I had a Black Widow PSA that I just sold to buy a new Roy Hall Apache longbow/hybrid.It is 45#@28" and my BW was 44#@28".I draw 28".with a 440gr 15/35 Gold Tip with a 175gr fp I was shooting 172 with my BW.I'm shooting the exact same arrow out of my Apache and it is 157fps.That is a 15fps loss and my arrows are dropping 6" at twenty yards.I love the bow.It's smooth,great looking,and very quiet which is the main reason I sold my BW and went to a longbow.Can anyone explain the speed loss or are these bows that much slower?
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Johnson:
I had a Black Widow PSA that I just sold to buy a new Roy Hall Apache longbow/hybrid.It is 45#@28" and my BW was 44#@28".I draw 28".with a 440gr 15/35 Gold Tip with a 175gr fp I was shooting 172 with my BW.I'm shooting the exact same arrow out of my Apache and it is 157fps.That is a 15fps loss and my arrows are dropping 6" at twenty yards.I love the bow.It's smooth,great looking,and very quiet which is the main reason I sold my BW and went to a longbow.Can anyone explain the speed loss or are these bows that much slower?
well, GENERALLY a recurve will out perform a longbow. It has a lot to do with the design of the limbs(which is why some recurves are faster than others with the same weight arrows).
I am not familiar with the Apache longbow, but I own a black widow and it makes shooting any other bow hard due to how well I feel it performs. Though I don't have a chrono, I know that It shoots a pretty flat trajectory out to around 30 yards or so. But i do shoot lighter arrows(around 9gpp).
Different designs have different results! BW's are known to be a somewhat fast design. Comparing two different bows like that is apples to oranges.
If you really like the feel of the new bow, you just have to shoot it enough till you get used to its trajectory. If you decide you just can't stand that trajectory and really want a hybrid longbow, you are just going to have to go find one that is faster by design and fits in your hand!
Bisch
You may have dropped a bit of draw length as well--not uncommon going from recurve to longbow--even a hybrid style can normally have a lower wrist grip that can shorten things up a bit on draw length. I have owned Roy's bows and found them to perform really well. Of course, speed doesn't mean that much to me. I much prefer a quiet shooting, stable bow.
Ray, I have two PSAs. One at about the draw weight you mention. Similar fps on my chrono. I have had several long bows. All quiet and light, which is what I love about long bows. However, all but ones with carbon limbs, like ACS, shot slower at the same weight. With 8.5" brace height, cat whiskers 15" and 9" from the end of the string, and a sticktamer, my PSAs are nearly as quiet as a long bow. Hard to beat combo. Which is why I keep returning to BWs.
Draw length is measured from the nock on the string to the far side of the shelf. Your longbow most likely has a thinner riser than the PSA. That means that the longbow has to be pulled back another half inch or so to reach 28 inches, as it was measured and determined by the bowyer. While the distance from the deepest part of the grip to the corner of your mouth is the same for both bows, the PSA was measured at 28", and included (let's say) a 2" riser. So, grip to anchor would be 26 inches. The longbow riser being thinner (let's say 1"), if you draw it the same 26" from grip to anchor, the bowyer is going to say it is only drawn to 27", which means the bow is a hair lighter than you think it is.
That's most likely why you see such a difference.
I agree with the draw length solution. Losing 1" of draw could mean a loss of 5-10 fps...or even more.
Use of a chronograph has resulted in the sale of more bows than most anything else...so pack it away or you will be trading or selling bows. Ask me how I know. ;)
First and foremost you need to consider the draw length discrepancy.
Otherwise, all things being equal...
Its all about differing designs, strings, tuning etc. Those numbers sound in the ballpark for difference between the two styles of bow, but your mileage will vary..you could pick up another hybrid with more aggressive r/d and have the difference only be 5-10fps instead of 15. I'm sure the Hall bow is quieter than that BW so that is an undeniable advantage. What type of string/silencers are you using? Throwing a skinny hi-po string on the new longbow should make up a good 3-5 fps right there by itself, you'll be good to go...
