There are probably people that love this process, but I'm not one of them.
I just bought a zipper nitro with longbow limbs. It's cut the same as my widow and the same draw weight but, as it turns out, it isn't quite as fast. It is beautiful, a great shooter, and dead silent now that I put some wool puffs on her.
But because it's not as quick, my widow arrows are too stiff so I have to build all new arrows. My widow shoots 5575s cut to 28 inches with 300 total grains up front. I am hoping that I can get away with 30" arrows but if they're still stiff, I can shoot them full length at 32". I just don't enjoy the process. I love the end result, but I wish every bow would just shoot darts.
I have been shooting this bow wonderfully with full length 3555s with only 100 total grains up front. Those arrows are blazing fast but much too light for hunting so here I go again.
There is really not much involved in tuning a new bow. Finding arrows that shoot well from a bow is another story all together.
I am in total agreement with you on this subject!
Bisch
Personally I find it frustrating. I like to take it over to Ron W.'s house, he seems to be good at tuning.
I know, I'm in that mode now. I have arrows it will shoot "OK" but not great - yet. You really never know how good a bow will shoot until you have it tuned with the proper arrows. That light at the end of the tunnel is what keeps me motivated.
Not found of tuning myself...sort of like painting, don't care to do it but know it has to be done.
Yes.
For me, it takes time to tune a new bow. I just take 3 arrow's and bare tune them just get desent flight with feathers. Then journey to get perfect arrow flight start. Couple of weeks and I feel comfort whit bow and what string goes whit it etc etc.. And tuning continue to get perfect arrow.
I enjoy tuning. Some bows seem to be more frustrating than others, but it is like a puzzle to figure out.
Never tune when you are tired or distracted. Never be in a hurry. Think through each change and what you are trying to do, and only change one thing at a time.
Good arrow flight is easier than great arrow flight. I take the time to get it as good as I possibly can.
Broadhead tuning can also be frustrating, but worth the effort.
Up your point weight , put on a thin calf hair side plate , use as little string silentcers as possible to keep the bow quite ( I like cat wiskers trimed down ) , maybe try a skinny string on that bow . Lower brace height a little for more power stroke , take bow quiver off if you use one as it will make a bow shoot a little stiff , Ill bet you can still use the same arrows by doing a few of these sugestions .
Mike
Personally, I like tuning and rarely have a problem. But, understand your frustration. It is a process of elimination. Rather than try to explain it, you might find the following helpful.
http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
Also see: Traditional Bowhunter, Feb/March article by Denny Sturgis Jr. P78-79 He refers to the above, as well.
I never get rid of arrows so I have several hundred in about a dozen or more sizes so it takes maybe 20 min to find the right arrow and fine tune a bow..........work smarder not harder.............
i'm a one bow kinda guy for this reason.
I don't like it, either. However, it sure feels good when you get the bow shooting like it should. One of my problems is that I don't have a smooth release, which causes all kinds of problems that appear to be tuning issues but are really form issues.
Since I hate it myself I fine tune a new bow off season.
My Zipper SXT is considerably faster than my Widow at the same poundage but yes it requires a weaker arrow though.
I think you are maybe over-complicating the process. If the 3555s shoot great full length with 100 gr up front, pick a heavier point and start cutting them back (slowly) to 28". I wouldn't be too surprised if they turn out working well with 175s up front.
Check the Zipper out after you have an arrow tuned for it. I have quite a number of customers that have both widows and Zippers and thie testimonies are the opposite of yours as to the speed.
an arrow that is not right for the bow will lose cause the bow to be a lot less efficient in transmitting its energy.
This is one reason I do not put a ton of faith in chronographing unless I know the qualifications of the person operasting the chronograph and how good they are at setting up a bow and tuning it properly.
God bless, Steve
God bless, Steve
I love the tuning process......grab a bunch of different arrows and the bow , mess around for a few hours......it's half the fun of this pastime.
Bladepeek,
I shoot 300 grains up front for hunting. No exceptions so 175 won't do. I need them to blow a 2" tree shark through anything it goes into.
Sixby, I suppose you could be right but if both bows are the same draw weight and same shelf cut, then the slower bow would show stiffer arrows correct?
The zipper is a longbow and the widow is a recurve. I shoot 600 grain arrows.
I think sometimes we make this tuning stuff harder than it should be. It usually takes me 15 minutes to a half-hour to find the right arrow for a bow.
First I determine how deep the shelf of the bow is relative to center, then the type of string it has, the type of bow it is, longbow, hybrid, recurve, poundage at my draws length, and the weight and length arrow I want to shoot. I've been at this for 50 years so it's fairly easy to then determine the arrow I need based on those factors. Using Stu's calculator will get you to the same place quickly. The calculator just codifies and refines what a lot of folks have been doing by feel for a long time.
One difference between the way I approach tuning and the way many others do is that I start with a given arrow length, which is one inch beyond the riser at my draw length. I cut my arrows to that length and then tune the arrow to the bow with different weight inserts, adaptors and points, building out the side plate and/or playing with the brace height a little. Of course, the desired end arrow length and weight determines the spine and weight of the arrow shaft I select to begin with as well as what i think will be the needed weight up front.
