Trad Gang

I am in the process of gearing up to buy a lightweight durable tipi to use for pack ins and other hunting where less weight is important. I have never owned a tipi before so I would appreciate input from you seasoned backcounty tipi users on what you feel is important to have and what is not.  Also, is there anything you would like to have in a tipi that would make it better if you could custom order it?  I am aware of the main two tipi makers Kifaru and Seek Outside.  Any others I should consider?

Kifaru is the 800# gorilla in the tipi market. You can buy from them and not spend any time wondering about quality, features or other problems. They perfected the lightweight sil-nylon tipi.

I've known a few Seek Outside owners, but I think they sold their units...not sure why.

Titanium Goat is a serious player in the UL tipi market and has great stoves, too. My friend just bought a complete rig from them, but I know he hasn't pitched it yet.

Important things for me: Good zippers. Plenty of stake points. Strong top cone and center pole. Condensation liner mandatory. Inside clothesline. Stove jack for woodstove. Light color for good interior brightness.

Ignore the man-ratings. A 4-man is hardly enough space for 2 guys and gear on an extended hunt. 6-man is basic for 2 guys with stove. 8-man is super comfy for 2 and very good for 3...4 will work but a bit tight with gear. Know your likely terrain and soil types, as it will affect the stakes you use. Learn to pitch your tipi exactly as instructed and keep it tight during the hunt. A loose or flexing/flapping tipi body is a recipe for breakdowns.

I've been looking into them myself. Ability to stand is my main concern, looking hard at the Kifaru Sawtooth.

I have a Kifaru Sawtooth and my brother has a six man seek outside.  Both outstanding quality. My buddy also runs one of the Seek Outside backcountry shelters and is happy with it. EdT's backcountry probably has the best stoves. Ed designed and built the box stoves sold under the Kifaru label.  Last I knew Ed's buddy Levi was building them. I've little experience with TiGoat but I know their customer service can't touch the other two.

Mansfieldoutdoors.com has some good looking ones with good choices of materials and sizes. Worth a look.

The  main questions are costs..and weight.

Do you want a stove?  

If no stove, I'd opt out of the Kifaru imho.  nothing against those using them, as they are DAM FINE tents.  I want one but packing isn't an option on a 4 man when weight is an issue.

The price of even a cheap Kifaru is another topic of discussion.  Again they are fine tents by all means but imho way over priced!!!!

You are however getting a tent that is backed by a great company amongst other things..did I say they were dam fine tents!  I've also stayed in one multiple times.


All that said, for a guy who has to work on a NORMAL working mans budget and is looking for a quality tipi with a quality budget, find this.  if you cant fork out the 1500 bucks on a kifaru, this would be my replacement for it.

Shangri la 2, or  shangrila 3 tents by golite

I'm not sure If the 2 is even being made anymore, being replaced by the 3.   The 2's weight comes in at 2.5 lbs!  that's smoking compared to 99% of the tents on the market half the size!

Holy crap I just realize that go lit has filed for bankruptcy!    Looks like we missed the sale of a century.

Steve,

You are going to be in the middle of nowhere.

Seek Outsides are 50/50 feedback wise

Ti Goat is 75/25

Kifaru is 995/1000

The price difference is not worth it to me when I am in the middle of nowhere. I've seen problems first hand with with both other brands with friends. I trust my Kifaru completely.

I have a six-man Kifaru with a stove and agree with everything Kevin says, including the need for a liner, which costs extra.  I don't have a liner.  Works ok without one in the dry Western states in early fall, but when I use it for spring, summer, fall camping in humid Wisconsin, it does get wet/clammy inside.  A good, complete ground cloth reduces the condensation, of course.

One other thing to consider in selecting the size t-pee is its footprint.  They're rather large, and it can sometimes be a problem finding enough level space to erect one in the mountainous West.

There's an 8 man Kifaru in the classifieds!

Kifaru are nice until it rains and it gets wet. Then your talking about some serious weight to change camps. I went with a Hilliberg Akto and a tarp.

No, not really.  I would also add the stove is the key.  If you don't desire a stove I think the tipi shelters give up a lot to many others.

QuoteOriginally posted by The Night Stalker:
Kifaru are nice until it rains and it gets wet. Then your talking about some serious weight to change camps. I went with a Hilliberg Akto and a tarp.

Hah, I'm going to disagree on that 100%. Shake it out and stuff it. Wet weight would be way, WAY down the list on why I would not want to put it up and take it down every day.

Thanks to all who have given me input so far!!!!

Let me expand a little more on what I want.  I have pretty much decided on an 8 man so I can stand up in it (I am 6'1"), there is room for up to 4 people (kinda like a base camp) and lots of room for 2.  Imprint is something I have thought about but feel I should be able to make it work for what I intend to use it. I am committed to buying and paying whatever needed for what I feel is the best tipi.  I am just looking for input on tipis.  I own an Akto for bivy hunting.

I know Kifaru has almost a cult like following with a well earned solid reputation and strong resale.  I bought one of their backpacks after extensive research and really like it a lot.  I too feel they are overpriced but I am willing to pay it if I feel they offer the best.  There is one thing that has kind of turned me off on their tipi and that is what Patrick wrote about the Kifaru Tipi on their website and what I read as him taking digs at Seek Outside... which makes me feel SO is taking a bit out of their sales to generate that kind of website response.

I was very close to pulling the trigger on a Seek Outside 8 man ($325 less then Kifaru base modle) and would have had I had the money last year, but I didn't.  I have looked at reviews and have not found any negative on SO only positive ones. And while they do not have the years under their belt or following of Kifaru, they do have a following. I think SO has also made a lot of improvements over the years that put them on par with Kifaru...Just my humble opinion.

Now that I have the money, I have decided to step back and really research this throughly and get as much input as I can before I pull the trigger...and look at more than Kifaru and SO.  I do not want to look back with a regret.

Has anyone got any experience with Wyoming Lost and Found  www.wyominglostandfound.net (http://www.wyominglostandfound.net)  ? I came across them recently and they have really caught my eye and interest as a high quality option.  They offer a fabric option called Dyneema (I am told stronger than any of the other two makers and still very light weight) and they do some things different in the construction process that I think is worthy of cehcking out....like seams that have no thread exposed to the weather and therefore do not need to be seam sealed.

So far it is clear Kifaru is the perferred tipi maker but I'd still like more input.

PM sent, Steve.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Hansen:
PM sent, Steve.

I own a Sawtooth, if your only 6'1", you should be able to jump up and down in a Sawtooth as I believe it can be set to 7'2".

I've struck camp under rainy conditions with my Sawtooth, shake it off, stuff it in stuff sack and go, never noticed if it was any heavier.

One suggestion, if your packing in for one person, I wouldn't get anything larger than a super tarp with the amex. I wouldn't own any of them without a titanium stove. If your clothes get wet or you want to dry your boots off or anything else, or cook, or just warm up, the stove will do it.

My Sawtooth with the Poles & pegs, and the stove, plus my UL3700 ci back pack and with the add on pockets that bring it up to about 5500 ci all weigh less than 10lbs. I think the Sawtooth is too big for one person if your packing in.

By the way my Saw was still standing after a tornado passed by, so I know they can take it.

Good luck

That move was with a 4 man with steady rain with a liner. I got soaked. I guess I did not shake it enough. From 5 miles to 8 miles in. I definitely noticed a difference in weight. The stove is key with the kifaru. If you do run into weather, you can dry your clothes out. If I was going to buy another, I like the sawtooth set up.

The stove is the driving force behind me wanting one was well.  And the fact that real winter tenting it Alaskan style is a possibility in one.  I have a trapping buddy whose out in -40 temps living in one for weeks on end.  

The main issue is weight.  The tent, liner, steaks and stove are not what I'd call a remotely backpack style hunting set up!  That doesn't detract from it being a dam fine outfit! Though I do believe are awfully expensive, like you I'll pull the trigger on quality gear.  Before Kifaru packs there was barneys.  I've pulled the trigger on two of them now and am looking for a 3rd as the first one is well about dead!   You pay for what you get and those that know me know I put that first one through heck and back a few times. If you're looking to put gear through the ringer I'm your man! If there is ANY chink in something I will find it usually in a hurry! Where other gear has failed me, ie broken frames, or severely jacked up pins to tearing stitching etc, the barneys pack keeps on trucking.

If weight isn't an issue I wouldn't look past the kifaru....but you started with weight and as a sheep guy I know all about weight.  I don't have the money to dump into multiple cub flights because I want 'cush' gear.

I don't believe hilleberg tents are any lighter than anything else.  They do have a gigantic vestibule.   They in theory seem like a great ten and proved as good as any on a goat hunt a few years ago...but I don't think I'd warrant the price, and for a tall guy even in the giant hooch you wont fit in it!  I'm vertically challenged to a degree, my partner wasn't and he didn't fit in his model at all!  I'll have to ask what one it is if he doesn't post (he's also a tm guy).

Kifaru certainly isn't the only act in town, but I have no doubt that they are one of the top ones. I guess for Steve C it's definitely going to be a tipi, and it comes down to which make & model. I personally don't think there's a better tipi being made than Kifaru; just different ones. Some may suit you better, but you've got to do the research. Study the specs and learn what you can. Some of us are people who just can't walk a trodden path and have to find our own way. I am definitely that way, and was nearly 8 years ago when I decided on a tipi. They weren't very popular back then, and just a few guys had them. Angelo Christiano, John Havard, Nick Dedekar and a few other hardcore gear guys (who bust tail in the mountains) helped me get my head straight. I spent the big bucks back then and never regretted a dime of it.

Since then, a lot of tipis have been built. None of them are perfect, but some have more bugs and issues than others. Kifaru was the company to modernize the concept and bring it to the forefront. I can easily understand Patrick Smith if he had any heartburn toward the competition which quickly recognized an opportunity to compete on price and perhaps cut some quality corners. I see that in my business too, and it rankles me that competitors can be like leeches in the water. P Smith is rightly proud of his products and willing to defend their quality and price...just another solid American doing business.

Let's place 5 tipis out there and label them all by name. Let's assume you're leaving on a hunt tomorrow and you know the weather will be wild with snow, wind and rain. You've got to pick one tipi right now, and know it is worthy. I'm willing to bet that a clear majority would go with the proven name, and one that has had an excellent reputation for a decade or more.

AkDan, it's interesting that you say if someone wants some camping equipment tested that your the man for the job, and I don't doubt it but, did you know that Patrick spends way more than 200 days a year out in the bush testing his gear before he ever puts it on the market. Most of the ideas and patents he has, has come to him while he was out camping or testing, and doesn't just go off the road, he goes way,way back off the grid. I've met him more than once and he is a real nice guy.

Love my Sawtooth but haven't really used it to pack far in as yet. If your going with two people the Saw is perfect as you can divide up the various parts of tipi.

IF YOU KNOW YOUR GOING TO USE THE STOVE, YOU DON'T NEED THE LINER AS THE STOVE WILL RID THE TIPI OF ANY CONDENSATION.
Also, if your going solo, you only need half of the liner for one side of he tipi.

A liner is still darn nice when running a stove. A stove may be able to rid western condensation but I've yet to find one that can get rid of condensation when running it here in the Southeast.

The owner of Wyoming lost and found posts pretty regularly over on another site I frequent. He has some interesting designs and materials.  I know in the past he had quite the reputation for being a "drunk" but I was happy to see him recently post that he had been sober for a few months.

I'd still put him well behind the others for your needs.

If you have a sever condensation problem get a tipi or tarp with the anex and make sure you can have two openings, this will help dry it out. I  am thinking of sending my Sawtooth back to have a small door put in on the low side or opposite side from the front, but so far, it hasn't really been too bad with the condensation.

I'm going to install Velcro on my liner ties to help with a faster setup and tear down of the liner, or if one is not packing in, you can just leave the liner on when stowed away.

njloco...

I'm curious about your Sawtooth. How do you think it would perform as a one-man + gear basecamp for elk, moose, caribou in the backcountry? I've been considering one for Alaska this fall. Super Cub in, weight-restricted on gear, etc. Thanks.

I own a Kifaru 8 man, but I'm working with Brian at WYOMING LOST AND FOUND for my next one.   WLF has 6 folds in the seems and he wraps them around an inner paracord.   He has no exposed external threads to seam seal upon delivery.  Kifaru has 4 folds and stitch holes you can see light through.  

