I don't like a short bow. Why are so many nice,nice,top end built bows so short! Serious. Centaur = 62" max. Shrew = 56" max. Thunderchild 58" max. MAN! I've owned all these bows at there max lengths. And they were decent. BUT I KNOW that if they were 64" or 66" They would be that much better. GUYS!! more is more! BUILD LONG LONGBOWS!!!! rat'
Love me some long bows. Amen.
PLEASE!! Don't post about High Tech design vs. draw length info. Don't care. Spent thousands on trad bows,and won't listen to ANY bowyer telling how they have a pinch free,non-critical SHORT design. PLEASE don't post. Olympic shooters shoot long for a reason. I just want a LONG longbow. Am I alone?
Olympic shooters don't have to bend over and shoot behind a tree at a deer trotting past at 5 yards. Send those 56"ers my way. :)
You can have em' all Morning Star. I will cut a branch or 2 and pull/hold smooth all day long. More is more bro'. rat'
A longbow should be a minimum of 68" that's just my opinion. That said, I've been told that 64" delivers the best returns. I don't care...I know how a proper longbow "feels" and if it means I lose a few fps I don't care about that either!
MoOse...My hat is off to you. It/they really do FEEL good the longer they get. I cant be swayed. Been there,done that sort of thing. MoOse knows. Me to. rat'
I'm with ya, it seems Longbow has become an oxymoron to some builders Lol!
I have yet to find a bow under 62" that I really like!
I'm with ya on this one!
Bisch
I hear you, Riverrat. If I were hunting in the bushes at 15 yards or from the back of a horse, I would probably want a short bow too. But where I shoot and hunt, longer is generally better. Within reason. Fortunately, there are plenty of top line bowyers making 64-66" longbows and 62-64" recurves.
Rat, start with a high performance smooth short design, and THEN, its all in the mass weight man...
I totally get where you are coming from. I was a 'long' bow guy for a while, my main hunting bow was 68" and then I started shooting short bows with heavier risers. Its the key.
Don't lament a 62" Centaur. Try one with a Dark Matter riser. Having the extra mass weight in the riser (30% heavier than phenolic) makes it behave like a bow 6" longer IMHO. I agree the standard bows are featherlight and need a steady hand, but man Dark Matter just does the trick, ohh boy..
Same deal on my Elkheart, 56" but with Bow-bolt takedown and phenolic in the riser feels like a bigger bow and is smooth enough to get the job done. I have seen the f/d curves Gregg has plotted.
Try any Toelke bow in a 2pc, with Bow-bolt and phenolic riser, they also shoot superbly at shorter lengths.
Add a forward handle into the mix and its gets even better. Big Jim's Thunderchild for example doesn't have the mass of the other bows I mentioned, but the forward riser with swept back limbs is taken to the extreme so the stability is still there. I remember the first time I shot a TC in a draw weight I liked I was shaking my head how well it did for me with very little practice.
IMHO the Olympic comparison is a non-issue here. Are we taking 90 yard shots on game like Howard Hill anymore?
I gave up on longer bows like the 68" one I had largely because these heavier mass short bows just are SO much more enjoyable to hunt on the ground with in thick woods and swamps where I live.
To each his own. These bowyers out there are making hunting bows not target bows. At the end of the day everyone's biomechanics are different and your mileage may vary,
All I know is after trying a lot of shorties and LONG bows too in the last couple years, IMHO a bow like a 2pc Java Man Elkheart or a Dark Matter Centaur, or even a Big Jim Thunderchild to me are the pinnacle of the hunting stickbow.
The cool thing is there's some bowyer somewhere always working on the next best thing.
I love bows period, like women they come in all shapes and heights (lengths!) LOL ;)
Providing quality shorter bows satisfies the desires of the many.
My own preference is but a whisper among the cries of the many.
We are most gifted to have a host of premium bows to select from that satisfy the desires of all.
Surviving as a bowyer is likely most challenging.
My hope resides with their continued success.
I concur with your sentiments on longer longbows for my personal use. Have had 60", 62", 64" and 66". I prefer no less than 64" in an R/D design like the Toelke Whip HS. My go to D bow is a 66" Toelke Super D. Certainly have nothing against shorter longbows though.
nine9 a lot of your post I agree with. A lot I don't. I hear you on the long game shot vs. Olympic comparison. BUT with a long bow....I have the option within reason, They ARE more stable,and consistant. DUDE.... I've had a lot of bows in my hands to. I know. I've owned a heavy 62" Centaur. Loved it. Needed to be lighter in draw weight,and...LONGER. I currently own a Phenolic risered 66" Whip. I really dig it. Closest bow to a Centaur IMO. MORE IS MORE BABY!!! rat'
:bigsmyl: No worries brother! We all gotta find a shoe that fits. You gotta see some of the nasty bush I hunt in, going from 68" to 56" really helps me! Won't be the last time I own a 'long' bow though. I had a 70" Triple Crown for a while earlier this year and that thing was a shooting MACHINE.
So I get the best of both worlds with the bow in my sig...it's Long and has Micarta in the riser! I hunt with it, in places I shouldn't but it's never cost me a lost shot in the woods.
Hey Scott, your succinct prose begs a haiku. Are you up for it?
Friend...I love your posts. I do. You are a man that has great intellect. Always learn/look at things different after reading what you have posted. Bless you. I admire. rat'
Well if your looking for a long bow dont go to a short bow store.
HHA, Northern Mist, JD Berry, Robertson
I guess we need sub classes to describe our trad longbows??? Maybe borrow some terms from the car industry like heavy duty, light duty, mid-sized, crossover, compact and sub compact to more accurately describe them. :biglaugh:
I tried some short longbows and did not feel the mojo. Great bows but they found a better home. I am about to recieve the best of the best IMO at 58" just because i had to have one. It will be loved but will be the one and only shorty in my collection. I have nothing against them, I just shoot targets more than game and hunt from a tree stand. Looks like I prefer 62-66" being 6'1" with 29"plus draw.
To me the only thing better than a short bow with mass in the riser is a long bow with even more mass/wieght in the riser.