I don' start with a long arrow and cut off small pieces until I get good arrow flight. There's a pretty good range of carbon spines now, and, of course, there's always been a wide spine range in wood and aluminum, so one should be able to pick a shaft deflection to start with that is pretty close to what's needed.
I seldom need to bare shaft, though I do if necessary. Theoretically, one might be able to fine tune even more, but my arrows come out of the bow clean, fly like lazers and hit where I'm aiming, both field points and broad heads. That's good enough for me.
Regardless of how one tunes, good form is absolutely essential. Without good, consistent form, tuning just doesn't work. We get too many wrong signals that we cause ourselves, and it can become very frustrating.
All I can say is keep at it. You'll figure it out.
I don't know where this thread took a wrong turn. I have no issue with my ability to tune a bow. I just don't like doing it.
I will not shoot some silly little weights like some arrows I see people shooting. I shoot 300 grains up front and that won't change. Therefor, I need to make a carbon arrow that will fit my bow and be between 28 and 32". All there is to it.
I just don't enjoy ordering arrows, cutting them, playing with weights, etc, etc, etc
Also, let me clarify, this zipper is an unreal bow. It's less than half the weight of my widow and almost as fast. It is silent, has zero stack, and shoots directly where my eye goes. When I get the right arrows made up for it, it might be my best shooter. We shall see!
From what I understand about tuning a new bow getting the right brace height and nock point position is about it. I think most of the trouble is finding the right arrow for that particular bow. Arrows can be a bear to get right but IMO a bow set up is simple.
Get some Carbon Express Maxima Reds, what is your draw length?
It's interesting as I really enjoy that part.
I actually like the tuning process also. That's why I just got me an ILF riser to play around with again! :D
We tend over complicate things....keep it simple...
Why adjust brace height? What symptoms should make me think to increase or decrease brace height?
I don't get a new bow very often so I always figure new bow new arrows.
It more exciting for me than a pain.
Mr.fingers would you explain your new bow new arrows theory to my wife please she doesn't seem to get it.
krex... brace height isnt an exact measurement. It can change on the same bow by changing arrows or string material or head weight. Identicle bows can have a different brace height...Different shooters may have a different brace height with the same bow. Its one of the adjustments you can use when fine tuning for broadheads............
Yes! If I spent a number of hours working in my field that I've spent tuning new bows Id have a down payment!
I dislike it and it even seems that once I'm tuned up nicely I often use to retune...frustrating. I just want to pick up a bow and have it shoot nicely.
I always enjoy getting a new bow, but I want it to be ready to go when I get it. I'm glad when the tuning part is over. Seems with carbon arrows it is a little easier. Josh
QuoteOriginally posted by jt85:
Mr.fingers would you explain your new bow new arrows theory to my wife please she doesn't seem to get it.
new outfit new shoes :goldtooth:
Tuning bows has consistantly provided a welcome fulfilling challenge.
Tuning me remains the frustrating element, as it commands the number one significant factor of variability in the equation.
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
Tuning bows has consistantly provided a welcome fulfilling challenge.
Tuning me remains the frustrating element, as it commands the number one significant factor of variability in the equation.
x2
I do what Orion described because I prefer an arrow of a certain length. The only thing I do is after using Stu's Calc. I paper tune from 8 feet. I check/fix nock locator height and then move on to remove tears, if necessary. I'm after a bullet hole or very slight (1/2") tear.
My final proof besides visual flight is to shoot a couple broadheads and watch flight and point of impact--looking for same as field point.
When I have difficulty it is usually the bow's grip. Some bows are easier for me to grip throughout the shot properly and a couple aren't.
I like tuning a new bow because it means I have another new (mostly new to me) bow to play with which is one of my great joys in life...the more one does it the better they get at it...I have a relatively long draw and shoot relatively heavy draw weight bows...the last two combos I have ended up with resulted in 800 and 900 grain arrows (not at all where I thought I would be going)...I am going to an indoor 3D shoot soon and I am still trying to wrap my head around shooting 800 grain arrows for 3D...the good news is they are 23/64 diameter line cutters
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
Tuning bows has consistantly provided a welcome fulfilling challenge.
Tuning me remains the frustrating element, as it commands the number one significant factor of variability in the equation.
Now that last statement should be made into a poster and hang on everyone's wall where they see it every day...I was shooting some great bows yesterday with some even better arrows and getting inconsistent results...the equipment was not the issue...I continually assess my form by shooting bare shafts
Nope...I like it.
Kinda like figuring out a puzzle.
I seem to never have issues with tuning in bows. My dad has a heck of a time with many expletives that usually ends with a phone-call to me to come over and help.
I don't think its ever taken me longer than 25 minutes to get a new bow bareshafting darts into my fletched groups out to 30 yards.
Tuning is half the fun of getting a new bow.Then after everything comes together I get all warm and fuzzy inside.