Two annoying things about Kifaru:  
1) Seam sealing repeatedly

2) The stretch factor in the seams.  This stretch causes sag almost immediately and every day I'm raising the pole/ readjusting the stakes to keep it taught.  If it sags it luffs in the wind and drives me crazy.  (sailors also know luffing ruins fabric.  Check out a flapping tarp after 60 miles of luffing.  Its nearly tattered.)

Brian,I think, has solved both of my major gripes.   The internal cord ed seams means the first time you pitch it, you get it tight and it stays tight.  The rolled seams are pretty ingenious as well.  

I have used my Kifaru for 8 seasons in both Alaska and countless days in the Montana backcountry.   I breed and pack Llamas and thus my Kifaru has been through the ringer.   They are still the industry standard.  But like all things, it is far from perfect.  

On a side note, Brian and I are designing a ultra lightweight, floorless, wall tent hybrid that I think is going to be the cats meow.   I'll keep you posted.    I should have the prototype this summer to test out.  

Jeff

I've got a Kifaru 6 man tipi and I really like it.I've had it since 2006.With that said I've heard nothing but good things about Seek Outside

Nj, I have no doubt about a kifaru being a quality tent. Its on my hit list to buy!!! I do believe I mentioned that.  They're a dang fine tent by all standards.   For what the OP is asking for, a light weight tent he can stand in, I don't think the  kifi is it....  the sawtooth is what 4.5 plus stove weight?

What I'm saying is if there's a flaw I'll find it, its not bragging, its the simple fact I use my gear and use it hard....I spend plenty of time outdoors a year and none of it is in easy country, in the ditch or in the middle of no where!  I'm not bragging about being someone better than anyone else....just stating the fact I live in a hard country on top of being hard on gear....if there's a chink, it surfaces usually quickly.

I do question all of the kifaru's weight, the saw-tooths being the lightest he can stand in.   A 6 man sized for 2 is not what I consider packable or remotely light, add in the stove etc...its not a good solo tipi imho!

at 1400 bucks with the liner and a medium stove, its also not cheap.   I think there is better options.  But that's coming from a sheep guys mentality.   4lbs is too heavy for 1 guy!

"Light" is definitely relative to the person and their intended application. There's "sheep light" and then there is "light" for all the normal people.    ;)   It might help if we knew what weight he (Steve) needs to stay within, and how many people will be occupying.

I can remember when a 4-season x 2 man geo-dome tent was easily ten pounds many years ago. Sub-4 pound shelters were an anomaly. So were backpacks under 7 pounds. Things have come a long way for us ounce/gram-weenies. A 4.5# Sawtooth sounds pretty light to me, considering the headroom and overall footage. A liner drives it up to 5.8 pounds, but that's not even close to my 8-man w/liner, 4 section alum pole and sack of pegs. I get a bit weird when I look at a shelter that packs down smaller than my jacket, and I know it has to protect me in weather that might kill me.

As for a stove, totally optional. Leave it behind for high elevation or serious UL trips. No way would I backpack a stove, except for use in a basecamp setting. Even small titanium woodstoves are a luxury with weight penalty (however small) and easily set aside to save ounces or pounds.

Good discussion.

Kevin, reading old sheep books and their packing lists makes my back ache to this day LOL!  if you ever get the chance find Duncan Gilchrists sheep book, if you're lucky  you'll find his original which rings of Doug and Yotes ground.

the one joy of where you're chasing moose...you have plenty of wood at the location....and still within hiking range of structures.   Even in sheep country a similar situation saved my bacon in 2002!  Solo, 16 days, dead ram, complete camp, 25 mile hike, and terrible home made dehydrated meals I ended up not eating.  Basically I was starving myself.   I honored my buddies wishes not to eat meat without him (never again!!)   it's an epic weight loss diet LOL!   head first into a creek with a pack you cant stand up with, bear getting into a stash of gear and raft and a partner who didn't show for another week.   I cant wait to get back!  

5.8lbs with liner, plus stove.  If I go with a tent like this a stove is a mandatory option!  I'd be out chasing wolves on my days off if I could afford a 6man kifi and the large stove!  the savings account is growing albeit slowly, hunting even for a res is not cheap by any means and I'm not touching your cub hunts, I can only dream and view the valley by winter.   We do have an arctic oven on the line near your hollowed grounds though I gave up my spot on the line this year.   Its just not worth chasing wolves at the price of fuel and wear and tear on gear.

There's no such thing as bomb proof.  I believe Mike and John had a kifaru basically explode in those Tok winds.   Location location location!  Camping on a hill in Kansas has its consequences LOL!

AkDan, you say their are better options, but do not list any of them.  I would be curious to find out which ones you find better then the Kifaru or Hilleberg setups.

I' personally have a Sawtooth, hilleberg Atko, and Hilleberg Soulo. I haven't used these tents outside of coloroado and montana, but I have never had a problem with any of them.  This includes being used at 14,000 + ft, above tree line in high winds.  The Atko is the only one that I have had "sag" in heavy wet snow.

The Kifaru brand isn't for the weak-of-wallet I agree. That's no cheap shot on anyone either. I had to think long and hard on my tipi 8 years ago.

I have a friend in central AK who swears by his Sawtooth. He's used it from seaside (Kodiak, etc) to mountain-top (after sheep) and everything in between. Now...he's not hunting solo and usually has at least one other partner in camp. He's as completely hardcore as I've ever met.

I'm good to go anyway. I hope this thread has helped Steve figure out what he wants in a shelter for his hunt(s). See you on the mountain.

For those of you who are on a tight budget, but still interested in this type of shelter? Do a search for Appy Trails Mark v. Lots of people happy (for the money) with this shelter, especially during the early season...

Kevin I agree with Dan, the Sawtooth IS NOT a good one man tipi for really packing in. That is why I will probably go for a Super tarp with the anex. If your going with a partner hunting then the Sawtooth is good, because you can split up carrying the parts.
I will use the Sawtooth if we use pack animals and the Super tarp for packing in.

QuoteOriginally posted by njloco:
Kevin I agree with Dan, the Sawtooth IS NOT a good one man tipi for really packing in. That is why I will probably go for a Super tarp with the anex. If your going with a partner hunting then the Sawtooth is good, because you can split up carrying the parts.
I will use the Sawtooth if we use pack animals and the Super tarp for packing in.

So if I read you correctly, your main Sawtooth objection is the weight at 4.5+ pounds. In a drop camp setting (bush flight) that's a non-issue usually. Any other downside?

Kevin, I don't think a sawtooth is out for you at all.  As a matter of fact if I don't go with the 6 or 4 man the sawtooth is going to get the nod for the first.   The 6 is going to end up a winter tent for me...heat heat heat!  -40 leaves something to be desired even in a -60 bag LOL!  But I have to ask if you're doing the same moose trip which I assume you are and knowing your conditions and location, what's wrong with kicking the kifaru out the door.  You cant get in with one plane, which I'd doubt even with my pack would be possible. I've had it at 52lbs for 12 days solo with spotting scope.  Its changed since than and my weights jumped up a to 54/55lbs.  My goal is 14 days at 50 solo.  

Tutanka,

The hard part is finding a packable tent that's got the standing room and isn't heavy.  What can you live without, weight? heater? space?  By heavy I mean 4+lbs.  I asked some questions that went unanswered for the moment, and offered up what imho is the best option at a fraction of a kifaru in cost and just as durable.  I again for the 3rd time will not in any way dispute kifaru's being great tents and have spent time in them!  and like I have said multiple times in this post alone WILL own one myself in the near future.  IMHO, a tipi with the liner and stove is NOT what I, myself, would consider packable by any stretch of the imagination!  Throw in the liner which I've been told and have used is recommended for what I'd be using it for (and we used in a September hunt as well), you up your weight even more. Thsis the reason I threw the kifaru out of the mix.   There is no wrong answer here, some are great, most are good with a few being well off the chart (not posts but available tents).  I don't believe buying a kifaru is anything better than good for a light weight packable tent even though its quality and room to weight ratio, plus the added stove option, it lacks in the weight department....and of course the 1500appx cost depending on model and features you go with.   Money well spent if its a tent you'll use, but not a back packing tent a most folk are going to want to hump any serious distance.

 The tent I offered is no longer made and I didn't catch that until after I posted originally, it was by far the best in class that offered everything, weight, room, but lacked a stove. It sleeps 3 comfortably and the weight is crazy light! I was going to post a link to it complete with specs, but found the bad news.  That doesn't mean you cant find one if you looked for it.  For a person who doesn't need heat and wants to maintain weight I still believe the shangrila 3 without the tub is by far the best tent going!  With the tub you've jumped into the 4+ lb range From a little over 2lbs which means the sawtooth comes close enough to be considered.

My point is this there are a plethora of tents on the market.  There are 0 bomb proof shelters even though some companies advertise as such.  Its pretty obvious to guys who have spent any time in them that some do better than others.   If you camp on top of a hill in a tornado, well..you get the my drift!  There's some common sense to tent camping in severe conditions! I wont be caught dead on Kodiak in nov with a clip 3 cd...but wouldn't hesitate to run the north face for a later hunt where in an early august hunt the clip 3 cd would be fine.   The gales of November were born on the south side of the island!

I've run everything from a tarp and a fox hole (thanks army) though quickly jumped to a bivy  up to a northface expedition 25 which btw is a great high wind shelter', but again lacks the height and heating capabilities a tipi offers plus it not light!  Unfortunately with the SL3 off the market, I'm back on the prowl.  The kifaru 6 man is going to be a winter trap line tent, or winter hunt tent, or a tent I don't have to pack around for any real distance, I have a use for it.  The sawtooth has possibilities but not likely going to be a regular tent, even at 4.5lbs its too heavy for a solo tent.  2 guys its ok. For what it is I might as well go with the 4 man with a medium stove and liner or the 6 with the larger stove.  The stove is an added benefit, but that jacks the weight up more in the sawtooth, along with the liner.   W did a goat hunt in a hilleberg, wasn't overly impressed other than the gigantic vestibule was nice.  My 6+' partner didn't fit in the tent either.    Its too much room (in the vestibule and not enough in the tent) and it wasn't light at 8lbs I might as well have brought my northface, (ands saved him a cool grand LOL).    

The end question is what do YOU want out of it, or in this case the OP.  What's the bulk of its use going to be.  What's your budget?  What is considered light/packable?  how much packing is involved (on your back).  How many guys are going, is it solo, or a 4 person tent.  

The sad story of it is, I had the answer, until I saw the go lite is no longer made at this time!

here's a viable replacement for the shangrila 3
   http://www.backcountrygear.com/black-diamond-mega-light-blue-grey.html#.VLf2nU05DkA

That's ^^^^^^^ a good post, thanks for taking the time to write it.  

I hump my sawtooth with stove solo all the time (I use it strictly for winter backpacking).  I think a lot of guys forget how long you end up in your shelter in the winter months, with the short days.  To be able to stand and stretch out for me anyway is a must.  For this reason alone is why I don't run any of the Kifaru tarps, not enough room to stand up. Come summer I switch to the hillebergs.  For me anyway, I don't even think about the weights. I can cut weight far easier in other places than my shelter.  But, i would be an idiot not to agree with some of the stuff you just posted.

As well, I'd be foolish to turn an eye to that sawtooth with a stove for any camping!  If you don't mind the weight.  That is the underlying question!  What is acceptable to the user at hand.

Here's a crazy light tipi.  I really should be finalizing promotion paperwork.  The allure of a new tent has put that on hold for the moment haha!

check this beast out at 17.6 oz!
  http://www.backcountrygear.com/ultralight-tents/hyperlite-mountain-gear-ultamid-2-man-cuben-2-person.html#.VLf7UU05DkA  


Ps, I'm familiar with short days, try north of the article circle in the end of nov early dec after bou with 3 hours of daylight LOL!  Man that heater sure is a nice commodity!   Plus dry cloths!   Tried -50 one trip with 25mph winds thrown on, put windchills in the ridiculous category, I lasted 2 days and had to pack up.  Froze my rear end off in a wiggys bag but don't tell Marc that! LOL   I would have turned up my nose at the stove in my younger days, these days I'm getting soft!   :)

According to the specs I found on the shangrila 3 it weighs over 5#. So unless your using it as a floorless tarp the weight is going to be up there, and you can't really stand up in it.

I do know the Sawtooth will stand up to some pretty high winds and downpours. If your going to go for a 4 man might as well get the Sawtooth. The Saw can fit four people in an emergency. I've been it with some really heavy wind swept rain and the ground inside never got wet, I can't explain why it didn't, it just didn't!