One thing I love about trad archery is how personal the connection between the archer and bow is. It all comes down to personal opinions and to each their own man!
Isn't it great that there is more than one car on the market for consumers to drive?
Shoot what you like! Now if I could find a bowyer that makes a 200 inch bow.... Maybe there is a point of diminishing return??? Maybe then a 68 or 70 inch bow would seem short and sweet?
Whatever....... :deadhorse:
Jack..The killer to me is..I love the shape,look,feel of a lot of bows that are made and they just DON'T BUILD EM' LONG!! I had a 62" Shrew a while back. Kind of rare. If it were a 64-66"...I'd have been buried with it. More is more. So dang smooth,and shootable. rat'
Cyclic-Rivers,I'm a truck guy. So don't care about who makes what in a car. BUT...if I'm spending my money from here on out on one... I KNOW what works. I like the models a lot are building but I prefer a Longer bow than they offer. If you were buying a Corvette,would you get a 6-cylinder? :deadhorse: rat'
Love my two 56" Kanati's! It helps having a 26" draw.
quote:
Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
Isn't it great that there is more than one car on the market for consumers to drive?
Shoot what you like! Now if I could find a bowyer that makes a 200 inch bow.... Maybe there is a point of diminishing return??? Maybe then a 68 or 70 inch bow would seem short and sweet?
Whatever....... :biglaugh:
I tend to agree with you Ryan. Longer does suit me better on LONGbows...and I have a short draw. However, a ThunderChild has been calling my name for quite sometime. I played with one for a few mins at the TN classic and it felt awesome. Probably be my next bow when I get the funds. And I'll get the longest one Jim makes.
How's that Griffin working out for you? That one is, damn near, the perfect longbow (if only it had a Widow grip lol).
Im so glad you posted this. Im so with you. I hunt from treestands (with bars) I have no problems. I shoot IBO and other championships with the same bow because longer is better. 64" or 66" for me. Im shooting our 66" Mayan longbow now. We only build one bow at 60" because you have to. Everything else is 62",64" or 66".
Did I mention at 6' and my 29.5 draw a 58" would resemble a horse bow? LOL :D
Riverboat 2 how much do you want for that short bad shooting 60" Centaur? :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by riverrat 2:
Cyclic-Rivers,I'm a truck guy. So don't care about who makes what in a car. BUT...if I'm spending my money from here on out on one... I KNOW what works. I like the models a lot are building but I prefer a Longer bow than they offer. If you were buying a Corvette,would you get a 6-cylinder? :deadhorse: rat'
If you want to drive a corvette with a 6 cylinder, I wouldn't judge. ;) Drive and shoot what you want. I'll keep the 100 inch bow, you can keep shooting the shorties :p
I have owned plenty in my time from 54" to 68" and my preferred length is 64", and I see no reason to change.
shag..I had a 58" Thunderchild. I liked it. I also had a 62" Black Creek Banshee which to me is a twin. I don't know which bowyer made what first,but both good bows. Big Jims grip was better. But Gainey had 4" of smooth draw on the big man. I liked them both,but always prefer a longer bow for a lot of reasons. I tried to see if Big Jim could stretch a TC into a longer model. But 58" was his max. rat'
T Sunstone..I had that bow personalized with my wifes name on it. So..if you don't mind shooting a bow that says "sugar nookie" on the lower limb..PM me an offer. rat'
Now that's funny :biglaugh:
River rat when your 5'5 and you have a 26 inch draw a 64-66 inch hunting bow is terrible!
rolltidehunter I bet your right. I have a longer draw than that by a few inches. For you a 62" is my 66". For me a 60" is your...Well..I don't know..with a 26" draw you have a pretty good bullpen to choose from. Lucky dog! rat'
In response to those comments concerning my style of recording my thoughts: the comments have been honorably acknowledged and I have enjoyed the humorous and well deserved pokes.
Note: my thought process must be somewhat contorted. since I have written this way since youth.
"Walk a mile in another man's shoes (proverb)": may illuminate the path, yet I continued unceasingly to both bumble and stumble.
Often times, a higher intensity light may be required.
Until I realized that many have no shoes did my constant falters begin to diminish, yet a quickened decent remains but a step ahead.
For the love of the Trad Gang family!!!
Ditto.
Rat:I offer a 68 in String follow. Sold one and it was then promptly compared to the speed of the gentlemans 64 inch bows.
I still build the bow if ordered and it is a wonderful shooting bow. The answer to you question from this bowyer is that selling one bow in two years of offering a model is not profitable. It seems that there is lots of talk about liking long bows but my experience is that it seems to be just that and when push comes to shove most of my longbows are ordered as 64 and 62 inch models.
God bless, Steve
:archer2:
Rat:I offer a 68 in String follow. Sold one and it was then promptly compared to the speed of the gentlemans 64 inch bows.
I still build the bow if ordered and it is a wonderful shooting bow. The answer to you question from this bowyer is that selling one bow in two years of offering a model is not profitable. It seems that there is lots of talk about liking long bows but my experience is that it seems to be just that and when push comes to shove most of my longbows are ordered as 64 and 62 inch models.
God bless, Steve
Rolltide, I thought I was the shortest on tradgang at 5' 6". But I have a whopping 24 3/4" draw. Im right there with you not being able to shoot longer longbows. My 56" thunderchild fits me fine. If shot very much longer I would have to stand on concrete blocks.
I make them long and short
yep 48" - 70"
Rat, I take it you're still liking that Cocobolo and Tamo Ash Griffin since it still resides in your stable of "long" bows. Don't see those 64 inchers very often.
:archer2:
Howard Hill states in his book "Hunting the Hard Way" on page 99 a 28 inch arrow requires a six foot bow. That is 72". When I ordered my Wesley Special I ordered it at 70" as that was the longest that HH Archery offered although my draw length is 28 1/2". My preferred arrow length is 30" which according to Howard Hill would require a 76" bow. Not sure why the move to shorter longbows although I would guess the R/D design has had something to do with it. I defer to the master; string follow and long.
