Just for the fun of it I put a left single bevel broadhead on a right wing feather arrow and it flew exactly like my other arrow with left wing and left single bevel broadhead. Even had the same penetration. So does it really matter if they are matched.
It isn't an arrow flight issue but more that you're not taking full advantage of the single bevels twisting motion as it cuts. I'm sure it'll work but just not getting the full benefits of the design.
For many years we used Grizzly broadheads made by Harry Elburg which only came in right wing bevel on left wing fletched arrows. They always seemed to get the job done on deer, bear and elk. What others say regarding penetration etc. would seem to make sense but we never had problems with flight or penetration.
O M G no way !
ChuckC :dunno:
Ah.... The debate still goes on . Well for me I shoots what flies the most accurate . If you poke a hole through the right spot with a sharp blade, matters not how wide , the twist , or how heavy .
Use what you feel confident with .
So you have a broadhead designed to breach bone when spinning counterclockwise, and you want to mount that to an arrow that will spin clockwise.
I'm with Chuck.
Thom
I have never experienced a problem, either, I think it is negligible. I remember reading that Howard Hill determined his arrow would spin, once every 12 ft. He determine the number of revolutions from his bow to a target, so he could cut a rope in a movie.
You don't want to do that. When that arrow hits an animal it will begin spinning the exact opposite direction thereby retarding penetration.
not enough surface area on a sharpened edge to make any difference in soft tissue and negligible difference in bone........
I have right bevel grizzly's with left wing,,, like stated above it may not have the S cut on impact but it will go thru same as a double bevel,, I do know that.
I personally want to see if it does have the S cut very curious if the bevel will take control, if I hit bone I'm curious about that too ,, I just need to get a shot when I have those arrows I will be taking lots of pics good or bad when it happens.
Never thought it mattered either. Shot the old right-bevel Grizzly for years with left-wing feathers. Never really thought about it. After reading the Ashby report I shot the above arrow into a block target and lo and behold the "wound channel" was a clockwise spiral. The direction of the bevel overcame the fletching rotation and reversad the spin. How much energy do you think this wasted that could have been better spent on penetration?
What hvyhitter said. So miniscule not worth worrying about it. Obviously you tested it out and your difference was nothing.
The right fletching and left broadhead bevel will create a eccentrically opposite force reaction and the nock end of the arrow will strike the target within 12 feet... ;)
Left fletching and right bevel will fly just fine... :laughing:
All I need to know on this subject was written long ago. (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=049444;p=3#000034) Especially points 3, 7, and 8.
Thom
Of course they'll fly fine, but why fight physics when it comes to the penetration?
Ashby reports, read them!!!!! He dedicated his life to the single bevel head and it's advantages I wouldn't do it, you take away the advantages you gained by going to a single bevel head.
Why not try mixing the feathers too? Just kidding !
QuoteOriginally posted by njloco:
Why not try mixing the feathers too? Just kidding !
we've done that too with both RW & LW feathers and the arrow surprisingly flew fine,,, it was loud but hit right with the others. I've mixed feather cuts also, and shot with two and even one feather on a perfectly tuned arrow,.. you know traditional archery is a lot more simple than people make it out to be.
Ashby spent a lot of time studying bevels for hunting dangerous game as far as im concerned he had a lot of time on his hands and took it to the extreme,, people are still killing dangerous game to this day with every type of broad head you can buy.
I will admit there's some broadheads I seen in collections that I wouldn't shoot at a stump,,, my favorite head Left Bevel Abowyer's with my favorite fletch LW EV Howlers.
I wonder if in yesteryears they paid attention to LW/RW. When I was much,much younger and started shooting archery,with no one around to show me,if the arrow shot a little left or right, I would just use Kentucky windage.
I think your correct, to a point, it has gotten more involved than it has to be.
With left and right bevel and feathers being available why would one intentionally not want to match the components up, unless something wasn't available at that moment ?
I'm with HVYhitter. Too much sweating the small stuff for me on a deer standing 20 and under with a arrow going 180 FPS.
If the statement attributed to Howard Hill is correct, the arrow spins once every 12 feet, then the total spin going through a whitetail deer would be 22 degrees, assuming it spins the same in the animal as in air.