In my opiion, I noticed on the Kifaru forum that many of the Sawtooth tipis that were sold were to people going from a four man tipi to a Saw, I never owned a four man so I don't know why that would be.

"For a person who doesn't need heat and wants to maintain weight I still believe the shangrila 3 without the tub is by far the best tent going! WITH the tub you've jumped into the 4+ lb range From a little over 2lbs which means the sawtooth comes close enough to be considered."

as a floorless tipi, just like the kifaru's, its 25.7oz, 11.3 oz pole, and 3 oz steaks.  That's right at or very close to 2.5lbs given my math, typing and information is spot on perfect which I highly doubt the stars are perfectly aligned.  Regardless its very very close!  This very tent is widely used (or soon to be was) by a small group of minimalists that trek remote parts of this state, Canada and other countries.   I had the privelage to sit in on a pretty note worthy seminar.  Though a lot of it doesn't pertain to what we do, some of it does.  When guys like this talk, I intently listen!   I'm just a sponge, and as a disclaimer a hack after 25 years with a stick in my hands, 20 years in Alaska...I've abused a lot of gear, very few of which has survived, what has has my undivided attention!   I know there's many ways to skin this cat and I'm all ears for them.  Its a constant game as the markets trying to get rich and I continually try to lighten my load.   At some point as you'll find those few ounces here and there can equal more money than I care to throw at things!  I'm a planner when it comes to this stuff, though I've sluffed off as age has grabbed hold, I look forward to researching myself and learning from others.   Like I said more than 1 way to skin a cat!

Stuff and stake sack stays home for me unless weight is not an issue.  Mind you I usually run out of space before I bypass weight!  My first sheep trip into the wrangles in 96 at 73lbs as a young buck was an eye opener!   Thankfully I was carrying the food, my pack lost around 2-3lbs a day.  We weren't critical of weight back than.   Lessons learned!

With the tub and mesh (they are essentially combined into one piece), you tack on another 33oz's which would be correct will push you to the shangrila into the 5lb mark, which puts you in range of the sawtooth without the liner/screen and with a stove.

The sawtooth starts at 4.8lbs without liner or netting.  Tack on another 1lb 2.5 oz for the liner, 5.4lbs for the tent and stove without liner.  and 6.6+lbs for the total tent liner and stove.  I'm opting for a medium stove.   Not the smaller version though I'd bet smaller is better than none.   I know when its cold I've been warned to go to the large, the medium cant cut it, in reference to the 6 man tipi.  If I'm carrying a stove in the sawtooth it would be the medium.  

This is splitting hairs for most people, understand that!   If you're not into drilling holes or cutting your tooth brush, ripping tags off, and basically trimming any excess fat this debate is really moot.  For some guys an additional 2lbs is ok.  For those of us who have to hump everywhere, everytime, 2lbs is a great deal!

Another fun fact you can thank uncle sam for....

ever 1lb of boot weight is the equivalent of 10lbs of pack weight.  So the next time you're thinking about boots, think about your use, needs, and over all weight.  

In the grand scheme of this game, ounces equal pounds!

Another thing a guy has to think about when he packs a stove is now you need a viable way to cut wood and split it.  Split wood burns hotter.   You can saw wood with a Wyoming saw, but again that's not light.  There are lighter options that don't leave you with a way to split.  For kicks you throw in a SMALL hatchet, or the Wyoming saw and call it good...that 6.5lbs or so has now jumped and is pushing 8, maybe more.   I'm sure the stove is worth it, but these are things most people by pass initially when they look at total pack weight!

I've spent a fair amount of time in both the 4 man and the Sawtooth.  In my opinion these two shelters are not even close, I would choose the Sawtooth every time. Being able to pull the walls out on the Sawtooth gives you way more usable space than on the 4 man.  The 4 man really pushes a person in towards the center of the tipi. The only thing that I personally like on the 4 man over the Sawtooth is that the stove on the 4 man is in the center; whereas, the stove on the Sawtooth is really close to the opening.  If the 4 man had two entries this would also be a bonus when two people are in the tipi.  Also, I personally feel that you divide the tipi number in half when it comes to how many people you want in the tipi, i.e. a 4 man = 2 people, 8 man = 4 people.  This is with gear, stove and fire wood.  

Another thing to keep in mind is are you only going to use the shelter seasonally, or year round.  I personally only run a stove from mid September through the winter.  After that I opt for a lighter shelter.  A stove is nice no doubt about it, but are you planning on running a stove or like suggested above are you simply looking at weights.  It really does boil down to the needs of the individual.

I was SO happy to get rid of my 4 man. My 8 man and Supertarp give me all I need.

I have a friend who had a Seek Outside center pole break and have heard of a few more do the same thing.

Are any of you who have all this room in a Sawtooth over 6' tall?  Just asking because "theoretically" I could stand up in my 4 man according to the specs. In actual reality there was no chance.

I run a Black diamond megalight. They also make a megamid that's the same size, different fabric, but heavier.

You can buy a TI goat stove and stove jack kit, or Seek Outside stove, ect.... if you want.
Also good to add tie-out points center wall to give a little room and prevent sagging.

But....you couldn't stand in it.

I like the Kifaru 6 man TP and their mid sized stove. Pretty sure Kevin(?) from Seek had a big hand in the stove design.....It works good for fall hunts with 3 or maybe even 4 guys. You can have a stove, hang gear, keep packs in the tent, ect...

If your on a budget look at Oware. They don't have the crazy big name mark up. I run their Cat Tarp and my pards run some of their other stuff.
  http://shop.bivysack.com/Pyramid-and-Alphamid-Tarps_c4.htm

The 11x11 TP should let a guy stand hugging the center pole.

My buddy bought a Seek Outside 8-man with a carbon fiber pole and a large titanium stove.  I've helped pitch it every time it's gone up in elk and deer seasons, slept in it for 4 or 5 nights and spent several more shooting the breeze around a glowing stove.  Probably not used as extensively as some folks on here have used theirs, but we've had no issues with it whatsoever.  

Not a tent, I also have one of the Seek Outside packs and have nothing but good things to say about it.

Good stuff Tut thanks!   Thanks also Chesapeake!  That goat stove looks pretty dang slick!  Did you do the mod on the black diamond or have it done professionally?  I'd assume the 3" is more than enough to dry off and bust the chill/boil water?  Their tipi's don't look half bad as well.   Good site!

Has anyone tried the Kelly Kettle?  I've been eye balling them for 2 years now.   might pull the trigger, be good for fishing trips anyways.

QuoteOriginally posted by AkDan:
Good stuff Tut thanks!   Thanks also Chesapeake!  That goat stove looks pretty dang slick!  Did you do the mod on the black diamond or have it done professionally?  I'd assume the 3" is more than enough to dry off and bust the chill/boil water?  Their tipi's don't look half bad as well.   Good site!

A guy can sew it himself fine, done it both ways. They will sew in a jack, and add guy-out points, ect... for pretty reasonable.

My experience with the 2 or 3 stoves we've had has been the same. They burn kindling, need constant attention, have 2 modes (glowing and cold), and you get all sooty trying to put them away. But dang its nice laying in your sleeping bag toasty warm feeding the fire.

You can boil water, but I find my Jetboil Ti to be better for that.

I have a Singer Model 503 Slant-O-Matic sewing machine I use for such things. Its old school all metal, it sews or it breaks the needle. I get my fabrics from "Seattle Fabrics". Yes, I'm a guy with a sewing machine. I've made a good amount of gear.
My next project is knock-off wiggy's waders. Seattle fabric had all the materials, even the sand textured rubberized cordura for the soles. I'll make maybe 3 pair for the price of 1. But at $60 a pair buying isn't bad.

Kelty's Noah's tarp is also a great product. We used 1 for years for a backcountry goat shelter, or a tall shelter alongside the tent for standing around BS'ing, cooking, ect..... Its just poly coated polyester/nylon. You could make your own cheap......

If you Know how to use a sewing machine you can make yourself some real cool s..t.

Has anyone tried using Tyvek for making a shelter ?

For years we used tyvek for throw mats for the floor of our TP's. It's light and all, but really noisy. It sounds real tinny and rustly (yes those are technical terms) with any slight movement. As a shelter it would be unbearable. Also it quickly looses its water resistance when it's folded and kinked. It fuzzes out and breaks down.
You can buy silnylon or PU coated polyester for plenty cheap enough that there is little reason to look for alternative fabrics.
If your running a small R&D budget then buy a cheap blue tarp and make your shelter from that till you have your design perfected. You can cut and sew it like any fabric.

Thanks for the info on Tyvek, I've been using a hammock for the floor when and if i need one, it's one of those hammocks that can be used for multi purposes.

I've been using Tyvek for years. Ground cloth, meat tarp, shade tarp, etc. I've folded the edges and taped them, then installed grommets. I once hung a Tyvek bag filled with 3 gallons of water, and it didn't leak a drop in 24 hours. If you take a new piece of Tyvek and just spend 5 minutes crushing and scrunching it in your hands it will be 75% quieter than when new. The stuff is cheap and strong. If you don't want to pack it out, just burn it completely. It leaves no sticky mess in a firepit.

I studied and plotted and saved until I found my ideal sewing machine; a Bernina 830 built back in the 1970s. I love this machine and it sews like a Swiss watch. Making or customizing my own gear is immensely satisfying. I can sew anything from sil-nylon to nylon webbing to leather and heavy wool. Now I just need to have Lasik done so I can see what I'm doing, lol.

As UL stoves go, they all are like having a toddler at dinner time. You have to feed them and keep an eye on them. They're a bit fussy and tend to take a crap at inconvenient times. Still, I haven't found anything better than staring at a flickering woodstove and hearing the pop-crack noises as I fade out.

I can tie flies like a mad man, but cant sew to save my life!   I'm luck if I don't break a button before I'm done trying to sew it on LOL!  I plum gave up on it lol!

Kevin, I wouldn't consider the Kelly kettle light, assuming that's what you ment by UL.  But it does alleviate fuel on my summer raft fishing trips.  I don't cook, just boil water, the KK would give the option for both if so desired.  Looks slick anyways.  I typically carry my snowpeak unless its early or late in the year than I'll jump to the whisperlite.  Ironically (or maybe not depending on how well you know me LOL), I'm not a big fan of the jet boils.  I do like think the MSR reactor is a better (faster) stove without all the frills the jet boil has.   But honestly I really like the compactness of my snowpeak and its light weight I believe on shorter hunts under a week out weighs the Jetboils.   I don't do coffee so its basically just a water boiling system for my uses.   The KK wouldn't be in my sheep pack by any stretch, or any other hunts/trips where weight was a real issue.

I thought the KK might be a better option for fishing/camping/hunting trips that are not so weight snobbish LOL!

Sorry I don't mean to get off topic.  Maybe we should throw out a wilderness gear thread and let it roll, I know there's a pile of guys on here with a LOT more experience in these departments than just a handful of us.

For the record: I have an 8-man and I won't ever be without one at least that size, along with a good stove. This isn't backpacking gear. It's basecamp-only and that's it for me.

I've been looking for a lighter (than 8-man) and smaller shelter suitable for 1-2 men + gear. It needs to have great wind-shedding ability and standup room is a huge plus...extremely huge, if going to be stationary and used for more than 4-5 days. It should be backpackable if desired, but most of the time it will not. For my money it's going to be a Sawtooth and stove. I've got a hunt planned in higher country where the 8-man stays behind.

I think you have it figured out Kevin.  I have a 6-man Kifaru. A little taller than the Sawtooth, but a bigger footprint as well, and that can be a problem in steep country.  I think the Sawtooth, with it's steeper sides probably has more room than a 6-man.  Not more than an 8-man though.  Of course its weight and footprint is also much less.  Would make a decent base camp for two people I think, as wells packable in most instances particularly with a partner who can carry the stove, pegs, etc.

Does anybody have any experience with the bear paw designs Luna 4 or 5 tents?  They look nice on paper and are pretty reasonably priced.....  http://www.bearpawwd.com/tents_tarps/luna.html

Personally, after talking/communicating with 3 makers of tipis, which I zeroed in on, Kifaru, Seek Outside and Wyoming Lost and Found, along with people who use their products and getting input form many people through threads like this...I feel there are as good or better options to Kifaru tipis out there, some cost less and other more.  Look at all the options pointed out in this thread that other have used and like. To all you diehard Kifarue tipi users, I am not saying Kifaru tipis are not quality, they are!  I am saying if you go into buying a tipi with an open mind, as I did, and really look at what is out there, one can get a comparable american made quality tipi at a lower cost with a lot more really useful bells whistles at less cost. You can also get ones more expensive.  

