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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: britt on December 12, 2014, 08:21:00 AM
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What's the advantages/purpose of a reverse or forward handle rise? Thanks
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With a forward riser, torque in the bow hand is virtually eliminated. For some reason that I am not knowledgeable of, they are also incredibly quiet and smooth. My N.M. Whisper amazes me.
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I think they also make it easier to be more accurate, with that said, I don't own any, ........ yet !
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I got my first one in 1996, a Green Mt. longbow, still have it. For some reason they seem to make for a very strong and stable shooting platform. I also have 2 Northern Mist Whispers and a JD Berry Morningstar on order........I like'm!! :thumbsup:
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There is no advantage other than increased brace height and better arm clearance.IMO...
If you place your hand on the grip area of any style riser the same every time, and shoot with an open handed grip with your fingers relaxed, there is never going to be a torque issue.
a forward riser can be torqued just as easy as any other style if you grab it with a death grip.
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The way it was explained to me is, it helps with string angle at longer draws. Grip is forward of the limb plane or something like that. I have a 30" draw and own a heartland custom longbow that is only 60". Buddy of mine couldn't shoot my 68" hill styles with his 34" draw so he ordered a custom 70" forward handle hill style and it works remarkably. I'm sure there are other advantages and disadvantages, but I'm not edjumacated enough to know them......yet.
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Oh, and x2 what Kirk says.
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Some archers may prefer them and some may not.Its a personell thing.Just like some prefer high grips,some medium and some low.Some big grips and some small etc.
I think they may be more beneficial along with more deflexed risers in a shorter hunting bow or brush bow.If I was gonna shoot a short bow I might opt for a forward grip with a riser that has a good amount of deflex.
I like them and have owned alot of them.Many feel they point easily and naturally.I also like many of the straighter less forward style risers as well.
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When shooting a Hill style longbow with fluid Hill style form with the bow healed there is a real diffence. I bought a kid a Kramer Razorback longbow. When setting it up for arrows, I was amazed by its steady accuracy and its forgiving nature. When I got my Berry Morningstar, I was even more impressed. Getting a hold on the bow as John Schulz referred to in his teaching has its advantages for getting off a variety of shots. If the bow can forgive your getting a hold of it, that makes for a more accurate shot, when you are in a hurry.
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Inherently more stable and forgiving. I dare you to shoot a bow of shorter length with a reflexed riser where the deepest part of the grip is inline with or behind the fades and you not notice that you need to be more on your A-game. The only thing that helps with this is increasing bow length. But in a short bow, it will be twitchy without setting the grip forward of the fades. Most bows offered nowadays that aren't a classic style have the deepest part of the grip at least somewhat past the fades, and those that are 'forward' handle have it a a very good bit past.
Forward can also cost a little speed if the limbs aren't a little special/ bowyer has engineered them to compensate.
The best benefit IMHO in a shorter bow is potentially reducing string angle at the tips and in turn stack allowing a longer potential draw length on the bow. That's why you hear of some short bows taking 30+" draws.
My little Bear Super Mag' 48 is a case study in the advantages and trade off I described...without the highly forward handle it would be impossible to draw to 29" like it can and wouldn't be as easy to shoot as it is...for what it is. The design costs it a little speed vs say a KMag or Cheyenne which are longer but with less deflex in the riser etc.
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I call horse feathers on your "Twitchy" discription 9 worlds....
Here are two reflexed grip Flatliner long bows.... the first one broke national high score record in a NFAA worlds event in Redding California in 2013.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Flatliner/SANY0024-1.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Flatliner/SANY0024-1.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Flatliner/SANY0027-1.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Flatliner/SANY0027-1.jpg.html)
This Flatliner long bow with a reflexed grip won the Arizona State championship this year.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Flatliner/IMAG0218.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Flatliner/IMAG0218.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Flatliner/IMAG0226.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Flatliner/IMAG0226.jpg.html)
I agree with timbermoose about a forward riser extending the stacking point and having a flatter string angle at longer draws. Especially shorter bows.
