Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Msbow on February 11, 2015, 10:39:00 PM
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Im partial to making,building and hunting with homemade turkey calls. If you have any you have built lets see some pics?
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Here is a box turtle shell call i made about a few years ago. I found the glass while deer hunting it was an old bottle with a fairly flat bottom and thick,so i cut it and epoxied it to the shell. When i found this shell it was bleached white. I took linseed oil and rubbed it down to darken it up.I killed 3 turkeys last year using only this call it makes very soft calls. (http://i.imgur.com/zVRvhyO.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/1GNtpxp.jpg)
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Im partial to wingbone calls myself i really enjoy making them!! (http://i.imgur.com/Ip9GS2V.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/bSAI0QY.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/dFRiP3P.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/vGylws8.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/gkJsSSb.jpg)
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i plan on doing a how to on making wingbone calls like this. I just happen to be out of wingbones at the moment, but hopefully that will change soon and ill do a how to.
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I love that turtle she'll call.. What a sweet idea! And those wing bone calls are works of art.
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I've built a run of Cost style boxes that came out decent. Still need to work on the checkering, I was happy with the sound. And some slate over glass pots that sound good as well.
Boxes are walnut over poplar, slates are a 'zillion' sided (no lathe) walnut pot, nothing fancy.
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Not sure how to shrink this...pulled it off my FB page LOL!
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Shed we found in the garden after we returned from chasing birds.
(https://scontent-1.11404.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/21317_4772295707277_533513374_n.jpg?oh=ea4e0dc02dfadb69aabb2514a10ceb3e&oe=5562D125)
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MSbow, I love the looks of those wingbones!
A wingbone call is a go to for me, and I have come to love Fred Cox calls.
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Thanks Jcupice and Tradbrew! Akdan, those are some good looking box calls! I plan on trying to make a few different box calls or pot and peg calls out of wood at some point. I just always get side tracked with the wingbones. That turtle shell call in the pic is nothing fancy I made it strictly to call in turkeys. I plan on making a fancy turtle shell call I just haven't came up with any ideas that I like yet. The longer wingbone calls I hang them at the bottom of my turkey fan mounts. The shorter ones I carry hunting from time to time.
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Msbow those wingbones are sweet. Turtle shell is pretty awesome also. Got a few wings in the freezer will wait for your how to! Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks longbow58, it will be awhile before I do a how to cause I'm out of bones, I've only done it with wild turkey's. I'm not sure if the wings at the grocery store have the big bones or not? When I get a hold of some ill do it. I have plenty of turtle shells just no turkey wings lol.
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I snapped a wingbone this past spring I really liked. A buddy in wi made. I'll have to pull it out and grab pics. He did a pretty good how to on wingbones. The one secret to a good bone imho is filling the small end with epoxy and drilling out a small hole. Much easier to run that way than wide open.
Those feathers sure do look snazzy Ms!
I had looked into getting a box turtle shell for a shell pot call but came across a pile of red tape in the subject. They sure do look awesome!
The boxes are pretty easy overall. The checkering was not. At least in poplar. I have some sitka spruce and 100 yr old cypress to play with for this year.
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Those boxes look really nice.
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ive tried it like you're friend does years ago when I couldn't operate one well and would try to make it work by regulating the size of the hole. As I got more experienced with it those small holes wouldn't let me do real loud calls or fast calls so now I just go with the hole i make and regulate it with my lips to fit whatever sounds I'm making.
What was the deal with the turtle shells, I dunno if y'all have box shell turtles in Alaska??
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Basically it came down to not all states allowing folks to have the shells. Though yours may if you crossed into a state that didn't you were on the wrong side of the law. So I opted out of buying any shells at this point.
I don't have an issue with volume though getting speed before running out of breath has eluded me since I was a kid. I know guys who supposidly can gobble. The hole isn't needed but it sure is nice! Especially for those learning on one! I had a crude purr on my old bone I can't quite do with the drilled hole. I have a a bunch in the freezer I need to get building.
