I am out here tuning my AD stingers (orange) @ 30" with 300 gr on front (bare shaft). The arrow is hitting close to where I want but is showing a bit stiff. However this doesn't make sense to me because the shaft is flying nock left the whole way which I thought is an indication of soft spine. And I remember reading something on the bowhunting alaska website (cant find it now) that too light of a spine can show stiff on an EFOC arrow or something like that.
My gut says I'm too stiff as I believe any bareshaft correctly tuned should fly straight like a normal fletched shaft.
Any advice for me?
RH or LH, what draw weight and draw length are you shooting, what spine is 'orange'?
What happens when you go up or down in point weight? Have you shot with a feathered arrow to confirm nock height? Sometimes a small change in nock or brace height will change your impact and flight just enough.
RH 55@28 Orange is .250. Shot feathered arrows, nock height seems good.
I can get these guys to hit on target left to right with point/length changes.
What is really throwing me off is the shaft kicking left or right (depending on point/length setup) Not always a lot but just enough to notice. Do you guys get your bare shafts to honestly fly perfect? I am wondering if I am just seeing the paradox. Is impact point all that matters?
I have never noticed a stiff arrow kick the nock out (or even slowly have the nock move sideways. I have seen this on an arrow that is too light though. What am I missing?
Here is where my questions start:
On the Tuffhead website the tuning article says in regards to tuning, that the impact point (left to right) is now at a good point. Then it states 'However, now that I am back far enough to see some of the flight of the shafts, I am starting to pick up a tail-kick during the flight. For some of you, this type of tail kick may very well look like a big sweeping motion, as thought the shaft is shooting around a curve (This is what my shafts look like) . This is nothing more than your eyes playing tricks on you. In fact, the point is going straight and the tail of the shaft is kicking left. This is a real mind blower if your not expecting it.' (Oh, yeah tell me about it!?)
Then it goes on to say; 'I will make another 1/8" cut and shoot several more shots before moving further back. What I am looking for at this oint is as close to the same results as I was getting at ten yards- straight flight and straight impact.'
I know many dont pay attention to impact angle (I havent been) but I would imaging you all pay attention to the shaft flight?
So when the tail kicks, it looks like he is increasing spine, yet I am even having it happen when I am shooting to the left (indicating too stiff).
Hopefully this helps you to understand what's going on and where my thinking is.
I just finished up where you are beginning. I bare shafts tested. I started with the lightest tip I had. A 30 aluminum BH adapter. The point went to the left of the target, nock end to the right. I kept adding weight until the shafts were hitting straight, to alittle right of the target. Nock left. These shafts are supposed to be 325 deflection, whatever that means. #R has them spined 35 to 55 It took 300gr on a HH lite shaft. I am shooting a 60# @ 28.3/4, I draw to 29 1/2 the shaft is 30" I was able to shoot, feathers, BH and even a snuffer with the bare shaft at 12 yards. All other bareshafts were at 22 yards. I hope this helps.
I'd say put your fletching on, get them hitting your spot dead on, & quit pulling your hair out over bare shaft tuning bro.... It's just not worth the heart ache to me...
Thanks guys. I am wondering if you can ever even get the tail wag out of these EFOC arrows. Depending on length I am 27-31% right now. They are so light on the back end that it seems after that initial paradox around the riser they just dont come back. I have no idea really I'm just speculating. This is acting differently than when I have done this with 'normal' arrows in the past.
I dont know if it is a big deal or not, I just figured I'd ask. That article was the only time I have heard the tail kick mentioned.
On some bows, the longer the shaft overhang is, the harder it can be to find the sweet spot. A .250 does sound a little stiff for a 55# bow, unless you have a long draw length with plenty of weight up front.
Have you tried raising or lowering your brace height, or changing the thickness of your side plate material?
Point of impact is more critical than bare shaft flight, and is usually sufficient to achieve good broadhead flight. That being said, I personally strive for a perfectly flying bareshaft. And it should be obtainable with any bow, given you properly match the dynamic spine with your draw length/weight.
Try stepping farther back to get a better idea of where the shaft is trying to go. You could also shoot through paper to see what that will show you.
Thanks, I'll try those things. .250 seems a lot stiff to me but I think is the range I need. It seems the spine does not seem to correlate well with AD shafts compared to parallels. I have trad lites (same spine as the yellows i.e. one step down from the orange) and they are cut to the min length and still can only handle about 175 up front (including insert) before they get weak. that isn't even 10 gpp.
