So Dan Toelke is building me a new Whip. I've picked out some really nice veneers from the Wood Vault and Dan says he has some really crazy cocobolo burl. The bow is going to look good.
It will spend 90% of it's life bein' a stump and foam killin' bow. For that kind of work, I like a light bow ~35lbs. Now the dilemma is I'm going to like this bow a lot, I love Dan's bows. I will want to hunt with it, though I don't do much. Just spring and fall turkey. I like a 45-50lb bow for turkey. Not a big difference but I can feel it after enough shots.
What are you thoughts? Do you have lighter bows for all day stump and target shooting? Should I go light at 35 or stick with a more versatile weight of 45? 40lb would handle a turkey I bet...
For me I would go with a 45#,that is right in the sweet spot if you should ever want to sell it.It is a good around weight for hunting,shooting targets,stump shooting and anything you would want to do.JMO
Even before I read to the end of what you wrote, I was thinking 40. Shoots flatter than 35 for targets, easier to match with arrows, and probably plenty strong enough for turkey.
45 more than adequate for everything and also if you decide to take up large game!
I like a bow with a bit of draw weight, helps with the release so I'd go with 45#. 35# just feels "sloppy" to me.
It sounds like you've about answered your own question, so I would say since Dan can build them to pull within a pound of what you want or better why not just split the difference between 40 and 45 and tell him to make it 42? LOL. Even 40 should be plenty for what you want to do.
A Toelke from 40#+ would be sufficient.
The lower draw wt one selects, the more import the over-all arrow design. With that in mind, you should be golden.
Thanks for the replies. I originally ordered the bow at 40# but I may ask Dan to bump it up a few.
Those of you who do a lot of stump/target shooting, do you do it with a hunting weight bow?
what is your draw length??
All I have is a hunting bow. I hunt, practice, shoot 3D, all of it with my hunting bow.
Bisch
I would stump shoot any day with 45#, but I mix in stump shooting with target shooting and end up shooting 75 or so arrows in a session. I can shoot 75 arrows and keep them in control with a 40# bow, but only about half that number with a 45# bow. Clearly, people vary in strength, and some people would feel comfortable shooting 75 arrows with a 50# or higher bow, while others would need a much lighter weight bow to do that.
If your main focus on targets is going to be stumps and foam you should probably not go much over 40# if at all. You probably shoot a 40# bow better than a higher weight and you don't have to get worn out doing it.
Stumps don't take a lot of penetration to stop them in there tracks. My wife does it all the time with her 28# recurve, likewise on the 3-D course.
This stump was shot with a 40# Leon Stewart if I remember correctly and that same bow shot thru a doe at 13 yds just a few months before.
Get your bow at a weight that you can shoot all day with. When the opportunity presents itself out in the "Turkey Woods" you will have no problem connecting the dots.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr330/livrht/DSCF6041.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/livrht/media/DSCF6041.jpg.html)
Good Shooting,
Craig
QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
what is your draw length??
28"
I used to only have one bow and it was 40#. I just recently picked up another bow that is 47#. I plan to hunt with this bow, but in the mean time I use it for everything, including foam. I'm of the mind that you should test like you fly.(practice with the same equipment that you will use when it matters).
If you shoot a heavier bow more often, you will gain the strength to shoot it for longer periods. Think of it as weight lifting. It might be hard for me to curl 30lbs 5 times right now, but if I do it every day, I'll be able to curl it 20 times in a few months.
I would never own a bow I didn't want to hunt with
QuoteOriginally posted by JRY309:
For me I would go with a 45#,that is right in the sweet spot if you should ever want to sell it.It is a good around weight for hunting,shooting targets,stump shooting and anything you would want to do.JMO
Ditto that. As I'm the same as you. I have an array of bows from 40-54. 45 seems to be just right.
QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
I would never own a bow I didn't want to hunt with
I probably thought like that when I was in my twenties also. As you age you realize that there is more to "Archery" than hunting.
Good Shooting,
Craig
I'm afraid I would have to buy the light weight bow and fall totally in love with it. Then I would typically say "a few pounds heavier and this would be better for hunting and then I would acquire a second bow. Then a 3rd; then.....
28" draw... I'd opt for 40# @28" My state allows 30# for turkey, I'll stick with my 45#'er
I have light bows and hunting weight bows. I am moving strictly to ILF platforms simply because they allow me to pick the right limbs for the job. If this were my bow, though, being a bolt down I would get a compromise weight; 40 is plenty for deer, turkey, and similar things and is still light enough to use for a target bow. In fact, I don't think I'm going to hunt with anything heavier than about 42lbs anymore.
That's a really good point about the ILF bows, I had not considered that. If I ever desire to hunt larger game, that may be the route I take.
I expected to hear a lot of "go heavier" but its nice to be reassured that 40# is just about right for what I want to do.