Hey Rat.....just having some morning coffee enjoying your rant!!! :laughing:
rat, you must never have hunted in really thick south carolina or georgia brush, or up a texas tree stand covered in limbs, or in a short wyoming double bull antelope blind. i did 'em all with a 64" longbow and all were, er, very, um - "challenging" :D but for some folks, that just makes for a more interesting hunt. ;)
there's a viable reason for a "short longbow", i'd never knock it. :campfire:
they're all tools, they're all good, they're all very very personal - pick the one that makes ya most happiest and try to kill something for suppers. :archer:
I prefer longer bows as well. Most of my longbows are 68". A couple are 66". The length has never been a problem in the Georgia woods, but you do have to get used to handling the length in thick places. Also, I feel that, over the whole, they draw more smoothly than my recurves, which are all 58" or shorter. I guess its really just a matter of personal choice. Would some of the shorter models perform the same if made a few inches longer? That would make a great study. If some of these bowyers would build some longer bows, they may open a whole new customer base. Either way, long or short, they are all good bows.
Being on the short side of height, I'll argue that a longer bow does not work for me at all. I even make my self bows short. It all depends on your draw length, for me with a 26 inch draw length a longer bow does not really help much. Also there are some awesome short bows that draw extremely smooth, my Big Jim TC is as smooth to draw as my 68inch longbow.
quote:
Originally posted by riverrat 2:
Cyclic-Rivers,I'm a truck guy. So don't care about who makes what in a car. BUT...if I'm spending my money from here on out on one... I KNOW what works. I like the models a lot are building but I prefer a Longer bow than they offer. If you were buying a Corvette,would you get a 6-cylinder? :dunno: I also like longer bows[66"-70"] but have a fantastic 62" Holm Osprey that is on of the best shooters I have had.
My longest longbow is 58", love em short.
I shoot as practice for hunting, and to me a 56" or 58" Reflex deflex longbow is the best hunting weapon. Speed of a recurve, does not get hung in brush like a recurve, quick handling, easy to string and unstring, Its all good !
Hey Rat. Missed seeing you at the last shoot I attended.
I hear what you're saying, but my comment would have to be "You like long bows? Then buy long bows". They are out there.
I think bowyers are building what we are asking for. There's a 62" RER Arroyo in the classifieds right now begging for a buyer. It would certainly not stack or pinch your fingers. I bet Kevin would tell you most of the static tip bows he built were shorter because that's what people want. I have one of his LXRs; a 58" static tip 'curve and a set of 62" longbow limbs for the same riser. I prefer the 58". I bet you if I blindfolded you, you would have trouble telling which set is on the bow.
I also have a 66" longbow that really does stiffen fast at my 28" draw.
Different strokes ......
I am glad you love longer bows and you enjoy them,
For me a too long bow is a nightmare to carry in the woods,where the limbs hit every bush every limbs,make noise and slow down my climb in the mountains,making them dangerous too. How much more flexible I am with a short bow in my hands where a 25 yards shot is my max imposed distance. Maybe in the open range at much longer targets I can see some utility,but like South Cox was used to say: I am deathly at 7 yards.lol
I use to hunt out of a tree with a 70" 80# Zebra longbow. By the time I got through trimming limbs to get clearance to shoot it looked like I was on a telephone pole... :D
Who started this short bow craze anyway? I remember an ad in TB magazine 20 some years ago advertizing "The World's shortest longbow"... :readit:
Short bows are like short, lightweight rifles: great fun to carry through the woods, super cool-looking, and neat as anything, until it comes time to shoot them.
Totally agree with all of Randy's points about reasons for D/R 56-58" longbow. Also the size of the hunter is a factor in bow length, swinging around a 64" bow is a whole different story if your 5'8" vs. 6'3". I am 5'10" and 56" bow feels about right for my tree stand.
I am with you my man 6'3" 30" draw I love a longer bow
I'm 6'1" and I much prefer a short bow 54-56". I have long bows (actually way too many bows ) but I don't think I've ever hunted one over 60". Go figure everyone has different preferences...tippit
PS: Maybe that's why I prefer short hunting knives as apposed to long bowies :)
Just occurred to me, Rat maybe I do see your point. I much prefer Long Fly Rods...11-14 foot Spey rods ;)
Hey there River Rat.... You want LONG i can build you something in 64-66"in length in any design you want.... You want a one piece long bow? No problem... TD long bow, Recurve, static tip recurve, or even an ILF set up like you've never seen before can be configured in longer lengths.
here's a couple LONG bows....on both ends of the spectrum.....Skies the limit bro...
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202014/Rick%20Alexander%20Flatliner%201%20pc/Fulllength.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202014/Rick%20Alexander%20Flatliner%201%20pc/Fulllength.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202014/Rick%20Alexander%20Flatliner%201%20pc/Riserprofile.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202014/Rick%20Alexander%20Flatliner%201%20pc/Riserprofile.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202014/ILF%20stuff/SANY0002.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202014/ILF%20stuff/SANY0002.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202014/ILF%20stuff/Quivermounts.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202014/ILF%20stuff/Quivermounts.jpg.html)
Kirkll..that one at the top is nice bud. I do like that. Christmas is just around the corner...Tim,I'm not ranting..just Saying. :saywhat: Yellow Dog yes sir. I do love a 64" Griffin. To each there own. I've had my experience with short longbows. Just didn't like em'. You ALL have a safe,and happy Thanksgiving. Even if you do shoot a short longbow. :archer: God Bless. rat'
I don't like them short either, but lots of customers do, so I make them. Other than that it has to be 60"+ for me to personally use.
I've got Nine's 68" Slammer now. If I want a bow I can't seem to miss with, I pick it up or my Northern Mist Shelton (also 68").
I rarely take either to the deer stand with me though. Most often I'll have a 60"-62" bow with me. Much more important to me than the length of the bow is it's shootability and performance in MY hands. Just because a bow is 68"+ doesn't make it great. I'm sure most will agree with that statement.
I won't criticize a man's choice in bows, but I will give my opinion if asked. That's the way it should be.
They make them because some guys and gals like them. Doesn't work for you but it obviously does for some. Plus most bowyers have longer options.