For that matter since going through puberty my owl hoots a little ragged too lol!
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Now that you mention that about the turtle shells. I vaguely rember reading about some states not allowing people to have them.
I've never been able to gobble on a wingbone I tried but quickly gave up on trying to get it right.
How do you round the bottom of your paddle on your calls and does the calling side of the box also have an angle on it?
I figured more people on here would have posted pics of their homemade calls. I was wanting to see some calls lol!
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Its not talked about much, They do look pretty cool and I've wanted one for many years.
I will gag myself trying to gobble, its quite comical.... Tube calls are easy to gobble on if I really feel the need to do it.
Rounding I took the lid, traced the profile on the end I wanted (used an old lynch top). Set the angle on my table saw to cut just outside it and slabbed off what I could in a couple passes adjusting the angle. Than smoothed it off with a my 49/50 and some sand paper. its not perfect but it works. Getting the "wings (w)" to sit right has been part of the fun, centered and even on the apex of the lid. Most guys building generally have a stock pile of lids, like pegs on pots, they all don't work equally well.
I kind of figured there was more as well. actually I know there's more we've had similar threads in years past. Butcher block pot calls rings a bell and a scratch box call post or two.
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I'm really liking that box turtle glass call. I'm not sure if were aloud to have the shells in posession here either but man i run into lots of the empty shells where i hunt. Id never kill one but man it'll be hard to pass on the next one i see.lol Surely just one wouldn't hurt. They're like squirells around here! Thick!
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Westkyhunter,
From what all I've read it's not illegal to possess one. You just can't buy,sale,trade,or barter the shells in Ky. It's the same way here, I've been picking up shells for years. Ide call your state wildlife agency just to make sure tell them you found one and wanna keep it. I call ours all the time, I learned a long time ago don't go buy what people say. For example, I've heard here since I was a little kid from 100's of people say you can't gig bullfrogs you gotta hand grab them. Well one call to the MDWFP solved that. They said that's there #1 asked question. They said you can gig,shoot,arrow or any other method you wanna use as long as you don't go over the limit. I still have people tell me you can't do that. I just give a little chuckle and say alright.
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AKDan,
Did you make those strikers, with that call in that pic with the shed in it, if so. Did you make the dowels or buy them??
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Pegs I bought parts and assembled. Pots were done on the drill press and belt sander. I need to get a lathe for doing goose calls, rounding pots, and one piece pegs. I'm not fond of gluing up pegs. Reckon I loose about 20% in duds. Or spend a bunch of time sanding to get things to fit.
Box blanks were ripped on the table saw. Fine kerf blade for the accent grooves or route both works. Routed the bases for the box, not required. Drill press the recess to waste the bulk than chisels to finish the sound chamber. Checkering was chisels straight edge and a exacto knife. Ripped the accents on the tablesaw used a drill press thickness sanding jig to get them to fit the kerf.
Someone asked for the box dimensions. I'll post them here. Sorry long hours at work.
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I build quite a few wingbones. Exchange them to folks that send the wings to me...they get a turkey call and I get the primaries for building arrows.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/treekiller/DSC_9929_zpsdnicftzv.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/treekiller/media/DSC_9929_zpsdnicftzv.jpg.html)
I also build some combo call using turkey bones and small buck antlers.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/treekiller/antlerbone2_zps2j8fv4ld.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/treekiller/media/antlerbone2_zps2j8fv4ld.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/treekiller/combo-call_zps2m6yeuqr.gif) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/treekiller/media/combo-call_zps2m6yeuqr.gif.html)
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Wow, you guys build some great looking calls!
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Thanks Gen273
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Thanks Msbow. I'll give them a call. It'll give me something else to keep an eye out for while shed hunting. Heck sometimes i think gathering is as much fun as the hunting part.lol
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No problem Westkyhunter, I enjoy looking for sheds too, it's a blast trying to figure out where a buck would have lost his bones. Could he of lost them on the other side of that big ditch after jumping it? Could he of lost one ducking under those low hanging branches over there on that other trail? Maybe he lost them while feeding in that field at night after a little rough housing. Good times!!!