Sounds to me like you like the lighter weight and intend to use it mostly for target work.I would go with the 35 lb.Too many people,underestimate the power of a 35 lb bow,especially from an efficient design.
it will pay dividends if you use one bow for all activities from stumps to 3d to critters. having a 35# holding weight trad bow really sez it's a "target bow" and NOT a hunting bow.
up that weight to 40# @ yer draw length and kill foam as well as turks. if yer comfortable with pulling 35#, there is no reason why not to go up 5 more pounds ... and a little pull pulling each day will make you realize why you didn't order 45# instead. really. it's not that hard. in fact, unless you have a physical handicap, it's not hard at all.
:campfire:
I agree with Rob. The only real difference between 40# and 45# is a couple weeks of shooting.
over the many decades, i've found that there are holding weight thresholds with trad bows. 35# and under makes for an exponentially less efficient set of levers, and arrow weight and spine just get more critical ... very much so for a hunting trad bow.
there are many good by-products of increasing yer holding weight. most notably more efficient limbs, better release, less concern over arrow mass weight, faster everything, more overall shooting "stability".
unlike the fast food industry, there are little to no meaningful shortcuts in the trad bowhunting world.
I have a 43# Big River 66" LB that I can stump shoot all day with. In the last two years I have killed 4 deer with the same bow. A 66" Whip at say between 40-45 should be a pretty soft bow to shoot and should not be that taxing. I have a Toelke Classic 62" 47 @ 28 and it pulls a lot lighter than it is marked. Only you can judge your limitations but I do not think #40 would be bad in that bow.
Plenty of thump with a 41#@28" HS whip. Mine is 45#@28 and at my 29.75" draw and 520g cedar arrow w/125gblunt and the factory string with 3/4 of the rubber whiskers cut off, 177fps. through the crony. Not to shabby for just under 50# at my draw... A 40#'er at 28 will put you right in around 165 with 10gpp. About a 40yd point on.... Nice.
imho, for a deer/hog trad hunting bow under 50#, the dependencies of bow performance, arrow gpp, broadhead type and sharpness, shooting distances, and of course the bowhunter's shooting/hunting abilities and ethics all come into major play. just stuff to think about ....
40-43# seems like it would would be a good compromise.
45lbs vs. 40lbs. doesn't seem like much, and it seems rather simple to say, "That's a week's worth of practice," but it is not that simple. There is a big difference when it comes to shooting lots of shots, like a full 3D round or an indoor round, although I agree that one can work into five more pounds for hunting, although if we extend that logic then why can't we simply work into 50, then 55, then 60, and so on? It doesn't work that way, and I have heard many people say that they can shoot heavy bows great, but have only seen one person who actually could shoot at a level I consider good with a 60 pound bow. YMMV.
It all depends on what you happen to be hunting; if you want to hunt really big animals, you need to commit to working into something heavier, but for deer and turkeys, 40 pounds on an efficient bow is plenty at the ranges we shoot.
Well,
You guys are certainly entitled to your opinions and you can hash out all the theories and formulas you care to,but the simple fact is,i witnessed a man take numerous deer through numerous years,with a 35 lb bow at 26" draw.He filled his freezer and those of other families for those years and never a lost animal that i ever heard about,so i think we can rule out the whole luck theory.Ill take the facts over theories any day.
Not weighing in on this issue, but in a country as big and varied as this, you can find one example of almost anything. :goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by Traxx:
Well,
You guys are certainly entitled to your opinions and you can hash out all the theories and formulas you care to,but the simple fact is,i witnessed a man take numerous deer through numerous years,with a 35 lb bow at 26" draw.He filled his freezer and those of other families for those years and never a lost animal that i ever heard about,so i think we can rule out the whole luck theory.Ill take the facts over theories any day.
you are quite correct, sir. there truly are exceptions to everything. i know a man who hunts and kills wild boar with a knife.
HOWEVER, not everyone can be a successful trad bow deer hunter with a target weight stickbow and a 26" draw. most could not. hence, as a general and ethical rule, trad bowhunting newbies shouldn't be attempting deer hunting with that kinda tackle.
you are quite correct, sir. there truly are exceptions to everything. i know a man who hunts and kills wild boar with a knife.
The thing is,this is NOT an exception.All one has to do is peruse the topic on several of the sites to see evidence of the very same thing.This man,Mr Poteet is just the one i choose as my example.As for the boar with a knife thing,i know many who did this,while i was living in Hollister Ca area.Once again,not an exception and frankly,i dont see the significance of this to bowhunting.
HOWEVER, not everyone can be a successful trad bow deer hunter with a target weight stickbow and a 26" draw. most could not. hence, as a general and ethical rule, trad bowhunting newbies shouldn't be attempting deer hunting with that kinda tackle.
