Hey guys I started to post this in my other thread about my new grizzly, but thought that I should probably split it away into it own thread if that is kosher.
I would like to buy some new arrows for my new 45# Bear Grizzly. I have been shooting the last three remaining GT XT Hunter 3555's I have. It seems to shoot pretty well, but I have been reading at lot about about guys using the 1535 GT for 45-50# recurves.
Seems to be some debate about which is better.
One thing I did notice, again I did not bare shaft test these 3555 XT Hunters, is that if I shoot very close that the knock is leaning a bit to the right. This makes me wonder if I bare shaft tested these if they would be much further to the right thus showing they are over spined.
It would be good to test a few 1535's and 3555's bare shafted to see what works best, but I do not have much money to spend on two sets of arrows with one set not getting used.
I also wonder if I need to up my arrow weight as the full length GT 3555 XT Hunters with 125 FP comes out to 380.5gr on my reloading scale.
However I do not think a heavier point would work well since my balance point is 10-3/8" from the insert with the 125 FP on. I do not know what percent FOC that is but it seems front heavy to me and the 125 is not all that heavy of a point.
Any thoughts there? What shaft do you guys think would be best.
Thanks,
Dave
Double post. Oops
Hi Dave. I think you will find that you can add much more point weight to those 3555 s making them perform weaker. At 380 you are on the light end for gpp. I would strip feathers from one and bareshaft w 200 gr field point and see where you are before ordering new arrows. What is your actual draw length?
Thanks. My draw length is 28-5/8".
Would the 200 gr FP not make for a really front heavy arrow?
I thought about stripping the fletching from one of these, but I don't have a fletching jig right now and then would only have two arrows to shoot right now.
Thanks
Dave
if you are getting good flight then why would you question what you've got?
with that said go with the 35/55s you will be open for more arrow combo possibilities. I think a lot of people don't understand how GT spines there arrows, with a 35/55 arrow spine if you keep it say full length it will better suit a lighter bow close to 35lbs at AMO draw length standards as you shorten it the spine will start to favor a heavier bow say up to 55lbs with the same tip weight as the lighter bow. For me its simple I wish GT hadn't caved and change there spine classification.
I thought the #'s were related to the draw weights for compound bows ?
I only draw 26 1/2", while I can use either 1535's or 3555's, I choose to use the 1535's. I have been able to load them up front with 360 grains with three 4" feathers @ 29" long. I find that they don't get effected by a cross wind nearly as much as with longer feathers.
3555 and go heavier up front. m2c
GTs spine rating is broken down like this, 15/35s 15lb bows to 35lb bows, 35/55s 35lb bows to 55lb bows 55/75s 55lb bows to 75lb bows etc. etc.
Dave. Rather than strip fletch you could try wetting the fletching down on one arrow and see what happens. When I switched from compound years ago I thought 200 grs up front was a lot. Higher foc seems much more prevalent w trad bows. W your draw length I think the 3555s will work for you. I shoot a 50 pound longbow and the 1535s give me a good tune full length-- but I only draw 25 inches, my bow is not cut as close to center as yours, and I shot 200 grs up front-- all factors that impact tuning.
njloco: with your draw length as short as it is you can get away with the setup you have, if it works for you stick with it. GTs will show a little stiffer than say a wood arrow but I like that and tune accordingly they are also inherently tougher and I like that as well.
I use the 1535 for 41-48# bows. The seem to fly better. That's with 150 gr up front. I use weed wacker line covered with masking tape to give them more weight. The masking tape keeps them quiet.
Hey guys. This is one post on this forum that started to make me think maybe the 1535's would be better.
QuoteFlying Dutchman (Member # 22361) on 03-12-2012 08:58 AM:
After reading some topics about the misleading spinevalues of carbon arrows and some people don't know how to deal with it, I think it's about time to open a topic about this.
A nice subject for my 1000-th post! [saywhat]
Lots of people seem to think that a shaft saying 15-35 is meant for bows within the range of 15 to 35 lbs. This is not true!
The 15-35 comes out of the compound world and has nothing to do with our traditional bows!
Lets take a look at the most common values: 15-35, 35-55, 55-75, and 75-95. More important here is the deflection. This means how much the shaft flexes with a weight of exactly 2 lbs on it, supported on both ends at 26".
If you want to converse these values to more traditional spinevalues, you will have to do some maths. First we look for the deflection value (which is mostly printed on the shaft and is in 1/1000 of an inch) For example 0.600 means that the shaft flexes 0.6 inch when putting a weight on it from 2 lbs supported at both ends at a lenght of 26 inches. This is the same method as with wood, only with wood it is measured at 28 inches. Then we devide the deflection value by 26 and multiply it with 1,2115 which is the factor for carbon.