The best setup I have found so far is a full length orange shaft with 300 up front. It hits just where I need it and has just a slow soft sweep of the nock to the left during flight.
I haven't messed with my brace height or shelf material because I have been too stiff. I have been shooting at my min brace height and my shelf material, though just replaced, is as thin as I can get.
I'm a fan of bare shafting but I've heard that you don't bare shaft AD's?No experience here,with them but you might ask specifically about that.You may want to PM Terry Green.I believe he uses them.
Higher FOC arrows actually come out of paradox much quicker than normal FOC.
Thanks Jim! Maybe that will explain this. It just seems all that I see is backwards from what I would expect. I expected to see less paradox for sure. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the less tail wag on the 32.5 full length shaft was simply due to the longer length vs the 30 inchers. I'll look into that!
What do you guys think about the GT Velocity shafts?
Just asking because I didn't buy that many of these AD's and will need to buy more anyway.
Do you guys think I would be better served with the GT Velocity? As best as I can tell I wouldn't get near the FOC with them though. With the AD's I can get 27-31% in the 560-580 gr range. That is measured on the table. The GT Velocities only yield 23-24% in that same weight. But that is via a calculator.
This is a pretty interesting thing to consider. I am after the most forgiving arrow I can make. But I am not sure which corner to find it in.
On one hand it sounds like the AD shafts dont bare shaft well for a lot of people. But offer better FOC. Not being able to bareshaft says to me they rely on the feathers more which is bad for forgiveness, yet they yield more FOC which is good for forgiveness.
The GT shafts seems to be the opposite. You should be able to perform Bare shaft planing just fine and get it dialed in just right (more forgiving), but ultimately yield less FOC (less forgiving).
Do you guys see what I am saying? Which do you see as the most profitable area to look into?
I am seriously considering just getting the GT's and keeping these for stumping arrows.
I shoot wood, so I'm only at 15% FOC, so take this with a grain of salt.
You should be able to get straight flight as if you are shooting fletched shafts. Unless you are shooting with a machine, or you are a world famous trick shooter than can robin hood 4 arrows in a row, I would tune to arrow flight and not point of impact. To me, there are just too many factors that could contribute to you shooting left or right of your target.
If it were me, I would either build the side plate out and see if that helps at all. If it does, than you know your shafts are too week. If nothing conclusive comes from building out the side plate, then sacrifice one arrow and start cutting it down. You should be able to get it to fly straight (to your eye) at 20 yards, in my opinion.(at least I can, but I've never played with UEFOC carbon arrows)
P.S. are you tuning with field points or broadheads? I would tune with field points first, then tune your broadheads so you have a baseline to work from.
Have used the black Gt,trad Gt, and ultralight Entrada Gt. You can get high 20s to30ish efoc with the Entrada Ul GT but you will be at 650 gr approx. The trads will get you mid 20s foc at approx same weight. The GTs are imho a great balance of toughness,5/16 diameter for standard available components, and price. Get the blems for the best value going so you don't have cardiac infarction WHEN you lose or break one. The skinny shafts and others are great but you will pay $ and may have to order components which is a PIA. Try the entradas and ask Big Jim if he has the blems.
I have found that an arrow hitting the shelf shows all types of erronious indications. I would move the nock up 1/16 and see if indications change.
I'm going to say just the opposite of Wandering Archer. IMO, and I'm a firm believer in bare shaft tuning, unless you are a machine or have an olympic level release, you are never going to get perfect flight with a bare shaft. You WILL however get bare shafts to fly to your point of aim when you get the right spine/point wt. combo, regardless of what the tail end of the arrow is doing. At this point, fletch 'em up and you should be good.
Wandering archer: I have an easy thing to stick on real quick, so I'll give that a try.
Al: your comment is very interesting, as I just put on a new string and haven't messed with the nock point. It seemed like it was working fine, but I'll raise it up just to see. Building out the shelf 'shouldn't' help as I am stiff, but like you said who knows at this point.
I'll feather them up and see what it looks like. I had no idea these things typically dont bare shaft tune. I am happy to find out I am not totally crazy...
I'll also tune my nocks. I noticed they are all pretty tight and I wonder if that would bleed off enough power to make them show stiff. I did a lot of testing with equivalent stuff I had before ordering these shafts. I am really really surprised they are showing stiff. I feel like it could be something little but stupid like the nocks and just a hair thicker (i.e non worn out) shelf material.
