I am not wanting to start an argument here but am just passing on my findings and thoughts of those findings. Please think before you post.
Well for the past couple seasons I have decided that a two blade is the head for me. Out of my 50 lb bows I have witnessed their benefits over a three bladed head and I have shot plenty of them with three blades. The deer I killed yesterday is a perfect example of why.
The shot was perfect as the deer was quartering away and a steep 8 yard shot angle with me about 15' above. It entered high of center at the ninth rib.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/3464xfm.jpg)
Excited the rib cage low at the fourth rib.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/nx5jr9.jpg)
Then the head passed right through the deers left elbow breaking the leg. It was flopping as it ran off.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/az9g0z.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/257lxdu.jpg)
After passing through all that and the leg bone my arrow was laying on the ground on the opposite side of the deer.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/330cole.jpg)
I have shot enough deer with a three blade to know if I were shooting one here I would have most likely been watching my fletchings bounding down through the woods with the arrow plugging both holes.
Now there is no doubt the three blade would have killed the deer. But If I I were to have been a touch lower and only hit one lung for some reason I may not have recovered this deer at all or at the least not had near as good of a blood trail.
For anyone shooting at 50 lbs or less like I am with my 27" draw and trying to decide of which way to go let this simply be food for thought.
Thanks for the info. I have been looking at two blade broadheads to hunt with this fall. Debating between the single bevel like you are using and a double bevel like the Ace Standard.
Dave, there are many point of views on single or double but mine is that I can get singles much sharper and here is why. To sharpen an edge you must work on one side of a blade at the time to work up the micro thin rolled over edge of metal you can feel with your fingernail.
With a three blade you can't work on one side of the blade at once. When its laying flat on the stone you are creating that raised edge of metal on one of the blades but the other blade that edge is being removed at the same time and since it takes many more strokes to raise the edge than to remove it and hone it you are simply fighting against getting them as sharp as they could be all the time. If that makes sense.
TJ what head do you have there. Also what is the specs of your arrow.
Good info.
You certainly make a valid "point'' for a two blade broadhead. I don't think anyone can find fault with them, especially with lower weight bows. I've had a lot of success with a two blade Bear or a two blade Magnus with similar weight bows like yours.
Bernie
A two blade head has been doing the job very well for a long, long time. :thumbsup:
Terry,
2016 aluminum Arrow/insert weight is 407 grains, and 230 grain single bevel Grizzly broad head (head 185, adapter 45). 637 total grains.
Those Grizzly broadheads sure do a nice job !!! Very good information as usual Tom :thumbsup:
Bill
Good info, I have had the same results this year. All pass through.
I shoot 50# with a 29.5" DL, and I love my 2-blades!
Bisch
I thick that 637 grains helped.
I have mainly shot 2 blades or at times 2 blade with a bleeder (zwickey deltas)for 40 years, im one if I find something that works I wont wander far, still shootin zwickeys and ole 2020 xx75's . I have shot several animals where the arrow went between ribs in and out with little impact trauma, and usually a shorter run.. a couple even went back feeding after being shot but bled out very quickly.I do like the thoughts of a big hole that a big 3 blade makes, but I haven't have a single failure or lost animal that I can blame on the 2 blade heads ive been shooting for years.
For bows of around the weight I have to agree that two blades mostly perform better. Just switched to Grizzly Instinct heads and have a hog hunt wnd of February, will let you know how they do if I draw blood.
I completely agree. I'm getting rid of all my 3 and 4 blade heads. I can't really see any advantages to having more than 2 blades.
That's cool, shoot what you are confidant with. I am convinced I get better blood trails with 3 blades.
All the deer I've ever killed have been with two edged heads - Magnus II, Rib-Teks (narrow & wide versions), Stos. All excellent heads. One of my Stos heads has killed three deer and is still on the "lead arrow" for that bow. Broke the shaft each time but the head just needed resharpening.
This last season I tried a three edge (Modoc Dot) but no shots were presented. I've always gone for penetration and wood shafts of around 600 to 620 grains. Eager to see what a three blade will do.