This should give you the following table:
15-35 or 0.600" becomes: 26/0,6 x 1,2115 = 52,5 lbs
35-55 or 0.500" becomes: 26/0,5 x 1,2115 = 63 lbs
55-75 or 0.400" becomes: 26/0,4 x 1,2115 = 78 lbs
75-95 or 0.300" becomes: 26/0,3 x 1,2115 = 105 lbs
On these calculated lbs values all normal archery laws are applicable: shortening the shaft means a stiffer spine, higher point-weight means a weaker spine.
So for my 45 lbs bow I use a 1535 shaft. On a full lenght of 30,5" and with a 85 grains fieldpoint and standard insert it flies great. Bareshafting tells the same. My woodies tell the same: I use on the same bow 53 +/- 1 lbs Sitka shafts.. That's pretty close to the 52,5 lbs from a 15-35 carbon shaft!
YMMV, so if you have other ideas, theories or whatever, don't hold back. Afterall we are here to learn and share! I am sure there are some people here who do know a whole lot more about arrows than I do.
Archer Dave if you want to get into that much math just to shoot your bow GO FOR IT. I shoot mostly 60lb bows with approx. 225+ up front on all my bows. I may do it backwards but it works for me. I find and like 100grn brass inserts and a 125 to 150 grn point/broadheads glue them in and tune the arrow from there, the other thing I like about the GTs is the consistency I get. you can drive your self nuts with calculations. It's archery not science. I just noticed on Flying Dutchmans quote he is shooting 85 grn points. Which if you ask around you will probably find almost nobody shoots that light of a point by its self especially in trad archery.
Nearly all of my bows range from 43# to 47#, drawn 28". either 1535s or 3555s work great for me. The 1535s are cut just a bit shorter and carry 125 - 145 gr points with a standard insert. The 3555s are cut 30.5" with 186 gr up front (either 50 gr added wieghts and 125 gr point, or 175 gr points with standard inserts).
I agree the 3555s are probably more versatile and tune well with only minor changes in length. With a 28.5" draw, I'd say the 3555s are the way to go for all but the longest shots at 3D. If you want for hog arrows, you can really load them up.
Alright guys. I appreciate the input. I think I will go with the GT Trad 3555's That will give me a little more weight and probably work well for me.
I want to be able to use these for target, stumpin' and hunting, so it seems the 3555's would be good for this.
Thanks,
Dave
QuoteOriginally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
3555 and go heavier up front. m2c
Get them tuned with whatever weight is necessary.
Bisch
Archery Dave, thanks for going through the trouble of educating us, it's pretty much what I thought.
I for one will try that equation out.
Dave, I reread the posts and maybe missed it (if so I apologize), but I did not see anywhere if you planned to deer hunt with the bow---guess I assumed you were. One other thing I could suggest would be to put a broadhead on one of your 3555s and see how it flies---start close and move back looking to see if it groups with you field points. Use the same weight broadhead as your field tips---if you go heavier or lighter you may need to factor that into the equation as an indicator of what increase/decrease of weight up front is doing to your set up.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
3555 and go heavier up front. m2c
Get them tuned with whatever weight is necessary.
Bisch [/b]
X2 higher foc doesn't hurt at all.
I have tuned a Bear Paw's classic 1pc 45@28 60in.( my draw 27) with gold tip 1535 trads 281/2 inch supplied insert(11grns) and 225 fld tips (bare shaft tuning great!)one inch footing of 2117(12grns front, and 1/4 inch 2117 nock end 3 grns)3 41/2 feather fletch, 12 strand D10 string FF wool puffs (http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/bloodtrailer7/DSC02220_zps59de8f54.jpg)
For the record wood arrow spine is determined on 26" centers and the .600" deflection on carbons is measured on 28" centers. For wood you use a 2 pound weight but on carbon they use a 1.92 pound weight.
I shoot an RER Retro
49@28 (I draw 27). Mine likes a CE 90 with standard insert and 175 grain point. Arrows cut 29 inches. Riser cut 3/16 past center.
I know for me and my 47lb palmer recurve I shot arrows cut to 28" and the 1535's fly with 125gr points and the 3555's fly with 200grs up front.
Just leave those 35/55's full length and be prepared to use a lot of point weight. 50 and 100gr. inserts will help. And, I highly recommend bare-shaft tuning them - it will really save you some aggrevation.
Thanks again guys. I went ahead an ordered a dozen 3555 GT Trads.
Then to add to my confusion I started playing with Stu's calculator which seems to indicate maybe I need 5557's? Man am I confused.