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Yes indeed! You check all those places that look perfect and then when you about give up and start to move on to the next area all worn out and your legs are worn out and need a break you halfway glance over in the most unlikely spot and bam!!! There it is!! Ha ha you just never know. So addictive. I'm ready to get started the last week of this month and now were supposed to get a bunch of snow tonight and tomorrow.lol
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The snow could be a good thing. We don't have snow here in Ms, but It seems like a fresh fallen shed would be easy to spot in the snow. I haven't been yet this year, I'll start next weekend while it's still squirrel season so I can take my bow. I find most of my sheds on public land and I like to stump shoot. They don't allow you to carry a bow unless there is an open season.
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I make a few pot calls :) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/Palmer234/Bob%20Pics/66728DA6-C2B7-4406-93CB-50C85A755F93_zpssuvl3swp.jpg) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/Palmer234/Bob%20Pics/AEC853C8-0036-436F-9C92-3602F9BFFDF6_zpsor0ufdyh.jpg) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/Palmer234/Bob%20Pics/3208CDB8-A696-4C92-A598-36A33B4C8BED_zpssjovgqv6.jpg)
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Tree Killer, great looking Wing Bone callers, I'll send you some wings for one of those, just gotta get some first!!! :pray:
Fine looking calls, all of you, some sweet Boxes too, just gotta love a good Box, just as Turkey as you can get.
RW
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Bob,
Those are some beautiful pot calls! What are those 2 in the back ground of those pots in front of that shed?
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Msbow, That's an all wood grunt call (long one) and an elk call I tune up for sika deer hunting in Maryland.
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Msbow I'm not sure about looking in the snow. Some of the places are pretty treacherous without it. Also im afraid i'll cut an oversize buck track and have to follow it. Then four hours later realize he's one of the few that carries them til april.lol As if id be able to tell. We did get 10"-12". Think I'm gonna hold out til the last week this month if i can. I've seen a few half racks the last week but several are still holding on. We got some extreme cold temps all this week too so I'm thinking its gonna put more stress on them and possibly get them dropping more.
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They sure look good Bob! I don't blame ya westky I wouldn't wanna get hurt right before turkey season because I was wondering around in the snow looking for a shed.
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(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jmb1221/E567332F-351E-4AB2-B275-F8A97E7AC6C4_zpsru7owwi2.jpg)
Here are some Pocket one sliders I am making with persimmon lids.
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I really like the scratch box JoeBuck makes. They sweet talkers. RC
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/turkeys/IMG_0518_zpsffbbfec6.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/turkeys/IMG_0518_zpsffbbfec6.jpg.html)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/turkeys/IMG_0520_zps95c2c5b3.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/turkeys/IMG_0520_zps95c2c5b3.jpg.html)
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Joebuck, those little box calls look like they would be handy to tote in the turkey woods, they look good too! Is that call in the middle black walnut? Or did you stain it?
RC that's a nice bird, good shooting!...even better you got to take it with one of joebucks calls.
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Here is one I made and a little how to on making a box call.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=119664;p=1#000000
(http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee465/buckskinbows/P1252310.jpg)
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MS. Black call is poplar box. I fool everyone with that wood.
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Those are all really nice looking calls guys!
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rmorris, thanks for posting that link. It will come in handy
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You guys continue to amaze me - fantastic looking calls.... reminds me of the DIY wood arrow builds - simply amazing stuff.
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Good looking boxes!
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JC any more info or better pictures of that Joe Buck call.
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That turtle shell call is impressive! Heck all the calls are
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Thanks speedbump, it makes very soft calls especially if you use a softer material striker. You can also make very loud calls on it with hard material strikers. Being that it's glass if it gets the smallest amount of moisture on it you can't call at all. The turkeys sure do like it!