The Sawtooth design is intriguing to me for all the reasons Kevin and other have pointed out.  An 8 man tipi and a Sawtooth would be a great setup for just about any camping setup I would want.  I would like to be able to walk into all my shelters and that will only beceome more important as each year passes.  I think this is the route I will take...as money allows.

Chesapeake...the person you so eloquently called "That drunk Wyoming guy" has a name and based on everything I have uncovered in talking to him and his tipi users, Wyoming Lost and Found makes outstanding products and he is an incredible craftsman. He has been nothing short of professional and good to deal with!  Not once did he take a shot at his competitors to discredit them...unlike what I got from another company.  Not sure why you felt the need to portray him here in that ugly way?  I trust you are a better person than what that comment portrays.

hear hear!

I wish someone would make a Sawtooth type tent that is a little taller, a little longer and slightly wider. One that will fit 3-4 people well and have the stove moved to a different location "If that will work" It would need a liner of some type. I think the Sawtooth is perfect for 2 people but if you ever have 3 or 4 folks going it's going to take two tents or a large TP.  I am still on the fence on what to buy, either a really large 12-16 man TP or getting a Sawtooth for me and my Dad and telling my other hunting partners to bring something of their own. ;(

It's a basic tenet that a 3-4 man (or more) shelter isn't going to be what 1 or 2 guys need, unless weight and space is of no concern. If that's the case, get a 12-man tipi. I can fit 4 in my 8-man, but it's tight and (with stove and firewood) some gear might get left outside. A 12 would be perfect and a 16 is a palace royale. Anything beyond an 8-man for two guys is overkill and luxury. The Sawtooth (which I don't own but have studied hard recently) is not designed for more than 2 really, but 3 can pinch in there. It's a unique design and doesn't lend itself (I think) to a larger size. I'll take the bigger tipi every time until weight/space is restricted, then it's time to downsize.

I've run the gamut. We started with a mega light and jetboil. Allowed 2 or 3 guys to pack in and carry a deer out in 1 load.
Then we added a Ti stove. This added weight and reduced the tent to a 2 man. We added a mega light. Then we could do 4 guys and 2 deer.
Then we added pack goats and we could do a deer for each guy. But then we wanted more comfort so we added a Kifaru 6 man and medium stove.
The goats were a year round pain so I sold mine.
My current setup is back to the mega light and jetboil. My pard still has the 6 man and stove. It's good for a cached camp, airplane base camp, rafting, car camp, ect.....
In my view it's only packable if you plan to make trips packing meat, or you have non-hunters along.

I think I have found the common shortcoming we are all pleagued with...MONEY! Lack there of...to own a tent for every situation we may need.

Chesapeake...I knew you were better than that comment! Thank you for proving it!

Aggiland...I feel your pain...I too am always looking for the setup that is best for everyone I hunt with...not just my needs.

In my tipi exploration I ran into a tipi owner who raises Alpachas and uses them to hual his gear in.   P Smith used goats in one video I saw.  I think for us guys who are getting older this would be a nice addition for packing in...then you can take that 12 man.

Lots of good info in this thread for sure.  The only other thing that I might add would be to talk to Evan or Scott at Hill People Gear.  Given, they do not make a shelter, but the have used seek outside, kifaru, go-lite, and some others that I can't remember.  I've always gotten good advice from those guys, they are straight and too the point. Might be worth a email or phone call.

Nobody is more critical of Kifaru gear than Kifaru owners. Scott & Evan used to regularly critique their offerings, and they held nothing back. I've been critical (but honest) in my appraisal of some of their stuff, as I saw it and used it. Nothing is perfect anyway. After 8 years of hard use, my 8-man is going strong and I still marvel at how nice it is. Considering the original price and what used ones bring, it's arguably a best-value on the tipi market.

Goats stink and are noisy. I refuse to use an alpaca or llama. Anything that spits at me when unhappy would get clobbered and used for camp meat. For what animals cost year-round I could probably hire a guy...pay his way...have him pack for me...and he could feed ME in camp.      ;)    

By the way: Anyone who hasn't looked at the newest TiGoat stove would be well advised to do so. I think their stove called the WiFi is a phenomenal design and solves many stove problems inherent in ultralight woodstoves. I sold all my Kifaru stoves when the WiFi came out.

I use a Hammock for all my lower 48 hunts when packing in. If I'm not packing in then i'm usually in a Camper. So this would only be used for base camping or fly in, etc hunts. I guess if that is the case, I should go big or go home. Is their any reason to consider having a big TP like a 16 man built out of 500 condura if It cost the same as the lighter weight stuff?

Kevin,

Of course you don't own stock.... You live in OH.   Last time I checked, there's not a lot of packers needed to drag a deer 200 yards.      :) .  And if you travel west, you'd be a fool to haul them out.  

But seriously, It's funny guys are so hung up on llama spit.  Let's set the record straight.   If you get spit on ....you are either afraid or you deserved it!    Truthfully, Llamas are the best judge of character I know.  

I packed horses for years before I made the switch.   I think horse packers are foolish.  So , I guess all things are relative.

But back to tents....I agree , unless you have 4 guys to haul gear.   Tipis and stoves are more of a packer, car or drop camp thing.

I'd give Llamas a try!  To hual my gear and test my character!  If they spit on me I do not know how I'd live with myself.

This thread has been very informative AND entertaining. I used to hunt a 22,000 acre sheep ranch near Devils Tower in WY. The rancher used llamas to protect the sheep from the coyotes. We had one guy in the group who was deathly afraid of them...and EVERY llama on the ranch would chase any truck we were in and "attack" him any chance they had. I've never laughed so hard in my life. They knew when Jimmy was riding in the back. Llama spit is some of the most foul smelling nasty substance I've been near; but I am belly laughing just thinking about the old days    :laughing:

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
Goats stink and are noisy. I refuse to use an alpaca or llama. Anything that spits at me when unhappy would get clobbered and used for camp meat.

Off topic but.....I don't care if goats stink.  They probably think the same of me BUT, a goat will eat your tipi if you don't watch him closely

QuoteOriginally posted by Montanawidower:
But seriously, It's funny guys are so hung up on llama spit.  Let's set the record straight.   If you get spit on ....you are either afraid or you deserved it!    Truthfully, Llamas are the best judge of character I know.  

Llamas are awesome in the back country.  They eat what is available (you don't have to take in feed) and they're camelids so they don't need a lot of water.  They follow you wherever you'd like to go, just like the neighbors dog.  They don't like coyotes or bears or wolves.  They'll let you know if any are near your camp.  The only "liability" with llamas is that you have to move the around so they have food.

Now, back to your everyday friendly tipi discussion.
homebru

Here's a little vid (from a few years back) of my eight man Kifaru in a Llama spot.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPMwK15oXT0

This is eight miles in, on a dry ridge that is very exposed to wind.  The only water source is a mile away.   Because llamas only need water every 3-4 days... We had pole position on this herd for the weekend.  

Turn up the volume to max.... I'm whispering.  Funny you can hear my heart pounding.   a 340 bull will do that to a guy.   :)

just like everyone- we all have our own quirks and idiosyncrasies. very personal likes and dislikes.
and why any purchase may be a compromise of sorts, or after we buy something we all "customize" it a bit- to suit us exactly.- but thats why i build all my own gear( obviously i still buy some gear) tents, packs , tree stands, bows etc etc.
i know not everyone has the resources or tools to do this- and also, most often it works out more expensive than just buying something, and living with a compromise . a few prototypes getting your design right- and you have already cruised past a retail value on something . but hopefully you get exactly what you are wanting!

back to the original point, i have followed this thread from the beginning, and looked at all the links, and products mentioned- and have to say, that for ME and MY intended use, i would still prefer the sawtooth, and maybe with one of those "goat"stoves.   :D  
cheers

To be fair, I should let guys know that a vast majority of my travel hunting is done in Alaska. I can't afford to take livestock with me and get all of us in the 100 or so miles from town. And then there are those annoying grizzlies and wolves looking for an easy snack 24/7. Speaking of...my family asked me why I like a floorless tipi for Alaska hunting. I told them mainly because if a bear gets inside while I'm gone and takes a crap (they always do) I can just move the tipi and 'I'm not taking any crap from a bear'.   :p  

I enjoyed that video posted above...good stuff for sure!

Sawtooth going on order next week. I think my next sewing project will be a sil-nylon windsock for my little campsite on the ridge.

Kevin are you serious about the bears in your tent?  Would enjoy sharing camp up there with you someday!

Kevin, you're welcome to spend some time with my sawtooth if you would like before ordering. I believe I hunt in your neck of the woods.

Kelly Kettle is pretty good gear but the "Backcountry Boiler" is a better mousetrap.

I've had a kifaru 8-man for over 10 years and a couple of different stoves. I've used it in all terrains and situations.
I am not part of the cult following or care in anyway which one you end up buying.  But I have spent many years not only using my tipi but reading about the others and I'll share what I think.  FWIW.
First, I do not know about the lostandfound tipis.  If they do what someone here said then I'd definately consider them.
Second, I agree with almost everything Kevin Dill has said.  If you are usually going to be with 2 guys and gear, for several days, with a stove, and maybe in bad weather, etc. etc., Do not settle for anything smaller than an 8-man, period.  Just don't do it.  I actually now want a 12-man.
The kifaru tipi is made up of triangle sections that are sewn together.  Very strong.  Seam sealing is a non-issue.  I've never sealed mine after the first day and its perfect.  I have had my tipi in hurrican winds where the stakes were pulling out of the rocky ground and I had to pull the pole and lay rocks on the tipi to keep it from disappearing.  Before that it was insane inside my tipi and I'm so glad it was Kifaru.

If cost is a show stopper on the kifaru then I would definately go for the SO.  look carefully at their specific sizes compared to Kifaru.  They are not the same.  I'd get the SO 12-man.

If you are a serious user of the tipi, consider that the few hundred bucks over the period of many years won't be noticed.  A year after you buy a kifaru you'll be glad you did it.

In the end; one way or the other, you'll get what you paid for.

Steve B...you know as close as I have been looking at those two tipis I did not catch the foot print difference; so thanks for pointing that out...it is different! 8 man tipi - SO 15"10' diameter & 8'6" height (a round tipi) and Kifaru foot print 18' X 15' & 8'6" height which means it is not round.  Does anyone know the usable interior space of each of these tipis?  

My focus has been more on the specs of the materials, "bells & whistles" people indicate are nice to have and experience from those using them.  I have come away with the following...With the waterproof zippers a zipper pocket at the top is all that is need to prevent leakage...not a full storm flap. A lot of people seem to like a sod skirt and many that did not have them either installed them DIY or had one installed. And a means to vent appears to be valued.

As has been pointed out, there is a wide range of what people like and want...it's a personal thing. For those of us about to venture into the tipi world, all we have to work from and ultimately decide what we must have in a tipi is from what we read and hear form current users...and the company people.  

I give far more credibility to those who use the product than a company person. That is why I ask the companies for references and reach out too those I find through various means that have some of the other brands to get their input.  

I have  found this tipi would is not shared by all friendly competitors...there is an ugly side.

Steve, I have to admit that after posting yesterday I went to SO website and checked out the tipis again.  They have changed, apparently.  I'm sure the heights of the tipis used to be different but it seems they are the same as the kifaru now...at least the 8 man is.  Also they have sewn panels.  Wonder why they changed?
There are enough SO tipis out there now that I'd think that if their material was not sufficient in strength that you would know about it by now.  So I might reconsider SO now.

The Kifaru oblong shape is nice because the longer distance is from zipper to zipper and that is the line where the stove sits.  So the extra space there helps.  But it is not a huge deal.
The sod skirt thing would come in handy at times for sure.  Most of the time,not so much.

The tipis get very hot inside when the sun shines, like a greenhouse.  Too hot sometimes.  When its cold outside that greenhouse affect is nice.  But the tipis really shine (no pun) when either the weather is inclimate or its cold and you have a stove to use with it.  

Good luck.

Venting my 8-man is quite simple. I simply unzip both doors a measured amount from the top (front and back) then place a short prop stick in each opening to improve air flow.