The 3555's with a 125gr point and cut 30.5". Seems to be a good match at 9gpp.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r58/GreebeDBS/Trad3555L.png)
Then there is the same arrow but with a 50 gr weight added to the insert to get up to 10gpp, but now we are mismatched in spine.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r58/GreebeDBS/Trad3555.png)
Then we have a 5557 set up the same as the last one with a 50 gr weight added to the insert. Now the spine is matched better, but we have an arrow which most people don't recommend.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r58/GreebeDBS/Trad5575.png)
Arg.. So what is right? Should I try to change my order before it ships? Should I stay with the 3555's like in the first picture without any weight added to the insert and only be 9gpp?
What to do? Ahhhh.... :knothead:
What seemed like an easy thing is getting convoluted. What are your guys thoughts on this? Am I over thinking this?
Thanks a lot,
Dave
Either 3555s or 1535s. I think 5575s would be way too stiff unless you had a 35 inch draw and tied a cat to the front of the arrow. I think a lot of the guys that responded liked the 1535 s for your set up. W your draw and bow I think you may be right on line where either 3555 or 1535 would tune by playing w length and point weight. Just my opinion.
Cool man thanks. I think the 3555's will be good for me at 28-5/8". The 3555 GT Trads shipped, so that is what I am going to get in a few days.
I told you, you could go nuts trying to do so much math, my friend you are way over thinking this.
Haha, I am done thinking, the 3555's are on their way. Should be hear in a few days.
I'm a wood and aluminum kind'a guy, been shooting them for years. I went out today and shot 60-75 Carbon Express full length. 4" 4 fletch, stock inserts with a 200 gr. field point. My bow is a Stalker Coyote 46# @ 29"..........They flew like darts and from what I think I'm reading, they shouldn't :dunno: so what's up??
ArcherDave,
I just got a half dozen gt traditional 3555's. I shoots 45# bear Montana. I have only just started playing with them, I got 50 grain inserts, and then I'll play with point weight and length to find the right setup. Just an FYI, 3 rivers has these listed as 30" shafts......they are actually 32" shafts.
Thanks, I noticed that in their printed catalog as showing 30". The place I ordered them did have it listed at 32" thought so I was not sure who was right, so that it is good to know.
Well this is interesring...I too have a 45# grizzly and just received my first order of carbon arrows in the mail today. I based my order off of 3 rivers chart and went with the gt5575 as that spine seemed to be in the middle of all the anticipated broad head gr weights I'm likely to use with this bow and my draw length. I thought I did my homework but I guess it's back to square one.I plan on starting the tunning process tomorrow and now I am VERY curious on the outcome
I will be curious to see how it works out for you. Let me know of your results.
I think David that posted above you is going to be very stiff. I have some 5575 that I have cut to 29" and I'm pulling around 28" out of a 54@28. On that set up I've got 326 grains up front and they fly good. I've been thinking of trying some 3555 to see about a lighter set up. I also shoot some CE 150 for about the same weight up front as the GT 5575. I think as others have posted you be fine with 3555 with more point weight or the other with less point weight,but I sure don't think you could make 5575 work.
QuoteOriginally posted by TxRuckus:
Well this is interesring...I too have a 45# grizzly and just received my first order of carbon arrows in the mail today. I based my order off of 3 rivers chart and went with the gt5575 as that spine seemed to be in the middle of all the anticipated broad head gr weights I'm likely to use with this bow and my draw length. I thought I did my homework but I guess it's back to square one.I plan on starting the tunning process tomorrow and now I am VERY curious on the outcome
I'm by no means an expert, but I would definitely start out shooting those shafts full length, hopefull you didn't have them cut.
It all depends on what you feel comfortable with. I shoot 45 to 50 pounds and found the 35/55 to be too stiff for me. I don't like or want heavy FOC. I go with the 15/35 and can get by with 175 grain broad heads with no additional weighting.
BAK, it all depends on the length of the arrow. Carbons stiffen up so fast as they are cut back. I also shoot mostly 43# - 47# and I need 3555s at about 30" with 180 gr (point & insert) up front, or 1535s with 125gr. If I cut another 1/2" off the shaft, they would be too stiff for me too.
Krex, I don't plan on cutting my 5575s down at all. Especially not until I have played around with them for a while with different weight distribution. Just need it to stop raining so I can pull the tarp off the targets and get to work.
Order a field point test kit. Theycome 2 point each from 100 to 250.that way all need is that then when decide what tunes best you can order a dozen of that size. I believe BigJim sells them.
Hey guys. Just had a few questions about the new 3555 GT Trads I received in the mail today.
I was going to do as I have seen and shoot one arrow bareshaft to see what length I need to cut the arrow to get to the right spine.
The arrow is 32" and I had a 125gr FP on the end. Total weight was 429 gr. When I shot it at a distance of about 10 yards I was getting good grouping where I was aiming, but the shaft was nock to the right quite a bit showing heavy spine.
I made a brass screw to insert from the back of the insert which weighs 71 gr to increase total weight to 500gr. Checked the FOC and it is about 19.5%. The arrow now flies pretty straight showing spine is pretty close with the extra weight up front.