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Well not as pretty as the work of art other posted but these are simple wing bones. They are held together with pine pitch glue. The wings are from a Christmas turkey, so a domestic bird.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/gillk/photobucket-12553-1358734169417.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/gillk/media/photobucket-12553-1358734169417.jpg.html)
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Those are some nice calls. Much talent with this group!
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KellyG,
How do you make the pine pitch? Do you just collect pine sap or something else?
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Originally posted by Msbow:
Im partial to wingbone calls myself i really enjoy making them!! (http://i.imgur.com/Ip9GS2V.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/bSAI0QY.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/dFRiP3P.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/vGylws8.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/gkJsSSb.jpg)
I'm a wingbone call maker also. I like that.
Did you spray with clear coat then apply feather while it was wet then recoat? To keep feather wrapped around bone and in place? I'm going to take use idea. I have two calls ready to be put together waiting right now. Thanks!
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Yes just make sure it's tacky and not wet. Wash your hands before you do it you don't want your clear coat to have dirty finger prints in it. Have plenty of feathers you are going to screw up some of them till you get the hang of it. Do you have any pics of calls you have already done??
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Yeah I do but not on a photo hosting site.
What I do to most of mine is scrimshaw or cheat and use the high grade permanent ink marker. called pigma micron .22mm you get it at art store. They usually use these for art technique called stippling.
Just be sure the bone is clean of dust or bone dust from cutting or they will clog and do clog easy. It takes a steady hand but if you can draw. You can do some amazing work on those bones. Make sure it is dry before applying a clear coat. Also give mat clear a try. Gives the call a deep frosty look.
I use gorilla glue epoxy to glue bones. It works great for me and is thick. It crazy how one call to another can have a completely differant sound and pitch.
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Redshaft,
All of my calls have been put together with Gorilla epoxy, I like it. Are all of your joints tapered or square? Do you whiten your bones leave them natural or stain? Ide like to sign my calls but haven't figured a way to do it yet, it would have to be white writing. I don't want to just sign over the finished clear coat. Ide prefer to have it under the final coat. I thought about taking a small piece of clear plastic, signing it then inlaying it on top of my feathers then clear coating over the top of it and hope it blends in the coat without being noticeable. Any experience with something like that?
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I asked about the taper because if you want to use feathers your joints will need to be tapered. It will also make wrapping your thread a lot smoother and easier.
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I whiten the bones, usually 30 or 40% peroxide paste. Same as I used to use when I did skulls. sometimes I stain for a rustic look. Those permanent pens would be great for signing your name. They do come in differant colors. Possibly find a color that stands out against dark background.
I have done both tapper and left square at the joints. I have used flat waxed thread(210 I belive, pretty heave and wraps flat. . Kind used to tie Bucktail jigs for fishing and hair flies.
I'm sure you could inlay anything. Brass or copper would look amazing. Done like they do on fine custom flintlock rifles.
I still want to do a snake skin wrap on one also.
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MS I Pat b gave me the recipe and it is dried pine sap not the runny stiff, a bit of wood ash and bees wax. I looked it up on google also. I know you add enough wax to make it where you can dent it with your finger nail. I don't remember how much as but it was not much. And I made a bit a few years ago and man it last.
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Thanks kellyg I believe I'm going to try to make some of that pine pitch
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It acts like a low temperature hot melt glue. Bonds very well. melts easy with a lighter. It will get runny fast and set fast. I find holding it over heat and just keep turning the call filled it the gaps nice. Once it cools a bit you can mold it like putty.
I bet you could use it as a filler and get a nice taper with it.
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I'm working on one. Need some slate.
(http://i.imgur.com/X3UR4FF.jpg)
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I make all my own junk...