If your nocks are too tight, that will certainly interfere with your results. Also, if you increase your brace height, that will effectively weaken your dynamic spine. A change in string material and construction type will also change a bows dynamic spine requirement.
Do a google search for the Easton tuning guide. You should be able to download a pdf version.
I am familiar with the spine cause/effects. My arrows were showing stiff. This was all done at my min brace height so I was giving it as much juice as I had to soften them up.
I believe that you increase the brace height to increase preload and get more juice. Min brace gives you a longer power stroke and multiplies poor shooting form, which may be part of your problem of inconsistences in arrow flights.
Minimum brace height gives a weaker, but longer push. Raising your brace will give a stronger, but shorter push. Meaning more initial energy to induce paradox. If your arrows are showing stiff, then increasing brace can effectively weaken them.
Am I totally off on this?! I always heard that less brace height equaled weaker spine because it has a longer powerstroke???
Hmm, I googled it and I get all sorts of people saying either way.
This explanation makes the most sense to me
(http://shootingthestickbow.com/images/brace%20height%20-%20spine.JPG)
So with a higher brace height, the bow should be quiter (less limb slap on a recurve anyway), more forgiving, slower with a heavier peak draw.
Do I have this right now? How could I be so off on this? Why are so many backwards on this like me (according to google)? Does it ever act different on different bows? What the heck!
To my knowledge, it will only act differently if you go to one extreme or the other. And usually, that will be the result of bringing on another issue, most likely contact with the shelf or strike plate. The closer cut to center the strike plate is, the less of an effect it will have, but it will still have an effect!
Your initial thinking is the most logical (and was my own at one time), but there are more variables to consider than just the obvious. Your diagram is a good illustration of one of those variables. Another important factor is the preload of the limbs.
By shortening your string (increasing brace height), you are increasing the preload of the limbs and creating more string tension. This means that the limbs are already bent more at rest than with a lower brace (moving the center of the working limb length). So they will have more tension (or strength to return to brace), and less string slack and travel. I'm not sure about increasing peak draw weight with a higher brace, as your draw length does not change, but I have not confirmed nor denied this with a scale. I know that a lower brace will generally feel smoother to draw, but again, there are many factors that affect that as well.
It is generally accepted that a higher brace equals a more forgiving bow, but the most forgiving a bow can be is when it is shooting a perfectly tuned arrow!
Yes, you will sacrifice a couple fps by increasing brace, but in my experience, it's not enough to alter your effective range. Again, a perfectly flying arrow will perform better than one that wobbles or kicks even if it is slightly faster.
Well I talked to Tim (I think it was) at Raptor Archery and with your help also Pheonix Archer, I was able to bring these arrows where I needed. I didn't adjust brace height because I was hitting left and I thought increasing it would make that worse. From my experiences and what I read brace height on these Arrow Dynamic makes a larger difference than any other adjustment including large point weight changes and cutting 2" off the shaft. I'm at my max brace height now and show just a bit weak. So a little more tuning and it will be just right.
Thanks again for all the help!!
I would pay more attention at this point to how the bareshaft is striking the target. Our eyes can deceive us and many times do, but I think you are getting a false weak read on the arrow flight and the true stiffness is showing when the shaft hits the target. A perfectly tuned shaft should both fly straight (relatively) and hit the target pretty straight. I would ultimately recommend a much lower spine arrow. The only way I think you could get that arrow that spines out at .250 to bareshaft out of a 55# bow and 28" draw is to leave it full length with a maximum amount of point weight at the end. I can get the AD Trads to shoot great out of my 60# at 28" Widow PLX that I draw to 27.5" but I have to have 100 grain inserts and 225 grain points. They still bareshaft a little stiff but fletched flight is flawless with them cut to 30". I get even better flight though from my AD Trad lites that spine out at .375 cut to 29" with 72 grain grizzly stick inserts and 200 grain points out of the same bow and they bareshaft perfect. You can get good flight from the arrows you have as all the AD shafts I have shot the spine is much softer on the tail end (I am not real sure how the actual spine of the shaft is measured) So it is possible to shoot a much stiffer arrow than needed from your bow with really good flight, you just won't be able to use an extremely big broadhead like Simmons treesharks but short of that you should be fine. Sorry to get so long winded but I thought this would give the best explanation and examples.
Snowplow, I'm glad you are finally headed in the right direction, and that I could help at least a little. Let us know where you settle in at. Your experiences just might help another trad archer! Good luck, and shoot straight.
