I have been trying to get my bow tuned for a shoot this weekend for a good while ow. I have the nock left right down now. Now I cant get the nock high down. I tried all the way to almost 1" seemed to go down a bit but seemed excessive. I walked down the string also trying to get it. I shoot two under with a no glove under the nock point. Any help would be good. It is a Browning Nomad Stalker 44#@28" bow.I am shooting 5575 GT full length with a 225 point.
If your bare shafts and fletched shafts share the same mark at a reasonable distance, for ex...your max hunting distance, then further chasing the nock position is mute.
Another example...I enjoy bare shafting out to 40 yards. My interest is only in the bare shaft mark relative to the fletched shaft mark.
If your bare shafts and fletched shafts share the same mark at a reasonable distance, for ex...your max hunting distance, then further chasing the nock position is mute.
Another example...I enjoy bare shafting out to 40 yards. My interest is only in the bare shaft mark relative to the fletched shaft mark.
A little more info would help with a more educated answer.
What's your draw length? RH or LH? Are you shooting off the shelf, or an elevated rest? Do you use one nock point, or two? Have you tried shooting split, three under, or with a glove or tab? Have you tried a different arrow set up?
Phoenix is really need more info.. If I had to guess ide say you need a second nock point under the arrow. How tight does your arrow nock fit on to the string. your arrow could be sliding down the string on release.
5575's for a 44# bow ???????, how long is your draw length ?
QuoteOriginally posted by njloco:
5575's for a 44# bow ???????, how long is your draw length ?
+1
I have tried split finger when starting out, then tried three under. Just seemed not right, I switched to two under because it felt right. I tried the glove and the tab, but switched to no gloves on the string, again it wasn't right. I have one nock point and a no glove under that, they arent slipping down much, it's pretty much like two nock points with the no glove on.
I have a 29" draw. I anchor to the back of my jaw. I am a RH shooter with an normal shelf. It is a little past center cut. I am using Velcro for the shelf.
I got a bareshaft after shooting my regular setup forever, and watched it completely miss the target in a curveball-like effect they were 5575's. I went to the archery store and got a fletched and a bare 3555. It would tune well. I got a dozen 5575's for Christmas and had also just found out about FOC. With the 3555's I cant add much weight, but with the 5575's I have a 225 gr point on the end and it tuned perfect left to right, it's just the nock high now.
The nock fits on the string about right, I can nock it and tap the string and it will come off. It's not too tight or too loose.
The bare and fletched hit close, but that nock it too high, even the flecched you can see kick up, then flatten back out, but the bare stays that way. Around 20 yardswas the max I could try.
Have you tried raising or lowering the brace height?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j6fcVAZWNU
I got this info from a wise old sage who is no longer with us. During paradox the back end of your bare shaft is bouncing of the shelf. If you build up your arrow shelf about 1/8" and no wider than the arrow (important) your problem will go away.
Jack
On a short bow like yours if you put much pressure on the lower part of the grip you over stress the lower limb which causes it to pull the nock of the arrow down on release which causes the arrow to bounce off of the shelf. That and using two fingers under the nock amplifies that stress on the lower limb. I experimented with different grip pressure using the high speed feature of my camera and you can see this effect on the arrow. Try using a straight wrist so the pressure is mostly on the web of your thumb and index finger and see if that helps. If it does you will either have to change the way you grip the bow, weaken the lower limb, or get used to a very high nock point. Try it and see.
I'll get some videos showing the effect of grip pressure later today.
Arrow appears too stiff, 2 under throw off limb alignment, and if your grip isn't correct it makes things even worse.
I still see nothing on brace height. If your brace height is too low, that can also cause a bunch of problems. Not saying that's the problem, but one more thing to look at. If your brace height is too low, the string is still holding the nock as the feathers arrive at the shelf and it will bounce.
I will try different finger positions and retry the 3555's. Can I still get a high FOC with the lighter spined 3555's without cutting them down though?
I will try building up the shelf up first. That makes sense, because as I moved down it would be high then would be a bit better but still be high and you can see it kick up and hear it a bit.
I have tried moving the brace height around also, will just have to keep at it. I don't change more than one thing at a time.
jmar595 wait just a bit I've got videos uploading to youtube that really show what I said about grip pressure
Ok here is the first video that shows the effect of putting pressure low on the bow grip. I intentionally pushed hard with the lower palm of my hand on this video. The bow is 63" nock to nock with equal distance between the top and bottom limb from the string. The nock height is 7/16" above the shelf. I also used and aluminum arrow because they flex more than carbons which helps show the effect. You can also see how much osculation there is in the limbs because the low grip pressure really messes with the limb timing.
I'll get the next video up as soon as it's ready
High speed low grip effect video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhPbGLYtktg)
Here's the second video. Same bow same settings I just pulled on the riser grip with my lower 2 fingers which took the pressure off the lower limb. The arrow still flexes some but doesn't kick up like it did in the first video. Also the bow limbs settle down quicker.
High speed high grip video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcqoFJVgW-o)
Get rid of the no nock.
Go back to 35-55 with about 225 up front. You are way over spined.
Bare shaft for groups only. Your never gonna get a bare shaft to fly perfectly.
Broadhead and field tips with fletched shafts will give the same tuning results as unfletched field tips.
Set your brace first based on sound. Start around the manufacturers recommended height
Make sure you are not twisting the vow string. A lot of people so this. The bow canted or straight but the draw fingers are twisting the string sideways. This will cause the arrow to bounce off the riser or shelf every time. This is especially true on shorter bows.