So here Is my question. I would like the shaft closer to 30", but if I remove 2" wont that make me way over spined again? Technically that would put me around 483gr by removing 8.6gpi x 2".
I would rather not have a 32 inch arrow, but I am afraid that if I lop off the 2 inches that I am going to be overspined or have to go to a really heavy insert.
What do you guys think I should do? Can I make these work without going supper heavy for my 45# Grizzly? Should I have bought the 1535's?
Thanks a lot,
Dave
I might have screwed the pooch. The consensus was about 50/50 split on which shafts to get, so I went with the 3555's but maybe that was a mistake.
X2 on the field point test kit shed.
Yup.... i think for the weight you want at 30" you will do better with the 1535's... cutting those carbon shafts stiffen them up a lot...
let me know if you want to sell the 3555's i'm building a 3D rig using Trad XL in 3555... are yours the XL model? Im not interested in the blems.
Don't cut them. best to leave the long. It won't hurt a think...or replace them with 1535's.
A lot of guys shoot the 3555's out of light bows and have been making them work for a long time because there was nothing weaker up until a few years ago. I would wager that many, many guys shooting the 3555's would do better with the 1535's.
We sell individual arrows if you wan't to give it a try...can pick up a field point test kit too.
Not only do we sell the Blem gold tips, but if you feel the need, we sell the non blemishes also. I'm sure you will find the blems to be outstanding.
Thanks, bigjim
I think he is too light up front he already has been shooting 35/55s and said they shoot pretty good. Dave: add a little weight up front and see what you get.
Yes, but he wants to cut them. That can't be corrected with a little weight.
BigJim
Shooting bows in the 43 to 50 lb range and I draw 28". I switched to Beman Centershot 600 @ 29.75" long, 75 grain inserts, 145 field points or Gold Tip Trad 15/35 @ 29.75" long, standard insert and 200 field point. Both set-up are about 460grains and 19% FOC.
Good advice from Big Jim---he knows arrows and I totally agree you will find the Blems to be great arrows at an awesome price. If you're not happy with the 3555s sell them to KirkII above and get in touch with Big Jim and get a dozen 1535 blems. I foot mine w 2117s---1 inch up front and 3/8" at nock and they are just shy of bulletproof. Do not even think about cutting te 1535s until you spend some time developing form---fletch up 2 arrows and shoot 2 arrows, pull them, repeat---shooting bunches of arrows at a time is fun, but it is difficult to focus on form, aiming, etc. Shoot quality arrows. After you develop form down the road---could be months (in my case years)---Then you will get better, more reliable results from bareshafting and will be able to determine the length your arrows will need to be to tune well. A 1/4" cut from a carbon does make a lot of difference.
Thanks everyone. The place I ordered these shafts from said they would swap them out for 1535's if I wanted to, all I would have to do is pay shipping, which is only $5.
I would really like to have a shorter arrow, 29.5" to 30.5" would be preferred.
What approximate weight range could I get with the 1535 Trads? It would be nice to stay in the 9-10 gpp range for my 45# Grizzly.
That was my biggest concern with these 3555 Trads that I currently have is that they are longer then I want at 32", that I already had the total weight up to 500gr without any fletching, and they were still flying with the nock a little to the right. I would rather not have to go even heavier to use these.
What do you guys think? Should I send the 3555's back and exchange them for the 1535's? Would the 1535's work in the 380-470gr range at this length?
Thanks a lot,
Dave
My 30.5" 1535s with factory insert/nock and 145gr points weigh 450gr each. They have three 5" shield feathers. They shoot very well out of my 45# Grizzly.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bud B.:
My 30.5" 1535s with factory insert/nock and 145gr points weigh 450gr each. They have three 5" shield feathers. They shoot very well out of my 45# Grizzly.
Thanks, that is the kind of info I need.
I would go with the 35/55's, left full length,add a 100 grain insert, then a 125 grain point, or whatever weight you're preffered broadhead will be. This will be point heavy, but there is only benefit in that. This will give you a around 450 grain arrow, which will be the ideal 10 gr per # of bow weight , which gives best penetration, and a quiet bow. I never understood peoples aversion to heavy point weight, for me it has always gave the best arrow flight and performance.
Not real good at this and have been following along but I have a question. I seen rifleman mention form...get that one. But does string material, nock fit or anything else come into play? Just curious because I know I am a bit over spined and about to change things slightly. Thanks guys.
QuoteOriginally posted by Archer Dave:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bud B.:
My 30.5" 1535s with factory insert/nock and 145gr points weigh 450gr each. They have three 5" shield feathers. They shoot very well out of my 45# Grizzly.