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Agree with Nine, its what makes those sub-60" bows shootable and any bow more forgiving.
Eric
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It is also fun to confuse conventional ASL shooters, thinking that your bow is strung backwards.
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Originally posted by centaur:
It is also fun to confuse conventional ASL shooters, thinking that your bow is strung backwards.
Yep, have had many a comment at 3D shoots. Lean the Morningstar against a tree to go pull arrows and come back to somebody saying "Dude, hate to tell you, but did you know.....?". :archer:
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Kirk,
LOL, look how LONG those Flatliners are...read it again: in my reply I pointed out that additional bow length mitigates any 'twitchy' behavior LOL. The length improves the manners and the reflexed riser adds more power stroke to make a nice shooting high performing 'long' bow and hence the FL has done so well in competition. My compliments directed at forward handle styled bows are primarily directed at those 62" or less.
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and yes Centaur with my morning start I tell everyone I bought a lefty and just change the string grooves and string it backwards, sometimes it makes my eyes cross when I first see it then remember its a morning star..
as for shooting, I always thought you lost an inch or two of draw length meaning slower stroke on the arrow but for whatever its worth I shoot better with my vixen than I do with my morning star BUT the morning star is more fun to shoot so I bring that more,, I know I know I don't understand it either!!!
what I really like about Berrys forward handle Morning Star is the grip is still a dished hill style and it feels so comfortable as a forward grip when at full draw.
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Originally posted by nineworlds9:
Kirk,
LOL, look how LONG those Flatliners are...read it again: in my reply I pointed out that additional bow length mitigates any 'twitchy' behavior LOL. The length improves the manners and the reflexed riser adds more power stroke to make a nice shooting high performing 'long' bow and hence the FL has done so well in competition. My compliments directed at forward handle styled bows are primarily directed at those 62" or less.
Ok nine.... i'll retract my horse feathers.
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Do horsefeathers make bow shoot quieter?
maybe, they can dampen vibration from wobbly limbs of poorly tillered bows.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Do horsefeathers make bow shoot quieter?
maybe, they can dampen vibration from wobbly limbs of poorly tillered bows.
Absolutely Pavan.... How do you think these hill style shooters make such claims about how good their bows shoot.... pure horsefeathers... :biglaugh:
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Of course, us Hill shooters don't claim to know all there is to know, so we don't go out of our way to criticize other people's choices. But horse feathers sure are pretty, if you have enough of them.
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No criticism intended bro... just razzing the broom stick boys some... to each his own.
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Tajue says above: "as for shooting, I always thought you lost an inch or two of draw length meaning slower stroke on the arrow...".
With respect to ASLs, you'll lose about 1.5" of limb travel (since the belly side of the limbs is against your hand with a forward-handle bow, vs. the belly side of the limbs being about 1.5" further forward with a regular-handle bow). However, to get the same draw weight at the same draw length as a regular-handle ASL, the reverse-handle ASL needs to have slightly stiffer/heavier (draw-weight heavier) limbs than the regular-handle ASL. The reason being that the limbs of the reverse-handle ASL have to get up to X pounds of draw weight with about 1.5" less limb travel than the regular-handle ASL (by limb travel, I mean the horizontal distance the tips move when the bow is drawn). A 50#@28" reverse-handle ASL doesn't have the same limbs as a 50#@28" regular-handle ASL (assuming bows of equal length). If you built a reverse-handle ASL and a regular-handle ASL with the exact same limbs, the reverse-handle bow would be around 3.5-4.5 pounds lighter in draw weight at the same draw length as the regular-handle ASL.
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That math on limbs is logical enough, however, I think James juices things up a bit for the reverse, mine shoots right with my r/d bows of equal poundage and shorter lengths for distance with the same arrow. Not a completely scientific comparison, I know, but those are the plain and simple results I get. The ease of accuracy in the field on small game is what really sold me on it. I have found that fried bunny comes before f.p.s., but if the cast is there as well it is so much the better. I wish I had a Vixen to compare to, but I think I am better off sticking to one bow that works for me.