QuoteOriginally posted by tippit:
Just occurred to me, Rat maybe I do see your point. I much prefer Long Fly Rods...11-14 foot Spey rods ;)
Just like my spec rods Tip. They don't seem to get off near as much at the boat with a long rod.
I for one am very glad bowyers are fine ally making longbows shorter. My 25.5" draw length and tree stand/ ground blind hunting begs for 58-62" longbows. I'm currently shooting 62" longbows but my next bow will be a 60" longbow.
Now if I could just get some string follow bowyers to make a string follow longbow in the 60-62" range I'd be all over one.
You can keep anything over 50" n-t-n! As far as I'm concerned, anything longer is a waste of materials. My 42" to 48" horsebows deliver all the non-hand-shock, non-string-pinch power and speed I need, and they are so much easier to carry through the palmetto and other dense brush!
dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks. it's all good, one way or another. :campfire:
the debate over what constitutes a "longbow" will go on forever.
whatever its n-t-n length, limb characteristics and braced limb geometry, one clear advantage is no limb slap.
a modern aggressive r/d longbow in the 52" to 56" length range can hang in there with good recurves in terms of overall performance, and typically be quieter on the release ...
... but is it a "longbow"? it's just a name, who really cares? :archer:
i've spent quality time with "short longbows", some custom made. their clear short advantage is so compelling. but i always come back to a 64" to 68" longbow, and just deal with having all that real estate to maneuver in the bush and up a tree. TETO! :dunno: ;) :D
I want to know exactly what is considered a long long bow versus short long bow. Here I thought you were poking fun at my 64" Big River for being short but patting my back at the 68" Big River.
I guess you will really roll your eyes at my 56" G&L Long Bow. :readit:
They are all great bows and perform equally well for me otherwise I would not keep them.
hoot whatever fits your specific set of circumstances. If I could only have one bow, it would probably be 58-60 inches.
S
Rat, I am just happy that you let one of the 66 inchers out of your fine herd. Happy Holidays Brothers!!!! :archer:
Cyclic-Rivers I shoot a 64-66" best. I find there draw cycles are always smoother,the finger pinch/tension is zero,I get a smoother cleaner release with a longer bow,more stability/consistant shot placement,less critical to form/release errors to name a few of my reasons. My complaint is/was that there are ALOT of awesome R/D longbows that hit the 58-62" mark and stop. I've owned them,and sold them because they just didn't have the core traits that the 64-66" bows I've shot/own possess. Bowyers have a lot of fancy charts/data to back there reasons for not going longer. I only know for me....If they were longer...They would have been better. That's honestly what I feel from owning/comparing a BUNCH of longbows. You posted.."Shoot whatever fits your set of circumstances." That really does sum it up perfect. I only wish a lot of the bows I really dig fell into that set of circumstances bud. Take care,shoot straight..rat'
You got me at a low point Ben!! I needed to finish my rat rod and had to have some mula'. If you ever get tired of it......
Some times I need to hide in just two feet of grass and a short bow is the only way to go.
To each their own I guess. I suppose if I had a longer draw, than I too would like a longer bow. Don't seem to have any problems shooting mine now however. My preferred bow lengts are 64" in my Buffalo Longbow, 58" in my ThunderChild and 60" in my Desert Bighorn Recurve.
They seem to work fine with my 32" draw but I guess if my draw was longer I would have to go with a longer bow.
I've never had a problem but I don't dwell on the little things...I guess every time I miss, I just figured it was me and not the bow. I don't suffer from finger pinch either...must be because my smallish hands.
Ever notice that if you drop a couple pounds of draw weight how smooth a bow becomes? Hmmmm, wonder how that happens? You can get the same effect out of increasing bow length.
Sorry, but I just am in a smart arse mood..must be all that turkey and stuffing and boy did I eat a lot of it! :)
BigJim
Yea...Olympic archers don't understand the frustration of having a limb hit a treestand on release ruining a chip shot or scraping foliage and alerting game. Love short bows!
No apology needed. If it works for you fine. More is more in my book. I'm a good shot Jim. Very good. Maybe we can get a round in at the Compton event. I'll show you. I think you build a good looking bow/bows. Just wish that Thunderchild was a 64". Throw stones..I don't mind. rat'
I've also noticed a few inches makes a few more pounds feel better...just sayin.
I can't shoot a longbow accurately if it's shorter than 62". 64"-66" is ideal for me.
I totally get your frustration, rat. I would love to shoot some of the popular shorty longbow designs, built into a 64"-66" bow.It does stand to reason that a short longbow design, offered to be built on a longer platform design, would make the shooting characteristics even better.
it's all relative, one way or t'other.
back in the 40's and 50's, and even 60's, a "short longbow" was at best 66" and most followed the dictum of arrow length to bow length, which meant a bow length of 67" to 72" (or longer!).
how in the world did those bowhunters of the early 20th century ever managed to kill so dang manner deer with such "long longbows"???? doh! :D
isn't it fun living in such a fast food, gotta have it now, shorter/faster is better, info rich era? what ... no? :campfire:
I hear what your saying Rat, that you wish some guys would make longer bows because they fit you better...
I think when you finally find the perfect bow for you, it would be far more sweet because not everyone makes them.
Good luck.
I say shoot what you like
Im with LB Hunter....I wish a bowyer would make a string follow in a 62-64" length ! I'd make it disapear like a pizza at a weight watchers event
Steve
By the way....I have shot with Big Jim and his side kick "preacher" and let me tell you for a fact...DEM BOYS CAN SHOOT !!!
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Tradcat:
Im with LB Hunter....I wish a bowyer would make a string follow in a 62-64" length ! I'd make it disapear like a pizza at a weight watchers event
Steve
you must have a short draw length, because the geometry of a 64" string follow longbow would barely *appropriately* handle drawing to 26" at best.
there's a HUGE diff'rence 'tween an r/d "longbow" and an afl (american flat longbow), which is the least requirement for a string follow stick. they's two very diff'rent animals.
i shoot a 7lakes string follow 68" longbow that tests my 29" draw length, and is better used at 28".
