I just started long bow hunting last year. Long story short, I have shot 3 deer, all within 25 ft, all good lung shots, but have not been able to find the deer. I can't ever find a blood trail, and the deer never drop. I'm using a 45 lb r/d longbow (43 lbs at my draw), port orford cedar shafted arrows (27") with 125 grain broad heads. I used zwikey no mercy single bevels twice, sharp out of the pack, left hand bevel to match my left hand fletching. I also used a scirocco 125 grain with bleeder blades, again sharp out of the pack.
What am I doing wrong. I feel horrible that I these deer are suffering, and frustrated I can't harvest my hunt.
After 30 some trad deer I've never lost a lung shot deer. I wish I could help you out... but can tell you that equipment is not the problem.
A razor sharp BH through lungs should result in a short blood trail.
I'm curious how others will answer.
I would certainly question the "sharp out of the box" Zwickeys. I love Zwickeys; single bevel, deltas, Eskimos, but I've never found them sharp out of the package. All that I've taken new from the package were not even close to sharp.
Sorry, but I find very few broadheads sharp out of the box.
doug77
Yeah Zwickey is def not sharp out of the box took me and hour to get 3 to shave my leg hairs with no problem. They are sharp now!
Have you been able to recover the arrows? Could you tell if you had good penetration?
I don't know how much general bowhunting experience you have, but often if you only have an entry wound, no exit, you won't find blood for a good while down the trail. This is especially true imho if you hit a bit high. Until you can find blood, you have to follow tracks and other sign.
If that's not possible, you need to know the area, and start searching in a grid pattern.
I've never seen even a single lung shot go more than maybe a hundred yards.
I've also had a few that I could find absolutely no blood until I found the deer.
Finally, I've yet to see a a "traditional" broadhead sharp out of the package, but this probably isn't the issue if you know you had good placement and good penetration.
Again, I don't know your level of general bowhunting experience, but that's my 2 cents worth.
Somethin aint right here.............
Sounds like you need a nearby mentor for a short while.
I agree with the statements above, I don't think those heads come all that sharp "out of the box", however. . even dull as can be, if one was run thru both lungs, that deer is dead.
Talk a little bit more. . What happens ? You shoot, (tell us about the shots), the deer responds (tell us how), you go look for blood (tell us when and how), and you don't find any (then what)? From 25 feet (were you in a tree stand ? How high ? That is < 10 yards, where did you aim and hit ? Angles that close change things.
Keep talking so we can try to help from afar.
ChuckC
Do you wait before follow up? They will run off a ways, turn around to see if anything is coming and figure out what happened.... Then they lay down. Let them stay there a while and expire. If they see you coming they can really make recovery hard.
Neither of those broadheads are hunting sharp/adequate out of the box.
The broadhead doesn't matter at all in this case. A field tip will get it done bin the lungs. I always question where the deer was hit until the animal is recovered. A frothy red blood on the arrow would be a good sign, but I know a ton of people who don't hit where they think they hit, myself included. Very close shots are the toughest for me in this regard because the arrow isn't in the air long enough. All that being said, not all deer bleed the same. High shots tend to bleed less initially. A deer will put down way less blood per foot when running, and it important to follow them with your eyes as much as possible. If all If all else fails, tracking dogs are awesome. If you have any doubt at all on the shot, back out for a few hours, then if no trail vdoca thorough grid search.
I also agree with the statements about the Zwicky's being "Sharp out of the box"! All the ones I bought aren't sharp but can be with some strokes with the correct angle and a file stroking them from the back to front and forming a "Burr" then taking that burr off with a steel or stone..There are so many "How Too" videos on how to sharpen a two blade broadhead if you take the time to look here and ask questions.. No one will give you a hard time but rather help you in some way..I have a KME Broadhead sharpener that will get the heads sharp on a screw on Zwicky but there are some super cheap sharpeners that three rivers and other venders sell here that you just pull the blade through that has a carbide cutting blade in and they are good for someone that may not know how to sharpen with a file or stone..You can carry them in your pocket and they are made for single bevel heads also..Just trying to help you out and ask questions and you will get many good answers here...
3 deer all good lung hits and no recoveries, No blood at all, what are the odds, something ain't right here. These deer should all be down within 100yds. I would question the hits. My guess is somewhere in the brisket.