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Build a bow by numbers? Nothing wrong with that, many Bowyers do. Me Im not good enough to do it that way, I have to do it by feel.
Over the years a few guys have come into the shop to make there bow themselves, The 1st thing I would tell them is" don't worry about massing up, theres nothing you can do wrong in here, that I haven't done wrong myself, at least 4 times."
I feel Bowyers like Mr. Hill and Mr. Schulz,and Mr.Anderson went by "feel" also, Numbers didn't mean a lot to them after a lot of years. ..OE
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I never mess up, unless we count the time that I kept, "improving" the all bamboo bow I built until the tips rolled over and died. Or the time that I tried to fix a recurve with a skill saw. Trial and error teaches things that numbers do not. Like yew is wonderful stuff, but its sawdust is deadly. I would love to do another yew, but it would kill me if I tried. I should have bought that first righty along with the lefty. My kid would have loved it. It would have come in a bit under 60 pounds at his draw, just right for him.
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As a bowyer I want it all!!! Feel, Speed, smoothness, Accuracy shock free yada yada.
The only problem I personally have is that I believe the top mount bow is smoother in looks and esthetically speaking nicer looking.
That one thing aside when you get all of the compromises out of the way a belly mount bow can be almost as fast if not as fast asw the fastest top mount bows. However a boyer has to have his stuff together to do that and understand how the bow works. Soooooooooooo I choose the belly mount platform slightly as with the average shooter (not Kirk) the belly or foreward riser if one piece will have a bit more stability and shootability. Kirk may not notice4 it , I do although his front mount bows such as Sasquatch actually have a foreware riser . In fact I have one right under an EagleWing belly mounted limbed bow and the limbs are on the same plane.
Truth is you can build a highly reflexed limbed bow with top mounted limbs that shoots nice if you get the wedge angles right and if you get the limbs to be best in vertical stability at your preferred brace.
When you get that , LIke KIrk said, that top mount or reflexed risered bow will shoot just as well as a belly mounted bow.
Soooo Personally , I prefer neither over the other. More challenge to me in building the belly mount right though.
God bless, Steve
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A forward handle helps to eliminate torque and stack in a shorter bow.
A quote from "The Shrew story"
http://www.shrewbows.com/super_story.htm#shrewstory
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PAVAN "Trial and error teaches things that numbers do not" So true pavan, its like a old longbowman (Like yourself) with a braced bow, He knows to stay in the middle with bow preformce. At that point, all points excel in bow preformce. ..OE
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I have a very fast recurve, I need to use a Cantpinch tab to shoot it. With my stout glove, the slightest error on my part sends the arrow up and to the side a foot or more. Numbers don't mean anything if the bow is too sensitive when I don't make a perfect shot. Now sure if I go back to my old target form, I would have a longer draw and I could pack arrows into tight groups and look impressive on flat ground. However, pheasants, turkeys, rabbits and deer don't care how good I look striking that manly pose. All of that stiff long draw form is useless to me if the game is long gone before I can release an arrow. I need to be much stealthier and I need a bow that can match that stealth and allow me some slack. I am not a perfect shot, my form is not always pure and consistent, neither was Howard Hill's and look at the equipment choices he made. Some think it's wonder he could make meat with that stuff, but he knew what kind of a shot that he wanted to make, he also knew that he was not perfect and needed a little help from his equipment.
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Oh Nooooo! More horse feathers blowing in...LOL
You guys should read Ron Laclairs link... He's got it going on... :thumbsup:
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Sir, you are not worth me degrading myself, Have a nice night. ..James D. Berry
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With know it alls like Kirky blowing crap over everyone, this forum is not worth it. If I want to play with children I can go next door, at least they understand the basics of human decency.
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Oh for crying out loud... You guys gotta lighten up a bit.... You wouldn't appreciate a little humor if it bit you on the arse...
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Look in the mirror, at least you will at least get the arse part right, funny boy.
