So guys this is a topic that has been top of mind lately, and I'm wrestling with the issue of success and broadhead failure.
So I've taken animals with zwickey deltas, magnus I, magnus vented 4blade, razorcaps, magnus stingers, woodsman, stos, and bear razorheads. They all work, and as they say "dead animals don't lie."
My issue is that when a head does it's job, but is not usable again is it broadhead failure or not. I want to think that i should be able to use a head over and over until i decide to retire it, but i seem to be expriencing more instances of a head breaking, coming apart, bending and such.
And then to go not too far off topic, but these are good heads, so how the heck do these mechanicals and replacement blades ever stay together?
I was reading Danny's thread on the new RMSG Cutthroat head, and it seems they too are trying to address broadhead breaking issues, and i like where they are going, But i don't want a 200+ grn.
So do i have realistic expectations and an accurate job description for my broadheads, or have i set my expectations too high?
Any suggestions on great flying, durable, consistently reusable 150 grn head?
VPA
DDave
German Kinetic (Standard - 1 1/8" or XL - 1 1/2"). Thats all I use and have only broken one out of a gazillion shots; good shots, bad shots, misses, rocks, stumps!
Plus, you won't find a sharper out-of-the-box head anywhere!
Bisch
I have killed 4 deer this year with the same Grizzly 3 blade Instinct head.
With the huge selection of carbon shafts it is relatively easy to shoot a 10 grain per pound of draw weight arrow with the heavier head. This head is 200 grains and then I add an aluminum broad head adapter that is 42 grains for a total head weight of 242 grains.
I know this is 100 grains heavier than you wanted but this is working very well for me...
Benjy
VPA is a great head. But a 150 grain Stinger is hard to beat. Not as tough but the best flying broad head I have ever tried. Bill
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
VPA
DDave
Yep, what he said. :thumbsup:
I'm impressed with Simmons....
Rodd
The thing I like about the stingers is the guarantee if they are damaged just send back for a replacement.
vpa gets my vote
I have never had an ACE let me down. They are simple, tough and easy to sharpen. I get great penetration, have broken bones with them, and once cleaned up are ready for more. My buddy, while hog hunting once, shot a hog clean through with one of my arrows. The hog ran off and he picked up the arrow. After a short track finished off the hog with another pass through shot into the dirt. He gave me my arrow back and the head was still sharp.
I love ACE broad-heads.
Bob.
Abowyer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
Many viable choices.
No matter how tough a head is you will never get them all back. If you want a tougher head buy one. They are out there. Most the vented type heads are more prone to bend or break. Go with a solid model. With solid comes more weight though. Its a tradeoff.
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/Kopper1013/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpseb8add45.jpg) (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/Kopper1013/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpseb8add45.jpg.html)
Posted this pic in another topic, but these are grizzlysticks samurai single bevel heads at 150grs. Love these heads, expensive but the steel is thick and tough. I like to see the animal of rock that breaks them up to a point I can't put an edge back on them.
Question one, if the head fails in the process of doing its job, to me it is still a failure and I would look at the circumstances that caused it. As for a strong head, there are many options. The Ace Standard in 145 or 160 gr is virtually indestructible, Grizzlies are tough as are VPA's. I would not hesitate to shoot a Zwickey at anything.
I kinda agree with you fletcher. If the head failed at any point then it may have been able to do the job better. OTOH, todds list of broadheads used to take various animals is longer than my list of animals taken (big game) :)
The Ace 145 worked very well for me and when weighed, the differences from head to head were only slight. Others I've weighed have varied a lot!
The only animal I ever took with a Magnus (125 two blade) resulted in a bent blade from contact with a bone. Also resulted in a dead deer so take that FWIW!
Steel Force Hellfire 4 blade at 150 grains!! Never had "broadhead failure", even after a shoulder blade hit. I have been blessed to have harvested several nice animals with them. 3 Rivers sells them.
Quote
"...but I seem to be experiencing more instances of a head breaking, coming apart, bending and such."To me this constitutes failure but killing an animal successfully is not...obviously. The heads you mention should be able to be used over and over again.
Kris
I guess I could elaborate. If the head fails with a good hit or on light bone like a deer rib or thin part of the shoulder blade I would be looking for another head. If I mess up and hit solid bone, rock or an osage branch I can accept that the head bends or a weld gives. So far, I've not had a broadhead fail when I didn't think it should have.
I consider a kill as the Broadhead doing it's job....
I think of them as expendable....I go beaver hunting and If I get to use the whole arrow twice, I'm happy. Heck, I went thru 8 arrows in one night....
I've killed two deer this year with a glue on, 125 grain MA-II... made by Magnus. On the second deer the cedar arrow got broken and I removed the head and put it on another shaft. Touched it up a bit and it is still shaving hair.
I had a Magnus Stinger, 125, break in half... but was replaced for free. Great warranty... good head. It struck a large elk in the shoulder bone which was not the BHs fault (mine).
Lots of good heads without breaking the bank.
My worst problem is losing them!
My vote is YES... if the BH is unusable after taking game, it failed. I expect better.
There are some really, really tough heads most of which have been mentioned but I just don't think you will find indestructible.
The toughest head we sell IMO which has not been mentioned are the Eclipse 2 blade glue on heads.
QuoteOriginally posted by bowtough:
Abowyer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
X2
Abowyer x 3 Just a great head!
