Bow lengths being equal. In your experience, does a longbow limb do better than a recurve in regard to finger pressure and other release issues?
I am a recurve shooter but I have shot a few people's longbows and I have not really noticed anything. Now I draw 28.5, maybe if you had a long draw length an used one of the shorter bows perhaps so. Maybe if I spent more time with a longbow it would become noticeable?
I got a headache just now even thinking about it...I would sooner devote my thought process to taking care of those issues...I guess one thing that just came to mind is the number of longbow limbs we see on FITA bows...those people have a whole different level when it comes to finger pressure and release issues
DDave
Howard Hill was quoted as saying he shot longbows because his shooting would not hold up shooting the recurves.
That would have been a straight limb longbow.
With the newer longbow,styles,with heavy R/D limbs and hybrid styles the two are closer.
I'm in the 'yes' opinion camp. A recurve limb needs to be really stable in construction to be as forgiving as most longbows out there, but there was a good point made that hybrids have blurred the lines somewhat. Yes bow length is a factor as well, but overall the less bends in a limb and the more torsionally stable it is the easier it will be to shoot well. Can you imagine if Hill bows had pistol grips and no bump how popular they'd be just based on being mild mannered shooters? The FITA comparison doesn't really hold up Dave because no one is offering ILF longbow limbs that have the cast to compete with a recurve limb at 70 meters. Yes there are some fast longbow limbs out there but when you build it as a 68 or 70" platform no one drawing to 28" is gonna get enough oomph out of the limbs to equal a well designed curve limb for that application and on the risers available. You'd have to have a 25" riser with almost vertical pad angles and some pretty hot rod limbs. It would be an interesting experiment. I think Mike at Dryad has fooled with the concept some and I have also messed with high end longbow limbs on a 21" DAS riser cranked all the way down. They were quick but no where near as effective at longer distance as hi-po curve limbs.
All that being said there are some outstanding forgiving recurves out there. I have had excellent experiences shooting Robertson, Schafer, Habu, and now currently Whippenstick...all very forgiving for recurves. That doesn't even include all the great FITA ILF curve limbs I have messed with. Try some Sebastien Flute Elite+ limbs on an ILF or DAS riser. They are the definition of forgiving yet fast. Or some Dryad ACS RC, whoa!
Again, like a previous poster pointed out, the performance gap between hybrids and curves is getting narrow. Noteworthy is that riser geometry is important, I'm pretty opinionated myself that the farther forward the deepest part of the grip on a riser is vs the fades/ first working curve on a limb the less critical of shooter error the bow will be. One example I remember is the A&H ACS vs Dryad Orion ACS. Mike and co. did a great job with their version IMHO because they made it just as quick if not a little quicker than the A&H but easier to shoot due to the deflexed riser layout.
HORSEFEATHERS, however, I have shot a number of 58" and under recurves that were touchy for me, while the 58" and under hybrids that I have tried, shot pretty nice for me. The most consecutive hits on quarters tossed across my large target has been with a Super Kodiak, not a longbow.
I tend to think longbows are more forgiving, at least in my experience. However, I can not truthfully say that I have shot many recurves or straight bows side by side in an effort to verify this.
My regular morning shooting buddy, after observing me shoot for a few weeks with my 64" Dakota Pro Hunter recurve, followed by a few weeks with my 66" Toelke Lynx longbow, made the comment that I am more accurate with the Dakota if I do everything right, but my errors aren't as great with my Lynx when I do something wrong. Pretty perceptive, I thought.
I never noticed a difference. But then, I never noticed that I have release issues.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
HORSEFEATHERS, however, I have shot a number of 58" and under recurves that were touchy for me, while the 58" and under hybrids that I have tried, shot pretty nice for me. The most consecutive hits on quarters tossed across my large target has been with a Super Kodiak, not a longbow.