Just need an obliging deer.
I've killed deer with both, including; snuffers, woodsmans, zwickeys, magnus, ace.
The two blades are what I am currently shooting with great success. Two deer this year with the same arrow and BH.
Keep 'em sharp!
Hey Tom,
I'm fortunate to live in a very "deer rich" area, that provides many opportunities each year for broad head testing. Here's what I've found.
2, 3 and 4 blade heads all "can" provide great blood trails, however I've also experienced poor trails with each one of these. If we put any of these heads through both lungs we will almost always see the deer go down.
Where some of the larger 2 blade heads and multi blade heads shine is with the less than perfect hits, especially hits too far back. If we do hit too far back the big heads will put more sign on the ground. On the other hand bigger heads with more blades do tend to penetrate less as a result of their design.
Like Tom I only shoot 50 lbs. I've found the skinny Axis arrows help in penetration, so that's a free lunch for me. I prefer the one piece heads over heads that need an insert.....inserts do break and must be aligned. 2 blade heads by design get sharper and hold an edge better, especially the stainless blades ( :scared: - my opinion). Getting very sharp and staying sharp is very important! I hunt a lot and in and out of the quiver dulls a head quickly.
Here's my top heads.
Magnus Stingers for sharpness and staying sharp
VPA 3 blade for toughness
Simmons heads for insane blood trails
I stopped trying to decide which design is better a few years ago. Shoot which one flys the best and you can get the sharpest.
:thumbsup:
Good post Tim, I would like to try some thinner shafts some time. I still have witnessed many three blade shots through the ribs that haven't passed through with my bows. The deer have tensed or twisted in trying to run from the shot and I think that pinches the shaft stopping it quicker. That doesn't happen near as much with a two blade head for me.
I do agree if shot through the guts it may be better with a three blade but I shot my buck this year there and he went 80 yards and laid down. We found him there the next morning.
I still think the pluses of the two blade out weigh any other option with our lower poundage bows.
I do agree that you should use the head you can get the sharpest. Another much often overlooked piece of the puzzle is shooting a bow that you can get tuned the best. Arrow flight is a major key in penetration. If an arrow is still in paradox and hasn't stabilized when it hits a deer it will greatly decrease penetration.
You know Tom, many folks don't spend enough time shooting their broad heads prior to hunting. Not all broad heads fly well and many do not shoot the same as their field tips.
I'm a tuning nut and I will spend hours doing everything I can to get perfect arrow flight. Once I get it I will shoot my broad heads. Some will fly the same, others will not. You're dealing with a longer tip and wind/blade issues. I can't emphasize enough the importance of making sure your broad heads fly where you are looking.
I spend the last two weeks of August narrowing down what broad head shoots best out of my current setup. I shoot them at 30 yards over and over for days. After several dozen shots you will find some heads are more forgiving, some dive, some rise and some do circles.
I really believe the decision to choose a 2 blade or a multi blade should be based on consistent and "perfect" arrow flight. Once you achieve this with a few different style heads, than you can pick which one will best meet your needs.
I do agree with your comments about the benefits of a two blade head at lighter bow weights. This year rather than go with a two blade (or a 3 blade that I've shot for the past 5 years) I went with a small 4 blade Magnus Stinger. I know you shot this head for years. I had great blood trails, perfect flight and their very easy to get sharp and keep sharp.
Worth reading again!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Another much often overlooked piece of the puzzle is shooting a bow that you can get tuned the best. Arrow flight is a major key in penetration. If an arrow is still in paradox and hasn't stabilized when it hits a deer it will greatly decrease penetration.
Great info
Thanks
I used Grizzly 200 grain this year to take 3 deer. I believe I will use these heads for a long long time. Might try a tuffhead. Also, might buy a similar screw-in head. They are the perfect broadhead for me.
Tim, I know you are a tuning/tinkering freak. Haha. I hope you didn't think my comments weren't directed at you, I was simply adding the tuning comment for anyone who may read this in the future.