As many have said, there are no perfect solutions.  Since the mid-70's I've been camping all over Alaska chasing game each autumn.  I did a bit of medium-serious climbing during my residency there as well.  Having used everything from a bit of plastic sheeting to mountaineering tents to a 16-man kifaru tipi with a titanium wood stove I have a few opinions based on experience.  When hunting in Alaska I also pitch a Hilleberg Keron 4GT with double poles as a life boat if things really go south.  I do that for a very good reason - tipis, especially large ones, will not stand up to the kind of ferocious winds that a true summit-quality mountaineering tent will.  Having to set up an emergency shelter in the dark during a wind storm with driving sleet and rain in 35 degree weather will make a believer out of anyone.

No shelter is perfect.  But if you're considering a tipi then I can add my support to Kifaru.  Full disclosure - I have zero experience or exposure to any other tipi brand.  Remember when considering tipi size that a liner (absolutely essential most everywhere) reduces the interior usable space.  So go larger than you might have originally thought.  Being able to stand up inside of a tipi more than one inch away from the center pole also drives one toward a larger size.  My experience with tipis is that you should divide the "man rating" by 4 in order to know how many folks with gear it will comfortably accommodate.

Being in a place where you might die if your shelter folds down around your ears makes a few hundred dollars difference between a "good" shelter and the "best" shelter seem like an extremely good bargain.  If you're not going to be camping in a place where your life depends on your shelter then don't worry (much) about what you buy and use.  If you're going to be where you're totally on your own, you can't get out, and it will be days waiting if bad things happen then don't scrimp.

Remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

As a testimony to John's experience and advice given above: My partner and I were comfortably protected in a stand of spruce trees on the lee side of a river valley a couple years back. We awoke to a rattle of tarps and my tipi was flexing a bit...nothing bad...due to a fairly stiff night wind. This was unusual as we almost never get much wind in our camp. It didn't get any worse, but high in the tops of the trees we could hear the steady low roar of wind. What we had no way of knowing was what it was like up high. A huge weather system with high winds was sweeping in from western Alaska, and it was a monster. Airplanes grounded, trees down, etc. That same night John and his partners were dealing with the storm and an adventure they were thrust into. We heard about it later.

When daylight came, the high ridges were dusted with snow. The air was full of birch and aspen leaves flying like confetti hundreds of feet high. Clouds were racing across the landscape, and the steady low roar of wind could be heard far above us. We commented that it was nice to be camped low...but we had no idea how nice.

In 2013 we experienced prolonged cold and snow in our camp. One morning it was 7F and everything was snow-covered. Boots were frozen overnight, and the inside of my tipi was hoar-frosted 1/4" thick. We cranked the stove and got things warming...and the liner kept the frost-rain from soaking everything inside. My tipi wasn't a convenience on that hunt. We used it like you'd use an essential tool that you depend on. We were able to keep our clothing dried out and ourselves warm in some very nasty conditions. I recall thinking about how glad I was that I didn't have to crawl into a cold 2-man dome while dealing with snow, ice and debris.

It's one thing to be sitting comfortably in your chair and perusing the pluses/minuses of backcountry shelters. It's something entirely different to wake up and realize you're IN IT and you're absolutely depending on it to not fail or give you grief. Despite what you read, nothing is bomb-proof. Some are definitely stronger, tougher than others and built to survive. If failure is a very bad option, you'll likely buy a shelter based on solid reputation first. The bells and whistles won't mean a lot when it's roaring outside and cold precip is sliding down the sides.

first time, first post

hope i am made to feel welcome and i will treat all with respect and professionalism

wyo.

Wyoming, Tell us a little about your products. I was wondering how does the condura Tipi's compare to the lighter weight materials you and others use? Also wondering how much more they weigh and if a liner is still needed when you use the condura. Glad to see you posting.

I remember that day Kevin...I came out to find Mike posting of reports on John, I was geared and ready for a run to tok with my north face!  Mike and I were chatting on Fbook.   We were up north chasing sheep and caribou, and had managed to get out and back home slightly ahead of the nasty portion of that one thankfully.  100% luck!  

The fun part of living or playing in extremes is learning how to deal with the holy craps when they happen.  

John, you mentioned loosing space with the liner.  My buddy has the 6 and has yet to run the liner when I've been in it so I'm un familiar with the loss of room, how much do you figure?  The 6 with a stove and 2 guys is huge compared to what I'm used too.  I'm on the prowl for a smaller tipi for a one man rig with a small stove since I hunt solo 99% of the time.  It fits how I hunt well.   I may jump to a 6, or as another buddy keeps reminding me to go to the 8 with the liner for the winter trapline/hunting setup. Weight isn't an issue once winter hits as you're well aware.   I think I can get a smaller tipi in the 2lb range with a stove which puts it at my current sheep tent weight for later hunts without a liner for it and run without a stove in the earlier august hunts.

One thing that I haven't had to deal with is wet ground in a tipi.   I'd assume a small trench would alleviate any water coming in issues.  Any other tips?   My kifaru experiences are on either frozen or dry/light rain runs.  Nothing saturated like last fall.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aggieland:
Wyoming, Tell us a little about your products. I was wondering how does the condura Tipi's compare to the lighter weight materials you and others use? Also wondering how much more they weigh and if a liner is still needed when you use the condura. Glad to see you posting.

i use 1000 or 500 d. cordura for most of my tipis. usually 500 since the weave is tighter and with the quality i have sourced, i believe it to be as strong as 1000 anyways. an 8 man in the lightweight stuff such as ultrasil or treated ripstop is 5-6 lbs.  the same tent in 500 cordura is 12-15 depending on the avail. options i have.
the cordura is absolutely waterproof and does not breath. vents and or liners help the condensation but with a stove burning, condensation dries out quickly.

i started using dyneema and cordura over 5 yrs. ago. since the early yrs. the demand has grown steadily for a more durable option other than sil.
the dyneema is literally twice as strong and still packable while the cordura is a fortress that can be used as a towrope and will out perform any of the other highstrength/ high durability fabrics out there. i dare anyone to find a survivable weather condition that can bring down a cordura, given that it is fastened to the ground correctly and has a strong center pole. it is amazingly strong

WLF...welcome to TG! Appreciate your knowledge.

Thank you very much....
i am a diehard outdoors guy and this year is going to be a very good one!
lots of new things to be seen and used

Sounds like the Dyneema might be the ticket.. Do you ever build any Tipi's larger than 8 man?

Dan, regarding liners - I'd say you lose about 6-8" interior space when you put the liner into a tipi.  Not a very big deal in a 16-man but in a smaller tipi it would severely limit how far away from the center pole you can stand up.

Wet ground is the killer when it comes to condensation.  Pitching the tipi on a well-drained mountain in arid weather greatly reduces the need for a liner.  If you camp on a gravel bar or plain where the water table is not far under the tipi then you have to have a liner.  When the sun hits the tipi it becomes a giant solar still which cooks the moisture out of the soil and captures it inside the tipi.  Liners aren't optional then.

For winter trapline work I'd agree that an 8-man with liner would be the ticket.  The liner also keeps the tipi a bit warmer inside when running the wood stove.

Thanks John.  The larger kifi is on the radar, right now I need to replace my backpacking rig.  Last fall was a bit rough on it, that and its just to heavy for a one man tent without heat imho.

I'll have to see if I cant pitch my buddies with the liner and get a better idea, again I'm alone on winter forays more often than not.  

Last fall there was just no way around wet ground...we went from wet to frozen on my hunt anyways.

Through all I have done to explore and try to find out the differences between the tipis offered including the makers, fabrics, etc. I have come away with some interesting prospective....and direction.

One thing I wanted to understand is what specifically justified the price differences out there.  I set out willing to pay more for something that is truly better...I was not willing to pay extra for a "brand" unless I could justify it to myself.   At present the two main players in the tipi world are Kifaru and Seek Outside with others working their way up that ladder.  So I wanted to know specifically what makes a Kifaru Base 8 man tipi worth $325 more than an Seek Outside that has many "bells & whistles" I have concluded are wanted by the "majority" of tipi users ...whether they now have them on their tipi or not.  I have gotten far more input from Kifaru users...as this thread clearly shows.   The one thing I get from the diehard Kifaru tipi users, and believe me there are a lot of them, is they trust their Kifaru and it is worth paying the extra for what I will call "piece of mind".  I can understand that and support it but it's not enough for me to buy Kifaru. As best I can tell both Kifaru and SO are well liked and respected by their users and both perform under adverse conditions...sever adverse conditions.  I find people on both sides of the isle that have had failures and switched from one side to the other.  What I have not found is any one material measurable difference I feel makes Kifaru superior to SO or justifies that $325 more.   I have read Kifaru garners a better resale price.  Granted I do not frequent all the sites/forums where these things get discussed and/or sold, but of the ones I do, this is what I have seen.  There are far more Kifaru tipis that go on the resale market than SO, which one could argue is simply because there are far more Kifaru users out there...I do not know that for sure.  I have seen very few SO tipis listed for sale; but those that do, as best I can tell, get a good return on the resale market.  

The more I dug into fabrics the more I felt there has to be something better out there than Silnylon, which are your only options through Seek Outside and Kifaru. Seek outside I believe used to offer something different and maybe they can still offer it if asked....they do not have it as an option listed anymore that I see.  For those of you who have read the description P Smith writes about the fabric Kifaru uses you will know he states what their fabric is not is Silnylon...well despite that statement, a Kifaru person I spoke with told me, when I was trying to get out of him the difference between SO and Kifaru Fabric, is what Kifaru uses is basically Silnylon with a different coating. I even pointed out what P Smith states on the website.   So, for me, I summarize in my mind the only real difference between Kifaru & SO fabric is a Coating.   What I have come away feeling is both makers are well respected  and provide excellent  products but  what Kifaru has going for it over SO is an army of loyal and trusted users who gain "peace of mind" by buying Kifaru and paying that the extra cost associated.  I cannot find fault in that!

Back to fabric and my quest to find something better than Silnylon.  What got me really focused on "other" fabric options is when I was referred to Wyoming Lost and Found.  Brain over there offers a wide range of fabrics including Silnylon, Cordura and Dyneema...and maybe others.  As I understand it, 500 Cordura is his #1 seller, but for my purposes it is too heavy.  Dyneema Grid fabric caught my eye and interest.  I communicated with Brain about all his options and we went into detail on the Dyneema Grid.  Its weight and cost is a little more than Silnylon but its tipi qualities seemed better to me in that it eliminates one of the key complaints I heard about Silnylon...that it stretches/sags when wet .  Dyneema brings strength to a tipi.   So I starting digging into Dyneema on all sorts of websites, forums and talking to small business that make thing like backpacks and tents with different fabric types.  There are pros and cons to all fabrics. Sometimes Price is the biggest con!  After all this I decided I would have a 200 level Dyneema Grid tent made through Wyoming Lost and Found....with everything I wanted as extras.  Those that have Brian's tipis have nothing but praise for him, his craftsmanship and tipis.  The only issue I could find with WL&F was the owner hit the bottle too much sometime in the past.  For me he has been nothing short of professional, knowledgeable, helpful and willing to build me the tipi I wanted in the fabric I wanted...and his prices are very good....check them out for yourself.


Through all my conversations and communications with these small businesses out that that make outdoor products, I came on to one fabric that is even better than Dyneema  but no one in the tipi world I was familiar with offered it as an option...it is Cuban.  It has even better qualities then Dyneema and as best I can tell weights less than Silnylon... in the area of 5 lbs for a base 8 man tipi.  The big downside to Cuban...cost...It is expensive.  I discussed Cuban with Brian at WL&F only to find out he too is really interested in it as a tipi fabric....and was already  looking at offering it as an option.  So I scratched the Dyneema Grid tipi and am having Brain quote out an 8 man tipi made out of Cuban.  I know the cost will be significantly more than a Silnylon and Dyneema but if I can eliminate all the shortcoming of Silnylon with a stronger lighter tipi....and I can swing the added cost...why not?  
I will keep you posted as I travel this tipi road. .

dyneema has been my top fabric for a while and it is excellent for tents... i can't believe no one else has done it actually,  but i do prefer the 500 d. cordura for my personal projects because it is very very strong and darn it, just does not cost as much as dyneema.

when weight is an issue though, the 140 d. dyneema will surprise even the most skeptical gear head. it is light and much less stretchy than sil but also twice as tough. ripping it is a chore.

200 d. dyneema is slightly heavier and more substantial a fabric and bulks up the folded down size a bit but is a tad more puncture resistant.

