Been saying this for years....check it out...
http://youtu.be/eQ5fkdN0tuI
Wow, that is very enlightening, thanks for sharing!
Cool video!
No such thing as a void space in the chest cavity!
Bisch
Yep,I never agreed with the dead zone theory. When guys would tell me that they hit'em there, i'd just yes them to death for sake of an argument.
I would have to agree with this video too. Never lost one yet in over forty years when putting the arrow into the boiler room.
Nice find, thanks for sharing.
IMO the mythical "dead zone" is above the spine--and the video illustrates it!
we get so used to generic 3-d target scoring that anatomy gets ignored!
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/Lethal-vs-Nonlethal.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/kittitiny/media/Lethal-vs-Nonlethal.jpg.html)
could be the top of the "8"ring--but the deer will run off !!
No disputing anything that fella said, he had the goods right there to prove it. Very cool view of that deer, thanks for posting. Imo the dead zone is a shoulder hit, I've harvested deer that had survived shoulder blade hits, and I've seen firsthand how easily the shoulder blade of a deer can deflect an arrow, especially if there is any downward or upward angle to the shot.
Interesting.
Neat!!!!! Great post!
Jake
Nice to see a demo.
That is what I call "cool confirmation"!!
Thanks for posting.
Great information if nothing less! Every hunter should have the chance to see this.
Great stuff Curt, thanks for sharing!
Very informative. Good watch!
Very Cool. Thanks for sharing.
I always loved the "void" argument...I wanted to ask if they had actually done an autopsy on a whitetail before. Spine, spinal cord, intravetebral artery, lung...dead in, anything above is backstrap.
It is nice seeing it being illustrated so well. Something to note: look at all that space above the spinous processes and vertebral bodies. 6-8 inches of space to miss high :)
Thanks for sharing!
I posted here on TG a few weeks back about this same taxidermist's anatomy target he created with Vets.
Like Guru- my pet educative issues are: 1) The spine actually sets almost half way down the anatomy of the deer at the front of the chest cavity. From actual experience and my own autopsies I am convinced that many unrecovered "high lung" hits from treestands are above the spine. 2) When the the leg moves "back" the shoulder blade moves "up" and out of the way. When the leg moves "forward" the shoulder blade actually moves "down" covering a part of the lungs.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=141159;p=1#000000
good info... makes sense that the lungs fill the rib cage.
http://www.ultimateanatomyorganbuck.com/
Very informative Curt...thanks brother!!
a most excellent share - thanx curt!
Thanks Curt!
Great post Curt. This picture was briefly show in video. This is almost the identical angle of my arrow in my recent post. I mentioned it's all about angles and inches.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/Wyoming1/ee982cd572ff397ad01ade799bd13a16_zpsd402d512.jpg)
This type of post is so important to what we do. Thanks again.
Finally....good find, Curt!
Very good info..
One thing I've noticed about videoing some harvests is what you see is usually different than what happens, if only by a little bit it can change the shot completely. I also think people don't realize they hit above the spine if they are close to the shoulder and think they hit the so called dead zone.
Great video! :thumbsup:
Thanks
Nice video. However, a doctor commented on this video in another discussion forum that the lungs are rarely if ever filled to the capacity that he shows by using a compressor to fill them out. For the most part the lungs are in the relaxed state. If you positioned that deer upright you may have a different view. I'm not advocating there is a dead zone but hitting the top of the lungs that lye under the spine does not necessarily result in a mortal hit.
Thanks for sharing this one, I'd have to disagree with this one a bit:
1)The lungs are rarely inflated to that level
2)Marginal lung shot doesn't mean a lethal shot
I agree that realistically there is no real "dead zone" and can see why mixed results are the norm with shots in this area. Medically speaking, in a relaxed mammal the lungs will be 40-70% inflated as opposed to 100% as seen in the image in this video. I have personally seen other hunters deer survive a shot in the "dead" zone mostly because the lung(s) were not hit in a major pulmonary artery or vein. This results in little breathing obstruction and slow blood loss.
Another take away from this video is the "low and back" shot from an elevated stand. Take a look at the lungs fully inflated and one can see that this shot is not cool!
Nice video, but the dead/void zone has been debunked many moons ago. And speaking of moons, so has the moon-phase rut correlation BS.
Nonetheless, they will persist regardless of science as there is no need to let facts get in the way of a good story - as they say :-)
Thanks for sharing though.
This is really great information. I don't admit to knowing much about anything, but unfortunately I have made more than my share of bad shots with trad as well as wheels, and have followed up tracking for friends in the same boat as well. I absolutely agree with Krex1010---the shoulder has been a huge problem for me. Part of my problem comes from my tendency to hunt high in a tree---we have a ton of pressure here in central ohio and hunting lower this time of year gets me busted. When I have hit the shoulder I have not been able to recover a single deer shot there. Of course I read on another site how this guy shoots deer in the paddle bone with low poundage bows and always recovers them---he also denies the existence of paradox. But I don't live in a magic place and when I make a bad shot it does not work out well for the animal---I have put my bow up for the remainder of the season because of this in the past and continue to practice daily. The information shown on the video really supports the advantage in quartering away angles and why quartering to presents issues with regard to shoulder blade.