FOFLMAO!!!!! My feelings exactly Paven... Where do you come up with all this stuff 9? Generalizations, bogus speculations, and opinions.... Good grief brutha... you need to build a few bows and find out the truth of the matter.... :saywhat: :rolleyes:
No
I have had recurves that were very good on release, even for me, like Black Widows. I won't say which ones were not, because they were probably only touchy for me. For some reason the BWs, Bear takedowns and Super Kodiaks are good for me, I just prefer the fast handling of longbows. As far as performance goes, at close hunting ranges those things that help me shoot better are always more important than speed. I wonder if release forgiveness has more to do with string angle than final limb shape, with the added benefits that a forward gripped riser and a deflexed limb can give.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
HORSEFEATHERS, however, I have shot a number of 58" and under recurves that were touchy for me, while the 58" and under hybrids that I have tried, shot pretty nice for me. The most consecutive hits on quarters tossed across my large target has been with a Super Kodiak, not a longbow.
FOFLMAO!!!!! My feelings exactly Paven... Where do you come up with all this stuff 9? Generalizations, bogus speculations, and opinions.... Good grief brutha... you need to build a few bows and find out the truth of the matter.... :saywhat: :rolleyes: [/b]
Sounds good, I'll jive with your generalization comment, sure bows are like shoes, biomechanically everyone is different and not all folks enjoy the same footwear. Anyway, I know a few bowyers I can contact when I'm ready for pointers once I invest in some equipment. That being said I'd rather be shooting them than building them. "I just drive the darn things" I'm an intermediate shooter at best but I'm pretty analytical and have an eye and feel for quality. You don't need to be a tournament winner to tell an easy shooting bow from a not so easy shooting bow.
I shoot my Big Jim Buffalo way better than my Bob Lee hunter. Recurve but it may not just be apples and oranges. Longbow or recurve. My bob Lee is a lot faster and the grip is way to fat for my hands and I think there is a bit of stacking as well which I think makes it less forgiving for me. As to where my Buffalo a hybrid mind you is buttery smooth and the grip fits my hand nice so its very comfortable for me to shoot. Making it more forgiving for me.
I am just having fun here, however, I did hit 5 quarters in row at ten yards that were tossed across my four by six target, and I also made some good hunting shots on moving game with the Bear. I will not comment on bows that I have no experience with, but the newer bows with deflex do seem to be more forgiving than the straight handled bows that I have that were made in the 50s. I do not rate recurves sensitive by requoting Hill's exploits with his recurve experiments, because recurves of today are a completely different thing than the bow that he wrote about. As far as speed, I have seen a number of modern longbow hybrid bows shoot every bit as quick as some recurves.
One other point about release forgiveness would be, how does a bow react to varied draw lengths? We are all suppose to be perfect shooting machines, but we are not. Our draw lengths can have variations. In one video Byron Ferguson, talks of getting a shorter hunting bow to make up for that inch that is commonly lost in draw lengths on hunting shots. Sometimes I hit the broadhead on my finger when I shoot at deer and sometimes I do not, my draw obviously varies on hunting shots. I read once that a Hill style limb can be more efficient per inch at a shorter draw than the same bow at a longer draw, due to gaining limb hysteresis. To me this leaves open the possibility that the arrow will have less speed variance with a somewhat shortened draw, even if the bow is over all slower.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
HORSEFEATHERS, however, I have shot a number of 58" and under recurves that were touchy for me, while the 58" and under hybrids that I have tried, shot pretty nice for me. The most consecutive hits on quarters tossed across my large target has been with a Super Kodiak, not a longbow.
FOFLMAO!!!!! My feelings exactly Paven... Where do you come up with all this stuff 9? Generalizations, bogus speculations, and opinions.... Good grief brutha... you need to build a few bows and find out the truth of the matter.... :saywhat: :rolleyes: [/b]
Kirkll,
I may be generalizing here (wink wink) but I think it would be safe to say that the majority of users on Tradgang have not built a bow. Therefore, a majority of the users here speak from experience as consumers, meaning that we shoot the bows that were built by talented bowyers like yourself. And because we're mainly only shooters, we won't really have the knowledge that is gained from the building experience. However, that lack of building knowledge doesn't preclude users like nineworlds9 from being able to voice their opinions. I could understand if you were to call out an individual who was speaking on third-party testimony, but nineworlds offered his personal experience of shooting the bows he mentioned.