Thanks, that is the kind of info I need. [/b]
Dave,
After reading Randy's post I went back to re-weigh the 1535. 450gr. I remove the GT trad markings on some of my crested shafts, I thought the one I weighed was a 1535. It was a 3555 verified via my spine tester. I reweighed a marked 30.5" 1535 with a 145gr head. It is 420gr. That's still 9.33gpp.
I shoot the 1535s from my 45# Grizzly and have no issues whatsoever. I shoot 3555s from my 50# Super Grizzly and have to have 175gr up front on a 30.5" arrow. To get the 3555s to tune, youll need an arrow with enough weight up front to give you a 550-600gr arrow. A 600gr arrow will be 13.33 gpp. That's extreme FOC and a rainbow of an arc. I believe you'll be more accurate with a 1535. If you want higher foc, cut the 1535s down to 30 and add a point up to around 175-200. When you go to cutting down carbons, a little cut of the shaft equates to alot more point weight needed to bring it back to proper tune.
My apologies for the weight error.
QuoteOriginally posted by randy grider:
I would go with the 35/55's, left full length,add a 100 grain insert, then a 125 grain point, or whatever weight you're preffered broadhead will be. This will be point heavy, but there is only benefit in that. This will give you a around 450 grain arrow, which will be the ideal 10 gr per # of bow weight , which gives best penetration, and a quiet bow. I never understood peoples aversion to heavy point weight, for me it has always gave the best arrow flight and performance.
Thanks for the reply. How are you getting to 450gr with this setup? I had a full length 3555, with 125 gr FP, a 71 gr weight added to the factory insert and got up to 501gr without fletching.
I think if you put in a 100gr insert you would be closer to 530gr, not 450gr.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bud B.:
After reading Randy's post I went back to re-weigh the 1535. 450gr. I remove the GT trad markings on some of my crested shafts, I thought the one I weighed was a 1535. It was a 3555 verified via my spine tester. I reweighed a marked 30.5" 1535 with a 145gr head. It is 420gr. That's still 9.33gpp.
I shoot the 1535s from my 45# Grizzly and have no issues whatsoever. I shoot 3555s from my 50# Super Grizzly and have to have 175gr up front on a 30.5" arrow. To get the 3555s to tune, youll need an arrow with enough weight up front to give you a 550-600gr arrow. A 600gr arrow will be 13.33 gpp. That's extreme FOC and a rainbow of an arc. I believe you'll be more accurate with a 1535. If you want higher foc, cut the 1535s down to 30 and add a point up to around 175-200. When you go to cutting down carbons, a little cut of the shaft equates to alot more point weight needed to bring it back to proper tune.
My apologies for the weight error.
Thanks Bud. That was my thinking about the weight. to get the 3555's to fly right at my preferred length, I would need to have at least a 600gr arrow, which seems like much too heavy for my 45# bow. Perhaps I would get good penetration while hunting, but I would need to be awfully close to get a decent shot.
Besides 99 percent of my shooting will be roving, stumping, target, aerial, and only a few shots will be made while hunting each year. So basically I Would like to have a flatter shooting and accurate set up that can be used for target and small game hunting mostly. Then I also want to take a deer each year, but the deer will be a very small percentage of my shooting with this bow.
I think I might send the 3555's back and get the 1535's. I think these might be more suited for what I am wanting to do. I just hope that I wont be underspinded.
Thanks a lot for your insight.
Dave
If you find they are, get with me. I can always use 1535s :)
I just got off the phone with the owner of the store where I ordered these shafts to see his opinion and whether I should send them back for the 1535's, and guess what.
He is going to send me the 1535 Trads to try out and then said to just return which ever ones I don't want back to him. He did not even charge me for the 1535's.
That is some crazy service right there. I wish I could mention the company name but I think that might be against forum regs. This is a great guy to deal with, hooray for doing local business in MN.
Should have the shafts later this week, at which time I will let you guys know what I decide to keep.
Dave
My homemade r/d is 45@27. I have shot 35/55s out of it a while and had to bog it down with point weight. I bought a dozen 15/35`s from Big Jim. they are 29" and I shoot 325 up front. The arrow flight is perfect. Don`t know what they weight but they put a grizzly near end to end on a fine sow last week. RC
I'm betting you will be happy with the 1535s. In my short armed, low poundage, longbow experience it has been a more realistic option for me to stiffen a weak carbon arrow than to weaken a stiff carbon arrow. Just remember---as others have said---be very careful when cutting carbons (from a health standpoint) as well as remembering that you can quickly ruin them and have too stiff of an arrow if you cut to much---ask me how I know? I'd stress again to not even think about cutting them until you have shot for awhile and have developed some basic form. Others have posted and I agree a final bareshaft showing slightly weak is not a bad thing as wraps and fletching stiffen a little and I am more apt to short draw in a contorted hunting situation than I am to overdraw. Let us know how they work.