This thread gets better every time I read it! Thanks to all who have provided input, and thanks to Steve for the detailed synopsis of your tipi search. I have learned lots. I hope the conversation continues...

Steve, I talked to Seek Outside about a Cuban fiber Tipi but the thickness or grade the Cuban manufacture recommended was to heavy for any kind of weight upgrade and very expensive.

i have several cuben sources which i will not be disclosing, that i can choose between nearly 30 different weights and weaves. colors are numerous and i am even working on camo...

i have played with the stuff and with the tapes and seams (stitching) involved with making a highly durable and lightweight product.

If the Cuben works then it's probably going to be a game changer in the Tent/Tipi world. A super strong and light weight Big tipi it what I have been wanting to order. Guess it really depends on the price increase of the Cuber fiber.

take the price of a top end tipi from other manufacturers and double it for one from me made of cuben. it is tricky to work with, requires a sterile environment and the fabric alone is extremely expensive. not to mention that they are not a stock item and will be made to order. and each one will be available as a full on custom tent... tie outs where you want, zippers in any location. special vents, floors, netting, custom stove jacks that i will make specifically for the cuben tents.... stronger and lighter..... plus i have a few other ideas brewing for the basic improvement of all tipis in my production.

as it is, i am the only one putting my zippers in with the teeth to the inside of the tent to prevent ice and frost/snow jamming. i do other things different, (my way) as well..

With the testing you have done thus far What do you think of the Cuben fiber?

it is the best fabric i have come into contact with strength and weight wise. it is just such an extremely expensive material that people are scared of it.

i absolutely love it for tents.

Just placed an order for a Sawtooth w/liner. After running down and comparing specs one last time (and considering the long-term performance my 8-man tipi has shown) I came away knowing the Saw will be perfect as a backcountry shelter for one man, a stove, firewood pile and all necessary gear for extended hunts. After seeing and owning a number of ultralight stoves, I'll be going with the TiGoat WiFi unit. I've never seen a titanium stove which is so light, rigid and easy to assemble. Plus, it offers an excellent flat surface area for cooking.

A tip to use at your own risk: I drilled 3 vertically-spaced holes at 60 degree angles to each other through the upper section of my aluminum center pole. I then measured and cut 3 arrow shaft sections which insert horizontally through the drilled holes after the tipi is all set. I use those 3 sections of shaft to clip or hang wet items on. Having them near the peak...where heat is concentrated...and adjacent to the flue pipe, really gets the job done. Warning: KNOW that this can be hazardous if done carelessly. Use small diameter shafting (or rod) and make the holes just big enough for easy insertion. Space the holes vertically at least 4" (6" is better) to avoid weakening the pole. BE SURE all items are secured on the shafts so they cannot contact the flue pipe or drop onto a hot stove.

i just introduced a new 8 sided flat tarp that does some pretty impressive things. it will be in production very soon for retail in an unnamed store but there are also 3 new protos that i have yet to cut fabric on due to time....

the folding stoves are rather nifty as well since they set up out of the bag in literally seconds and have 0 loose pieces. everything is one piece so as not to lose anything.

i am a small time company with big time ideas. the only thing holding me back unfortunately is lack of capital. but i have shown that a small, out of pocket company with the right ideas can get the attention of the bigger and better funded outfits. my ideas and products will be taking this gear fixation to the next level or 2 given due time. so watch out big boys... there is a new kid in town.

this is another feature that sets my stuff apart in a very good way;

the stove jack is not easily damaged because i sew in the main jack that never comes in contact with the hot pipe. the snap on insert that is interchangeable for all size pipes, is replaceable without having to sew in a new jack when it rips or is damaged. plus you are able to run several different size stovepipes out of the same tent.

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I currently have the Seek Outside Back Country Shelter 2 with the medium Ti stove. I absolutely love it. I was skeptical about going floorless but with numerous weekend trips I couldn't be happier. Plenty of room for myself and gear/firewood. I probably wouldn't plan for more than 2 people with gear to camp extended times with it. But then again I do not believe that's its intended purpose. I did seam seal this tipi so I am not sure whether it needed it or not but I didnt want to take any chances this fall knowing I was expecting rainfall. The tipi handled a full night of constant rain as well as a snowy weekend here in PA this fall flawlessly. Like I said, I couldn't be happier. I can stand upright (only 5-10) and stretch/change clothes, etc. The stove was easy to set up and kept me toasty in 20 degree weather with snow all around. I was able to use the stove to warm up water for my meals as well so I didnt need to pack my jetboil/accessories. I would definitely recommend this tipi with no reservations.

all is fine and well in snow and rain... i have a plastic hardware store tarp that handles those 2 elements rather well and it cost me 10 bucks at hardware hanks....

it is when the weather takes a crap on you with sustained 60-80 mph winds and blowing ice that a shelter gets a true workout... i have absolutely no issues with one of my dyneema or cordura tents handling that. we can do a side by side test if you want, but it might turn your sil. tent into a flapping bundle of rags... lol.

John at Bear Paw Wilderness Designs has been working with Cuben for some time now.  The problem with Cuben is when you factor in the price per pound it is so expensive that it almost doesn't make sense to use it.  But, if your looking for lightweight, it's gonna be tough to beat Cuben.

Zpacks is another one that has been offering Cuben fiber shelters.  But, once again the price really goes up for that option.

how much do you guys think a 6 lb. cuben tipi say 15 ft. diameter and 8 ft. tall that would be around the same strength as the current nylon ul. tipis.... with 2 doors (h2o proof) and high wear stove jack. in green or black... would be valued/worth in the retail market all things considered?

Hard to say what it would cost. I will have to check out what some of the others are asking for tipi's in that size range cost now.
 My thought process on Tipi's is go big or don't bother. I mean if you just want a single or double man type shelter their are lots of designs that are light weight. But when it comes to Tipi's most of the guys I know want something Really big for group or base camp hunts. If I could get anything I wanted I would want a 12-16 man Size tipi out of some medium/heavy Cuben fiber with a Carbon fiber pole.
IF I were going to design a lighter weight shelter for less people (2-4) I would design something out of cuben fiber that was along the same design of the Sawtooth but larger. Heck you could make a Sawtooth that is taller and wider in the tipi section and have two sections off of the tipi in opposite directions 90 deg's from each other and probably still be really light weight.

Aggie, i have a design in process that sounds like it will be right up your alley.... i can show you some drawings of it if you promise not to let the cat out of the bag... message me if you want.

Well Steve it looks like you've done well in asking questions on tipi's. This is a great thread with lots of info and it keeps coming.

I well say this I spent 10 days in SO tipi setting it up almost ever night at a new location. Had 2 very windy nights with hard rain one night. The flapping didn't allow for much sleep. The second night was at the end of our trip. Before we set up we could see the trees all had a permanent lean to them from years of strong winds. It rained of and on and then snowed the last part of the night. The winds where very strong that night with gusts in the upper 50 mile an hour range. When the gusts came it snapped the tipi so hard there was next to no sleeping again. There were many times I thought it would left off. The tipi held up just fine which is a testament to the fabric and workmanship.
I will say this if there is a fabric that doesn't sag when wet and is light weight that's what I would choose the next time. Piece of mind and a good night sleep are hard enough to find.
I'm following this thread with great interest.
Abe

Brian,

I just looked at Hyperlite's site... They want $825 for a 6 1/2 tall by 9 ft square, four paneled tipi with one door (made of Cuben).   It also does not include a pole or stakes....

I would imagine a tipi like you are describing would be two and half times the fabric and more labor for the extra panels.  Plus extra for the two doors and bells and whistles.   Also I read Cuben dulls the heck out of cutting and sewing steel.  So maybe 2K to 2400 for an eight man by those numbers...   Plus more for the pole and stakes?

Thats a big chunk of change for a plastic tipi.    :)

Sounds good, glad to see someone with skills working to raise the bar.  My thoughts on the different company's vary some, I believe Kifaru is focusing more on packs and super ultralight tarps with the same material they have had for quite sometime. Seek outside has their part of the market rolling now with improvements on the tipi field but also hard to go way out on a limb due to material cost..  WL&F is the newcomer and it's trying & making things from all kinds of materials. Can't wait to see what the future holds!

not just the tipis either, but other tent designs as well as a carbon fiber version of the old dana shortbed frame and new pack bags for it...with an updated suspension. plus my wyoming stoves and wyoming boiler are breaking new ground in the heating department. it is worth a look at what i am doing and my stuff evolves constantly. like the grill stove..... i have youtube vids.

My personal experience with tipi-sag has been that it's minimal, only slightly bothersome, and easy to remedy. Almost any woven fabric will have some stretch and movement in the weave, and will relax after being pitched a day or two. Wind, rain and temp fluctuation may make it more noticeable, but never severe for me. My center pole rests on a flat stone. If I notice enough sag to warrant an adjustment, I simply raise and lengthen the center pole via the push-button adjuster, which tightens the pitch and removes any sag. I usually do this only once on a 12 day Alaska hunt with temps from 10F to 70F and everything from bright sun to cold rain and snow. I have never had my tipi sag noticeably at all when correctly pitched. It goes without saying that a bigger tipi will be more likely to experience some stretch after pitch.

I personally prefer fabrics which have some stretch and give in their weave. This reduces stress on seams and pressure points (cones, stake loops, etc) adding to the overall life of a tipi. I've seen the videos where correctly-pitched tipis withstood near-hurricane winds, while floored tents were damaged by wind getting under the tent and lifting it. Tents and tipis need to flex and move some in response to wind gusts, or else damage will occur to fabric or structure. This has always been a basic tenet of mountaineering tents exposed to huge and nonstop winds.

I might be interested in a non-stretch (and ultralight) fabric option, but not until I had seen proof of it's long-term durability in all weather and wind. A doubling in price would need to be accompanied by major benefits immediately, plus over the longer term. I'm not a strong doubter...I'm just one of those guys who let others assume the risk while I watch for feedback.

My experience with sag is the same as Kevin mentioned. Last fall in Alaska found us tucked away in the Kifaru 8 man several days straight, suffering through more than 30" of consecutive rain. Even through this sag was not an issue. I think its important to set the center pole on something solid to prevent it from sinking in the ground.  

My thoughts on tipis, the best option for backcountry living. No floor is awesome you can sleep on a ground clothe and no worry of muddy wet boots, spilled coffee, ect. A wood burning stove is to die for. Standing to put on clothes early in the morning will make you never want to do it any other way. I have had no bad experiences thus far , its never blown away when I thought it might , no rain has come through even through 30". Snow has piled high to make me worry but it will finally slide down. I sound like a salesman! But it all true and 100's of miles in the Alaskan wilds we live very comfortable.

Hi Kevin....  here is what you said ....

I personally prefer fabrics which have some stretch and give in their weave. This reduces stress on seams and pressure points (cones, stake loops, etc) adding to the overall life of a tipi. I've seen the videos where correctly-pitched tipis withstood near-hurricane winds, while floored tents were damaged by wind getting under the tent and lifting it. Tents and tipis need to flex and move some in response to wind gusts, or else damage will occur to fabric or structure. This has always been a basic tenet of mountaineering tents exposed to huge and nonstop winds.

cordura and yes even dyneema totally eliminate the issues with extreme tensioning. you are not going to damage a cordura tent with over tension. one of the proofs still to come once i get an extra tent to try this out with, is that i will be taking a cordura tent, rig it between 2 trucks, one stuck in the snow or mud, and use it as a tow /pull rope to drag the stuck truck out. this will demonstrate the absolute strength of the cordura tent.

i am also running 550 cord inside my seams on the sil and ripstop tents. over tension will be eliminated by doing this step in the build as well....

Folks I had what I consider one of the best  conversations with Brian this morning. He knows his stuff and is the real deal in  in my estimation. Answered all my questions, provided a lot of great suggestions for a tipi suited /tweaked to my needs. I followed this post and did a bit of research for the last couple of months prior to his talk this morning he convinced me to pull the trigger. My deposit is going out this week. Thanks again Brian, tom massaro

Your killing me Tom!! I guess I need to figure out what i'm looking for and make a call as well. I have a while before I head out in August but, I lie awake at night thinking about tent options..  ;)

Casey I know the feeling believe me that is all I have been doing but that is the fun of it on something like this . What helped me make my decision was the Hands on experience that Brian has in extreme weather conditions in the West. Wyoming and Colorado have some vicious wind storms and he has tested his product for sure. Good luck and I hope it turns out  for you.