And I wouldn't discount his opinion because opinions (from personal experiences) are still valuable, even if they might seem misguided from your learned perspective. If we were to take your perspective, the only people who can review cars should be the engineers who designed them. But driving a car is a tactile experience just like shooting a bow is a tactile experience; you don't need specialized knowledge to know if you individually (and personally) like the characteristics of that particular bow/car. I can respect your talent as a bowyer but I just internally grimaced reading your comments. No one likes a bully.
While I do not disagree with anything ole number nine said. I must point out that in my experience with FITA target bows, the arrow rest, the weights and stabilizers can make or break how that bow will shoot for anyone in particular. I always felt them to be a machine with bendy parts. But as with any lighter weight bow, I always had to shoot them with a tab and they were way too slow to get on target for me to ever get them lined up on the deer and turkeys in our neighborhood. One other point, niners did honestly try to enhance the conversation to answer the OP's question, while others that have bow building experience have not yet added any helpful input to the OP's question.
I have pointed out a condition before where a Hill style bow can have lateral problems, just to get mocked about it and that is fine. Kirk does not understand Hill style bows with standard grips, like he does his own bows. The problem and solution to that particular bow's sensitivity was coached by Louis Armbruster, a man that really understood how a Hill style bow should function and the results were obvious.
This is my take right or wrong but it's what I like to stick too,
Recurves, unstrung you place the bow against a flat surface w/ the limb tips touching 1st and see how much the limb tips support the riser above that flat surface. This is a good indication of the amount of pre-load built into the design. The higher the riser sets off that flat surface. The more the pre-load. Strung, grab the limb tip and twist it! If the bow limb tip is easily twisted, then it will be sensitive to string torqueing. Lastly, while strung, If you grab the string nock and you are able to move the string up and down, limbs moving up and down, again another possible release sensitive characteristic.
All, above can be said w/ longbows w/ excluding the limb tip twist check. Of course there are other factors in a design that can some what balance the factors
mentioned above.
Its discussion time ! yippee !
So, my question of the moment. . . Why would a bowyer, a maker of bows, be any more qualified to tell ME about the shooting quality that I experience while shooting a bow, than I am ?
Its like Kinzie (Kinzie reports ? if I recall)telling me what I experience during sex, or one of the (childless) doctors telling me what I should be doing raising my children, or some Woman's magazine telling my wife why she should be pissed (about something different every issue).
Why would anybody, not just bowyers, be more informed about MY experiences than me myself ?
Nearly all of the responses here are based upon personal experiences.
ChuckC
If I could find a bow, longbow or recurve that was as easy to shoot, dead in the hands, as consistent and forgiving of errors as my Titan III riser with BF Extreme limbs I'd be shooting it.
I ask everyone I shoot with if I could shoot their bows and haven't found it yet in either a recurve or longbow.
My initial reaction was the correct one...this whole thing is giving me a headache and I never get headaches...I am just going to go down in the basement and alternate shooting longbows and recurves until the headache goes away
DDave
Best advice I ever got on the subject because I too once worried over these types of pointless things:
"Stop trying to find a bow that will compensate for your errors. Instead, pick a bow you like and and shoot it perfectly"
Basically saying, the error is with you, not the bow. If you perfect your skills you will be able to shoot any bow well. My shooting has improved immensely since I started fixing my flaws instead of finding a bow or set up that would allow for such imperfections.
If I could perfect every aspect of my form, every shot, that would be something alright. Being human and getting myself into some serious bunny jumping fun and trying to still hunt deer in thick stuff will always throw things at me that will a snag into any perfect form that I can muster. It was much easier to make a nearly perfectly formed shot when I shot my target bows at nice big well behaved targets, but those pheasants and bunnies are not so considerate.
"Are longbows more tolerent of release issues?"
I believe this is the original topic... in my opinion the answer is No...
Lets talk about release issues and what causes them instead of speculation on limb design.
I think Pavan nailed it dead on with the string angle at full draw having the biggest effect on release issues.
My opinion of how a bow shoots isn't any better than anyone else's just because i build these things...... But when guys start making bogus statements about limb designs and generalizing "Recurves vs Longbows" its very misleading....
There are some amazing different limb designs out there that have completely revolutionized the over all performance level, string angles, and energy storage capability. These innovations make it possible to make a relatively short bow, such as 60" length or even shorter, with string angles at full draw flatter and easier to get off the string than a 68-70". I'm not talking about just recurve bows either... There are some amazing Hybrid longbows, and even D-shaped long bows being built today that render a lot of the old school ideas on bow design impotent.....