Thanks. I think the 1535 Trads are 30" full length. If this is the case I am going to leave them full length as that is what I like.
It will be nice to have both the 1535 and 3555 to test side by side. However I think the 1535 is what I Will keep.
Dave
Dave,, at this point, don't even worry about the fletch. Don't rip it off, just put the weight on up front and see how it shoots. If it goes well, then it works. Bare shafting would show that better, but at this point you got no bare shafts and reality being, you are throwing fletched shafts down range!
ChuckC
Glad you got a local business helping you out Dave! You will figure it out shortly. As long as you get close and fletch em up you will have some arrows that will fly just fine!
I always love reading about other peoples arrow set ups. I do not know why, but I can not ever get arrows to tune how others do.
I have 2 bows that are #51 and #53. I can not get anything lighter than a 5575 to tune on them. I always paper tune first.
On the #53 BW, i can't get anything less than a .340 to tune, but am currently using some .300 spined arrows with 300 grains up front.
Alright guys I could use some more help please.
I am racking my head on this one.
I fletched up some of the 1535's with 4-4" Fletching straight offset and a 200gr fp. This seems to show along with bareshaft testing to be a good fit. The bareshaft flies straight and groups well with the fletched arrows at around 7 Yards.
However when I shoot them around 16 yards I have a hard time grouping them and hitting my target vs the 3555's @ 30.5" with a 200gr FP and 3-4" left Helicals.
However the 3555's show slight heavy spine when shooting bareshafted, but I seem to be able to group these better and hit my mark much more consistently at 16 yds.
So what gives? Is it the 3-4" helical fletching that is making the 3555's group better? Seems like the 4-4" straight offset would make more drag and thus be more stable but it doesn't seem so maybe?
Also how would the 1535 be spined right at 30.5" with a 200gr FP and the 3555's be spined close as well? Seems like the 200gr FP on the 1535's wouldn't work well.
So I do not know what to do? Keep both shafts and keep playing with them? I haven't shot the new 3555 Trads with fletching yet, just comparing the 3555 XT Hunters I have. Argggg!!!!
Thanks for the help.
Dave
Any thoughts?
QuoteOriginally posted by Archer Dave:
Any thoughts?
Quit worrying about so much and just shoot. I do the same thing. You will drive yourself nuts.
Fletcheing your arrows increase the spine, so if you are already over spined it ups that. Do you have a heavy wt point test kit? They have weights from 200 to 300gr.
They can realy help play with the weights to get that mix right.
I found a slighly weak bare shaft flys great once fletched. And I only use helicals with 3 feathers. It will helps keep a broad head from plaining to me. When I tune I start at 7 then 10 then 15 then 20 yards It helps me be sure its not me or bad form, and if a shoot wonky I move back closer. Im still new to it as well.
been tunning a hoyt buffalo 65lb at 28 inches with a 300gr point on a 75gr insert inside a easton fmj dangerous game 250 right at 31inches. So I feel ya brother.
You have something else going on there. I haven't read the entire post, but will tell you that false readings are rampant.
I never worry about groupings. All I do is attempt to make the individual bare shaft do what I want it to do, and that is fly straight.
So many things can affect your reading:
Nock fit to tight
arrow hitting the sight window
arrow hitting the shelf
nock point too low
not having a second nock point when shooting three under
inconsistency
Dacron vs Fast Flight
The 1535 is the arrow you should be able to make fly the best unless you are drawing the bow farther than you think...this just doesn't happen too often. Most everyone has a shorter draw than what they think, plus a static release will essentially shorten it too.
re examine the above mentioned items to see if there are any thing you may have missed. Of course there are other things too.
bigjim...
I may not be a local to MN currently, but I have still spent more of my life in Stearns County, MN than I have everywhere else combined :)
I found out really quick with carbons that at this point In my experience there was just too many variables to continue to hurt my brain trying to bareshaft perfectly. I ended up just getting close and shooting. I was getting so frustrated it wasn't fun for me haha find something that shoots well fletched up with the point weight you want and shoot it. Dont lose sleep over it and stress about it! Hopefully you get something close and can shoot shoot shoot! Best of luck
My guess is that by using the lower spine (15/35) you are causing more paradox and recovery takes longer. This will amplify release and shooting errors in my humble opinion.
any properly fletched shaft will stabilize and straight flying straight within a few yards of your bow. To me a properly spined arrow is one that hits (left/right) where I am looking at. My only test is do my broadhead tipped arrows and field point tipped arrows impact the same spot.
also, just as you can take just about any spined arrow and get it to quit porposing (up/down movement) by adjusting the nok.... you can also fine tune just about any closely spined arrow with shelf material adjustments. I use the same exact GT arrow from ALL my bows and they range from 45 - 70 pounds. I have the bow set up to shoot that arrow by using different shelf/side plate material and manipulating how much material I use on the side plate (I use 2 sided carpet tape to build up the side plate as needed). I learned this from Rick Welch and it works for me. Are my arrows properly spined? I don't know or care, they fly good, impact where I look, shoot same as my broadheads and are straight in the target from 10 yards to 50 yards.