Normally, longbows are slower; I don't know any longbow that can match the fastest recurves. But, they are generally much quieter, so it's a trade off. At short range, all you need to do is to get used to the trajectory, and it's all good.
Tons of variables to consider.
Not to step on any toes...but AMO draw length is measured to the deepest part of the grip plus 1.75". That is usually the back of the shelf, or close, but not always.
Picking up 5 fps from dropping strands in a string is on the high end in general. Going from an overbuilt to a "skinny" string may give you that result if you don't add a bunch of weight back by building up the serving. You can pick up that much or more by working on your release.
Type of string, how well it's built, silencer weight, etc. can make a difference. How the nock fits will matter--tight will rob you of energy.
Roy's bows are generally pretty quick. It could be the difference in bows, or it could be one or more of several other things.
I knew it was only a matter of time before the real know-how chimed in- LBR!
The release factoid is definitely notable, it is something you can notice shot to shot if you pay attention.
Everyone is kinda pointing out that it could be a variety of things, but I will just come out and say it: changing styles of bow cold turkey will definitely take some adjustments! LOL. Think of it as a golden opportunity to really learn about bow design and what makes a bow do what it does, as well as all the fun of super tuning. Whatever happens, I think you'll end up a better archer than you were prior to making the switch, to what degree is variable, but learning a new 'system' can only have benefits in the long run.
Keep the board posted as to your progress in tuning your new setup!
Yep, most LB's don't shoot as fast as the same poundage recurve.
I have found one that does though and I love it. Zipper Nitro. Its is same weight as my zipper recurve limbs and it shoots just as fast. They of course are R/D longbow limbs. Both sets are carbon.
my border harrier gl and a&h are a lot faster than my black widow, and the black widow was heaver by 1#.
black widow makes great bows ,but I do not think they are known for their speed .
combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH
X2 - only mine is a PSA
Some of them are, but I think the fastest bows in Blacky's tests are recurves. I never worried that much about speed, though. I've never shot my recurve through a graph. I just find an arrow that shoots good, and shoot it all the time. I doubt I get 170, to be honest.
A true wealth of information on the difference between bow designs, basic construction, and HOW they do what they do is to be found in VOL.1 of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible. VOL.1 to me is a must read for anyone who truly gets deep into trad.
My 50 lb Samick sage shoots much faster than my bear 60 lb longbow. Oh well, I love the longbow and it put a bunch of meat in the freezer this year.
My personal favorite bows have always been hybrids. Best of both worlds.
Ray, you can obviously see that people have different opinions on what a certain bow design will do. You have the facts since you used a chronograph. Many trad shooters only use the eye test, thus the conflicting "results".
So long as the bows had similar string material and you shot enough arrows through the chrono to have sufficient sample size for an accurate median, you found the answer to your question already.
My long bow (55# Bear Montana) never did shoot quite as fast as my recurve (50# Indian Archery) but I found it to be much more forgiving in the shot and I personally love the way it shoots over the recurve. as said before, different designs will produce different outcomes.
I own both recurves and hybrids. Alot of things factor into performance. The recurves basic advantage is that the drastic bends of its design creates more stored energy. Still
I prefer to hunt with my hybrids. Having a smooth plush draw and quietness. One of my recurves by design just smokes an arrow and no other bow I own compares to its performance.
My recurve of choice is Wes Wallace. It's not even close to the fastest recurve I've shot; one of the fastest I've personally seen was one of Rick Welch's designs. However, I don't shoot anything else as well as the Wallace bows, so that's that. At the speeds we shoot, I think how the bow feels and shoots for you trumps speed every time. If I want to shoot faster, I go to a lighter arrow. Those longbows have something about them, I just can't shoot them well. Wish I could.
combos are faster than some recurs I have long bows there as fast as my black widow PCH
Something to consider...did any of us get into this side of the sport for speed?