QuoteOriginally posted by BigJim:
To each their own I guess. I suppose if I had a longer draw, than I too would like a longer bow. Don't seem to have any problems shooting mine now however. My preferred bow lengts are 64" in my Buffalo Longbow, 58" in my ThunderChild and 60" in my Desert Bighorn Recurve.
They seem to work fine with my 32" draw but I guess if my draw was longer I would have to go with a longer bow.
I've never had a problem but I don't dwell on the little things...I guess every time I miss, I just figured it was me and not the bow. I don't suffer from finger pinch either...must be because my smallish hands.
Ever notice that if you drop a couple pounds of draw weight how smooth a bow becomes? Hmmmm, wonder how that happens? You can get the same effect out of increasing bow length.
Sorry, but I just am in a smart arse mood..must be all that turkey and stuffing and boy did I eat a lot of it! :)
BigJim
Musta worn a hole in the side of your face with all that tongue in chee :thumbsup: k humor
Rat, I may have mis-read your OP, or some of the replies. I understood you to say you want "longer bows", rather than longer "longbows".
If we are talking "longbows", than I agree with you. 62" is about the minimum I care to shoot and I draw only 28". 66" is the longest I own now, but I'd love to try a 68" or 70".
If we are talking recurves, than I think 60" handles all my requirements, and my current favorite is my 58" RER. The little Shrew I shot recently was absolutely outstanding and I think it was only 54" and a pretty radical D/R design. My little 52" K-Mag is also not up for sale.
I don't own a pickup truck, but I notice they seem to be very popular. Just no accounting for some people's taste :)
An excerpt from my website
QuoteI hunted my first 25 years with a recurve; but soon came to love the quick pointing characteristics of the longbow. The longbows only drawback for hunting in tight cover was it's length. If a short longbow could be made without losing performance or stability, it would be a better hunting weapon, so the quest was on. In the early 1990's after meeting bowyer Gary Holmes from Virginia , he and I discussed the idea for a short longbow. Gary agreed to make it and the first Shrew bows were born. Shrew bows, so named because of their short length, 52- 56" were a bold innovation to the world of traditional archery. People were used to longbows that were much longer and they were programmed to believe that short bows stacked and were unstable. It took awhile but the little Shrew soon knocked that theory into a cocked hat. Gene Wensel after hunting with a Shrew longbow called it the "Ultra-lite Flyrod" of longbows and said it was all that was needed in a good hunting bow.
A turkey with a 52" Shrew bow
(http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small38635046.JPG)
I must be an oddball... I draw 32" and shoot a 62" Toelke Whip. I love it, and having shot his longer Whips, wouldn't trade it for a longer bow. But I shoot 2 under so finger pinch isn't an issue, and all I care about is hunting accuracy, not target shooting.
There is no difference between target shooting and hunting...everything is a target. Either you hit it or you don't.
I have no problem with longer bows if that is your thing, but to just take a certain design and lengthen it waters down the mechanics of that design.
If a bow is designed to be the most efficient at 28"s, it can certainly be shot by people with longer or shorter draws, but it becomes less efficient. This is why bows feel sooo much smoother as they get longer. They are not being drawn or worked to their potential...no problem but then don't ask for the fastest.
If I were to design my Thunderchild (currently 54",56",or 58") to be efficient for the same draw length but make the bow six inches longer (60".62",64" ...i also have other sizes) It would no longer be the same bow, but it would be my Buffalo model.
There are no magical fromulas, it is all physics and geometry. The human factor is what confuses everything.
Shoot what gives you the warm and fuzzy. This will help confidence and is more inportant than every ft per sec or any other adjective or factor.
What works for one doesn't always work for others.
BigJim
QuoteOriginally posted by Mo0se:
There is no difference between target shooting and hunting...everything is a target. Either you hit it or you don't.
While this is true, there is certainly a difference between a live, moving target and an inanimate, static one!
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by BigJim:
I have no problem with longer bows if that is your thing, but to just take a certain design and lengthen it waters down the mechanics of that design.
If a bow is designed to be the most efficient at 28"s, it can certainly be shot by people with longer or shorter draws, but it becomes less efficient. This is why bows feel sooo much smoother as they get longer. They are not being drawn or worked to their potential...no problem but then don't ask for the
If I were to design my Thunderchild (currently 54",56",or 58") to be efficient for the same draw length but make the bow six inches longer (60".62",64" ...i also have other sizes) It would no longer be the same bow, but it would be my Buffalo model.
There are no magical fromulas, it is all physics and geometry. The human factor is what confuses everything.
Shoot what gives you the warm and fuzzy. This will help confidence and is more inportant than every ft per sec or any other adjective or factor.
What works for one doesn't always work for others.
BigJim
Great perspective. I just ordered a Bob Lee longbow in 62" length. I realize it will not be as smooth as a 64" and not as quick as the recommended 60" for my draw but I am hoping for that "warm fuzzy" in the 62" length. I agree that the confidence that comes from such a feeling is worth more than anything statistics have to offer.
Big Jim nailed it on taking a perfectly good design and stretching it out. It just won't be the same bow at all...
I don't think a lot of archers realize what goes into a bows design at all... Ron LaClairs Shrew was, and still is, an incredible feat of engineering.IMO.... To be able to get a 52" bow drawing 29" before she starts stacking up is very difficult to do. Early in my bow building adventure i built a one pc design very similar to Ron's Shrew. Ron took it as a compliment, and i had my hat in my hands in appreciation for the mans design... I no longer build them, but am still impressed with the design potential...
I think a HUGE part of archery is a mental game that hinges on confidence in our equipment.... If you have it in your heart that you shoot a longer length bow better than a shorter model. Then by God you are going to shoot the longer one better regardless of the two different performance levels of the bows...
Saying that longer bows shoot better than shorter ones is like saying "Blondes have more fun".... Eyes of the beholder, i say....
btw... I've always prefered brunettes myself.