The 15/35's are without a doubt the closest to spine for that bow and draw length, I just prefer a little more weight for hunting penetration.My weighted 35/55's are around 520 grains, unweighted 15/35's showing 420 grains. My scales I fear are not real accurate, I think the 35/55's would be more than a 100 grains heavier, as I used a 100 grain insert... Not sure what the aluminum inserts weigh. If anyone has accurate scales id like to know all these weights, aluminum inserts, 15/35 and 35/55 unweighted and full length with nocks, than maybe I could calibrate my scales. They are the old martin archery spring scales. I have taken deer with unweighted and weighted shafts, and the extra 100 grains of the brass insert always makes a good showing, plus quiets the bow, which is another plus. I guess it all boils down to if you want to shoot game at 20 yards, where the drop is slight, or shoot targets at 50 yards, where the noticed drop is significant. Im more about hunting.
Randy grider, not to steal the post, but you can get a very inexpensive set of test weights from a reloading supply source. Mine has 1, 2, 5, 10, 50 and 100 gr weights for my reloading scale that I use to check it.
It takes some digging sometimes, but just about all the arrow manufacturers have insert and nock weight info on their web sites. 3 Rivers also lists a lot more insert and nock weights on its web site than it does in the printed catalog.
QuoteOriginally posted by Coach Jones:
QuoteOriginally posted by Archer Dave:
Any thoughts?
Quit worrying about so much and just shoot. I do the same thing. You will drive yourself nuts. [/b]
Haha, yep I do this with everything, and yes I do often drive myself nuts. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by AZ_Longbow:
Fletcheing your arrows increase the spine, so if you are already over spined it ups that. Do you have a heavy wt point test kit? They have weights from 200 to 300gr.
They can realy help play with the weights to get that mix right.
I found a slighly weak bare shaft flys great once fletched. And I only use helicals with 3 feathers. It will helps keep a broad head from plaining to me. When I tune I start at 7 then 10 then 15 then 20 yards It helps me be sure its not me or bad form, and if a shoot wonky I move back closer. Im still new to it as well.
been tunning a hoyt buffalo 65lb at 28 inches with a 300gr point on a 75gr insert inside a easton fmj dangerous game 250 right at 31inches. So I feel ya brother.
Thanks. I do not have a test kit. I should have bought one, but alas here I am without. Good luck with your tuning.
QuoteOriginally posted by BigJim:
You have something else going on there. I haven't read the entire post, but will tell you that false readings are rampant.
Seems that there is something funny, just haven't been able to pinpoint it.
QuoteI never worry about groupings. All I do is attempt to make the individual bare shaft do what I want it to do, and that is fly straight.
The bareshaft 1535's with the 200gr FP fly well and hit close to the same as the fletched ones. The thing though is that when I get out further, say past 15 yds, my accuracy goes to pot. I can shoot these at a target and miss the mark by 6-8 inches but then shoot the 3555's cut to 30.5" and using a 200gr FP and hit what I am aiming at. This perplexes me as the 1535's show they should be better when bareshaft testing.
QuoteSo many things can affect your reading:
QuoteNock fit to tight
Mine are pretty tight. Why would this just effect the 1535's though?
Quotearrow hitting the sight window
Do you mean the vertical part by the shelf? The side plate does seem to be getting gouged a bit.
Quotearrow hitting the shelf
Doesn't the arrow always hit the shelf as it rides on the shelf? Or are you talking about the nock point being to low causing the back of the arrow to bump it?
Quotenock point too low
I am about 1/2" High right now. Bear recommends 1/8" for this bow.
Quotenot having a second nock point when shooting three under
I shoot mostly split, but have been playing with using the nock point below the arrow, as this was how I was shown many years ago and having it above feels weird. Could this affect things?
Quoteinconsistency
Probably, :D but why would the 3555's be more accurate, despite being over spined? That is where I am confused. I shoot three of each at the same time and there is a noticeable difference.
QuoteDacron vs Fast Flight
B50, no fast flight for the Grizzly
QuoteThe 1535 is the arrow you should be able to make fly the best unless you are drawing the bow farther than you think...this just doesn't happen too often. Most everyone has a shorter draw than what they think, plus a static release will essentially shorten it too.
I think I am typically around 28.5", maybe a bit less when I am tired.
Quotere examine the above mentioned items to see if there are any thing you may have missed. Of course there are other things too.
bigjim...