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Years ago in phone conversation with Ron La Clair, this will jog your memory till it hurts Ron, we were talking about the Robertson and Rocky Miller R/D bows. I predicted that longbows could go the way of hunting recurves. More deflex in the handle and more of a working limb, until they were very short and unlike anything we have ever seen before. Ron said not necessarily, but it was interesting. Now all of these years later and there they are. My wife would not let me order anything over $450 for her like a Shrew and the waiting time was too long at the time, so the Lost Creek would have to do, the going price a couple of years back, but her little bow with the forward riser does have a way of getting bloody every year. Not bad for a 62 year grandmother that only gets out a few times a year and hunts on the ground.
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Tis the Season to be Jolly :biglaugh:
Peace to you all and God bless you all!!!
I don't have to agree with everything that is said to respect and Love , Neither do you. Also let us not be easily offended but do remember that it is very easy to offend.
God bless you all and have a wonderful Christmas, Steve
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The Taliban murdered 17 school children the other day, wounded 36. Last week , they murdered 15 people trying to find land mines for disposal. I know , because its my job to fight them. And people are going to argue over bow design?
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Huh ???? :confused:
Yes, people are arguing over bow design here … because it is a forum about bowhunting which includes talking about pros and cons about bow designs.
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tough crowd.
all these designs have some trade off in one form or another.
Some of these trade-offs can be offset by design to a point....but there is only so much that can be done without sacrificing too much in yet another area.
Facts are facts though.... The farther the tips of a bow are from each other at full draw along with the least forward distance between your draw hand and the tips the greater/flatter the angle of the string at your fingers.
I FEEL this helps.
another fact...
imagine if ya will...you're holding a horseshoe by the toe with the tips facing out from you. Now imagine a string tied to both tips.
Pull on that string as if a bow. If ya pull that string in any direction other than straight back that shoe is gonna flip right around in your hand.
Now...if ya had that shoe in your hand with the tips facing towards you and you pulled the string again slightly off center the shoe will still turn a bit..but not near as much since it won't have the tendency to keep going around.
The horseshoe example takes the reflex vs deflex handle to the extreme...but explains the point.
personally I like a well rounded bow..middle of the road..a bit of a forward handle..60-64"..seems to be a good balance for me.
There are times I'd like a shorter bow...but I like the lazier string angle.
ymmv...of course...lol
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That was a really good example of deflex vs reflex grip location Zradix. And quite true if you were using a rounded grip or your grip didn't fit you right. a good reflex design has a flat spot for your thumb pad to settle into the same every time.
I guess the point i was trying to make is that a reflexed riser can be shot just easily & just as accurate as a deflex shape if the archer does his part by not "Gripping" the riser.
I apologize for offending anyone with my poor attempts at humor. I just have a low tolerance for
bogus statements being made regarding bow design implying that higher performance bows are more difficult to shoot... It simply isn't true.
I have a really tough time with accepting a bow that has noticeable hand shock and a poor cast as a "Great design" just because of its looks and because a famous archer developed it..... Teaching a new archer that he has to grip a bow just right & bend his elbow just right to absorb the hand shock never has settled right with me. This is just my professional opinion on bow design.....Nothing more... no name calling or anything...
But there are many folks that do love these cool looking bows that kick like a mule, & thats fine..... Everyone has their own opinion, and their own taste in bow design.
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Kirk...
No arguments here with what you're sayin Kirk.
A grip that fits your individual hand and placement is a big part of the "Holy Grail" equation for sure.
So much of our perception of a bow is greater (or less than) than the some of it's parts anyway.
With good form, you can hedge a build to make the bow quicker but maybe be a tad more finicky...or something along that line.
What I like to see is guys like Kirk who don't want to settle for a darn thing scheming away....lol
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Years ago in phone conversation with Ron La Clair, this will jog your memory till it hurts Ron, we were talking about the Robertson and Rocky Miller R/D bows. I predicted that longbows could go the way of hunting recurves. More deflex in the handle and more of a working limb, until they were very short and unlike anything we have ever seen before. Ron said not necessarily, but it was interesting. Now all of these years later and there they are
Lawrence, I don't recall the conversation but it probably was around the time when bow designs were starting to change.