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3933/15602007446_eb651d5ac5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pLGnfo) 005 (https://flic.kr/p/pLGnfo) by Lonehowl (https://www.flickr.com/people/31777870@N04/) , on Flickr
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3933/15627983092_e60ba5eec7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pNZuUm) 010 (https://flic.kr/p/pNZuUm) by Lonehowl (https://www.flickr.com/people/31777870@N04/) , on Flickr
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Shell was pretty loose. Super glued real bad spots, sprayed with appliance epoxy to keep it together, painted it box turtle style :)
(http://i.imgur.com/J5kNVp7.jpg)
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Kellyg,
Have you ever noticed on real hot summer days if the pitch gets soft?
Nice looking calls Lonehowl.
Dhermon85, that shell will make a fine looking call! That's a problem I run into is finding slate for shell calls. Have you thought about using something besides slate?
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I've thought about glass,nor aluminum, just prefer slate. In my mind, I think I'm better at calling with it. I've found some replacement slate for pot calls, they're just not big enough. I'm working on that...
You got any ideas?
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dhermon85,
There's tons of materials you could use. Just depends on what you're taste are, finely sanded plexiglass, copper, wood,ceramics, and you can even use fresh oyster shells the inside not the outside. Some people say you need a sound board for turtle shell calls. I don't think you need a sound board, mine sounds good without one and they are ugly as sin IMO.
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MS it takes a bit more heat then that. I Use it to hold my heads on my arrows, and unless I hit something hard or bury it deep in the dirt it holds great.
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dhermon where in KS are you I have a 12"x12" slat shingle I am working on off and on to make a box call. If you are close to the manhatten area let me know. I am gone by 8 march though.
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lonehowel how do you make the mouth call? They are my preferred for my hands are fee.
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Thanks for the info kellyg. Lonehowel I also would like to know how you make your mouth calls?
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Kelly,
here's a good place to start.
http://www.callpurrfect.com/
Once you jump up into a bigger machine with more consistent capabilities you're looking at a couple-3 K bucks. There's only a couple guys building the nice jigs. So far I've refused to build more than friction calls. I have a few diaphrams I've held onto though I'd like to build now that they're off the market. another hobby I DONT need LOL!
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dug through my links....here's Thads jig I was referring too. Its also a good source for materials.
http://www.pioneerturkeycalls.com/pioneerturkeycalls.html
I did find this jig also made by Thad I'm not familiar with but it looks a little better than the call purrfect set up, and gives you a somewhat consistent tension on the rubber....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdofqwcSEE
If you're not addicted, you will be at the end of this. Why in sam heck do I live in state with out thunderchickens GAAAAHHH!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkVB5wTGyi0
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So you got to have a jig to make them? AKDan, I would have to move if I couldn't turkey hunt lol. Do you go out of state to hunt turkeys?
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Every spring ms! Ive been counting the days since may 2014 lol!
Have to no! But if youre serious about being consistent yes. Youll see in the last video Billy Yargus hand building diaphrams with a similar jig to Thad's smaller version. He does however cut the tape with a die cutter. Im sure you could build a home jobby ala the feather chopper style. I think i'm selling myself on one lol. Dang it!
Im fortunate i had a buddy building them up until recently. He sold his gear so cheap calls no more. He built a clean cut thst rasped slightly when you got on it, but was capable of cluck and purrs up close sweet talking with ease. I like the primos will primos and woodhaven copperhead 1. Cant justify tinkering with diaphragms though i probably should. The troy ruiz call by primos was a pretty sweet call as well which is one of 3 i'd like to reproduce! Both troys and wills were good all arounds, the copperhead is when i get funknasty.
For those that dont know and are interested in call building theres some pretty sweet call building forums out there. Youll learn more in an hour or two reading than you could in a year of trashing calls. My simple slates can attest to that lol. It took a couple winter runs before the a ha happened. Those boxes were my first run and so far im pleased with how they run!
Winter dulldrums i find a night or two watching the grand nationals. If you havent you should. Youll be strutting for a month lol!
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I over priced his big jigs. Thads comp jig is 600 more with tab bender. His air vises are 1k. The tape cutter is another 5-600.