Tom, mind telling us what you decided to have built?

Brian, I'm wondering what demensions are on your larger size tipi's like a 10,12, 16 man sizes? Just looking at pics and they appear shorter than some of the other brands. The Dyneema and condura looks like the best materials for durability and still somewhat afordable.

Casey I running with the 8 man cordura with short sides  on the bottom, Has two doors for upper and lower vent zip flexibility , with stove jack, for Brian's stove.Went with sides to increase usable space under conditions of  bomb proof base camp without a lot of weight. Will have inner loops sewn in the upper section to run a clothes dry out line.  Getting stoked as we speak.

Explain the Short sides on the bottom & sides to increase useable space.. Is that the tie outs that sorta pull out the outer edges of the tipi? Does it have a sod skirt of any type?  Sounds like its going to be tuff as nails!

QuoteOriginally posted by Aggieland:
Brian, I'm wondering what demensions are on your larger size tipi's like a 10,12, 16 man sizes? Just looking at pics and they appear shorter than some of the other brands. The Dyneema and condura looks like the best materials for durability and still somewhat afordable.

It was a joy speaking with you Tom... plan on seeing you in June!

the center height can be made custom anywhere from 5 ft. 6 inch up to 9 ft. if desired. i prefer 7 ft. for the best standing room/wind resistance combination. The side walls are sewn to the bottom edge of the tipi. i can sew sidewalls on any existing tipi even from other makers...
sidewalls range from 12 inch up to 36, customer choice. my tents usually have a 15 inch sidewall.

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a little background for you guys,
i started work for my uncle as a pipe welder when i was 23 in oklahoma and work on large road boring jobs for him for a few years and then got my union ironworkers card and worked high rise steel for 4 yrs. in utah and a few other states until 2000 when i decided to drag up and pursue my favorite thing in life, the outdoors, namely archery elk hunting. i bought some gear and started chasing bulls in sept. and my first real year hunting in 2001, put a nice 6x7 on the ground from 5 yds. i was hooked. as i increased in understanding the animals behavior, i began shed antler hunting to help pay the bills and stay in shape. i had a resting heart rate of about 40 bpm and could literally cover 12 miles in mtn. country in 1 day. my spike outs were numerous and so i started understanding what gear i needed and wanted and that it was very expensive to get (if possible) exactly what i thought was ideal.
being dedicated to construction for so many yrs. i thought to understand the ways the gear i had was put together. i had an old singer machine from my mother that i began tinkering with and it slowly evolved into the 7 machine i have running today. from light duty to heavy duty leather and tack machines that push 300 size thread and bigger.
i have a good friend who is a saddle maker and we throw ideas around every day and that is how the new stuff comes to reality. i sit at a dry erase board and brainstorm and meditate on how things can be improved or just redesigned period. i am a one man think tank and i am not happy unless i can see a finished prototype. so, that is why my passion for this is bordering on obsession. i love what i do and i love watching the stuff i create get hammered to the breaking point. it just makes it all the more reliable the next time around when i fix the problems that come up. i am confident in my abilities to make a superior product to anything out there. and i redesign failures until they are nearly failproof if not.

The bad thing is everyone that is serious into packs, tents, etc. Knows that Cuben fiber "at the moment" is the wave of the future for ultralight bombproof gear. The problem is the dang stuff is simply to expensive for most folks. I can't justify buying a lesser material for something I plan to use for years knowing that in 6 months or a year later cuben prices could drop down to much more afordable levels.    That may never happen but it still makes it hard to spend a lot of hard earned money on something that could possibly be phased out in a few years.

Found this on Google Images. Not sure who owns it but if it is made of Cuben, it's pretty sweet!   http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/s554af52163978ba3/img/i605e875a032cc7ab/1330529527/orig/image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthre ad.php?t%3D111852&h=372&w=1023&tbnid=5rmjx3ohBsU4mM:&zoom=1&docid=qnG35ziHVQNxEM&ei=zCrEVKzoOtSsyAT5yILYAg&tbm=isch&ved=0CBwQMygAMAA (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/s554af52163978ba3/img/i605e875a032cc7ab/1330529527/orig/image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t%3D111852&h=372&w=1023&tbnid=5rmjx3ohBsU4mM:&zoom=1&docid=qnG35ziHVQNxEM&ei=zCrEVKzoOtSsyAT5yILYAg&tbm=isch&ved=0CBwQMygAMAA)

Aggieland,

I hear you on your interest in Cuben fabric. I absolutely know I would have felt the same way somewhere in my past. I would have wanted only the latest and greatest...and I was reputed to have talked myself into a few things I didn't need or that didn't pan out as I imagined. That's how people learn about stuff, and not a darned thing wrong with it. Cuben just might be the ultimate fabric everyone heads toward, but we won't know until several years have passed. As it stands now, Cuben doesn't offer enough advantages to offset the current high price for a clear majority of manufacturers and buyers. Some...yes. I plan to purchase a few 'intermediate' items made from Cuben fabric, like compression bags and gear storage. I want to try it out but not invest a large amount on a big tipi. Keep in mind there is plenty of history where new chemicals, compounds, fabrics etc were created, marketed and used...then fizzled. They usually don't fizzle because of the product, but more often due to cost, slow production, low demand and overall lack of market development. I'm guessing the best hope for Cuben will be for a larger company to produce it with greater efficiency...and it might not be made on this continent either when that happens.

I would and do have no worries about Sil-nylon or other worthy and hard-used fabrics going obsolete. These are the backbone of the lightweight-shelter industry. You can be sure that serious-gear companies like KUIU, Stone Glacier, Kifaru, SO, Hilleberg, Montbell, and dozens more have their eyes on the future. I know many guys who have used sil-nylon shelters for years with absolutely no issues or regrets. I think I once heard where carbon foam would revolutionize stickbow limbs and render wood cores obsolete. Even if there was a performance advantage, it didn't happen.

Whatever shelter you end up buying, use it hard and get out there!

Here we are in 2015 and despite some compelling data and testimonials that there are better tipi fabrics and makers there are some who are not open to even consider alternative to the status quo. Yes, they are proven and that is certainly our option!  I personally felt there has to be something better out there then the two options I though for a very long timer were my only tipi options...so I went looking. For those of you open to alternative to the stats quo, there are some very good options out there.

If I am going to invest in something, and I view a tipi as an investment, I am going to go with what I feel is the very best value for the money...even if that means paying double or triple. People do  it all the time in other areas of their buying life...cars, clothes, etc.  I am one that does not like looking back wishing I had gone with what my heart and mind was telling me I should have gotten (based on a lot of research) because I wanted to save some money or went with the flow.  I have done it in the past and regretted it.  If what I feel is the best and what I have concluded is what I really want, if I cannot afford...I now save to get what I really want when I can afford it.  

What I find interesting is people will pay more for a Kifaru over a Seek Outside stating it is worth the extra money for as best I can conclude is a "peace of Mind" factor.  In the case of a base 8 man that is $325  or 38% more for a base Kifaru over SO tipi...and keep in mind the SO has a lot of extras in their base model.  If you could get those extras on an SO on a Kifaru, I think it is fair to say that $325 or 38% would go up even more.  

Now, let me put this on the table. For those willing to pay in the area of 100% more than a Kifaru base 8 man tipi they can basically get what might currently be the ultimate fabric, Cuban, which the data indicates is far superior to Silnylon in strength and weight. So for in the area of 100% more one can get an ultra strong and ultra light tipi. To say the fabric is not proven is a misrepresentation, which I have found this tipi world is fraught with.  

For those that do not want to pay Cuban prices, there is another fabric option I feel based on my research is also superior to Silnylon and that is Dyneema.  It costs and wights a little more than Silnylon but it's qualities are incredible.  If I was not going with Cuban, I would be going Dyneema.

After a seriously lot of reasearch I am having Brian at Wyoming Lost and Found build me an 8 man tipi out of Cuban with everything I want.  I will be taking it to Alaska in September on a Moose and Brown Bear float hunt to put it to the test. I feel very comfortable taking it because Cuban is a proven tipi and tent material  and WL&F is a proven well respected tipi maker.  For those who may say he is not a proven tipi maker, that too would be a misrepresentation.  


The bottom line for those in the tipi market, you need to know there are options in fabrics and makers that offer you a great value.  Reading forums like this is a great foundation for gathering information but don't just take what you read on this forum or what you hear from the makers...check things out yourself, validate what you hear or read as best you can.  

Once you start talking to those that make these tipis you will start putting the pieces together and be able to tell who is trying to blur things and who is straight.  Also, when it comes the the fabrics, there is a lot of info out there from what I would call small businesses that are using them.  There are a lot of great source of information out there that some in this industry I have concluded do not want you to know about!!!

Once you have done your research, then go with what your heart and mind tells you is best for you.

Steve, I sincerely hope you use that new tipi with great success. The main thing I've always advocated is to do the research and make your own conclusions. Different people will reach different conclusions...not necessarily right or wrong ones...and hopefully find the perfect thing for their uses. In the end, a discussion like this is great for passing around ideas and philosophies. Let us know how you like the Cuben fabric...congrats!

Kevin

You have been a big inspiration for me and I am sure countless others.  You are ,in part, why I have stayed at it to make an Alaska bow hunt dream a reality.  I value and respect your experience and knowledge on all things...including tipis!  I mean zero disrespect to you or other who are committed to Kifaru or have differing opinions!  

What I struggle with is this mentality I have come across out there with some that if it is not Kifaru it is not worthy....whether it be different ways of construction, materials or makers.  You are a very respectful man and your support for Kifaru is presented in a respectful manner...which people are well served to know!  However, not all are.  This mentality I speak of is, IMHO, perpetuated by the company in its writing and words and by many who use their stuff. It is one thing to promote what it is that makes a product better then the competitor with facts and another to disparage competition with as best I have been able to uncover as faults information to casue confusion and drive business their way.

We are all better served by a healthy market place with healthy competition, not just one or two players that call the shots.  Competition drives innovations, fair pricing and ultimately better products.  Stifling this process is unhealthy and that is what I sometimes saw and heard as I did my research.  
 
All I am promoting, as I believe you are too, is people do their homework and not be persuaded to just go with the flow or believe everything they are told. And, I agree, in the end we all need to do what is right for us.

Can't wait to see that Cuben Tipi.. Hope Brian will post pics on here as he moves along on the build!!!!!

I learned Brian from Wyoming Lost and Found was removed from TradGang. Not sure why but guess it is due to him promoting his products on this thread and not being a sponsor.  He told me he is submitting to become a sponsor.  Hopefully he will be back soon.

I found this thread one of the more bizzare discussions that I've seen in awhile.  I was going to wade back in at one point when I thought there was still some misconceptions or confusion but backed out when it seemed that Brian took over the thread and Steve suddenly disappeared.
It started out odd that Steve's first post he mentioned Kifaru and SO but acted like he didn't know of any others.  After a few answers suddenly he's talking about wyomingxxx, on the same day.
Then all this philosophical discussion about how to justify the cost, how Kifaru has a cult following, how Patrick bashed SO, and then how the extra $ must be because it gives people peace of mind/factor.
Just all kinds of different angles on the whole thing and I didn't know if it was a rant or confusion on Steve's part or what.  

Then when Brian came in full bore with all kinds of pics and posts I felt something bigger was going on.  How did Brian know about this thread so soon?  Anyway, I stayed out.

But since I was kind of lumped in with the cultists or paranoid, simply because I bought Kifaru, I aquiested and went to Brian's website and studied all the new tipi's.  I happen to be in the market for a 12 or 16 man so I was interested.
I didn't see anything I liked.  The writing is hard to read because of the background color, there is all this talk about extensive testing but there is very little data about tipis weights and sizes.  You have to go to the gallery to see any real pics and then you don't always know what you are seeing, specifically, when You are looking at a tipi (size, material, etc.).
I'd never use a setup where you have all these guy outs that would either take up a huge amount of space or that you would trip on for sure especially at night.
I saw prices on the 10-man, which might fill my needs, but I didn't see any  big difference from other similar tipis.

I would never buy one of his tipis at this point.  I bought the kifaru when the kifaru was the ONLY tipi around at the time, not because I'm a cultist, and so by default I proved it to be something that works for me.  I'll stick with them in the future too.

Steve B
I think it is good and healthy for all to be involved who will constructively and professionally participate.  Glad you are back!

Through this thread, from the moment I posted it, I was on a journey for knowledge about tipis to use in eventually buying one for myself.  I learned a lot and have been able to narrow in on what I want.  