I doubt it, but as someone above said, many bows have hit the road after being shot through a graph! A fast bow is good, no doubt. You can shoot a heavier arrow, all else being equal, and get just as flat a trajectory. I haven't seen all that much difference between traditional bows, although the Dryad I just got is really fast, much faster than what I am used to. That's more of a super-curve, I guess. I don't believe I'll ever shoot it through the graph, though. My friend had a Centaur hybrid type bow that smoked, as I remember. That was a beautiful bow.
We didn't get into this side of the sport for speed, but comparing two bows that are otherwise equal, most if not all people would choose the one with higher speed, so speed is a legitimate factor to consider.
The bottom line is that we want the bow that will get the job done best for us, whether the job be putting meat on the table or winning a 3D tournament. Speed is only one of the factors that get the job done. OTOH, most of us have come across bows that are just too slow for no explainable reason, even compared with another bow of the same exact model and specs, even some made by top bowyers, and we don't want those either.
It was mentioned that Black Widow was not the fastest recurve around. The reason for this is not because Black Widow can't figure out how to make a fast bow, but because they want their bows to be fast, forgiving, and reliable, and like every other bowyer out there, they are trying to design a bow that offers the best mix of the three. They purposely set the grip forward, because that helps to eliminate problems with bow torque, knowing that a forward set grip is also going to slow down the bow, because it means that the brace height is going to be higher than it would be if the grip was more in line with the riser. Of course, they attempt to make up the speed loss by design changes in other areas, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch. People who buy Black Widows (or any other bow) buy them because they think they will get the job done better than whatever alternatives might be out there.
I'm not trying to promote Black Widow, but all bowyers face the same design compromises, and it seemed as good an example to use as any.
I always thought of Widows as being relatively fast for a recurve. Not the fastest, but on the high end.
QuoteOriginally posted by Diamond Paul:
I always thought of Widows as being relatively fast for a recurve. Not the fastest, but on the high end.
I believe that's correct. Just that they're not as fast as they could be if that were the only thing they were trying to accomplish.
To me that seems kind of slow for ten grains per pound, are you dead sure you had accurate Chrono results, if I stand too close to mine I get low readings. You need to be more than an arrows length away from the first aperture. Does it seem like it's really shooting that slow, the six inch drop could be just you adjusting your new sight picture.
I think that you ought scale the bows at the length that you draw them, and then post their respective weights here so we can all see! Measure from the nock point to the deepest part of the grip, for consistency.
Wow,I posted that question from my deerstand on my phone this morning.I just now checked the thread from my home computer and had 31 replies.Thanks for all the replies.Now,I'm more confused than ever.LOL.I love this bow and it is a beauty to look at.It's smooth and quiet with zero handshock.It is a very different animal than my Widow was but I'm excited about it.I can hit at 15 yards with my broadheads well enough to hunt so I took it this morning and plan to take it tomorrow.I won't take a shot over 15 yards though.The arrow drop seems significant at 20 yards and it might be some thing that I just have to get used to.By the way,it shoots the same arrows as my Widow did great.
I don't mind the loss in arrow speed but I was surprised by it.It could be the bowstring to I guess.I was using the one that came with the bow.I bought an extra and it is an 18 strand FF made by Stone Mountain.The bow is fairly quiet now.Would a smaller diameter string increase arrow speed without being louder?
The main reason I switched to this Roy Hall hybrid is because my Widow was loud.I could shoot it well and had it made for me in 2008.I hated to part with it but couldn't afford this bow without selling my Widow.I like the light physical weight of the Apache and it just seems to be a better "hunting" bow.I may drop some points in tournaments with my new bow but I hope to get to where I can shoot it as well as I could my recurve.
Thanks again for the replies.If there are any more suggestions on how to pick up 10-12 fps,I would appreciate it.Arrow speed itself doesn't matter to me but the arrow drop does.If I have to get used to it,I will.Thanks again.