The Hill style longbow was what everyone was shooting back in the early 1980's and then Robertson brought back the deflex/reflex design which was popular in the 50's. Dicks bows were still pretty long, I think 66 and 68" lengths. Rockey Miller made a very good D/R bow in about a 64" length. The first flatbow I saw was one that Jay Massey brought to the GLLI the 2nd year he came there. He had stopped off on his way from Alaska and spent a few days at Dick Robertson's. While there he used Dicks bow form and made himself a 64" R/D wide limb flatbow.
I shot the bow at the GLLI and liked it. I ask Dick if he would make one for me. Dick said, " No, why would anyone want a bow like that". Long story short after some finagling Dick said he'd make it. The bow was the first "Buffalo Bow" that Dick made, 64" 78#@ 28". Later Great Northern came out with their version of a flat bow but 64" was the shortest any of them were. Neither Robertson or great Northern bows were forward handled bows.
When the Shrew bow came out with it's forward handle and short 52" length it was advertized as "The worlds shortest longbow"
Not long after that Harry Elburg started making his short longbows with forward handle. The rest as they say is history. :archer:
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Am I wrong......Reverse handle and Forward handle are to my mind 2 totally different things. Or maybe I'm not thinking about what a reverse handle longbow is.
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I've seen them used interchangeably when speaking of hill style.
...to me they are very different terms though...
In my mind...mainly a reverse handle is for Hill bows only...you know the ones that look like they're strung backwards.
Forward handles are for recurves or hybrids...in my mind.
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I tend to agree Zradix........
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Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
Years ago in phone conversation with Ron La Clair, this will jog your memory till it hurts Ron, we were talking about the Robertson and Rocky Miller R/D bows. I predicted that longbows could go the way of hunting recurves. More deflex in the handle and more of a working limb, until they were very short and unlike anything we have ever seen before. Ron said not necessarily, but it was interesting. Now all of these years later and there they are
Lawrence, I don't recall the conversation but it probably was around the time when bow designs were starting to change.
The Hill style longbow was what everyone was shooting back in the early 1980's and then Robertson brought back the deflex/reflex design which was popular in the 50's. Dicks bows were still pretty long, I think 66 and 68" lengths. Rockey Miller made a very good D/R bow in about a 64" length. The first flatbow I saw was one that Jay Massey brought to the GLLI the 2nd year he came there. He had stopped off on his way from Alaska and spent a few days at Dick Robertson's. While there he used Dicks bow form and made himself a 64" R/D wide limb flatbow.
I shot the bow at the GLLI and liked it. I ask Dick if he would make one for me. Dick said, " No, why would anyone want a bow like that". Long story short after some finagling Dick said he'd make it. The bow was the first "Buffalo Bow" that Dick made, 64" 78#@ 28". Later Great Northern came out with their version of a flat bow but 64" was the shortest any of them were. Neither Robertson or great Northern bows were forward handled bows.
When the Shrew bow came out with it's forward handle and short 52" length it was advertized as "The worlds shortest longbow"
Not long after that Harry Elburg started making his short longbows with forward handle. The rest as they say is history. :archer: [/b]
That's about the time I first met Ron and I bought a couple of Dick Robertson Bow's from Ron when he was a stocking dealer for Dick. I also remember buying a used 'Duoflex' built by Tim Meig's for my roommate at that time, he was a lefty and the duoflex was a lefty and was 66" long, but had the heavy reflex/deflex and reverse pistol grip handle with longbow limbs. I was a longer bow fanatic at that time, so even though I was going to camp with Ron and the gang in the mid nineties when those first Shrews and Super Shrews came out (I was shooting a 64" JD Berry Yaweh then), I finally bought my first Super Shrew-a Samurai-back in 1999 and have shot them ever since (along with some vintage Bears of late). I like that I can pick up my Super Shrew and it just points naturally for me. Ron's description about the grip on his website is spot on. I pick up those Shrews and they just 'fit'. I did shoot a reverse handle longbow at camp (Roger Norris had a Northern Mist Whisper) that I thought was a very nice shooting/pointing bow.