Based on PMs I have gotten and posts on this thread, there are a lot of people who want to know more about tipis and what their options are.

When I went into this, I thought I had only 2 options to buy a tipi from...but in reality there are a lot of tipi makers to choose from out there.  

I have shared what I have learned along the way and frankly some of what I have learned and shared has been disappointing to me.  Some of what I shared may have offended; which I can assure you was not my intent.  Maybe I offended you; for which I offer an apology.

There is no conspiracy!

I am not promoting one maker over another just strongly promoting to all those in the market for a tipi to do their own homework with an open mind and don't just go by what you read and hear from people like me.  I found Wyoming Lost And Found through this processes and after extensively checking them out, they are able to give me the tipi I want.

Personally, I think it is good for people like Brain at WL&F to participate in forums like this and share their knowledge and differentiate themselves from others in the tipi world...as long as it is done constructively and professionally.

Update: Just received an email today indicating my Sawtooth is completed and has shipped. Of course I'll need a 6# hammer to drive the pegs into frozen Ohio turf...sigh. Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting it in here and set up (warmer day) so I can evaluate it and seal the seams.

Hey Steve Chappell: Did you order that Cuben tipi from WLAF?

Anyone else going 'bottomless' this year?    ;)

Kevin, I really hope you post some pics.

Gilbert

Steve B,

I take some of the blame (credit) depending on how you look at it.   I heard of Brian and WLF several years ago throughf a friend.   I was looking to do something custom and was striking out with the big name manufacturers.  WLF is always tinkering and is more of a cottage/custom operation.  Naturally that's where I ended up.  

Somewhere along this thread several participants PM'd me and we discussed at length the pro's and cons of several makers.   I too own a Kifaru, and have for many years.   They make a great product.  However, there are some things about their business model that are unsavory.  I will leave it at that.  And to boot, I am less than 100% satisfied with the product and design.   I know that's akin to insulting Black Widow.... With it comes many voices crying blasphemy.  

Regarding Brian showing up on this thread, I  mentioned to him the opportunity to crack into this market by doing some sound business with some Tradgangers.  I bragged about their loyalty and maturity in discourse.  Right about that time he appeared on the forum.   It was no conspiracy by Steve Chappell,  I can assure you.  

Also, somewhere along the way my baby Llamas got insulted and this thread turned funny.  I applaud Kevin for seeing it as good natured, and replying in kind.  

So.... I'm currently contracted with Brian to do an ultralight Wall tent/hybrid that will be a one of a kind on the market.   I am very excited to see it come to fruition.   I personally think that Tipi's are necessary for Alaska and other exposed landscapes.   However, in the elk woods, a wall tent is soooo nice.  With today's materials, I think I'm on it .   Time will tell.
Jeff

I just returned from a trip to Australia to see my daughter off to a study abroad stint there.  We spent 2 weeks traveling Australia and New Zealand together. My 20 yr old baby is growing up and I have to take every opportunity I can to spend quality time with her.  I am still readjusting to the MI time zone.  New Zealand is one incredably beautiful country and should I ever go through the major adjustment one has to go through to adjust to the significant time zone change, it will be to spend a lot more time in New Zealand and bow hunt there.  

Kevin, yes I did order the 8 man cuban tipi from Brian at WL&F. Sent him a deposit some time ago to order the cuban material and start the build.  I am going with a stright 8 man tipi with a 16 foot diameter.

I plan to use it in September on an AK float hunt for Moose and Brown Bear...but I agree with Montanawidower a wall tent cannot be beat for head room and comfort.  I have a 12X!4 custom built Montana Canvas in realite with a canvas roof and aluminum frame...it is a great set up but there is no backpacking that thing in to elk camp.  When you think of what a fabric like Cuban could do to the weight of a wall tent it is down right exciting.  Can you immagine a 12X14 wall tent coming in around 15 to 20 lbs?

Kevin...congrats on the Sawtooth...that is a neat design!  Based on your past, I know you will enjoy many great hunts with it.

I will keep those interested updated on the cuban tipi build and then how it performs.  I will get pics up too.  Hope to have it to use at Compton Ren in June.

Good to hear Steve. I hope you get lots of hunts and plenty of adventure from your tipi. I'll be watching for a report when you receive it.

My Sawtooth is sitting quietly in my office. Actually, I haven't had a single piece of it out of the bags yet with all the deep snow and -0 weather. I'm waiting on a warm dry day now.

Kevin here in MI we too have been hit with those super cold days (-8 Friday on my way to work) for many weeks in a row now (I missed 2 of those weeks while overseas thankfully). Today it is in the 20s so my wife and I, along with our dog, took a long walk on the frozen river...the 20s makes it feel like Spring is just around the corner.  As excited as I would be to use my new tent/tipi this weather would keep mine in the packing it came in too.  

Brian at WL&F is sending me some Cuban fabric samples including color options. Any suggestions on color?  I am leaning toward Multicam.  Any down side to a camo pattern?

Steve, a down side to the camo pattern or any dark colored material is it doesn't reflect light as well. Personally I like white. A small lantern or even a flashlight will light up the whole tent making it easier to read, find things and to just see in general. I purchased an 8 man Kifaru last year and was quite bummed they don't offer white as a color choice anymore. Only the brown. The liner is white in the Kifaru so that has helped out a lot.

Yep...Matt is right on the money.

I have a white 8-man and decided to keep it forever. The lighter colors are more translucent and amenable to living in, if weather locks you down. My new Sawtooth is brown but Silnylon is still thin enough (and offers good light passage) that it's not bad. As Matt mentioned, the white liner adds a good degree of brightness within, akin to painted walls in your home. I've never been a fan of dull, dark colors in tents. I'll take a bright one every time. Can't say what makes other guys happy, but hopefully you know what's important to you. I also think visibility from the air is a good thing. It discourages other hunters from dropping in if they can easily see a big bright tipi. It also could aid in rescue location in the event of a disaster.

For anyone interested: Snow Peak makes a great little light called the Hozuki. Mine is the mini-sized one. Runs on 3 x AAA and makes a very superb overhead light in a tipi. About $50, but I'd spend it again in a heartbeat.

Matt & Kevin....great advice I did not give thought to...thank you! I am waiting on color samples so we'll see what my options are.  

That a great little lite too.  I found it on sale now for $29.92 at this link

http://www.backcountrygear.com/snow-peak-mini-hozuki-led-lantern.html?gclid=CNPmi4nTjMQCFYNDaQodWQYA7g#.VPXo1D8tGM9

Steve any updates on the Cuban samples?  I have to make a decision on what tent setup we are going with for our hunt.  Very interested in the Cuban but afraid of what it will cost.

Good insight here:


http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?27703-Cuben-shelters-or-what

I'm gonna have to re read some pages of info...I'm sure there's a bunch of it I missed!

Kevin, first thing I saw with that tent picture in the link is no stove.  Which makes keeps it from being a 4 season gig!  

Steve, are you going guided for your brownie?   Or do you have a N.O.K here?

QuoteOriginally posted by AkDan:
I'm gonna have to re read some pages of info...I'm sure there's a bunch of it I missed!

Kevin, first thing I saw with that tent picture in the link is no stove.  Which makes keeps it from being a 4 season gig!  

Steve, are you going guided for your brownie?   Or do you have a N.O.K here?

N.O.K??? Please enlighten me, Dan.

Next of Kin. Non Residents cannot hunt brown/grizzly bear, Dall sheep, or mountain goat without a licensed guide in AK unless you are with a first degree relative who is an AK resident.

And when did we switch from a moose hunt?!?

Thanks, Steve. I knew it must refer to family members, but I couldn't come up with the right term for the acronym.

Thanks Steve.  

yes next of kin, brother sister mother farther daughter son.  

Or are you going guided?

Sorry for my late response...not been online much.  

Aggieland...My Cuban Fiber tipi build is still on.  My samples of Cuban Fiber are in the mail I am told.  Brain has been requesting sampled from various suppliers and has a batch he is comfortable with that he wants me to select from.  I knew this CF build was going to be a long process but I am hoping I have it for the Compton Ren in MI this June....hoping.  I would rather wait longer and get a tipi I am really happy with.

Kevin that thread on Rokslide  was a really good read...thanks for sharing it!  I spend a fair amount of time on that site as there is a lot of good info.

At this point, I am having a stove jack put in the one I am having built. I bought an SO XL TI stove in December and at this stage I plan to use it but will admit there are some others  out there (one Kevin shared) I have an eye on so I may put the SO up for sale to get one of the others.  My SO stove is still brand new.  After reading the rokside thread I am going to consult with Brian on weather the impact on a CF from heat and ashes would be any worse than sil.  One thing I am confident of is Brian will not do anything he does not feel will stand up.  

AkDan...I am going guided with Yote Robertson....I was supposed to hunt the Moose John with him in 2014 but my hunt was cancelled 2 weeks out due to Ernie Holland crashing his plane.  The plan was to do that same hunt in 2015 but sadly the Moose John area Jay Massey made famous is now in the hands of another guide so it is lost to the traditional archery world.  What a tragedy! Ironically, I was told the guide who now has that area was suspected of putting water in he gas tank of Ernie's plane that caused him to crash yeas ago...I am told in an effort to get that area.  

As a side note, I injured my left knee this summer and have had some serious issues so they did an MRI which showed problems.  I went to a specialist then got into Physical Therapy as I did not want to do anything to mess up my trip to see my daughter off to her study abroad in Australia...and our trip to New Zealand too. We did some serious hiking in NZ and it really caused pain in my knee to the point I knew I could not handle the rough terrain in AK. The pain has just gotten worse over time. The soonest I could get back into to see my Specialist after getting back is April 1st so I will know a lot more after the 1st. I fear surgery may be in my future which would put my 2015 AK hunt is in question.  Due to the long wait to get back in, I tried laser light therapy through my peronal DO and I get almost complete relief but unfortunately it lasts for only a day or two.  I wish I knew about this laser therapy a long time ago when I first injured my knee...it is nothing short of amazing.

Hmmmmm.  I didn't know that Ernie had a crash.  Is he OK?  I hunted the Moose John with him about a dozen years ago.  Both my partner and I killed nice bulls. Had also hunted it 10 years before that with Jay Massey.  Excellent hunt.

I had a knee replacement several years ago.  Was hunt ready within three months of the surgery.  If you have to do it, and if you get it done quickly, you could be ready to go by September.  Good luck.

Cuban Fiber sample arrived today.  Brian @ Wyoming Lost & Found sent me several weight options from 1oz up to 2oz in white/opaque. I was not aware there were so many weight options.  I am going to play around with them and see how well they take various kinds of abuse.  He is going to send me color options once he gets them.  

Orion, I was told Ernie was OK but shook up good which I am guessing was the motivation to let the Moose John area go. Keep in mind this was back in August of 2014.  As the Master Guide he was mandated to visit every so many days (I think 10) guides like Yote who were guiding through him.  You are very fortunate to have done that hunt and even more so to have done it with Jay!! I am still sick over not being able to do that hunt!

Today I pulled the plug on my 2015 Alaska bowhunt and communicated I am pulling the plug on the Cuban Fiber tipi build with Wyoming Lost & Found. I will be having knee surgery on 4/13, which I am pretty sure I'd be in good shape to hunt by September, pending no complications.  However, the real issue that has brought both of these to a screeching end is my wife was released from her job last week, along with thousands of others. She had 30 years in with this big corporation.  This is one thing I cannot overcome so adjust I am doing and in our belt tightening the expensive hunt and tipi, I have literally waited for year to see come to reality, became casualties.  Hopefully 2016 is the year I make it to Alaska.

I know several people were looking forward to seeing and hearing how my Cuban Fiber tipi performed. Sorry but I will not be able to see this one through at this point in time.  Maybe in the future. Maybe someone else will take the leap I did and share their results.

Bummer.  Good luck on the surgery.

going back and reading old tipi threads today looking for a new tipi, after checking, it seems Wyoming lost and found is no longer posting on Facebook and they no longer have a website?

He was well known for being a poor businessman, often under delivering on promises that he made.  Many stories out there of folks he had less then satisfactory dealings with.

QuoteOriginally posted by Biathlonman:
He was well known for being a poor businessman, often under delivering on promises that he made.  Many stories out there of folks he had less then satisfactory dealings with.

Thanks, sadly some people have good ideas, even talent, but end up not cutting the mustard,

Wow, Old thread