I sincerely apologize if I've offended anyone. I post on this forum to share my experience with others. if i disagree with an opinion, i say so.
if i see bogus info being passed off as fact i'll call horse feathers........ Nothing personal...
Kirk, Pavev and 9,
I do more reading and learning from Pow Wow than posting. So I just want to say thanks. I know there are many Tradgangers like me that appreciate your posting information even if perspectives vary. Here again I learn from some of the best.
I have been ocd about making arrows fly for 60 years. I am not an expert at anything, but curious about everything. My other passions like astronomy and classical music, I am even worse off, ocd wise. If you think the discussions about bows get complicated, get in a room with a bunch of classical guitarists and guitar builders once. As far as bows go, everyone has a way of shooting that fits them best for whatever reasons. I have two ways, one is totally target and the other is totally hunting. I find with certain bows it is necessary to blend them and that would be fine if I could do that under pressure. Any Hill style bow is not a good bow for me when I use that target form, but that Hill style of shooting is what I can most naturally do in fast hunting situations. Trick shots, in my opinion are easier to pull off than most rabbit and pheasant hunting shots because everything is controlled. Our bodies can comply to a certain degree to make a bow suit us ergonomically. I have taught people Hill style shooting that have caught on very quickly and they would say a Hill is stable and forgiving, some for various reasons like reaction times, arm strength and hand eye timing found them to be a struggle, for them I always recommend bows that would fit more naturally to their own tendencies. It is never one size fits all.
Just as McDave said. When all is perfect, I am a better shot with my present recurve than with my present longbow... but I don't throw flyers with my longbow.
When things go wrong with my recurve, they can go really wrong... and they tend to go wrong at the worst times (like when I'm really excited about a big buck).
I'm not sure I'd attribute the difference to limb stability. For me, I think the draw curve and grip are more significant factors in shooting "pretty good" under adverse conditions.
I can't see how release issues would have anything to do with what kind of bow a person is shooting other than something purely psycological.
I would have to disagree. I did a test with a short recurve versus my favorite right hand longbow. I intentionally released only with my ring finger. I have a problem with going heavy on the ring finger when I have to rush a shot. It made some difference with my longbow at 18 yards and the arrow flew okay and I was accurate enough. With the short recurve the arrows flew awful and I hit my garage twice in a row. I also did a test for draw length variance comparisons with my wife's shorter hybrid and compared it to a heavier Hill that shot the same arrows about the same speed. My wife at times draws longer than normal and her bow shoots noticeably quicker when she does, but she has difficulties maintaining that stretched draw. When my wife's bow was drawn to a half inch more than her normal draw the distance it picked up allowed it to shoot further than the longbow drawn to the same draw. When her bow was drawn a half inch under her normal draw, the longbow shot further at that same draw. While this was only a distance test, if I was even sort of accurate, the differing distance comparisons were enough to show that the Hill style longbow varied less with draw length variations.
That is interesting stuff you are talking about Paven. I don't think i ever really gave much thought to comparing different shooting styles with different limb designs until you mentioned aerial shooting or snap shooting......Hmmmm... I can see the physics behind your testing making a lot of sense....
If we compared a working recurve bow shooting against a straight D long bow of the same weight while trick shooting at lower daw lengths, or more importantly, varied anchor points and draw lengths. the long bow is going to be a LOT more consistent.
Also the long bow is going to be more forgiving to canting the bow at any angle vs a recurve with a cut past center shelf that requires vertical alignment..... I'm not certain that plucking the string on either bow is going to make one more forgiving than the other...
The hill style bow showing less variation in cast with different draw lengths makes sense too.... because it's stored energy per inch of draw length isn't transferred as efficiently with lower preload than a hybrid or recurve design with higher preloads. So in essence you could take much heavier arrows at shorter draw lengths or even varied draw lengths and shoot more consistently at short ranges....... Actually if we forget about trajectory completely. It would even be more consistent at longer ranges too......
Interesting..... I don't think i ever looked at it from this perspective.... Makes me want to go play with some moving targets and different style bows now....