The Magnus Stinger 4 blade is a great head. Those little bleeders are fantastic and less apted to impede penetration as a larger three blade even. I did have a couple of those little bleeder bend up on me though with a major bone hit. That's what got me off of them.
"Where some of the larger 2 blade heads and multi blade heads shine is with the less than perfect hits, especially hits too far back. If we do hit too far back the big heads will put more sign on the ground. On the other hand bigger heads with more blades do tend to penetrate less as a result of their design."
X2 - I've decided to use the Palmer Extreme Cut 4 blade for Deer and I used the Phantom Two Blades for boar hogs after this years results.
:thumbsup:
.
I have been considering switching from 4 blade broadheads to 2 blade, (Simmons Tiger Shark, 175 grains), this year. I have no complaints about my 4 blade broadheads, but just want to see what kind of performance I can get out of a 2 blade broadhead. I mainly shoot broadheads when practicing, year around. I have a set for practicing and a set for hunting. It's very costly when it comes to targets but well worth it. But what I found out is like you said Tim, broadheads get dull really fast pulling my arrows from my quiver, putting them back. That's why I take the time to sharpen them up every so often. But I also found out that I will have to retune my arrows again because I believe they get banged around to the point to where they are out of tune again. Great post and thanks for all the information.
I use either VPA 3 Blade or Magnus stinger 4 blade. To be honest I can not pick one over the other. I usually carry a 3 blade on the ends of my 3 arrow EFA holder with the magnus in the middle.
I agree with the 2 blade bennifits. Easy to sharpen, penetrate best, fly great, etc.
I shoot the wide magnus 2 blades that are 1.5 inched wide and have killed probably 50 big game animals with them and never once wished I had more broad head or more blades. I can't punch thru a shoulder blade with them but the blood trails are great and the penitration is awesome. I have a short 26" draw as well. If I ever hunt moose or grizzly I'd probably switch to a narrower head, but on deer, elk, caribou, black bear, and hogs my go to is my 2 blade wide magnus for all the reasons you explained.... Great post!
Well k think you are full of ___ no not really I love my two blade heads , I'm going to get me some of the ones you are shooting. Have wanted to try the single bevel heads for a while now and now I blame you when my wife sees the bill. I have knocked over many a critter with two blade heads and do love em...
,,,,Sam,,,,
I have had a question asking if the single bevel heads really keep turning inside an animal. The answer is yes.
I know this first off because when I shoot them at home into my foam target when pulling them out the shaft rotates in my hand as the head follows the path it made going in. I also know this because the outlet cuts/holes in critters aren't aligned with the entry holes.
As the shaft hits the animal and keeps rotating in the direction the fletchings are spinning the shaft instead of stopping the rotation when flesh is hit has to help with penetration somewhat. This is another reason I prefer a single bevel two blade head over a two blade double bevel.
I love a 2 blade.
I think a three may produce more blood, but I can get a 2 blade shaving sharp. Never been able to get a three blade shaving sharp
I'm with you Tom, I shoot about a little more wieght and longer draw but if I were under 50# I'd be shooting a good 2 blade.
TJ, what do you think about the Magnus stingers with the bleeders (4 blade), do you feel that the little bleeders would impair penetration or do you think they are so small it wouldn't really make a difference? Thanks for your input
Sam, I used them for a couple years. I liked the smaller bleeders for better penetration over a larger bleeder, but gave up on the heads when I had a couple of them bend up as they hit bone. Not a huge deal as Magnus will replace them free if you send back a damaged head.
They are made well and all spin very true. I liked that the back of the blades were sharp. That has to be lethal when the head doesn't pass all the way through and is inside the critter as it runs off chopping and dicing up stuff.
I just switched as I wanted a more solid option. The day Magnus makes a single bevel I promise you I'm buying a pack.