Leland
I'm with you etter! I don't have a bunch of different spine arrows and my time is limited, I much rather be in the field then in the yard with a bare shaft... Funny you brought this up as I've been tuning a bow this week. I somehow got some field tips Mixed up and bare shafted my bow to the wrong weight yesterday :knothead: I had my bare flyin like a dart and knock height was perfect. Now I have to start over due to my lack of attention!
I kinda like tuning bows! It gives me the confidence in the field to know what to do if I need to repair my setup. To know what to do without having the internet or charts on hand is important to me as a bowhunter. Having a spare string (already shot in) with silencers and nock point installed eliminates these issues more often than not.
I'm sure most guys that have ventured out on hunts over weeks rather than days have seen how the elements can cause say string stretch. Knowing how to retune is very handy.
Another thing IMO is that Trad guys should be in touch with their equipment. Not to frown on those who detest tuning but I think it's just because of a lack of tuning confidence.
If most stickbow guys 1st and foremost did their part to eliminate contact and clearance issues I think tuning would not be such a daunting task. Trying to tune a bow/arrow with contact issues is more often then not the reason guys hate tuning. IMO the next issue is shooting too stiff of an arrow for their bow. Eliminate contact and start with a weak spine would be my 1st two steps towards not hating the process.
Interesting thread. I'm surprised by the number of folks who don't enjoy it. I personally love it, every bow is a little different and the differences are fascinating going from bow style to style or when varying poundages. I find it an entertaining activity during the off-season, and when trying new brands of arrows or new arrow setups. I have learned a lot about what makes different bow designs tick through tuning, and it has given me an increased appreciation for what some of our gifted bowyers do to make a worthy hunting bow. I will agree, once hunting season comes I like to have my gear set and not worry about it too much. I have saved myself a lot of frustration I think by shooting full length carbon shafts and tuning via insert and point weight. This way all I need to do is guess a spine for a particular bow, choose an insert and then play with several different point weights and adjust brace height and nock height to suit. Its a pretty consistent method that fits my shooting style. I can imagine once you start cutting arrows it gets a little more "invested" so frustration could easily result. I also try shoot the same type of string on all my bows, 12 strand Rhino, so that one factor is constant.
I really enjoy this aspect. I have spent hours tinkering with diff combos and have learned a lot. Seems to get easier each time. As my form has evolved it actually is now meaningful. If they fly where I look bare I'm happy and have found the broadheads on feathered shafts are tuned for me. Lots of great advice from folks on tg.
Great thread. I don't enjoy it myself that's why the last dozen bows I've built are able to shoot the same arrows I aleady have tons of! lol
My favorite part of a new bow is tuning it!
Yeah I hate it like eating. That's a fun part of getting a new bow.
I get bows that shoot my arrows. :biglaugh:
By a wise old indian......'any bow good bow, good arrow heap much work'
Dennis Kamstra and Jason Wesbrock have two great articles in the Feb/March 2015 TBM that just came out on tuning and shooting. A good reminder to what it's all about. Also, Denny Sturgis has a paper tune tutorial in there that's straight forward.
IMO, you are shooting two different animals in bow design. You are going from a deflex riser w/ modest limb pre-load, and a 9'' brace w/ the widow. Just a rock solid design.
The Zipper is a hotrod,
Very little deflex in comparison, brace 7'' or under, and a ton of pre-load in those limbs.
You went from one spectrum of bow design to another. Be patient w/ that Zipper and get to know it w/ your shooting form and then fine tune.
Good luck
I love the journey tuning can be a learning experience for me. I've spent a lot of time trying to learn a lost art called arrowsmithing. For me that's the best part.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong but when tuning a bow and carbon arrows, Stu's calculator is off by 40 pounds or something. For example 55#@29.5" cut-past-center recurve with 8 strand string and Heritage 250s (.390 spine) 32.75" lenght and 225gr upfront is showing stiff when bare shaft tuning, but once I flecthed those they were weak. Ended up cutting them to 31". Sometimes I don't get it and try to forget all the numbers and just play around.
Bare shaft tuning and Stu's calculator have been actually the biggest obstackles for me.... Weird
QuoteOriginally posted by coldwinterlake:
I don't know what I'm doing wrong but when tuning a bow and carbon arrows, Stu's calculator is off by 40 pounds or something. For example 55#@29.5" cut-past-center recurve with 8 strand string and Heritage 250s (.390 spine) 32.75" length and 225gr upfront is showing stiff when bare shaft tuning, but once I fletched those they were weak. Ended up cutting them to 31". Sometimes I don't get it and try to forget all the numbers and just play around.
Bare shaft tuning and Stu's calculator have been actually the biggest obstacles for me.... Weird
Don't forget with a cut past center shelf you've got a great means to fine tune your spine flex with strike plate thickness. and using hard or soft material makes a big difference too. I like my arrows to be the same length and often can't get the exact point weight at the length i want. that's where strike adjustments come in handy.
I try to stick with the same general poundage to fit my arrows and ones cut to center.