Bad times no doubt. Agree with all. Those heads are factory grount at best. Is the arrow/bow tuned right? Do you know how to track deer well? Are you hunting in rain? Theres an infinite number of variables. To properly answer your question from a semi-physics stand point: a 43 R/D LB, with a POC arrow with a good COC head at 25' in the lungs will most certainly kill a deer. If any of those variables changes its anyones guess.
If you are shooting them like they do on TV you will be hitting them in the guts. My guess is you are hitting them too far back and not hitting the lungs. Shoot straight up the leg and you will have better results. Check out the shot placement thread at the top of the page. Also make sure to touch up your broadheads they should be able to shave hair easily.
As a couple others have stated a sharp broadhead in the lu go will put a deer down within minutes nearly every time. Shoot just above the front leg, watch where the head off to and wait 15 minutes after the shot to go have a look. Generally I have found that the higher they are hit the less blood there is.
When I head over to where the deer was when I shot I will tie a piece of cloth or surveyors tape to a bit of vegetation where the deer was then start looking for blood in the direction the deer headed and tie off another marker where I last saw the deer. If you can't find anything start walking in an arc back and forth in the direction the deer headed looking for sign.
While following the blood trail if it isn't very heavy I will keep tying off markers every few yards as a reminder. If you can find your arrow it will also help to determine where on the body the deer was hit, bright frothy looking blood would indicate a lung, dark thick blood is generally a liver hit, if you find vegetation or digestive matter in the blood it would indicate a gut hit.
As to broadheads, the Zwickeys are great points (I've used them for years) but all that I have ever used need some work to get them sharp enough.
Joe, where do you live? There are quite a few of us here in Mi and all are good guys willing to help out another hunter.
1. Hang in there. Your getting good feedback.
2. Your equipment is not an issue as long as your arrow flight is good.
3. Never hunt with a broad head designed to be re-sharpened without making sure it will shave hair from your arm. (be careful with that).
4. Make sure you understand whitetail deer anatomy from all shot angles.
5. A deer can handle a lot of abuse on a hit high on a shoulder. Deer usually crouch a bit at the sound of a bowshot making a higher hit likely. Remember that a high hit can look pretty good from a tree stand. Usually a lot of arrow sticks out on a shoulder hit. Very little blood. Even heavy bows have trouble getting arrows through heavy shoulder bone so don't fret your setup.
6. Lower stand placement helps greatly with shot angle and exposing as much kill zone as possible. It will also provide a better blood trail if you don't get a pass through.
7. Bow hunting is a close up exciting experience and the anticipation of arrow striking game is very powerful. The urge to lift the head and see the impact will also cause the drawing hand to drop at the release. An inch of hand leaving the face will raise the impact of your arrow . Add the crouch of a deer at the shot and the tendency to shoot high if focus is lost, and that arrow is going to hit high every time.
8. Don't give up. Just pay attention to the details.
Sorry if I've been redundant or missed something on my first read through.
This is all great advice. That's the beauty of this site. Do the work, find the information on here. Lots of smart people have videoed and written it all down here. Research, research, research!
QuoteOriginally posted by Joe Destro:
I just started long bow hunting last year. Long story short, I have shot 3 deer, all within 25 ft, all good lung shots, but have not been able to find the deer. I can't ever find a blood trail, and the deer never drop. I'm using a 45 lb r/d longbow (43 lbs at my draw), port orford cedar shafted arrows (27") with 125 grain broad heads. I used zwikey no mercy single bevels twice, sharp out of the pack, left hand bevel to match my left hand fletching. I also used a scirocco 125 grain with bleeder blades, again sharp out of the pack.
What am I doing wrong. I feel horrible that I these deer are suffering, and frustrated I can't harvest my hunt.
Don't you feel something Is wrong with that topic?
What kind of newbie ( first post on TG) in trad bowhunting archery has enough knowledge to get 3 times in a season at less than 10 yards of deers and shoot them 3 times in the lung area, use and match the single bevel of his broadhead with his fletching, talk about the reflex deflex of the low poundage weapon he is shooting, seem to make his arrows and at the same time use dull broadhead (zwickey) ?
High odd for a Troll topic....
