Maybe the subtitle should be "why I am coming to like aluminum more and more" OK here's the deal. Maybe I'm a bit too trusting but I ordered a dozen shafts in the 50-55 spine range from a dealer who shall remain unnamed. Being too naïve I made up the dozen arrows and shot them some. Out of some of my recurves they were just OK and in others abissmal.Same for my longbows.Being nasty weather here today and not much going on I decided to go thru all my woods and spine them. Spine them ad mark the weight right on them. Of the dozen mentioned above I had 2 that were in the 50-55 range. One was 55 and one was 54, of the rst they ranged from 57- 69 # 4 were well above 60# (69 and 67). Yes I know I should have spined them before making them up but what if I had ? What would I do with them ? Send them back ? Doubtful. Why can't the dealers be more accurate in their spine ranges ? Is it that time consuming for them to spine them accurate ? It is their product by the way, isn't the job on them to some degree ? What are some of you finding on this matter? Am I the only one ?
The dealer must have gotten them mixed up. Before they got so expensive, I once received a thousand from the Nocking Point and I'm sure they came directly from Rose City and they were very accurately spined. Going through a hundred or so, I don't remember having a one out of the 5# range so I just didn't test the rest as I was just going to break and lose them on squirrels anyway.
That doesn't normally happen. There had to be a mix up on the dealers end. I always spine my new wooden arrows and every time they were within the specified spine range.
Sorry to hear that, Tim. It's things like this that make folks think that wood arrows are crap. I don't expect electronically spined shafts to be as perfect as my hand spined shafts, but any more than a couple pounds off should go back to the supplier, even after being made into arrows. It just isn't acceptable.
Proper spine is critical to to good arrow flight. Yes, hand spining takes time, is rather boring work and adds to the cost of shafts, but to me is worth it.
I have been lucky with my purchases of shafts. Granted, I have never made large numbers of arrows, but when I pay attention to the grain when I put on the nocks, they perform well. Flinttim, has this been a pattern of events or a single bad batch? Did you bring this up with the manufacturer? They ought to be willing to replace such a poorly matched set of shafts with product that matches your original request. I am sorry to hear this happened to you, because wood arrows can be so much fun.
I've had it happen too, thats why there are only a couple places I'll buy my shafts from.
Try... RMSGear...
... mike ...
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgroundstalker:
Try... RMSGear...
... mike ...
what mike said
Wow - 50/69 spine range from a "50/55" set? That is pretty wild. I'd call the supplier and describe the situation; at least to hear what they have to say about that... might be a better response than you expect.
I certainly respect not wanting to mention any names, but I wonder, as I'm sure most of us do, where they came from. Curious though, what type of wood these shafts are? I'll be surprised if they're doug firs.
Keep us posted if there's any news.
QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgroundstalker:
Try... RMSGear...
... mike ...
what mike said [/b]
X3
They will also match the weights if you request it.
My experience over the past 5 years with wood shafts has driven me away from wood arrows. The price is comparable with carbon and the quality is very poor. When I was shooting competition I needed top quality wood arrows for many of the classes I shot but as I no longer compete, I have no driving need.
Good Luck finding what you expect.
Mike
I think this issue is mostly on the dealer but still partly on the shaft manufacturer.
If the dealer is selling matched shafts then it is their responsibility and promise to go through each shaft to spine and weight it. Shafts within the specs are then bundled together.
If the dealer is not selling matched shafts then you're going to get whatever they grab and bundle together. Those shafts can easily be a long ways apart in their specs.
On the manufacturers end it behooves them to be as accurate as possible with what they send out. If a dealer orderes 300 50/54 shafts then I'd expect pretty much all of those shafts to be within 50/54 spine. If they aren't then that's going to affect what the dealer sends out to his customers.
I know a couple shaft manufacturers I've dealt with that hand spine every shaft they produce. That means there is a knowledgable and responsible individual properly orienting the shafts on their spine machine to get reliable and consistant results. I also know of a large manufacturer that spines their shafts on an automatic machine that most certainly does not properly orient the shafts on the tester. When I've checked shafts from that company there is no way they could be called matched and many were far outside the specs that they were sold at.
There are good wood shafts out there. I've used quite a few dozens that had straight grain from one end to the other, were matched in spine as well as matched in weight. But I've gotten those matched groups by going through each shaft to spine and weigh it before grouping it with other shafts for the best results.
Guy
The last FEW HUNDRED I bought from surewood were within the 5 lb range I asked for. I double checked every shaft, as I bought my own spine tester. I bought my own spine tester so not to have the problem you described. Now weight matched. That's another story. They can be a hundred grains off. But I did not pay for that service which is offered. I sort them by weight myself.