The smaller ones the one i want. Ive looked at the callpurrfect jig for years and opted not too. Im done posting on it before i convince myself i should grab one! Lol
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I know ole Thad Bright! Love his presses
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i150/jmb1221/254364F8-47B5-4934-8E55-19B55AF1713E_zps4nhsfzcm.jpg)
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I have a press and tape cutter made by Thad. Its a blast making calls. Very frustrating in the beginning though.
you can do it by hand, without any kind of jig, but it takes some practice for sure. There are a couple you tube vids showing how to stack and stretch calls. You can find frames, tape and latex online at a couple places.
Mark
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8652/16602012986_143115aff8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ri4E4d) 002 (https://flic.kr/p/ri4E4d) by Lonehowl (https://www.flickr.com/people/31777870@N04/) , on Flickr
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Y'all went all high tech on me..lol. I like the idea of making my own mouth calls, but I just don't use them much. Once I see a bird I shut up. What do those contraptions that Yall or using do? Stretch the latex or make the frames, both?
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LOL!! MsBow... I got about 600 in mine and its the basic. Owned it for 8+ years. Cant tell you how many mouth calls I have made for friends and fun I had sitting around camp makin calls and tossing them to buddies to try. Loneowl can correct me but I think I have about 17 cents per call? not counting the jig......well worth the enjoyment. little learning curve but one of my favorite hunting things I own.
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You guys are a bad... well maybe a good influence. After seeing your home made calls I took a break this weekend from building bows and tried my hand at couple of calls. I had never heard of scratch calls till I saw Joebucks so I had to give it a try. After some research thanks Joe for the web sites I made two. The larger one made sounds immediately the smaller one made with poplar I am struggling with. One thing for sure making a call is the easy part, getting it tuned is the challange. I also made a friction call from rmorris's how to with a few changes. I really like the simplicity of the scratch calls and think I will make one inbetween the large and small one.
I am using some pen blank material for strykers. Is there a big difference if I radius one side of the stryker? One of the how to's I read says to just pick your stryker material and size and tune your call to that, does that make sense?
Any how here are my first tries at home made turkey calls. The friction is not tuned yet.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1101.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1101.jpg.html)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1100.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1100.jpg.html)
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Skinner howdy! looks like your making a scratch box driven by a peg striker on top? I have made several of those but prefer the scratch box scratched on hardwood or softwood flat peg. experiment with length of your peg/rod for sound you looking for. shorter the peg, higher the pitch. Thinner the scratch box top, raspier the call to a certain point then call will sound hollow and monotone thus ruined.... learn when to quit
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Jackskinner, those calls you made look good. I really like that box call you made!! You didn't mention how it sounded??
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No just not a good picture of the scratch calls. The large one is a poplar box with a cherry sound board on one side that I am scratching with a blood wood pen blank piece that is about 3 inches long. The small one is a poplar box with a thin piece of cherry glued on the top. Also trying the blood wood for a stryker. A paddle made of walnut about 1.5 inches wide made some good sounds as well.
Msbow the box call isnt tuned yet. I am hopefull it well sound good enough to take to the woods this spring.
Here is a little better picture of the scratch calls and the strykers I am trying so far. Its hard to tell but on the larger one the sound board is cherry
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1103.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/New%20Archery%20Stuff/DSCN1103.jpg.html)
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now that pic tells a different story! my money is on the smaller one. Bigger one probably has too much jake in it. as far as box wood to striker combination... I like. Cedar to cedar, mahogany to persimmon,poplar to persimmon, walnut to purple heart, mahogoney to cedar, sika spruce to cherry,
trick to scratch box calling is holding that box lip at a slight angle to scratch the grain of the flat peg striker
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Thanks Joebuck.
I am going to make a call a size somewhere inbetween the two I made so far. I have the walnut/purple hrt combo in the shop, I will try that.
Thanks again for all your help
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Anybody made a snuff can call. My Grandaddy used a call with a piece of latex on an old snuff can. RC
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no but I've built them out of pill bottles, they work ok. The cheap tubes on the market sound much better imho.