I may not be a local to MN currently, but I have still spent more of my life in Stearns County, MN than I have everywhere else combined :)
Thanks for your insight. I will keep playing around and see what I can figure out. It is going o be cold the next few days so I don't think I will be out shooting much as Monday my fingers were numb after just a few minutes. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by sheepdogreno:
I found out really quick with carbons that at this point In my experience there was just too many variables to continue to hurt my brain trying to bareshaft perfectly. I ended up just getting close and shooting. I was getting so frustrated it wasn't fun for me haha find something that shoots well fletched up with the point weight you want and shoot it. Dont lose sleep over it and stress about it! Hopefully you get something close and can shoot shoot shoot! Best of luck
Thanks. Funny thing was is that this is the first time shooting carbon and I went that way this time vs wood was because I thought they would be easier to tune. In the past when I was into primitve archery, I just cut shoots like dogwood and straightened them close and never worried about spine or much else. They always seemed to shoot fine though. Maybe I should have gone with woods. :scared:
QuoteOriginally posted by DaveT1963:
My guess is that by using the lower spine (15/35) you are causing more paradox and recovery takes longer. This will amplify release and shooting errors in my humble opinion.
any properly fletched shaft will stabilize and straight flying straight within a few yards of your bow. To me a properly spined arrow is one that hits (left/right) where I am looking at. My only test is do my broadhead tipped arrows and field point tipped arrows impact the same spot.
also, just as you can take just about any spined arrow and get it to quit porposing (up/down movement) by adjusting the nok.... you can also fine tune just about any closely spined arrow with shelf material adjustments. I use the same exact GT arrow from ALL my bows and they range from 45 - 70 pounds. I have the bow set up to shoot that arrow by using different shelf/side plate material and manipulating how much material I use on the side plate (I use 2 sided carpet tape to build up the side plate as needed). I learned this from Rick Welch and it works for me. Are my arrows properly spined? I don't know or care, they fly good, impact where I look, shoot same as my broadheads and are straight in the target from 10 yards to 50 yards.
Thanks. I do notice that they feel different when I shoot them. Kind of like there is more give or something where as the 3555's seem to zip off faster. Maybe I need a 145gr or 175gr FP for better results with the 1535's.
QuoteOriginally posted by randy grider:
The 15/35's are without a doubt the closest to spine for that bow and draw length, I just prefer a little more weight for hunting penetration.My weighted 35/55's are around 520 grains, unweighted 15/35's showing 420 grains. My scales I fear are not real accurate, I think the 35/55's would be more than a 100 grains heavier, as I used a 100 grain insert... Not sure what the aluminum inserts weigh. If anyone has accurate scales id like to know all these weights, aluminum inserts, 15/35 and 35/55 unweighted and full length with nocks, than maybe I could calibrate my scales. They are the old martin archery spring scales. I have taken deer with unweighted and weighted shafts, and the extra 100 grains of the brass insert always makes a good showing, plus quiets the bow, which is another plus. I guess it all boils down to if you want to shoot game at 20 yards, where the drop is slight, or shoot targets at 50 yards, where the noticed drop is significant. Im more about hunting.
Thanks. I want to be able to do both really. I want to be able to hunt with my bow, but hunting is a small part of shooting for me. I had thought about having to arrow set ups, one for year round shooting(lighter), and one for hunting(heavier). However this would probably screw me up as I would prefer to get one arrow that shoots well and use it for everything so that it hits where I expect it to.
I can tell you that my 1535 GT Trad full length with factory nock, insert weighs 266 + or - about 1/10th of a grain.
Using the same shaft with 4-4" flecthing, and a 200gr FP weights 482.5grs.
These weights are derived on my electronic reloading scale which is very accurate.
Dave
I think the 1535's are underspend with 200gr's up front. I use Stu millers calculator to get me close than I play with the point weight. Try the 1535's with a 125gr tip and see how they fly at 15 yards. 6 yards is to close. Then try 145gr.
Well I think I know what the problem is. I bought these as blemished with the understanding that they would just have mild finish blemishes. However the finish looks fine, but they are not straight.
Some of them you can even slip a dime under when you role them on the table. I called GT and the tech said that the blems can either be for finish or straightness. He said that I must have got a batch that was culled for being out of spec not for finish but for straightness.
I guess this could be my problem with erratic flight and grouping?
Thanks
Dave
QuoteOriginally posted by Archer Dave:
Well I think I know what the problem is. I bought these as blemished with the understanding that they would just have mild finish blemishes. However the finish looks fine, but they are not straight.
Some of them you can even slip a dime under when you role them on the table. I called GT and the tech said that the blems can either be for finish or straightness. He said that I must have got a batch that was culled for being out of spec not for finish but for straightness.
I guess this could be my problem with erratic flight and grouping?
Thanks
Dave
It sure doesn't help your case much! That's a bummer I've heard a lot of guys buy blems and are very happy with them