I'm no bowyer Kirkll. Let me ask you bowyers this...I've had a 54",56",58"and 62" Shrew. (I screwed up and sold that 62". It was almost perfect) Thought I could get another. Things change. I've had a 56" and a 58" Thunderchild. And as I posted prior,a 62" Jim Gainey Banshee which was very,very close to Big Jims Thunderchild. I've had a 58",60",and a few 62" Centaurs as well. I'll stop there. My point is this...Of ALL these bows..the LONGER they were...The BETTER they performed. I'm being honest,and I realize I'm just one dude. BUT I have shot/owned them all. So for the sake of argument I ask...By adding just 3 inches to each limbs tip will change these good bows I've listed into something worse? Cause honest Kirk..If a Shrew performs as good as it does at 52"..and they were pretty damn sweet at 62"...how would 64" change that sweetheart by adding just a bit more. Same should hold true with the others I threw into the ring. Based on my experience anyhow. I highly doubt that my whine will cause any bowyer to go build a new form. But I'll cross my fingers just in case. rat'
I'm 5'9" and only have a 26 1/2" draw but prefer 67"to 68" Hill style longbows. I have shot the shorter bows. They get a little more speed being shorter but I just like the way the longer bows shoot and feel. Nothing against people who like the shorter bows. If it works for ya then great. That's what it is all about.
Glenn St. Charles was right, man is still trying to reinvent the bow!
Jim Hamm has a story also in P.A. this issue about longbows! :bigsmyl:
I have a 60 inch string follow that I have been hunting with. raw it to 28 incvhes with absolutely no problem at all. I build the Frontier 66 in lengths from 60 to 68 inches and have for several years. It is a true string follow with no reflex anywhere. Not only that it is a foreward riser. So far all of the owners really like the bows but they have not been a best seller by any means and I am actually thinking about discontinuing offering them due to lack of interest.
Like I said earlier there is lots of talk and little action when it comes to long bows IMHO. I believe this is because if you are a long , long bow afficiendo you perhaps think about one bow builder in particular. HH and I might say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that . However it explains IMHO why there is not a lot of incentive for other bowyers to build them.
God bless and hope you all had a great Thanksgiving , Steve
I thought longbows were part of the challenge?
They are for me.
I thought longbows were part of the challenge?
They are for me.
Rat, the 52-56" Shrews are the Classic Hunters and the 58-62" are the Super Shrews....they are 2 different bow designs.
Back to what Big Jim said...you stretch that TC out to the 64" bow you want...tweak it to make it perform well and walaa you got a Buffalo.
A long bow design dont make a good short bow and visa/versa...its that simple.
When it comes to longbow design and speed, the key is the amount of mass in the working limb. If you ever notice the short longbows also have shorter risers, and the longer ones have longer risers. It's important to keep a ratio of riser length:working limb at the optimum (I know what it is too, +/- a bit, of course) But if you go too long with the limbs, putting the tips past that ratio, you'll have negative returns and it'll slow things down, all the while feeling very smooth while drawing, and that's totally fine if that's what you like but that can also add some hand shock. This applies to any longbow design D/R, Hill styled, etc.
WESTBROOK how are ya? I was up in Manton this past June on my way home from Smallmouth fishing in Grand Traverse Bay Eric,and stopped at that little mom&pop restaurant there Northwoods maybe? Anyhow..That makes sure your full when you leave,and don't charge enough for what you get there. Awesome little place to eat at. OK..Here's what I'd like...A 64-66" Super Shrew. (cause that design supports a longer length) or a TC re-designed to work out that design for a longer length. Cause if the Shrew can...Others can. I put a 454 in a Chevette. It worked. Well. You nailed it! re-designed a bit to support a longer length,but retain the original lines for the bow as close as possible just like LaClair did between them Shrews. I've had both those Shrews remember. And I couldn't tell any difference in the way they looked,and the grips at all. I just liked the longer one. That 62" Banshee with Big Jims craftsmanship and killer grip would be the best damn Thunderchild in the world. That's what I think. From shooting both,at the same time,laying them right beside each other,measuring the dimensions tween them,I know what I'm saying bud. I also know I won't get what I want. And that sucks. Cause they would be awesome. I'm all done with this whole topic. If I had the ability to build a Shrew or Thunderchild in a 64-66" bow. I'd be doing it right now. No hard feelings here. Take care ya'all. rat'
Rat,
Great post! I have also spent too much buying and selling shorter bows. The only two bows on my wish list are 68 and 70".
"Thom, I love this 68" NM Classic"
"Thom, I loved you NM Classic so much I bought a Baraga."
Mind you I love shooting your Baraga, but I knew this day would come :)
Thom
A while back I designed what I called the /shrew Model-T. It was a longer riser, longer length, 62,64, and 66"
(http://shrewbows.com/Model-T/2_Model-T.JPG)
The left handed one is mine and I still have it
(http://shrewbows.com/Model-T/1_Model-T.JPG)
THOM! how ya' been? Long time,no see pal. Ready for leagues to start? I am. AHHH! I was all done posting on this topic Thom and you dragged me back in. For 1 more. Should have PM'ed you maybe. I like them Mists Thom. They are fun to shoot. I just am a R/D Longbow guy at heart. I've tried a lot of stuff T you know it's true. It seems that the whole point I am trying to get across is getting lost in translation at times it feels like. So in simple terms,one sentence to the core objective which unfortunately is a mute point it seems.
"A radical R/D longbow that is a 64-66" length"
I have my favorite designs which I feel the talented bowyers making them could build one that would stand tall. But I guess it can't be done T.
Stringfollows are fun Thom. But they just don't have the hot-rod feel of an R/D friend. That's that. See you in a few weeks Thom. I'm dialed in pretty good. Got some new arrows made up. Got to try and keep Mr. Denny at bay. :thumbsup: rat'
In fact I hunted with it at camp this year. It's 64" long
Personally I don't have a problem with any bow short or long I love em all.
(http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small72502482.JPG)
Here's one that shows the limb a little better
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Model_%20T%201.JPG)
You guys still building those "T's" Ron?