Don't know other than it is highly common to sincerely believe that the mark was in a certain place and later proved otherwise.
Would venture to believe that those that have hunted hard have recovered an animal where the mark was significantly different than where they had perceived.
QuoteOriginally posted by Stickbow:
Somethin aint right here.............
That's what I thought. Careful guys...
1ST, you harvest crops and kill deer!
I'm leaning towards my fellow archer from France w/ this one.
Unless you are just stirring the pot, I will just say that you need to learn what a sharp broad head is and then learn how to get them that way. Hunting with broad heads out of the box is poor. You also need to shoot them to be sure that they shoot well out of your bow and then sharpen them. Yea....something seems "off" here.
I'm with Chuck, I think you need a mentor. I've never had a lung shot deer go more than 200 yards. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who has. If you can't find blood just grid search the area.
Sometimes there isn't enough blood trail to follow, a few things you can do that may help:
1: go up #5-10 lbs in draw weight if you can shoot it accurately
2: if you can go up in draw weight, use an efficient 3 blade broadhead. You are looking for a 3:1 length/width ratio
3: Sharpen your broadheads!!!! Never trust the sharp out of the box
4: wait after the shot at least 90 minutes.
Next time you shoot a deer, sneak out and post on Tradgang with a description of your shot. We will help you find it:)
How come we have not heard back from the OP yet. His set up is good, But I'm with the other forum member. You kill deer, you harvest turn ups. I just can't see how he lost Three deer,Maybe you should learn how to track a wounded deer first before you kill one.
Looks like everything is accurate except your shot placement. If you shoot tree deer with good lung shots you would have harvested these deer. Looking at your equipment the only thing needed is a little more practice at shooting under the pressure of hunting.
BS
Thanks everyone for your comments. One thing I learned is that broadheads are not sharp out of the package. But like the one guy said, a field point at that distance should drop a deer, right?
So lets say the broadheads, although I now understand I need to sharpen them, were sharp enough, is it common for a 43# bow at 25 feet to not completely go through the deer? I have never had that happen.
I've read to wait about 15/20 minutes to let the deer settle down and die before tracking it and I have done that.
What is a common distance they will go before dieing?
I guess I just wanted to make sure a 43 # bow and 125 gr broad heads were appropriate.
I guess i need to learn to track better with no blood trail.
Would I have better luck with heavier broad heads (i.e., 165 g)?
Thanks again for the help. As far as people thinking I am trolling, when I get into something, I do a lot of research. I'm sorry if I decided to go full bore into traditional archery in the first year I took it up. Yes, I thought it would be cool if I built my own arrows, so I learned about it in the off season and bought a feather jig. In buying a jig, I had to learn about feathers, left hand right hand...
Sorry I used a term like "harvesting" as to distinguish between just killing a deer, and actually getting it.
Just wanted some help. I'm sorry there are people like this on here
Forgive me if this seems a bit blunt, but at less than 10 yards the type or weight of the broadheads you are using don't make a bit of difference. 43 pounds is plenty to get the job done at that range. Most importantly, if the shots were in fact placed properly, there is no excuse for not recovering the deer. A good shot to the lungs or heart should produce a dead deer within a maximum of 200 yards if the deer is left undisturbed for 30 minutes after the shot. Even with no blood at all you should be able to easily find the deer within an hour or two at most.
Joe- if your questions are for real. . . Seriously- a deer shot in the lungs with a truly sharp head: 1) feels virtually nothing. Many times- with a quiet bow- they will barely run or even just jump a few bounds dying within sight. 2) A lung shot deer - is dead within SECONDS! A 50-100yd tracking job took the deer under 10 seconds!
You really need a mentor or at least attend a Bow Hunter Ed course. Something is not right with the experience you are describing. . .
