Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: doublearrow on December 04, 2014, 12:20:00 AM
-
I'm hoping for some guidance on an issue. I bought my Sage recurve 3 years ago and I've shot it some but mostly just flinging arrows hoping to hit the target. Now I'm committed to hunting with it and I'm at a loss. I haven't shot it in several months, but my issue is every arrow I shoot fletched or unfletched heavy or light point the nock end is pointed to the right.
My arrows are cut to 28" and hang off the shelf approx. 1"
Samick Sage 45@28" and I understand the samick weights are not correct a lot of times.
I bought the Gold Tip traditional tuning pack from 3 rivers. It has 4 different spined arrows all cut to 28".
I've got insert weights and field points and broadheads from 100 grains to 250 grains.
Bareshaft or fletched the issue is still there from 6 yards in. Stepped back to 7 yards most combinations I have tried are back to hitting the target straight on.
At one point I thought the 3555 arrow with 175 grain eskimo head and 10 grains of weight added was the ticket. It seems I shot it the best several months ago when I got tied up and stopped shooting. Now that I've been shooting the last few days I have no idea where that came from. I've tried cock vane out and up no change in arrow hitting.
Does anyone have an idea where I should start? I did the bareshaft tuning along time ago and that's what got me to fletch the 3555 arrow. But it's not right either. I appreciate any help or advice or direction to go.
-
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l263/doublearrow/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_144904_674_zpsb2465d39.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/doublearrow/media/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_144904_674_zpsb2465d39.jpg.html)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l263/doublearrow/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_134340_454_zpsa318ae88.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/doublearrow/media/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_134340_454_zpsa318ae88.jpg.html)
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l263/doublearrow/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_134253_437_zpse2c668e6.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/doublearrow/media/OWNER-D76559D65/My%20Pictures/IMG_20141203_134253_437_zpse2c668e6.jpg.html)
-
I would try the 15/35 arrows; you are, at most, drawing only 27", so less than 45lbs, maybe 40-42lbs. Your arrows are cut really short, which stiffens carbons a lot; they might be too short already. You would have been better off leaving them full length and starting there. A 15/35 is a .600 spine group arrow, I believe, and lots of people shoot that spine out of similar weight bows at similar draw lengths. Tail right tends to mean overspined, although it could be lots of things, mostly form, that is causing it. Try the lighter spined arrow, but it's going to need a pretty good bit of point weight to spine right, if I had to guess.
-
Times two. And maybe you are plucking your string?
-
This will explain what is happening. At this point, don't worry about getting "groups" of arrows as suggested in this article- just realize what is occurring and what nock right is telling you.
http://www.acsbows.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/tuninglongbowsandrecurves.pdf
-
It will without a doubt be the 1535's but you have had them cut and they may already be a little stiff.
A big problem with tuning, if you aren't already in the ball park with your arrow selection, is false readings.
Here are some of the questions I would ask when helping people determine where to start:
Bow type and center cut :
I know that it is a Sage and is either cut 3/16" or 1/8" past center (I don't know for sure).
Draw length and how did you determine this:
you say it is roughly 27"s. Was this figured while someone watched you shoot or a static measurement while you tried to replicate what you normally do? (my experience is that mens draw length is seldom what they think it is..hmmm :) )
Draw weight at your length:
most can only guess at this and I would guess yours to be around 42lbs With what info you gave.
Do you shoot split finger or three under:
This can be very important as if your arrow nock fits the string properly, you will experience major tuning issues with out having a nock of sorts below as well as above the arrow while shooting three under...not so much so with split.
What is your nock height:
Each bow and shooting style will depict your need for proper nock height as this is basically tillering the bow for your style and three under will always have a higher nock requirement and average about 5/8"-3/4" depending....where as split is usually around 1/2" (measured from height of shelf to underside of nock point)
There are many other factors as well but mostly small ones and this is before you get to the nitty gritty of shaft length and point weight...brace is less important as long as you are in range.
If your bow is making lots of noise or you are experiencing undue shelf wear, these are warnings.
Think about this, if you are having to use a set up that is significantly out of the norm: what is really going on here? I know your mother thinks your special, but your bow does not. Chances are you are missing something.
You will now begin to hear stories on how others are making odd things work and you should try them. this can get expensive. If you need new test arrows, we sell them individually...never could understand why one would have to buy three different spines when we know at least one of those is going to be absolutely worthless for anything but tomato stakes.
Good luck,
BigJim... my credentials: owner of traditional archery business helping people with their set up's for seven years (many years personal experience previous). I specialize in carbon arrows and sold nearly 4000 dz last year and likely to exceed 5500 dz this year...no not a typo. We also sell quite a few wood arrows/shafts too. I will also tell you that I don't have all the answers and this is a trial and error thing as there is too much that is not tangible.