I don't know the math or science about them, but I do like the forward handle. They just fit me and they give me confidence. There's probably more importance to the confidence factor of instinctive shooting and the accompanying 'high score' and shootability when you have that confidence; than the physics/math. Just my two cents.
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I don't know the math or science about them, but I do like the forward handle. They just fit me and they give me confidence. There's probably more importance to the confidence factor of instinctive shooting and the accompanying 'high score' and shootability when you have that confidence; than the physics/math. Just my two cents. [/QB]
^^^This^^^
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Zradix, your explanation of reverse riser (as in an ASL bow) and forward riser (as in a recurve or hybrid) are the same as mine.
I started making some reverse riser ASL's last year and really liked the way they shot. I was shooting withy a pretty well known bowyer and we were discussing the bow and I described it as a "forward" riser. He corrected me using the same explanation as you did above. Well, it made sense to me so know I call my ASL a reverse riser.
So ron w, that makes at least 3 of us.
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:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Huh ????
Yes, people are arguing over bow design here … because it is a forum about bowhunting which includes talking about pros and cons about bow designs.
Really?
You should read the comments from the gentlemen above, about Kirk. The point that you missed was this: this a bowhunting forum,where most people go to escape the crap that goes on in the real world. I been a member since 2005, I know what this website is for.
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You know when we are standing around the campfire after a great day and talking people say all kinds of things and no one gets offended. I would love to be able to have an adult conversation like that online. Perhaps we should pretend that we all love the same things and have a lot in common and take a little ribbing without getting into a wrestling match. We could start with taking what is being said without putting negative constructions on it. This is really some light stuff when we put it in comparison with what Duncan and other members of our armed forces are seeing and with what is going on in the world. My suggestion is to keep things in perspective and learn from what is said by all and if we disagree do it respectfully.
God bless you all, Steve
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Well said Steve!!! I couldn't agree more. Thank you for your attempts at keeping the peace. The fellowship and respect that our members usually exhibit is one of the biggest reasons that I frequent and contribute to this site. I'd hate to see that change.
Back to the thread topic, I don't believe that there is any exceptional benefit or draw back to a forward riser hybrid or recurve. It's my belief that these bows can be optimized for best performance and shooting characteristics just as well as a rearward riser. I think this one comes down to design, and personal preference.
I can't really comment much on Hill style longbows, as I have very little experience with them. But the consensus seems to be that a reverse handle is more pleasant to shoot. Having just tested the new Liberty English longbow with VERY mild deflex/reflex (almost straight limbs), and a riser sandwiched in the middle of the lams, I'd have to agree.
Please, let's keep this civil! Happy Holidays everyone.
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Let's just say when James Berry speaks I tend to listen - guy has been building quility bows for a very long time...... well at least I listen when he talks bows anyways :)
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
.....I just have a low tolerance for
bogus statements being made regarding bow design implying that higher performance bows are more difficult to shoot... It simply isn't true......
I agree with Kirk here.
...in my mind, a VERY large part of the equation of a "High performance bow" is that bow being easy to shoot.
Or at least I can say I have no want for a fast shooting bow that is a finicky s.o.g to shoot.
....I'd like all the help I can get...lol
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Forgiving over speed anyday. I`m not good enough to shoot short or fast bows but I can make stuff bleed with a slow forgiving one. forward handle bows seem to help but it is hard to beat a ASL or slight r/d longbow 64" and up for my 27" draw. I can see an advantage in a reverse handle bow and would love a Morning Star. RC
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I have shot my share of longbows and my new Tiapan from James is the best shooting one I have held. Yes it is a reverse handle bow and it shoots like a dream. But then again every bow James has built me is a shooter, this one just seems to be at the top of that pile.