TJ,
I share your preference for 2-blade broadheads, but not sure I follow your logic on the difficulty of sharpening 3-blades. With the possible exception of the file, most 3 blade sharpening methods involve pushing/pulling the head from heel to point across the sharpening medium. As far as can tell, you are raising the "burr" that you refer to on 2 blades at a time and removing one each time you rotate. I would agree that a two blade would allow metal to be removed at a more acute angle than the 3 will allow (basically limitations of an Isosceles triangle, 1/2 of 60 deg.)and that the single bevel reduces that potential even further. I think the 3 blade may hold an advantage in facillitating the "sharpening challenged" that don't have clamp type systems to hold the exact angle automatically when it's laid flat. I'll concede a keener angle is possible on the two-blade, but I think it's easier/quicker to get a shaving sharp edge on the 3-blade.
I am sharpening challenged and as hard as I've tried I've never been able to get any three blade head near as sharp as I can get a single bevel two blade because I can't raise that burr like I can on a single bevel. My reason to why is the only reason I can come up with as to why not. Not saying it can't be done, simply saying I have never been able to do it.
I have been shooting 2 blade Zwikee Eskimo for nearly 40 years. Have taken Elk, deer, moose, caribou, grizzley, mt. lion all with complete pass through shots. Bow weight is not an issue with me, as I have always shot 70 lbs. Two blade heads are easy to sharpen as well. I would really like to try some of the single bevel heads in the future.
I have been researching an Africa hunt and all the outfitters I talked to only want you to shoot 2 blade heads. I also saw some photos of several 2 blade single bevel heads with broken tips after hitting an African animal. Makes me wonder which single bevel head is the best???
Nothing real scientific with my post but what I have observed in the field. I have hunted with 53-56 pound recurves for 18 years now. Over that time period the data set is over 100 critters. Starting out it was aluminum arrows (2016, 2018, 2117) and 2 blade heads (magnus 1 and STOS). Had a few pass throughs (arrow buried into ground) many entry and exit hole shots and some no exit where arrow buried into offside shoulder or just didn't get broadside exit (rib, movement of deer upon impact, ??). Then switched over to regular diameter carbon shafts with same heads. Penetration noticeably increased. Then came the smaller diameter carbon shafts (Easton axis, etc) with 2 blade head, unless I got into shoulder went through like butter. Then came the Woodsman style head on small diameter carbons. Unless get into shoulder every deer I have shot with woodsman or VPA 3 blade with Easton axis has been a pass through (all with 56 lb shafer silvertip). If I was going to shoot wood, aluminum, or regular diameter carbon shafts out of 55lb or less bow on deer sized critters I would recommend a 2 blade head, how ever once you get into the smaller diameter carbon shafts the penetration will be better than with the other shafts no matter what head (assuming good cut on contact fixed blade) you are shooting as compared with the larger diameter shafts and blood trails on marginal hits have always been much better for me with a 3 blade exit wound. I guess my opinion is if shooting lighter weight bows, I would be concentrating on the best arrow material and diameter for penetration first, then look into broad head design.
Good post Adam, 56 lbs is a world of difference over my 47 lb bow though. I haven't tried the thinner diameter shafts yet but I will the next season. I hope there is something to that as you are the second person I have heard say this.
Is there a fairly high GPI thin shaft? Around 10.5 gpi?
8yrds w/ that or most setups similar, will push any 3 blade head thru that deer. If it doesn't, Something isn't right.
Biggest benefits w/ 2 blade heads is you get real good at blood trailing animals.
TJ,
Just FYI over the last few seasons I shoot a 56 lb FF 62 inch silvertip. Easton Axis 400 cut 29.75 I think, with VPA 175 grain 3 blades and 3- 4 inch shield cut feathers. Only bad part is that I used to like to tinker with arrows and set ups. haven't done any tuning to speak of in the last 3 years. Just shoot and hunt.
TJ,
I think Easton FMJ's may be higher than most, but I don't know if they're that high without loading.
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
8yrds w/ that or most setups similar, will push any 3 blade head thru that deer. If it doesn't, Something isn't right.
Biggest benefits w/ 2 blade heads is you get real good at blood trailing animals.
Not if shot through the middle of a leg bone. Like this deer was.