed. Then I take I can go to the website you posted to get my arrow momentum?
Msbow, I will go to my club and run my arrows through the chrono and get my speed. Then I take I can go to the website you posted to get my arrow momentum?
VA if you are worried about their weight, Open them up and put some weight tubes or string inside them. That should add as much as maybe 100 grains and shouldn't affect the spine enough to matter.
Of course, check one first to be certain before correcting all of them.
ChuckC
Longbow58, running it through the chrono would be best. On that site I listed you can use their arrow speed calculator to estimate your arrow speed without the use of a chrono. It is an estimation of your arrow speed.
Then use the estimated speed they give you and enter it in the momentum calculator they have to figure momentum and kenetic energy.
I would still shoot your bow through the chrono so you can know your exact speed. Then you could compare and see if that websites arrow speed calculator estimation was close to what your speed really is.
No worries Chuck, I think it will be fine. A little quieter would be nice, but not too concerned about that.
I think AZ hit the nail on the head with his opinion !
QuoteOriginally posted by Msbow:
Longbow58, to figure momentum you really need to know your arrow speed which is kinda hard to do without a chrono, but you can go to archerycalculator.com and use their bow arrow speed calculator to estimate your arrow speed then take those numbers and use their momentum calculator
Hey bro.... that archery calculator for arrow speed estimate is worthless for use for traditional equipment.
GT 55/75 full length with a 50 gr brass insert and a 170 gr broadhead. Gives me a 500 gr arrow out of a 55@30" Hatfield Takedown
I have been using GT Trads and Camos, 7595; 200 grain head and 22 grain insert. Total arrow weight is between 588 and 600 grains. In the last week I have been playing around making heavier arrows. Using the same 7595's w/ brass inserts, aluminum footings, and 250 grain heads -- total arrow weight around 750grains. I really like how they fly out of my bows which are around 60lbs at my draw. I'll use them on short shots at hogs and maybe elk -- if I ever get to hunt them!
So, would 430gr be enough in a 45# bow? That is 9.5gpp which suppose to be a good match for my #45 Grizzly. These also shoot very well out of this bow. However it seems like most would say that is too light.
I'm thinking a deer would be in a world of hurt with that set up right there.
ChuckC
I have Zwickey Eskilites that with the screw-in adapter run 145-150 grains.
They flew very well for me last season. Easily sharpened to a great edge.
Did not get to field test them but their reputation leaves no doubt as to their effectiveness.
So far as arrows, I started out with GoldTip .400, 31" with standard inserts, but switched to a 30" XX75 2016. I also went to the glue in broadhead adapters for the Zwickey heads vs the screw-in for the aluminum arrows.
If you could try regular insert and 200gr. Thatll bump you upabout 20gr heavier. Just depends how it tunes to it.
I just finished bare shaft tuning today. every shot with a bare shaft was a tad weak from 5-24 yards. Just a tad. With the 5" fletching, they were spot on. I think, I may have it dialed in. However, my fletching have some serious damage. Im not sure if most of it came before I changed the size of the string or not. I have two marks on the side plate and the shelf. I put lip stick on the plate and shelf and shot several arrows and never had as much as a pin point of lip stick on the feathers.. I don't know what to think..
VA, there is a good chance your feathers are not hitting either location. See if you can find a slo mo video of archers paradox to see how the arrow moves. ( try to see a trad bow, not a compound bow)
ChuckC
will do that now
I saw it, I was thinking it could be the arrow itself making the marks. Is this not a good thing? Arrows are 29" 3555 golf tips. 27" draw 48#..
In some respect it is inevitable for contact to be made. Depends, though, on where and how much. I'll let others comment cause I am no guru regarding that topic.
ChuckC
The past few years I've been shooting Easton FMJ 500's out of my RER XR and Bob LEE Classic takedowns. Total weight is around 470 grains and use the old Bear Razorheads with broadhead adapters which weigh out around 150 grains.
I am shooting poc 28" with zwiecky delta at 500 grs out of a 50 lb recurve
I shoot Magnus Mag I at 160 grains and my arrow weight is right at 630 for a 63# @27 3/8 MOAB.
Lord have mercy, I think my points weigh what your arrow does. My arrows run 1700 or more grains at 38" and I draw 80+@36". It's a full Manchu hunting setup. I've dug a foot of arrow out of the ground after it went full through my target. A 76# bow of mine with a similar setup put an arrow through both sides of a car door and dimpled out the metal on the outside of the opposite door.
For your setup, finding a few more grains up front will help you, as you're gonna need the EFOC. Getting it to 10GPP with point weight ought to get you an arrow that will drop anything in the US. Your setup is plenty efficient, but I think those few extra grains won't go amiss. I shoot mine just as much for historical preservation as I do because a 36" draw is standard for the equipment.
Sorry, double post.
Man are you Shaq? LOL! with my 150 gr broadhead i will be like 9.9 gpp..
halfseminole,don't they look for missing telephone poles in your neiborhood? 1700 grains that's wild! I'm going to switch out my 50 grain inserts with 100's to add some more weight up front, will put me right around 600.