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I can only share the results with equipment I have, I only referred to me and my bows. There were no bogus claims or statements, simply my personal results with my bows. I personally do not know how other people's bows shoot for them, and could not possibly predict their results. I never inferred how all high performance bows shoot, I do need to use tab with my recurve, I do get up and right flyers on occasion when I use a glove. I think Kirk makes it very plain that he does not like Hill style bows, and refers to poor bow designs frequently concerning them. If all he wanted to do is use this thread to promote his product, he could have easily done it without his insults and ridicule of others personal observations and work.
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Well said Pavan.
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the original post referred to forward and reverse, that could be forward as in Black Widow recurves or reverse as in longbows. Two completely different things. I have never seen a company so consistently produce top quality bows as Black Widow. I have checked out dozens of them, remarkably consistent work. Even though I prefer Hill style bows, there is more variance in them. I have seen cases where shooters have a terrible problem with the straight grips. Hill once demonstrated how he could influence the tiller of the bow by pushing and grip and offsetting his draw fingers. However, it is also possible to firmly hold that straight grip without influencing the bow. It is possible to hold a reverse longbow with less pressure and because the bow limbs are not off set by the grip it will not swim or shift as much left and right in the palm. sometimes if a longbow bends too much too close to the fade outs it is also possible that the limbs can cause a longbow to be causing left and right problems, because the length of the limb can be put off line. I have had a bow that had this problem and retillered when I saw that a disproportionate amount of the bend was coming right off the riser. That did wonders for that bow in all aspects. Take downs of various designs use angled limb mounts to stabilize things whether they are forward or offset like a Bear takedown, stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs, which essentially gives them a deflexed attitude. As much as I like shooting my Grooves, it really does not like what I do at times when shooting with a glove. There is something in my release that effects that bow, I had the same thing happen with my target Black Widow. Perhaps that is why all Olympic shooters use tabs that I have seen, some bows must not tolerate the heavy handed things that go on with some shooters with thick shooting gloves.
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sometimes if a longbow bends too much too close to the fade outs it is also possible that the limbs can cause a longbow to be causing left and right problems, because the length of the limb can be put off line.
So you are telling folks here that a bows tiller effects lateral torque? Where may i ask did you come up with this theory?
Take downs of various designs use angled limb mounts to stabilize things whether they are forward or offset like a Bear takedown, stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs, which essentially gives them a deflexed attitude.
Now you are telling us the angled limb mounts stabilize things, and..... stability is built into the mounting angles of the limbs....
Which one comes first, the chicken or the egg?
AND.... "this gives the bow a deflex attitude....."
It's statements like these that would give any bowyer a "Deflex attitude"....
Brutha... i think you better quit while you are ahead.... you're going in hot dumping fuel here...
For future reference, The limb geometry, forward taper rate, and width profile, are all factors in dictating the correct limb pad angle to obtain the best overall vertical & torsional limb stability.
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:deadhorse: :deadhorse:
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Whatever,
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Took me awhile but I did read through every post. Some of those that posted had fact and others had a opinion. I have been a competitive archer for many years. Most of my friends are the same and some are world champions in NFAA,IBO, ect,. Im into IBO competition because foremost I am a hunter. There is no question you put a bow design of any type in a world champs hand he is going to find a way to make it shoot. The real question though is what bow will shoot best for everyone? The forward handle is always going to be much more forgiving. What that means to me is event shooters and hunters alike can shoot it at the best of their personal efficiency. Something to keep in mind. A error of 1/6 of a inch at the riser grows every foot it travels. That make up a large error on the target. Im not going to pick on Kirk because I know him and he is a friend of mine. I do know about the bow he mentioned that was used in a NFAA event but I don't know the details. I personally shoot IBO events throughout the nation. I havnt seen Kirks bows do well there YET! But, it took us a few years to get bows doing well there ourselves. Also get in the right shooter hands. Other bows you seeing do well in IBO trad events are Dryad, Hoyt, Border, Tradteck, in the high-tech bows. Other classes are Legends Bows,Fox, Bob Lee,21st. and Zipper. I may have missed one or two. Each one of these Companies has a style or two that is shining in the IBO events. The one common denominator is a forward forgiving riser. To me the proof is in the pudding. Ask a world champion of any organization and you will here the same thing. Hard to argue that. Happy Holidays from Legends Bows.