Haven't been for awhile but probably could start again. The 56" Classic is our most popular model
Correct me if I'm wrong but the bows Rat mentions are a type of flatbow design? Having owned and shot these hybrid or flatbows, I can understand the frustration. Maybe the issue is more so the design, than length? Maybe getting away from the heavily preloaded designs of these short longbows and look at a different limb design LB all together. Have you tried a mild reflex design w/ trapped limbs? I'm a recurve guy but have a 62'' Frederick Baron that's very nice to shoot, even for this recuve guy.
Hey Overbo,
Those Frederick longbows are sweet. I sold mine a couple of years ago and have regretted it. I think mine was a little longer, but don't recall for sure.
up
I don't think there is any shortage of long bows out there....is there?
If you want long....buy long.
Some guys just like short, so bowyers build them.
My 56" longbows and recurves shoot great!
:deadhorse:
quote:
Originally posted by riverrat 2:
:dunno: :dunno:
I love longbows bro. I love LONG R/D longbows. I feel there are some nice ones out there that would be great to own if they were LONGER. See.
It's not a silly thread. What a joke! I put the "dead horse thing" up because the whole point seems lost. But now I know they can't be made kirk. So... :deadhorse:
Just a thought... Have you looked at Herb Meland's Pronghorns... I think he makes a 66" one piece....
Jonathan
PS. Sending a PM shortly...
QuoteOriginally posted by riverrat 2:
I love longbows bro. I love LONG R/D longbows. I feel there are some nice ones out there that would be great to own if they were LONGER. See.
It's not a silly thread. What a joke! I put the "dead horse thing" up because the whole point seems lost. But now I know they can't be made kirk. So... :deadhorse:
What do you mean they can't be made? i believe you had several bowyers here including me that have said they CAN be made, and would be more than glad to do it.... Am i missing something here?
I've got an idea 'Rat,
you could have a 64" Centaur if you got yourself a 15" Dalaa DX5 riser and a set of Jim's ILF limbs in XXL. Just crank the preload up on them all the way to get the max energy out of them. OR grab a Dalaa 17 or 21 with XXL's and you could have up to a 70" bow. Again, you'd need to crank up the preload to make em hit max efficiency.
As for 1pc or 2pc bows, well some bowyers have the time to build the forms and do the r/d for a new model, others don't, so why force the issue? Like someone else said, a lot of it has to do with demand, and convincing the shorty lovers that they need a longer bow is like trying to convince a Corvette guy to trade in for a performance sedan. Though on a related note I will say Porsche does offer the 4-door Panamera as an alternative to the 911. Some guys like a Tacoma even if the Tundra guys don't get it.
I think this thread has ended up in something similar to what the movie industry calls 'development hell' LOL.
Just throwing in my two cents...but I have really enjoyed following this thread. Much discussion of bow mechanics and of bow design, topics that I find fascinating. Anything regarding how the bowyers out there transform stick and string into functional masterpieces is something impressive to me.
And whether an individual's preference is the long or short of it, I believe we are benefited by the number of bowyers out there trying different designs to satisfy many of the demands of the hunter/hobbyist.
I for one am thrilled we have the diversity out there to choose from, as I do have a few primary "go to" bows in my stable, but enjoy shooting a range of bows from longbow to recurve, long or short, to radical or mild r/d....just for the challenge and enjoyment of traditional archery.
But like I said, just my two cents!
Great posts nine9 and ejhorstick. Nine9 I really did think about jumping on the ILF wagon again. But brother I just don't like fussing around with the gadgetry of them anymore. Thank you though. I agree with your point ejhorstick of talented bowyers out there trying different designs for our enjoyment/demands. KirkII..yes you are missing something. Here it is..I am saying that there are ALOT of awesome R/D designs out there that stop at 62"es or a lot less. I fully realize there are OTHER R/D's out there that go beyond that threshold. I own,or have owned many of them. HOWEVER,I personally really like a lot of Short bow designs,in there look/feel/shape department and still believe they could be made into at least 64" models without sacrificing to much. I mentioned a few,but can rattle off a dozen more if you need me to. I hope you get what I'm saying. Not trying to argue..honest. And I'm not "forcing" anything nine9. I am however vocalizing my and many other archers frustration of seeing a design that really looks fun to try/own and then realizing to own it you have to buy a short version cause that's what it is. You like short bows? that's fine. Would you like to see some of the tons of bows you have owned and sold off maybe longer? Would they possibly have benefited from that? Just would like to see a larger variety in that department is all. rat'
I truly am enjoying this thread, I like hearing all the different thoughts on topics such as this. For those of us that have not been at this long it gives us something to think about and answers a lot of questions we may have. It's great to hear different opinions
I like longbows and have made a few comments already but since this is still at the top, I would like to add what I am really thinking.....
I wish JD Berry and Steve Turray and other reputable long bow builders would make a super short Recurve. say 54" for us short bow fanatics... :eek: :rolleyes:
Ok, I admit, I'm trying to stir the pot. :p
:bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I like longbows and have made a few comments already but since this is still at the top, I would like to add what I am really thinking.....
I wish JD Berry and Steve Turray and other reputable long bow builders would make a super short Recurve. say 54" for us short bow fanatics... :eek: :rolleyes:
Ok, I admit, I'm trying to stir the pot. :p
Mike Dunnaway of Wild Horse Creek Bows makes a 54" recurve, the "Mariah". Great shooting 50's style recurve.
I agree with you Tippit. I'm the same height and love my 56" Thunderchild and 60" PSA. Both are easy to maneuver in a treestand and easy to carry in the woods. For some reason, I seem to shoot them better too!
Rat , I totally understand what you are saying! Looking at the bows you have mentioned,(i have owned them as well) it would do you justice to shoot a whippenstik, his r/d design is awesome and his shortest length= 64"
Cool deal 'rat, I totally get where you are coming from, and I agree about ILF- its really neat and fun to mess with but for me it just makes me obsess about the tuning and I figure why bother if I have a bolt down bow that works perfectly for me. I will say some folks just crank down a lighter set of limbs to the max and basically make it a bolt down if its a particular setup they like.