Im finding it hard to grasp this concept as im reading it to be honest.IMHO,as a general and ethical rule,a trad bowhunting newbies shouldn't be attempting deer hunting with any kind of tackle,until they can be in control of a target weight stickbow,much less of a heavier weight.But again,i dont believe the OP said they are a newbie anyway.I believe,they said they have hunted turkeys before and was curious of others opinions on the decision,to go with a lower weight.You gave yours and i gave mine.
QuoteOriginally posted by Traxx:
you are quite correct, sir. there truly are exceptions to everything. i know a man who hunts and kills wild boar with a knife.
The thing is,this is NOT an exception.All one has to do is peruse the topic on several of the sites to see evidence of the very same thing.This man,Mr Poteet is just the one i choose as my example.As for the boar with a knife thing,i know many who did this,while i was living in Hollister Ca area.Once again,not an exception and frankly,i dont see the significance of this to bowhunting.
HOWEVER, not everyone can be a successful trad bow deer hunter with a target weight stickbow and a 26" draw. most could not. hence, as a general and ethical rule, trad bowhunting newbies shouldn't be attempting deer hunting with that kinda tackle.
Im finding it hard to grasp this concept as im reading it to be honest.IMHO,as a general and ethical rule,a trad bowhunting newbies shouldn't be attempting deer hunting with any kind of tackle,until they can be in control of a target weight stickbow,much less of a heavier weight.But again,i dont believe the OP said they are a newbie anyway.I believe,they said they have hunted turkeys before and was curious of others opinions on the decision,to go with a lower weight.You gave yours and i gave mine.
respectfully, sir, yer thinking in this matter is an exception to the norm.
i, nor trad gang, will ever advocate the blatant use of stick bows that are clearly marginal at best, if not illegal at particular hunt venues, for a specific type of game. yes, there are Qualified Exceptions, but that's not the norm either.
respectfully, sir, yer thinking in this matter is an exception to the norm.
Ill have to respectfully disagree with that as well.My conversations with many long time hunters at large venues,is proof positive.Some of which,are notable and might surprise you,but i will leave them anonymous,until they choose to divulge their opinions on the subject themselves.
advocate the blatant use of stick bows that are clearly marginal at best?
Once again,opinions differ and so do some tests performed.
if not illegal at particular hunt venues, for a specific type of game.
And in others, perfectly within the law,so i guess there are differences in that regard as well.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what "Norm" is and leave it at that.And if it is against Tradgang policy to advocate what is within the law in some states,i guess i will have to try and refrain from breaching that subject in the future,if i want to play on that playground,i guess.
QuoteOriginally posted by JRY309:
For me I would go with a 45#,that is right in the sweet spot if you should ever want to sell it.It is a good around weight for hunting,shooting targets,stump shooting and anything you would want to do.JMO
2X on this comment... Dan builds a smooth drawing bow. You'll build up strength the more you shoot, and be happier with 45# bow i believe.
The original poster didn't say how old he was. The advice to go for the 45# bow and work up to it works to a certain age. After that age, you begin fighting the battle that you know you're going to eventually lose, but you hold off the inevitable for as long as you can. It sort of reminds me of Chesty Puller in Korea, when he said, "We're surrounded. Well, that simplifies things." Before that age, go for the 45# bow and work up to it; after that age, pick the 40# bow and hope to shoot it as long as you can.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
The original poster didn't say how old he was. The advice to go for the 45# bow and work up to it works to a certain age. After that age, you begin fighting the battle that you know you're going to eventually lose, but you hold off the inevitable for as long as you can. It sort of reminds me of Chesty Puller in Korea, when he said, "We're surrounded. Well, that simplifies things." Before that age, go for the 45# bow and work up to it; after that age, pick the 40# bow and hope to shoot it as long as you cam.
that's an important point to bring up, dave - age of the shooter vs. trad bow holding weight.
dunno about his physical condition, but this thread's topic starter is more than of age to handle 45# let alone 40#.
just depends on his answers to all the things i had posted ...
I'll stir a few feathers here by saying I don't understand nor advocate the use of what I consider such a lightweight bow for any kind of hunting. I actually think a turkey requires more bow than a deer. Turkeys don't penetrate well. Squirrels are a small game that can take a good punch.
I know a lot of us are getting older and are forced to drop weight. I'm in that class myself. Next month I'll be 59 and I'm down to 56# now. I also think that using it in order to not lose it comes in here.
Shooting on a regular basis without overdoing it can enable you to maintain that weight longer.
Just my opinion on the matter and I know a lot will disagree and you're welcome to.
QuoteOriginally posted by dnovo:
I'll stir a few feathers here by saying I don't understand nor advocate the use of what I consider such a lightweight bow for any kind of hunting. I actually think a turkey requires more bow than a deer. Turkeys don't penetrate well. Squirrels are a small game that can take a good punch.