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X2 ⬆️⬆️⬆️
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Right on Mike. Widows have had a great amount of success as well.
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Bill, Your right.
I knew I missed one or two but how did I miss Widows. You and others have done well winning IBO events with the Widows in past years. I'm glad to have you shooting one of our bows now. You have a great record of IBO wins.
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wonder what olo' Britt (topic starter) thinks about this thread...lol
Hasn't been back since asking the question..
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Very few answered or tried to give him what he was asking for.......a few did. :dunno: I still say I like'm and can't wait to get my Morningstar.
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Great post Mike. :)
There is no question you put a bow design of any type in a world champs hand he is going to find a way to make it shoot. The real question though is what bow will shoot best for everyone?
I've been a competitive finger shooter for 40 years and I am a hardcore tinker-er (is that a word)when it comes to tuning equipment. Those are my credentials, not much to brag about, but years of shooting just about everything and trying really hard to make them work well. There is no question that sometimes with a little luck and patience you can make anything shoot. You can get lucky and find that magic sweet spot where everything happens to be perfect. But in reality, the forward handles are much easier to tune and be consistent with. Then the straight risers, then everything that is left. I'm not talking about hitting pie plates, but consistently shooting groups of arrows in a 3 inch dot at 50 yards. Most of the other bows you can get them close but they never really wad arrows like the forward handles do for the average shooter. Someone posted this:
Inherently more stable and forgiving. I dare you to shoot a bow of shorter length with a reflexed riser where the deepest part of the grip is inline with or behind the fades and you not notice that you need to be more on your A-game.
Makes perfect sense and right inline with everything I've seen. Couldn't have said it better myself. The brace height is usually slightly less than a deflexed riser, which usually means the arrow is on the string for a slightly longer distance, which means little human errors can occur in that little extra time, which is why he said you need to be on your game to make them work well. We work to eliminate those errors, but that's archery. Which is why an archer with great form can shoot just about anything fairly well. But the forward risers are usually easier for everyone, including the really good form archers. The big bow companies know it to be true to. Usually the top of the line target bows are deflexed. But not all the time because even though the bow companies know they should be for accuracy, they also know the public is hung up on speed so they straighten that darn riser or reverse it to get the speed ratings up to make them more appealing to the speed freaks. Anyway, just my thoughts. I know there are alot of different ideas on the subject. And I know from time to time someone shoots well with a reflexed bow. I hear it all the time, archers talking riser design. Please nobody take anything personal. Just posting some things to think about. Gap
P.S.--Don't use a bow in a hooter shooter as an example of what a bow can do because you have eliminated the human factor with those. We all have flaws and need everything in our favor most of the time. Anyway----------------- :)
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Hey Britt, what kind of a bow are currently shooting?
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Hey'd y'all hear I invited Sid Jr. from Border Archery over here to join the discussion...
Just kidding :biglaugh: :jumper:
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@nineworlds9 That's funny. :biglaugh:
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Originally posted by legends1:
@nineworlds9 That's funny. :biglaugh:
2 X.....
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I am shooting a Heart Land reverse handle longbow and Hill Country Harvest Master forward handle longbow.
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One of each and good ones as well.
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I'm dragging this post out of Christmas 2014 just to say I learned some interesting things about reverse/forward handle bows when reading over this old thread; in spite of a few personal broadsides.
I made a couple of longbows years ago. A straight limb and a mild reflex-deflex. I'm going to try it again this summer and have been reading, pondering and storing every little bit of information I can.
So thank you to bowyers and arrow flingers alike for sharing your experience and wisdom.