I did once shoot at a doe this time of year when she was sporting her winter coat. After the shot the doe ran behind my tree and continued to stomp for 2 or 3 minutes--sounds like a miss right? Well when she took a couple of steps I was able to make a good second shot and when I later skinned her I found the first arrow had passed through her backstraps. When I went back the next day and found the first arrow I would have sworn that it had gone low and hit brisket as it was covered in fat with very little blood. We're always learning. Thanks for the info.
Curt...we should add that to the whitetail area in the shot placement thread....find a post in the whitetail area you can edit and put that clip in there.
Great stuff.
I'll agree that lungs won't inflate as much as with his compressor, but they will fill the entire cavity. There is no empty air space around the outside of the lungs. The only air space is inside the lungs.
Great find, Curt!
I don't understand why there is confusion as to a deer's anatomy for anyone who has killed a deer. Do some guys just send it to the meat processor every time? Really good video, but don't think it's new info to anyone who has cut up a deer.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Curt...we should add that to the whitetail area in the shot placement thread....find a post in the whitetail area you can edit and put that clip in there.
Great stuff.
Done....added to your first post in the thread bud
Thanks for sharing Curt !!! Great stuff :thumbsup:
Bill
Cool post.
I have been arguing that point for years just had to do it again with a friend who shot a deer high this fall!
Good stuff!!
One correlation that I have not seen mentioned is blood trailing. I agree that, anatomically, there is no dead zone. I think we can ALL agree that a double-lung hit puts an animal down quickly (if we didn't, ethically, we shouldn't be bowhunters).
Deer that are hit high, especially if there is no pass-through (the scapula can be a factor here), have bleeding that is primarily captured internally decreasing blood loss on the ground and complicating blood trailing.
I shot an anterless from the ground this year. The shot was high through the lungs. In the 30 yds he covered before resting for good, there wasn't more than a spec of blood on the ground; but, when I field-dressed him, all that coagulated blood came spilling out of his chest cavity. We've all experienced this before.
My point: is a dead-zone more of an excuse for not recovering deer that were "hit high", because our ability to track these deer was compromised by a lack of blood on the ground?
for some reason I get sound on the commercial but not on the video.
Mike
Shot a deer twice one season. The 1st on opening week on the ground at 10 or so yrds. Hit in the dead zone and never recovered him. A month later, shot the same buck. Go figure!
A couple people mentioned that lungs are not fully inflated in a relaxed animal to the extent done in the video.
But...
The expansion/contraction of the diaphragm and slight flexing of the rib cage are what make breathing possible in mammals. This enlarges and shrinks the lung cavity to make positive and negative pressure to pull/pull air in and out.
So...
Even though the lungs are not expanded to maximum capacity, they still fill the entire space in that lung cavity. There is no "void" of empty space above the lung, even in a standing animal...
I sat in a ladder stand this evening for my last-gasp (unsuccessful) bowhunt of the year, and thought of this thread as I passed the time. One more thing came to mind that I can't remember ever seeing mentioned in discussions like this:
If there was a "void" below the spine that allows an arrow to pass through without hitting lung tissue, as some believe, what is that void filled with?
If it is air, where does that air go when the lungs fully expand? If it is "nothing," would not that be a vacuum that would pull the lung tissue up to fill that space?
I would have rather been shooting a deer, but when nothing appeared within range, I "got to thinkin'." That's never a good thing...
OK, I'll quit!
Party Poopers!....Buzz Killers! You guys are overly anal, lol. Everybody should be entitled to a good excuse occasionally...facts be d***ed!
My conclusion to this is, Aim center mass...
Hawkeye is spot on; negative pressure keeps the lungs in contact with the chest wall regardless of the position of the diaphragm in a normal individual. A space only develops if the vacuum is lost...there's a number of ways that could happen. Arrows are generally pretty effective at this, btw. ;)
There's a Whitetail area somewhere in the forum?
There is a no man's land, right ABOVE the spine. I also believe that a deer can survive a 1 lung hit, but most so called no man land hits appear to be top lung hits but actually are even above the spine.
http://huntingunderground.com/the-void-myth-explained/
This is another education photo I have used for years on points made above. This deer was hit hunting off the ground. I usually ask: "So where is this hit?"
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/anatomyspinehit-1.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/danrudman/media/anatomyspinehit-1.jpg.html)
Follow up to the question:
Dropped the deer with a spine hit.
NOTE: The bottom of the sternum is 2.5- 3" thick. Then the front narrow area of the rib cage. The spine is down just shy of half-way from top to bottom in this front area of the shoulder. I am convinced there are many non-recovered deer shot from treestands that are hit in this "void" region. Its all meat!
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/webshotbroadside2.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/danrudman/media/webshotbroadside2.jpg.html)
Good info thanks for sharing.
very informative. Thanks.
Thank you! I can't wait to show this to a buddy that seems to hit deer in the "dead Zone" quite often. He's hunted and cut up his own deer for years, and should know better. He's a taxidermist too, by the way, so maybe I shouldn't tick him off, just in case I need his services this year. ;) Thanks again.
Bob
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks Curt
Good stuff.Thanks for sharing.
If you go over to AT and search a couple months back, Joe Paranee has a trail cam pic of a buck with an obvious gash from a broadhead through the area in debate. It had no ill effects and was killed later in the season. Not stirring, just saying, from this demo that arrow would've had to take out the top of both lungs.