I know a lot of us are getting older and are forced to drop weight. I'm in that class myself. Next month I'll be 59 and I'm down to 56# now. I also think that using it in order to not lose it comes in here.
Shooting on a regular basis without overdoing it can enable you to maintain that weight longer.
Just my opinion on the matter and I know a lot will disagree and you're welcome to.
i fully agree. pull and shoot the most weight you can regularly handle. this month i'm 69 and i ain't ever again gonna be able to handle a holding weight that matches my age. them dayze is long gone. 50# does me just fine for the critters i'll hunt.
this shouldn't be a "fast food sport" - set aside the very few minutes a day it'll take to pull and shoot the most weight you can regularly handle. at the least all it takes is pulling string, no arrow, no shooting, no special equipment required. ain't all that hard.
motivation might be the hardest part. :saywhat: :wavey: :campfire:
I appreciate all the advice guys, it's been very helpful.
I completely agree with you Rob about using the same bow for everything. I feel like 40-45# is fine for turkey and I have no plans to hunt anything larger other than maybe hogs. I do have a heavier bow that I shoot regularly, it is just not as enjoyable to shoot nor can I shoot it as long.
I am fairly young at 30 years of age and in good health so perhaps I should put on my big boy britches and get that big bad 45# :D
I have a 42# whip.... It flies through every deer I have shot with it.... But the farthest was about 22yds with a real sharp eclipse 2 blade.... It was supposed to be just a turkey bow... But it just shoots too well!
Definitely 45.
Pulling and shooting and shooting correctly and well are two very different things. I think traditional archery would be well served by more people going down than going up, based on how well most people I have seen can shoot.
First thing everyone says when it comes up trad is "don't overbow yourself" (which is good advice) BUT as soon as someone asks for opinions about bow weight, particularly lighter weights and hunting, the advice is usually along the lines of if you shoot a lighter bow then you need to do something different to increase your effectiveness
To answer your question though, for me #45 is he best all around weight
BUT, if I could shoot a 100# bow all day accurately without fatigue or shoulder pain I would, and so should everyone
Yep, if you can execute good shots with heavy bows, then by all means, shoot them. I haven't seen many who can, though, and a 40lb bow will shoot clean through the things most people want to shoot. Going to a trad 3D shoot is actually scary, when you consider that those people are going to be shooting at live animals. It depressed the hell out of me when I went to my first one, and I include myself in that. It took me a long, long time to realize that I can't shoot anything over 45lbs well for more than about 3 shots, and the scary thing is that most of the other shooters thought I was really good when I was shooting heavy bows.
After a lifetime of shooting, I believe it is not the weight you shoot, it should be comfortable, but the exercise you do when your not shooting. A physical therapist, or good trainer can help with some upper body exercises to help maintain or improving conditioning. For example, it is important to strengthen the shoulder muscles to reduce the chance of rotor cuff injury. Same goes with other muscles. It will make a difference whatever your age, or whatever you shoot.
with longbows, there are at least 3 different basic limb/riser geometries, and a good variety of proven build materials.
without going into self bows and english "d" bows, longbows that are in the afl style (american flat longbow, i.e. howard hill) will *typically* be the most stable and the slowest, and they brace to the classic "d" shape.
on the other end of the spectrum are the aggressive r/d "hybrid" longbows that have great amounts of limb reflex and generous riser deflex. they will brace with some "flip" to the limb tips. they're much closer to the recurve and some are actually on par with a good recurve in terms of overall performance.
so it might come down to aesthetics of style or performance. lighter holding weights of hybrid longbows will definitely offer a performance boost over classic afl longbows. that may be yer better longbow road to travel.
if you haven't perused this article yet, it may be of help to ya ...
www.tradgang.com/docs/trad.html (http://www.tradgang.com/docs/trad.html)
@Rob, as a bowyer I complement how you address that question. Very point on with out three pages of scientific mumbo jumbo. so nice to read this kind of answer for a change. Most everyone did a great job answering this question. So refreshing.
What a cool thread with very well worded responses....
I might add that our sport is a physically demanding one. You will only get back what you put into this sport. The archers dedication to the sport, and consistent exercise and practice are critical to not only becoming a good archer, but building your strength level and maintaining it...
I wonder how many traditional archers out there actually spend time drawing their bows 2 - 3 times a week whether they have the time or the place to do any shooting? Rob mentioned this earlier, and i believe its very important. Maintaining your strength level requires regular exercise.
The archers dedicated enough to regularly shoot their bows year round and maintain their upper body strength are going to shoot heavier draw weights much easier.... To be a responsible hunter
you should always shoot the highest draw weight that you can handle easily and shoot well... That takes dedication, practice, and exercise when you can't shoot.