It's a bummer. You shouldn't have to buy extra tools like I did. But I did it because I was curious to know how it worked, not cause I didn't trust the wood distributor.
The only wood I buy these days is from Surewood or Forrester and their stuff is spot on. You should not be getting those variances from anybody. Let the seller know even if you do not return them.
Surewood has never let me down.
I've only purchased from Surewood twice, as I use mostly carbons now. Both times the product was exactly what I expected and in fact, I never straightened a single shaft, they came that straight. I will buy from them again as soon as I have more need for wood shafts.
ChuckC
I'm finishing up a dozen of the Surewoods. He tapered them for me as well. Nice shafts.
My 2 doz Doug Fir shafts from Surewood Steve were the best quality shafts I have seen in years.
I sort my shafts into true two pound groups. The only dealer who does this RMSG. Any where else you will have to buy in bulk and sort them yourself. The 6 pound groups adopted as industry standard is too much variance for archers of average skill.
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
My experience over the past 5 years with wood shafts has driven me away from wood arrows. The price is comparable with carbon and the quality is very poor. When I was shooting competition I needed top quality wood arrows for many of the classes I shot but as I no longer compete, I have no driving need.
Good Luck finding what you expect.
Mike
That was my exact experience until I ordered some Surewoods. Restored my faith in wood shafts.
I shoot both wood and carbons. I have recently started playing with bamboo... A whole new learning curve.
I agree with bigbadjohn. Its a shame you don't have more choices for closely matched shafts.
I have to imagine that any of the smaller dealers would be happy to sell you the shafts you need. If you want them all in two lb spine groups and within three grains of one another it's certainly possible... for a price.
I'd never ask that of one of the larger shops like 3R, they're just not that custom oriented. That's why I like smaller shops, I get to place my order with the owner, who is also the guy who pulls the order and takes it to the post office. You can't beat service like that.
Guy
Surewood...hands down....
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
Wow, absolutely unbelievable, call the dealer and let him know. I have never had that happen. I always check the spine against the grain, so the nock goes on perpendicular to the grain. Raptor Archery, Surewood and others have always been reliable.
I haven't bought shafts in quite a while...did some trading a few years back and got enough to last me a good while...
Makes me think of an order I got, probably 15 years ago (may be the same place). I bought some shafts at what I thought was a bargain. Got them in, they were awful...2 or 3 of them were cracked! I called the store and the woman that answered said "well, you DID order "select"!". I think they are still in business...they don't get my business though.
QuoteOriginally posted by monterey:
QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgroundstalker:
Try... RMSGear...
... mike ...
what mike said [/b]
X3
They will also match the weights if you request it. [/b]
Danny must be talking to himself after weighing and spining all their cedar shafts to close tolerances, but their shafts are very well matched.
I returned to aluminum in the last 2 years. Still that safest arrow material out there to shoot. :thumbsup:
I bought some parallel cedars off the Eguess from somebody selling a number of spines by various clump sizes. What I got was obviously straight from the cheap lots of Rose City. I was told that Rose City spins their shafts when doing spines. I never have figured out how that could work. Nine of the 36 lot were perfect and identical, a few must have come from the most curved cedar tree ever. How and where one buys wood shafts is crucial. Other than cheap 36 lot, I have not run into a bad wood shaft in years. About half of my hunting arrows are now tapered doug firs or tapered cedars. I have over a hundred 1918s that fit my bows perfect, but when it gets cold out wood is warmer on the finger.
I've been burned enough to know that if they're cheap they're cheap for a reason. You WILL NOT get a quality shaft from the the bargain bin.
Crookeity bendy cedar shafts make really good tomato stakes.
In the past we would purchase shafts by the 1000 count box and my wife would spend hours in front of the spine tester. It was COMMON to get 25% of them that spined heavy or light. Sometimes it was closer to 33%. We sell shafts as "factory" or "premium" and we always explain to the customer that Factory shafts are the first 12 we grab out of the box. I had a very hard time recommending "Factory" at the time. The supplier is doing much better now and I would say we get more like 90% within spine.
I still recommend "premium" if you care about your arrows.
Surewoods are spot-on...
and YES, if you didn't get what you ordered, especially something as specific as spine on wood shafts, you should have called the dealer...it's a ridiculously serious detail...I would be shocked if they didn't apologize and make good...
I was sitting here wondering if it's possible to consistently purchase shafts matched within a 3# spine and 20g wt spread, and do it year after year. I'm talking about premium 11/32 tapered shafting. I wouldn't want to check spine myself.