I guess what I was getting at is that to me its about design constraints. Some bowyers have the time and means to develop something that fills the niche...Gregg Coffey is currently perfecting a 60" Elkheart for example! It may well prove to be his most brilliant creation yet. And by 60" Elkheart I mean a bow that has the same riser length as a 56 or 58, but just with longer limbs. He tells me it will go to 33" and guess what the draw force curve for it I got to see proved it. So that is a successful development of what started as a short design being made longer. 60" isn't long as you're wanting, but its a big step for a bow (Elkheart) that is typically ordered/offered in 56". The best part is the 60" will still shoot beautifully at even 27 or 28". Gregg's done good and I know if I add a second Elkheart to the stable someday I will try the 60" as a supplement to my handy 56er.
Other bowyers just may not have as easy of a time extrapolating a longer version from a proven short bow design. It may open a whole new can of worms, or worse yet reduce or eliminate the best qualities of said short bow. You follow? Like for example, if you make the limbs longer you also might have to make them lighter to give the same energy return for a given draw length...how do you go about shaving the weight? Oly limbs are carbon/ composite construction for a reason. You have to have quick recovering limbs on a 70" bow drawing 28-29" or its gonna be a dog. Just physics. It'll be smooth as butter, but the 64 or 66" bow of similar design will be snappier as along as your still within its smooth range and not stacking. Or something to that effect, I'm not a bowyer so I think I'll leave it at that.
There is merit to that nine is saying about the Dalaa..one riser and a multitude of limb in REC and LB from LOTS of manufacturers. I prefer the 21 and XXL combo :D Nothing wrong with the 3rivers LB limbs... Think Jim Belcher and Sky Archery. It's better to have the ability to fine tune the bow..than mess with arrow length/ weight until you are blue in the face!
Having 4 lengths of limbs to choose is not such a bad thing either. Surely there is a combo in that range perfect for everyone.
PS... for me, tinkering is part of the fun.
All Good points nine9. Great post. I hear ya' pal. Wind is outta my sails. Somebody posted earlier something to the effect of.. "If you've got it in your head 64-66" is the ONLY length,then that's the ONLY length." There are a lot of dang nice short longbows out there Chuck. You take care pal. (That Habu is aweful nice bud...Sellers remorse might get ya!) I've gotten that a time or two. rat'
(http://eaglewingarchery.i8.com/images/moss/mossfr1R.jpg)
This is my longest. 2 piece takedown, locket socket, 68 inch string follow, I build it from 68 inch to 60 inch.
God bless, Steve
No offense to any of the bowyers contributing to this thread, but after 9 pages I think it can be surmised that Ryan's grievance/frustration is specifically aimed at three makers.
Fun thread! Just sayin...
~CB
Hey Keith. How ya'been. I listed my best liked short R/D longbow bowyers there bud. There actually are a whole bunch more that have killer shortys that I like the design of a lot,and didn't list. No reason other than I just listed my top 3 whose designs are the best IMO. Just to short. rat'
QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I like longbows and have made a few comments already but since this is still at the top, I would like to add what I am really thinking.....
I wish JD Berry and Steve Turray and other reputable long bow builders would make a super short Recurve. say 54" for us short bow fanatics... :eek: :rolleyes:
Ok, I admit, I'm trying to stir the pot. :p
Well stirred Sir ;)
QuoteKirkII..yes you are missing something. Here it is..I am saying that there are ALOT of awesome R/D designs out there that stop at 62"es or a lot less. I fully realize there are OTHER R/D's out there that go beyond that threshold. I own,or have owned many of them. HOWEVER,I personally really like a lot of Short bow designs,in there look/feel/shape department and still believe they could be made into at least 64" models without sacrificing to much.
That was rather vague.... Are you looking for something specific? or are you just trying to make a point regarding the simplicity of bow design parameters?......
You can "believe" anything you want to sir. But there is a whole lot more to building a good shooting bow than the length of the dad burn thing........ I believe..... that's all i got to say about that....
I don't care about the length, as long as a bow shoots nice.I think length has to do with the design of a bow and your draw length.
I think that non r\\d bows, like HH have to be longer for getting optimal performance; due to the nature of the beast.
The more r/d, the shorter the bow can be. This explains why hybrids, recurves and statics are shorter then real longbows.
The same for drawlenght, the more draw length, the longer the limbs should be for most bows.
But the shorter the bow is, the easier it handles in the woods.
I think it is all in the design. I have shot bows of 58" who shot better then 66" bows.
I took the best of two worlds; with my draw length of 29 inches I settled down on 62" bows and have one on order of 60".
@ river rat: I am also very curious to read what the advantages of a longer bow exactly are?
A sweet draw?
Less handshock?
More accuracy?
Less finger pinch?
More quiet?
Etc?
Dutchman,congrats on being happy shooting a shorter bow. For me,I've already posted ALL the advantages length offers. As I re-read your above post...Looks like you have them all there. So that's MY opinion/experience anyhow. For me the shorter R/D's lack in a few of those paramount categories. And number 1 is finger pinch. 60" was tolerable on most I've owned if you didn't shoot more than 30 arrows. Less than that..the issue just got terrible for me. I also had consistency issue's as the length dropped. I wish that wasn't the case cause I've said farewell to some damn nice looking R/D bows with the best grips out there because of it. rat'
QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
Yea...Olympic archers don't understand the frustration of having a limb hit a treestand on release ruining a chip shot or scraping foliage and alerting game. Love short bows!
Agree with Michael.
I am a hunter not a target archer. All mine are 58". I have sold some great 60" bows because I kept banging the tips on everything. Haha. I have a 27" draw. If I had a 30" draw I may want a longer bow cut shorter bows suit me fine.
62" is as low as I will go. 66" is my high end. The shorter bows are a little easier to deal with when shooting from my Waldrop Pack Seat. To each his own. :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
Providing quality shorter bows satisfies the desires of the many.
My own preference is but a whisper among the cries of the many.
We are most gifted to have a host of premium bows to select from that satisfy the desires of all.
Surviving as a bowyer is likely most challenging.
My hope resides with their continued success.
My sentiments exactly...
64" recurves for me.