10-12 fps is quite a bit; you'd have to go to a lighter total arrow weight, a new string isn't going to do it. Longbows, especially if the one you have is more of an old-school design, pull differently than curves, too, so you may need to shoot it for a while to get used to it. The more heel-down hand position and different draw-force curve may have you pulling a little shorter than you did on the Widow, at least till you get used to the bow more. I never could shoot longbows well, as I tend to use a high-wrist hand position, and they feel odd to me. I love the feel and looks of them, though, and if you like the bow, I'd encourage you not to let the graph sway you too much. You might start to draw it further as you get more in tune with it.
I use a twelve strand on my dryad longbow and I'm pulling about twenty pounds more at a longer draw length, you sure don't need anything more than that. It won't make up all that speed difference but it might be quieter. My bow sure isn't loud. And that's the strand count that comes stock on my bow.
Are you a gap shooter? Do you need the speed for your gaps? Just wondering. If you are shooting instinctive, the arrow drop shouldn't bother you after you've shot the bow a while, you just need to imprint the trajectory into your brain. I could see it really messing with you at first, though, especially if you've switched from a much faster bow. I'll shoot low the first few shots if I switch to a heavier point, but it doesn't take too long to get the sight picture back. I think you just need to decide if quiet is worth more to you than speed. I sounds like the noise of that Widow really bothered you. 15fps won't matter if the deer isn't there because the bow was too loud.
With the same riser and sand amo length, my ILF longbow limbs seem to shoot faster than my recurve limbs, same manufacturer and almost same material (black glass on my recurve and clear glass on the lb). Never chronoed the combos but the difference was noticeable by human eyes.
For one thing though, the longbow limbs were initially designed on the 19 inch riser. On my 17 inch morrison riser they picked up quite some preload and speed and pull even harder than my recurve limbs. The riser to me seems to be more of a longbow friendly design because it is a bit on the straight side. So imho the geometry also matters here.
On the other hand, the same string slaps my lb limbs MUCH louder which I don't understand even today.
Forgot to mention the on limbs measure only 2# heavier than my recurve limbs..
A skinny string might be worth 8 or so fps. They have made a noticeable difference on every bow I've tried them on. Practically speaking, though, even at 157 fps, you've got more than enough for any whitetail. You'll just need to shoot that bow enough to mentally adjust to the trajectory.
I've found that it's best for me to just stick with one bow during hunting season for that very reason. I don't want to have to think about which bow I'm shooting at the moment, or if I need to aim differently.
QuoteIf there are any more suggestions on how to pick up 10-12 fps,I would appreciate it.
Unless you are going from a way overbuilt string, don't expect miraculous gains just from changing strings. There are no magic strings, just like there are no magic bows, broadheads, arrows, etc.
A properly built string can make a big difference...in shock, noise, and over-all feel. Lighter draw weights seem to benefit more from lighter strings performance-wise.
Proper nock fit may give you a couple of fps vs. way too tight.
A good, clean release can give you a couple fps. or more vs. a sloppy one.
Pulling through your release--this one trick could make up the difference by itself:
http://www.safarituff.com/trophies.html (bottom of the page)
Shooting the bow and getting used to it will make the biggest difference. My selfbows are slower than my longbows or recurves, but I have shot better scores at tournaments with selfbows because I was practicing more with them.
Sorry for the double post, and miss spelled words....I HATE posting from my cell phone!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by Archie:
I think that you ought scale the bows at the length that you draw them, and then post their respective weights here so we can all see! Measure from the nock point to the deepest part of the grip, for consistency.
I think Archie hit the nail on the head, and that's where your discrepancy is.... just because a bow is marked 50@28" doesn't mean it actually is 50 @ 28".
measure both bows the same from the deepest part of the grip & add 1.75" That is what your draw length is....
There are HUGE differences in bow performance across the board. Long bows can be just as high in performance as recurve bows if they are designed properly..... Saying recuvre bows are typically faster than long bows is like saying cars are typically faster than trucks.... It's ridiculous....
Well, fast cars are typically faster than fast trucks (wink).