Variations in shafting quality and performance were partly behind my decision to stop using wood. I shoot the exact same (carbon) shaft year after year now, and that consistency is something I value. If I ever move back to woods I'd be searching for the same.
Just a lesson learned. Some lessons cost a lot of $$$ some are cheaper. This falls in the latter. I'm not out a bunch and will check closer the next time.
I stopped buying POC shafts through the mail years ago. Now, I buy all my shafts at trad shoots where dealers will let folks go through their bulk shafts and select their own. I look for straight grain first. Most provide a scale so I can get the weights close. When I get them home, I recheck spine and weight and separate them into appropriate groups. I usually go through 300 or more shafts to find a dozen with the straight grain I want.
Did order some Surewood shafts a year or two ago. Spot on in weight and grain, and straight grain as well.
What everyone needs to remember that wood will never be as closely matched as carbon or aluminum. You could in theory get 12 shafts in a dozen that came from 12 different trees that all grew at different elevations and growing conditions. We go through several thousand shafts to get 40 or 50 dozen matched sets. Then we save the balance for the next run to hopefully match them up. This is after grading so we can offer only "shootable" shafts whether is be our "hunter" or "premium" grades. We have considered offering shafts with in a 2 or 3 pound spine range at a higher price, but the problem becomes one when a customer wants 3 or 4 dozen of a weight say 52-53#. Then the next guy gets a batch of 50-55# with no 52-53 in it. It may cause more problems in the long run. We are three retired guys that work at this part time, so we do NOT produce a million shafts, if we did we may offer more options. Ninety percent of our business is matched dozens and we try to keep is as close as we can. For the people who have tried our shafts and made the nice comments, we say thank you!!!
"The state of the wood shaft business"...is in good hands with guys like Roarke, Bob and Steve who continue to carry the torch...aka the Surewood guys. Their commitment to putting out quality matched shafts starts with logs and is carried through to the finished shafts. They do it right.
Surewood would get my vote , as their quality is outstanding, if they could fulfill one of two criteria. If they sold matched shafts or if they could produce a quantity that I could sort my own. However they are always sold out and rarely have bulk shafts available. It looks like the other qualiity shaft producers like Hildrebrand and Rogue River are also starting to make douglas fir so maybe the availability with start to open up. I do think douglas fir is going to be the material of choice for disciminating archers.
Surewood, Wapiti, Hildebrand, and Kootenai (recently purchased Allegheny Mountain Arrow Woods) are all top quality producers and tend to give you better than you thought you ordered. As for non-producers, my favorite to deal with is Tim at Braveheart....he always goes out of his way to make sure he receives and sells only the best from the producers. I'd say the state of the wood shaft business is in great hands!
Flinttim...my experience exactly with wood shafts for more than a few years now. I stopped bothering with it ..carbon or aluminum for me now.
I think Green has it right about the wood arrows, as far as my own experience so far.
I call and ask about the spine and weight range I'm looking for, the folks tell me what they have on hand in that range, and if they fit I order a dozen premium shafts.
I've only made maybe 10 or 12 dozen in the past few years, but spines were always within the specified range, and weights were within maybe a 15grn or so spread, and mostly within 10.
I think Larry is spot on. I'm as frugal as anyone when it comes to buying arrows and have bought 2nds for years. Sure, you can get 6-8 decent arrows and a few stumpers for the money, but premium really is the way to go.
That reminds me, I have to call Surewood right now. There, I called dibs on the 55pound 360 grainers.
I need to order some Surewoods too.
I like wood and ha e found though reading everything I can that you can make it into any thing you want it to be. While my arrows are not quite as straight as carbons they are very straight. As far as matching weights and spine they are within 1 lbs plus or minus in spine and 5 grains of weight to one another.
Wood shafts are what you want to make of them and that is how much work you are willing to put into them. Generally I will put 2 to 3 days into building an arrow if I am building a match set even longer. I started building my own because I could not buy what I needed.
Trial and error, yeah there has been a lot of that, and every bit of it has been offset by what I can make an arrow do and the comments that I receive from people about my arrows, not to mention the satisfaction of taking wild game with them.
I keep reading how carbon is cheaper than wood. Other than a three broadhead arrow mistake I made in my back yard last fall, my math on my arrow expenses still says that wood is cheaper than carbon. Besides, there is just no way that I am going to shoot aluminum or carbon at pheasants in the air and rabbits in weeds or deep snow. There will always be a need for me to have some very cheap or very old wood shafts in my quiver. It doesn't take fancy to kill a pheasant, it just has to fly perfect, some new fat feathers on a crusty old shaft is a pretty thing when it makes supper.