If you desire a well bare shaft tuned bow/arrow and it seems you are really struggling w/ carbons. Why not try aluminums? I have found aluminums a lot more bare shaft tuning friendly.
Or as Kirk said,
just stick some feather on them and go.
X2 on the aluminums.
I think good aluminums have much more consistent spine than carbons; carbons seem to vary quite a bit, this being confirmed by several people with spine testers in various posts.
Thanks guys, I forgot to mention I did fletch them up. They were still hitting to the left with feathers. Now though both feathered shafts and bare shafts hit center. And the bare shaft flight is pretty darn good. Just a bit of kick but straightens quickly. I couldn't be happier
Ok, been shooting all night. I have set on a brace height of 7-1/4. That seems to be the ticket and the bow seems to be about the quietest there too.
This arrow setup is 28% FOC and 560 grains so almost perfectly 10 GPP. On paper it is totally awesome. But it does seem a little picky to me. It seems more forgiving than my normal CX shafts, but still doesn't shoot as good as my 10 year old set of beat up Trad Lites.
I really like the 60x120 4 fletch and have shot it a lot in the past with 4 inchers but I couldn't seem to get them to fly just perfect so I fletched up some 3x 5" shields as well just for comparisons. The 3x5 shields definitely fly better. And I have always shot cock feather out or in with 3 fletch but my new bow definitely liked cock feather up much better.
Then I took that 3 fletched one and compared it to my old Trad Lite (also 3 fletch with 5.5 shields) which is my gold standard for perfect flight. It looks like it is going way slower just because there is absolutely not a quiver from it in flight. Both shafts weigh within 10 grains of each other.
The new AD's fly really good, just not next to my old trad lites. The only difference between the two arrows are the old trad lites have 5.5 shields (vs 5") and are 1 inch shorter (29" vs 30"). Both arrows even calc out to 28% FOC as measured on the bench. I have been shooting at 30 yards. I have tried 275 on the front (25 down from my 300 target) and that made the flight worse and actually caused a small kick. And tried up to 350 on front (50 up from my 300 target) and that didn't help at all. Alternatively, the Trad lite still just flies absolutely perfect with 225-275 no problem. The new set of nitro stingers also seems very sensitive to brace height. Not so much with the trad lites.
I am running out of ideas on how to get that last bit out of these.
My theories at this point are
1. Maybe the flight isn't actually better on the trad lites at all, they just seem more visible since they are crown dipped. (doesn't seem likely to me)
2. Maybe that extra .5" of feather makes all the difference? (I dont have any or I'd try)
3. Being 1" shorter has helped somehow? I dont really want to be that short, but I could make it work. I could definitely cut off 1/2" no problem. I am thinking I should cut off half an inch.
Where do you guys think I should go next on this?
QuoteA change in string material and construction type will also change a bows dynamic spine requirement.
I realize its a little late now but this is absolutely true.
Also,
When comparing the flight of these different arrow configurations are you shooting through paper or just eyeballing them as you shoot? It is my experience that it is extremely difficult to visually differentiate "perfect" flight from "nearly perfect" flight just with the naked eye. I have to shoot fletched arrows through paper to determine if they are truly flying as good as it looks like they are, and have on more than one occasion been surprised at the results that my "perfectly tuned arrows" showed when shot through paper.
I love bareshaft tuning. I use It to get my arrows shooting where I look. As far as arrow flight goes, shooting through paper is a valuable tool. The good lord blessed me with very good vision, and I have still found on many occasions that I'm not seeing very small problems with my arrows in flight. Give it a whirl. Best of luck.
Jake
I would guess those 5.5 feathers are hi-back style in comparison to your 4'' or 5'' feathers. The taller profile will make a slightly out of tune arrow fly very well.
IMO,
Shooting form is the cause of your arrow kick wows. I have never had a bare shaft that ''kicks'' impact perfectly at distances beyond 15 yards. How far are you bare shafting? If your form is good and arrow matched to the bow, one should be able to bare shaft cleanly well beyond 20yds.
Yep the 5.5 shields are high backs. I am shooting 15-30 yards bareshafting. I was thinking why they are in the target straight is because they are 28% FOC.
I have never paper tuned with a trad bow. I'll look into that. For what it's worth, I wasn't sure if I could trust what I saw as far as flight goes, but I have shot them now so so so many times back to back and every single time 'what I see' is the same. I just put a different 4x4" fletching pattern on my old trad lites to see if they fly worse or what. I figure if they still fly good then the shaft is just setup better. If they fly bad then it has to be the feathers and I'll fletch one with the same exact setup as the other to compare (5" low pro shields). Thanks for the ideas guys.