-
2X what Big Jim has said, the only thing I would say about shooting into a foam, bale, etc. at any distance is the effect the paradox has on the arrow at the time it enters the target. If you start at 6 ft and take a step back each time you shoot you will see different results. Secondly, try some Johnsons baby powder on the shelve and sight window, blow off the excess and repeat each time. If the arrow hits it will leave a faint line. Thirdly, read this information on paper testing, it may help:
http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
-
Wow, thanks for all the help.
Mr. Jim I will be ordering some extra arrows here shortly. The number one reason I have arrows cut at that length, is I don't have an arrow saw. I had them cut to what my compound arrows where and hoped to tune from there. I will order full length arrows and find a way to safely cut them down as I tune.
My draw length was using the clothes pin method and adding an inch or so. I thought it was correct due to the fact that my draw seemed to be little shorter than what it was on the compound before I sold it.
You mentioned another big flaw I did not realize. I have been shooting 3 under, with only a nock on top. Hence the arrow sitting on my finger when released. I didn't realize this was a no no but I can see why.
And yes I've seen where guys make oddball stuff work. I tend to shy away from doing that. This is my first recurve and I don't want to get into the habit of forcing something to work.
One last thing is I've been using the stock string that came with the bow. I've since ordered a fast flight Flemish string, I'm assuming once this comes in it could have a visible impact on the flight of the arrow.
Hud, lol I thought long and hard before actually posting wondering if it was the material I was shooting into causing the arrow to appear this way, but it sounds like I've got some bigger issues to hit before I goto that point. And I will do some paper tuning.
Again I appreciate the big help and time you all have offered. Ryan
-
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.
Spine calculator. (http://www.3riversarchery.com/spinecalculator.asp)
-
I had bought some used carbons that were about an inch past my draw and showing alittle stiff.so I thought I could tune them by adding more weight upfront.They got worse the more weight I added showing even stiffer.They were bouncing off the rest.I did tune the same spine to that bow but I started full length and they ended up about 2" longer.With carbon arrows I now start with a full length and let my tuning determine their final length.I find that using carbon arrows it is nice to have a way of doing your own cutting and tuning.I made up my own saw with a Harbor Freight mini chop saw.I made up a jig and have less then $30 in my whole saw.
-
Originally posted by Stone Knife:
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.
Spine calculator. (http://www.3riversarchery.com/spinecalculator.asp)
Interesting changing the string and strike plate drastically changes the dynamic spine. What dictates whether or not you use a strike plate? Or are all bows supposed to have one?
-
Originally posted by JRY309:
I had bought some used carbons that were about an inch past my draw and showing alittle stiff.so I thought I could tune them by adding more weight upfront.They got worse the more weight I added showing even stiffer.They were bouncing off the rest.I did tune the same spine to that bow but I started full length and they ended up about 2" longer.With carbon arrows I now start with a full length and let my tuning determine their final length.I find that using carbon arrows it is nice to have a way of doing your own cutting and tuning.I made up my own saw with a Harbor Freight mini chop saw.I made up a jig and have less then $30 in my whole saw.
I"ve learned my lesson I found a thread mentioning the jig with the harbor freight saw, I will do the same
-
Originally posted by doublearrow:
Originally posted by Stone Knife:
Others mileage may vary but the 3Rivers spine calculator has been spot on for me for two different bows with carbon and alum.
Spine calculator. (http://www.3riversarchery.com/spinecalculator.asp)
Interesting changing the string and strike plate drastically changes the dynamic spine. What dictates whether or not you use a strike plate? Or are all bows supposed to have one? [/b]
if you don't use the generic bows you can add the thickness of the strike plate
-
Am i understanding correctly - at 6 yds. arrows are hitting the target nock left, and when you step back they impact straight on? At 6 yds. you are probably still seeing some paradox, especially if you are a little stiff. Those .600's should be pretty close, maybe even the .500's if you hadn't cut them. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about nock orientation. Bareshaft out to at least 20yds. playing with point weight, and when they hit where you are aiming fletch 'em up and you're done.
-
They are hitting nock left at 6 yards. Every arrow and every combination I shoot. When I back up most combinations are ok as far as orientation to how they hit. I didn't pay to much attention as to where I was hitting.
I've shot deer from 6 to 41 yards with a compound and figured I would have or take an average a lot shorter shots on the recurve as in 6 to 15 yards.
-
I would not do any more tuning till you get that string; I didn't notice what you said about the string till now, but a ff string will require a much stiffer arrow than a dacron string.