My double bevel broadheads go clean thru my 11" target, which is designed to trap arrows. Ashby reports I would only get half the penetration by miss matching fletch and bevel. I'm not so sure that's true, nor even important when talking about Whitetail deer.
The only way to know for sure is to do a test. My guess is you would find the differences not worth worrying about.
Theres the guy that stuck his hand on the hot burner when he was three all because his mom told him he shouldn't do it.
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Theres the guy that stuck his hand on the hot burner when he was three all because his mom told him he shouldn't do it.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Yep no matter how much fact and science you put in front of some they discount it because there arrow flew fine and went into there block target.
I sure hope we don't see a what happened thread next season when penetration is lacking on a shoulder hit.
Just saying!
Mike
We started using the Grizzly heads the first year they were available. It just happened that I had a right wing Jo Jan. I shoot Hill longbows and the quill was constantly nicking my finger so I got a left wing Jo Jan. Iowa whitetail shoulder blades are no match to the left wing/right wing mix, but I considered the opposite spin way back in the 90s, so I made my own left wing Hills. They work really good, but about the only thing I can say that we observed when comparing the 40 or so deer shot with either one is that there is possibly more initial blood on the ground when matching head bevel to the feather. We never lost a single deer with the mixed arrows and on whitetails penetration was never an issue. I think perhaps that the entry 'S' cut is more pronounced with the arrows with matching bevels.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bobaru:
If the statement attributed to Howard Hill is correct, the arrow spins once every 12 feet, then the total spin going through a whitetail deer would be 22 degrees, assuming it spins the same in the animal as in air.
My double bevel broadheads go clean thru my 11" target, which is designed to trap arrows. Ashby reports I would only get half the penetration by miss matching fletch and bevel. I'm not so sure that's true, nor even important when talking about Whitetail deer.
The only way to know for sure is to do a test. My guess is you would find the differences not worth worrying about.
In my foam target 6" deep,the helix broadheads rotate at 25° to 30°.
Mike, and everybody, the problem with this sort of discussion is when someone says I am right and you are wrong.
Yes, science says that the optimum . .blah blah, but we rarely need the optimum and we are rarely able to actually test the optimum vs less optimum in real life because many other things factor in.
Many things, such as sharpness, angle of entry into the critter, angle of striking the bone in question, movement of the arrow ( paradox or other), movement of the critter, actual speed the arrow attained in the first place due to bow efficiency, actual draw length achieved, release etc. and more and more.
Dead critters tend to not jump the string very much, while our deer do. Water buffalo and others tend to be huge and every single inch of penetration might make a difference. Whitetail deer are not and I am gonna go on the fire here and guess far fewer deer are lost because of penetration issues compared to just plain screwing up the shot.
Enough penetration is very dependent upon what it is you are penetrating and changes constantly.
The speed at which an arrow spins is dependant upon where you measure and the rotation of the fletching, which changes for each of us with the flick of a screw on the fletching jig settings.
All that said. . . Ashby did a hell of a job recording his experiences and writing them down to share. I didn't do that, I am guessing most of you didn't do that.
Comparing penetration in critters against ANY kind of target substrate is plain bad science. Nothing out there simulates a critter like a critter. Not even close.
End result, do whatever you want. If it works, great, if it don't, I am sorry, and will help track if I can.
There is an age old body of experience out there to draw upon, using single and double bevel, right fletch, left fletch and no fletch.
Don't think you are inventing the wheel here, and please don't come on here and complain about the one you couldn't find.
Follow up and tracking is yet another skill set that needs to be learned and this might be a great place to learn more if the right folks share their knowledge.
CHuckC
If I remember right, Hill used a slower spinning arrow to cut the rope. I like cedar arrows that spin pretty fast, I think they recover from the 's' curve faster and straighter. a straight flying arrow will almost always penetrate better and track through straighter than an arrow that is at an angle to its flight path when it strikes an animal. As long as the arrows are flying out the other side of the deer, I am not going to worry much how spin rates affect penetration.
Wow , how can a guy take a 50# self bow with hand tied fletching , self knock , flint arrow head and get a pass through on a deer at 15 yards ?
:deadhorse:
Time to go chase coyotes or something. Anything, really...
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
Wow , how can a guy take a 50# self bow with hand tied fletching , self knock , flint arrow head and get a pass through on a deer at 15 yards ?
:deadhorse:
its easy just don't read these threads and go hunting 8^)