Put some broadheads on and see where they group. You have to remember that you are shooting a short bow and they are alot less forgiving of shooter error.
Will do Chris. I went and shot my arrows and have some good news. I shot one of my old trad lites that I fletched with 60x120 4" to compare with a new AD orange with the same setup. Sure enough they flew the same. So without a doubt it was the 5.5 hi profile shields that made those arrows stabilize consistently quicker.
I would rather not go 5.5 as it is tighter than I want to my arrow shelf. Is there such a thing as a 5" high profile shield cut?
I have seen them before on arrows but never for sale. Are they burnt?
Are you still shooting split finger? If so make sure you are not pinching the string. Also do you have two nock sets on? If not try that. There should be no reason to have to use such big feathers. Also what are you using for a rest and side plate?
Hey Chris, I am shooting split. It seems like this bow likes 3 under even less than the others. Probably because the length? I do run two tied on nocks. My rest and side plate are new and made of the stick on black leather you get at 3 rivers.
With the 5" shields in 3 fletch I have gotten some shots that flew perfect but very few. Most of the time there is just a tiny quiver about 10 yards out from the bow. With the 5.5" high backs on the trad lites I always get a perfect flight with no discernible wobble at all.
Maybe it's my release at this point?
Most likely release issues. You can try going to Velcro for your side plate. Using a softer rest and plate will sometimes soften an arrow up and if you have silencers on your string try moving them closer to your limb tips or just trim them smaller.
I had my bow tuned pretty good and thought I would move my puff balls to a different spot that someone on here recommended and my tune went to hell just moving each one less than two inches.
This has been such a great learning experience. Thanks for entertaining this guys and for all the wisdom.
So last night I got a pretty good shock. I went out after work to shoot a bit like I have been. It seems every day when I look at it with a fresh set of eyes I can see a little more of what needs to be done.
I have the old trad lites and my new nitro stinger oranges. One of each is 4 4" fletched and 5-5.5" 3 fletched. I realized that my tail kick was worse on both 4 fletched arrows. It was still there slightly with the 3 fletched 5". And with a fresh set of eyes (and some daylight for a change) just slightly there with the old 5.5" fletched trad lite.
So I observe that the more feather in contact with the shelf the worse the kick gets. And the Old trad lite just looks the best because it has less spine and less feathers and largest profile of all.
It seems to me that the arrow is not flexing around the shaft enough to clear the feathers. This is also supported by noting that for the first time in my experience, flight gets worse with cock feather in.
I have to think more about this. I am baffled on how to solve this problem at the moment. Maybe I am just stuck with too stiff of shaft? My personal rule is to never buy on a whim and I did here. I had planned to get the AD Yellows with a .350 spine (same exact as the trad lites) but they didn't have any to try and I was surprised at how well the oranges shot bare shaft with no tuning at 20 yards. I think I screwed up.
Then since I was as 'tuned' as I could get at the moment, I took off my brand new SBD string and put on my old string just for a comparison. What I was looking for I didn't know, but wow was I surprised.
I strung it up, didn't set brace height but noted where it was (7-1/8" [7 is min]) and when I shot it I almost couldn't believe it. It was so much quieter it was almost not even comparable. I noticed the new string was louder when I first put it on but figured that was because it was new. I think the old one is also a SBD (looks exactly the same) but I am almost positive at this point that it has hush puppies and bow hush. And it seemed all the arrows flew better i.e. less kick. At this point I was utterly baffled and it was almost dark.
So I'll have to continue with that tonight. In the mean time, can we talk more about this:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jake Scott:
QuoteA change in string material and construction type will also change a bows dynamic spine requirement.
I realize its a little late now but this is absolutely true.
Jake [/b]
If you need me, I'll be sitting here with my eyes crossed....
If it were a release issue, how can the old trad lite consistently shoot clean, but not the others?
It sounds like you are on the stiff side of your tune with the new arrows and the older ones are more in the middle of tune so would be more forgiving.
I agree Chris. I have tried everything I know; point weight, length changes, brace height, all feather combo's (just because), and even two strings.
They are too stiff. I am going to have to call this a fail. But I sure did learn a lot. Thanks all for the help.
Anybody interested in AD orange shafts lol....