Dan in KS
Living in MIchigan I bet there are any number of guys from this site that would be willing to spend some time with you to get this figured out. You came to a good place with your questions and concerns. There is nothing wrong with your going full bore into this trad bowhunting thing and you seem to have the hard part figured out...getting into bow range of deer. My guess is that you simply need someone to take you step by step regarding gear set up and broad head sharpening. Your tackle seems adequate...my wife shoots 44# and does well but if her arrows don't pass my sharpness test they get resharpened. Her longest trailing job was about 80 yards. I once shot a moose that only took 3 steps before going down. Sharp broad heads, really sharp ones, are lethal beyond belief, at times. After doing this for 60 years I am still amazed at how deadly they can be. Keep at it but please get some personal assistance before you wound any more animals.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Carlsen:
Living in MIchigan I bet there are any number of guys from this site that would be willing to spend some time with you to get this figured out. You came to a good place with your questions and concerns. There is nothing wrong with your going full bore into this trad bowhunting thing and you seem to have the hard part figured out...getting into bow range of deer. My guess is that you simply need someone to take you step by step regarding gear set up and broad head sharpening. Your tackle seems adequate...my wife shoots 44# and does well but if her arrows don't pass my sharpness test they get resharpened. Her longest trailing job was about 80 yards. I once shot a moose that only took 3 steps before going down. Sharp broad heads, really sharp ones, are lethal beyond belief, at times. After doing this for 60 years I am still amazed at how deadly they can be. Keep at it but please get some personal assistance before you wound any more animals.
I agree I posted this a couple pages back.
Joe, you never said where you live?
Joe Destro,
I have heard this before and the only advise I can give is when someone tells me they had a good lung shot on a deer and the animal did not go down within 200 yards. you did not have a good lung shot scientifically impossible. a deer cannot run without air. most of the time this happens the archer did not hit the animal where they believe they did. a heart shot deer or a double lung shot deer is dead in forty seconds, they could travel a pretty good distance in that time but non the less dead.
Re-think your shot through, where was the deer the last place you saw him/her.
What was your state of mind, did you follow you plan when the animal came in? did you remain calm?
how many animals have you shot in the past with archery tackle that you had this same thing happen?
I will tell you the equipment is most likely not the problem, you could have sharpened the broad heads to the razor sharp edge, I had a guy with me one time shooting a compound he swore up and down his arrow hit right in the boiler maker, after he shot the 3d target we had at camp he was right. his arrow would hit perfect with field points on every time. Then we put the Broad heads to the test, his arrow hit close to to the same spot but his arrow was not flying true it was flying knock high, therefore hitting the animal with the arrow fly sideways getting no penetration and the arrow was not even close to vitals if you would calculate the exit.
Where in Michigan do you live? I'm in the South East part of the lower. If you are wanting some help (sharpening, shooting, tuning, hunting, tracking) Please let me know. If you are truly serious about getting better, I recommend you find someone to help you out.
If you prefer, email Me at miklvines@gmail.com
Take them up on it Joe. It will help you get better fast, give you some new friends and open opportunities for you. Plus it will help you realize that dream of harvesting / killing (what.ever!) your first bow deer.
No sense struggling when folks will gladly help you. We have all been new to this sport and needing to learn, just some of us were new back in the 50's, 60's and 70's.
Do it...
ChuckC
By chance are the deer ducking your arrow. It happens so quickly that it's hard to see, especially if you've never seen it. You swear you made a good shot and find out you hit where the deer was, right over it's back, or high above the lungs.
Joe, don't take offence about killing and harvesting. Harvesting is just a word to please anti hunting groups,They hate the word kill. But in reality: that's what we do. You are getting a lot of great advise from the forum members, Thers probably a millineum of years of experience here. We all started archery as newbees, and we are all still learning, Hell I'm 65 and forget a lot of things sometimes. But I remember things when i see them on the forums. That's why I enjoy reading other forum members. Good luck.
They were not lung hits - might have looked that way but they were not.
I suspect the broadheads were not sharp either - not finding blood is just about impossible if you are using sharp broadheads.
"all within 25 feet" is probably too close - that is 3 deer all around 8 to 9 yards - depending on the height of your stand deer that close invite one lung or side shoulder hits.
Start by reading books - these are a much better source to learn the fundamentals.
your tackle is very light - unless your hits are perfect - which is a broadside or slightly quartering away 10 yards minimum and 20 yards maximum with your feet no higher than 12 feet - at least for now.
You hit a deer in both lungs you won't need a blood trail cause you will hear it crash.
We use simmons sharks and almost always see or hear the deer fall.
and go ahead and get up with the NBEF and find a beginners bowhunting booklet. I saw some recently and these are still good information. These little booklets developed in the 60s and 70s will go a long way to getting you straight.