-
spine calculators and spine charts are great for compounds and great for sales. For all the hundreds of combinations that could change the way an arrow flys, they ask only a few questions. I'm sure they are spot on for some just like a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Unfortunately Harbor Freight has raised their prices a little on the saws.
I have purchased a bunch of those to offer as a convenience to my customers. they will already be set up with abrasive blades and ready to go. You will have to build a jig if you want to speed up the cutting. Should be available next week.\\
thanks, bigjim
bigJim
-
if everything you are shooting is too stiff, keep adding point weight until they fly right....as someone stated above, at very close yardage you might be seeing paradox...too many variables but you really should tune at a further distance.
I don't see any variance- 5 yards to 50 on how my arrows hit, but they're tuned to my bow.
-
Originally posted by BigJim:
spine calculators and spine charts are great for compounds and great for sales. For all the hundreds of combinations that could change the way an arrow flys, they ask only a few questions. I'm sure they are spot on for some just like a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Unfortunately Harbor Freight has raised their prices a little on the saws.
I have purchased a bunch of those to offer as a convenience to my customers. they will already be set up with abrasive blades and ready to go. You will have to build a jig if you want to speed up the cutting. Should be available next week.\\
thanks, bigjim
bigJim
Jim they do work if you put the right info in the blanks, not just a gimmick as I posted the one 3rivers has was spot on for my two applications. I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement that they are just good for compounds, it's another tool that can be used if used right.
-
That's BigJim! Where he sees a need, he oft times fills it!
-
I also question the statement that calculators are only for compounds.
If all the arrows are hitting nock right, that would normally indicate a stiff arrow. If I put the specs in for a 28" 1535, and a Samick Sage that is 45# @ 28", but drawn only 26", then it looks like it would take a 200 gr point to be close. I used a 26" draw in the example because the person who started the post said he used the "clothespin method" and then added an inch. Why add the inch? And most of us do draw a little longer when demonstrating only our draw and not actually shooting, so I poked in 26".
I would bet if we had a really good draw measurement, good center cut information, to include the strike plate thickness and actual draw weight at either the specified 28" or at the actual draw length, Stu's calculator (and I think 3 Rivers calculator was derived from that) would be very, very close.
-
Thanks again for the help everyone. I added the inch on the clothes pin method because every tuning guide i could find that talked about this said to add an inch ao a broadhead would clear any gloves or fingers should they be in the way. Strike plate is .050".
-
Cutting carbon arrows unless they are WEAK is a mistake. I don't want to reduce arrow weight with carbon shafts...they're already light.....there's absolutely no benefit to cutting shafts short with respect to momentum, penetration, efficiency etc.
If you order them cut you are not doing yourself a favor.
-
Doublearrow, I'm sorry I mis-understood. I see you added an inch to the arrow length. I thought you added an inch to your draw length. I still think your arrows are short at 28".
-
Go ahead and use the calculator if it works for you. The calculator is certainly more accurate than a chart that doesn't ask enough questions.
I get many phone calls weekly from people needing help tuning their bows and frequently these people are frustrated with their set up previously suggested from a calculator and just about every time from a chart.
A couple weeks ago, I had a (probably ex) customer tell me how wrong I was because he new how to tune a bow and he went off the 3r arrow chart. He even sent me a text of a picture of the chart with the suggestion circled (the words included with the chart was just for educational purposes).
He went as far as to claim that he contacted 3r, black widow and ArrowDynamics to prove I was wrong. The chart suggested that from his samic sage which is 37lb at his 27" draw he should be shooting a 29" 3555. The shafts I sold him had to be screwed up because they showed weak.
This was a perfect example of the chart being wrong and false tuning info (likely bouncing of the side plate due to being so stiff) but the chart had the customer so convinced that he felt he had to lie to me about contacting the above mentioned (they would never suggest the 3555 being ok for his set up). He felt compelled to suggest I look to God for help.
I seldom ever tell a customer "this is exactly what you need" as they are usually unsure of at least one necessary item in their specs. I will get them in the correct spine category and we can work together from there.
Hey, if it works for you, fire away. As I said, they are great for my business.
BigJim
-
BigJim, I don't think we are that far apart on our recommendations. I put in the information I was able to pick out of the OP and the calculator said 1535s, but longer than 28". I believe you said the same.
I'm not a "blindly follow the instructions" guy, but I have found the calculators, IF GIVEN CORRECT AND COMPLETE information, will come surprisingly close most of the time. The problem comes when people put in estimates based on what they were told or what they think sounds "about right" instead of actual measurement.
What you can do with years of experience, I have to use a calculator for, but both methods do work. They provide a solid starting point. :)