I agree with getting rid of the no-nock. I think that might be throwing you off. I don't know how easy it is to take the weight off your bottom finger when you shoot with a no-nock, since I've never tried one other than in kids' classes I teach. But you need to get some weight off your bottom finger.
I think you can tune the 5575's to work, if you like a lot of point weight. You're drawing 29", so your arrows are probably 30" or more, which calls for a stiffer spined arrow.
You say you can see the arrow bouncing off the shelf. That sort of messes up everything, perhaps even your spine indication. You have to solve that first. I agree that if you have to go higher than 1" nock height to solve that, something else is wrong. Possibly getting rid of the no-nock and raising your shelf height will help. Probably has something to do with the tiller of your bow, and raising the shelf height should help if your bow has too positive a tiller to be shot 3 (or 2) under.
Have you checked the tiller? Sometimes with bows that you cannot get the nock height correct an elevated rest can resolve the issue. Grip pressure, as mentioned, can also be the culprit.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jack Denbow:
I got this info from a wise old sage who is no longer with us. During paradox the back end of your bare shaft is bouncing of the shelf. If you build up your arrow shelf about 1/8" and no wider than the arrow (important) your problem will go away.
Jack
Jack is a wise old sage himself. That is double nought old sages...I've solved the same issue for a number of friends with a $1.99 stick on rest. Same thing but a lot quicker if you just want to check it out. Adjust your nock point accordingly.
I'd listen to Jack, he doesn't post much, but when he does it is money in the bank ;)
Good video !
After plugging your info into Stu millers Dynamic Spine Calculator and using 32"'s as your shaft length since you said they are full length shafts it calculates that your arrows are way UNDER SPINED. Even if the shafts are 30" long your are under spined. try a lighter point weight until you get good flight.
use a tie on or brass nocking point both above and below your nock. that will stop your nock high problem
Benbow, those are good videos. I tried shooting the bow both ways and they still shot nock high. I also tried shooting split and three under, still nock high. I then tried adjusting the nock point very minutely and I started around 1" then moved down.
I adjusted the arrows also. They are around 600 grains. I dont have a grain scale right now, using a kitchen scale, they are 40 grams. They are GT Traditional 5575 full length with a 50gr weight behind the insert and a 225gr point. The FOC is around 19%. I want to stick with the heavier 5575 so that I can put more weight up front. I have been doing a lot of reading Dr. Ashby and a higher FOC makes a lot of sense.
After adjusting the nock point and arrows, I have them flying fairly good, the nock high is still eluding me a little. I build up the side plate and shelf a bit as suggested and it helped a bit. I'll just have to keep tweeking things until I get it right. Hopefully I can get it all ironed out by turkey season. The shoot is this weekend, I think I have them flying straight enough for that.
I tried gloves and tabs, they just aren't right for me. I have one nock point with a no glove under it, the arrow cant slip down, the no glove is like a bottom nock point.
The spine calculator may state that it weak but it flies good left to right. ??
I know A person that shoots two under. But he only shoots 30#. IMO you are torkqing the string to compensate for the missing finger. Also your bow is not that long, you draw lenght maybe causing your fingers to pinch the nock even with that rubber thing.
I would put off that shoot until you have practiced at more than 20 yards with those heavy arrows. It would ruin your day to lose or break new arrows.
I still believe it has more to do with tiller and hand pressure than spine after reading this thread. Thinking exactly like Ben though I had hard time seeing his illustration in those two videos I get what he's after.
How much heel do you have when you shoot this bow? And when you say you're straight wristing it, is the meaty part of you hand touching at all? It can be hard to do on some grips. If straight wrist isn't working, try heeling the snot out of it and see how it reacts. Force the bottom limb to bend more for illustrative purposes. There's a reason the tiller for 3 under and split is different.
Take a kids fiberglass bow, and shoot with a hard heel down position, vs normal vs a straight wrist (Asbell style) and you'll see a difference in how your arrow reacts based on how much you put into heeling it.
I had this very issue with a Robertson longbow..I ended up selling it. I couldn't get used to using that much heel into a bow. No form of nock point change would fix it. And it had zilch to do with spine!
Too much weight up front IMHO.
I would bet that if you tried 160 gr heads or even 140s you would be getting level flight.
God bless, Steve
Your bow was probably tillered for a split finger release. Might try shooting that way.
I tried shooting with different finger positions with a glove and with a tab. No matter what I tried I could not get the nock high out. I had a bareshaft Easton Axis 500 I tried that with a 225gr point and it shot like a dart. Straight as can be. Tried messing with the GT a bit more, but shot the Axis with them, it was consistently straight.
I went to a 3D shoot last weekend and took the Axis with me along with the GT and shot it at some longer distances, super straight.
So, I got 6 Axis now that I will use, they are Axis 500 with a 225gr point, they are 515gr. Finally, money!
Thank everyone for the suggestions and input, this has been a educating journey and all the input has been very helpful. I did build out the plate and build it up over the deepest grip area.
Glad you got something to work. If the bow is the one in your avatar you can see from this picture the bottom limb is overstressed. The smaller diameter shaft possibly gives a high enough nock height to clear the shelf. Short bows are tough to shoot because it doesn't take much to mess up the limb timing. Enjoy your good shooting combination and way to hang in there to get it to work for you.
(http://i.imgur.com/rigNYjq.jpg)
Wow, I have not seen that before. That picture was taken years ago. I will have to check that out again to see if it has changed. That makes a lot of sense though why it tends to do what it does. Thanks Benbow, good stuff!