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/Bow/aug2008004.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/Bow/aug2008004.jpg.html)
I have one head that has killed an elk and mountain goat and looks like and feels (with a wee touch up on the edges that it is out of the box still.
(look up silver flame -originals)
German Kinetics all the way, expensive but like you say, when you can use them for many years, well worth it.
210 grains
QuoteOriginally posted by mike g:
I consider a kill as the Broadhead doing it's job....
I think of them as expendable....I go beaver hunting and If I get to use the whole arrow twice, I'm happy. Heck, I went thru 8 arrows in one night....
I think i would use a fishing set up on hunting beavers.... save on arrows big time...
I think a guy has gotta draw a line somewhere when you are talking about pass though arrows hitting rocks in the dirt. Even the best made broadheads won't put up with too much of that.
Now when they start folding up hitting a shoulder blade or a leg bone, you may want to consider sticking with good solid 3 blades like VPA or the new Instinct design Bill Dunn is selling. Or good solid 2 blades with thicker steel and a tanto tip grind.
I had great success with the original woodsman broadheads, but i've folded up a few too.
Broadhead failure is not something I worry about.In 40 years of big game hunting I have never had one bend or break. I mainly use Zwickey Deltas or Magnus I and now some No Mercy. I have a couple still stuck in deer vertebrae and have broken leg bones with them. I have a Delta on a cedar shaft right now that has killed 3 deer and I am looking for another this weekend.
I have a single STOS that has been through three deer. The first one I had to dig out of the roots of a tree that was behind the deer. Sharpens right back up after each use.
I had a batch of blue painted Zwicky Eskimo II heads that several have popped apart at the spot welds. I use them on small game so it could be a stump or the rocks behind a bunny or squirrel. Even those I just silver solder back together and they're ready once again. But they are relegated to small game bacause of the several failures. My Rib-Tecs at that time shrugged off the same treatment with no failures.
I would consider a broadhead that fails, even though the deer dies, a weak head. Most time my wood arrows are broken - that's expected. But I also expect the head to be reuseable. Otherwise I don't really know it can be trusted if it strikes a large bone in the deer. Maybe it was just luck I hit the deer where I did and a bit off the head would have let me down? It should hold up and put all it's energy into splitting and cutting instead of breaking up.
Thanks for all the input and suggestions fellas, i ordered some Abowyer Bonehead lites today along with some 35 grn titanium adapters. Completed they will be 155grns.
We'll see what happens, but they look beefy enough to take a beating and keep on kill'n.
KirkII
There's a lot of Regs on hunting Beaver....
No gafs, No line attached to arrow etc....
I cannot imagine a grizzly broadhead coming apart in the line of duty..
I had the same problem with Zwickey's, separating at the welds. I know thousands of people swear by them. However, every time I look at one my mind goes back 25 years back and I see six new heads with failed welds. Therefore, I have zero confidence in Zwickey's and will not use them.
I have never had a failure with a glue on Eclipse (haven't tried their WareWolf?), Grizzly, or VPA. The 145 grain Eclipse with bleeders is my prefered head, but I do have a couple of the new Instinct's in the quiver this year that I'd rate on par with the VPA.
I've never destroyed a Zwickey Delta. Have several with multiple kills to their credit. But thats all I've ever used.
Too many variables to think that any head can survive anything. I hunt where there are a lot of rocks. Tough on heads. Shoulder bones do significant damage. All kinds of things will ruin or damage a head. Just the way it is.
QuoteOriginally posted by Walt Francis:
I had the same problem with Zwickey's, separating at the welds. I know thousands of people swear by them. However, every time I look at one my mind goes back 25 years back and I see six new heads with failed welds. Therefore, I have zero confidence in Zwickey's and will not use them.
Walt just an FYI Zwickey started copper brazing their heads about 10 years ago, they are much, much stronger than the Zwickey heads of old.
Eclipse are awesome too though and IMO the toughest head we sell.
The most durable broadhead I have found is the Woodsman Elite or VPA machined heads. I have shot a buck and a sow this year, both total pass thru, both arrows unbent (2117 aluminum) with vanes.
I have washed the arrows off, put them on the spin testor and evaluated the BH. I just touched up the heads and both are back in my quiver ready to go. The Woodsman elite, while pricey, is the most durable.
If this is a concern I would avoid any BH with aluminum feral and never use the aluminum adapters (screw in) adapters that fit inside the BH. Too WEAK. This is my experience. I have seen BH failure that ruins penetration. The BH is the most important part of your bowhunting equipment.
Keep'em sharp, very sharp...
Jeff
QuoteOriginally posted by Walt Francis:
I had the same problem with Zwickey's, separating at the welds. I know thousands of people swear by them. However, every time I look at one my mind goes back 25 years back and I see six new heads with failed welds. Therefore, I have zero confidence in Zwickey's and will not use them.
X2 They may have improved but there are just better BH out there today to use. I am growing to be a big fan of the three blade Woodman elite.
;)
Cutthroat by RMSGear. I piece machined head.
Who came up with the standard that boadheads should last forever? If it kills as it should then it worked. Over the years I've had heads with multiple kills, others a bit tweeked or bent after one kill. They didnt "fail" but were no longer serviceable. There is a difference. 750gr arrows out of 60+ bows are hard on any broadhead.................
QuoteOriginally posted by hvyhitter:
Who came up with the standard that boadheads should last forever? If it kills as it should then it worked. Over the years I've had heads with multiple kills, others a bit tweeked or bent after one kill. They didnt "fail" but were no longer serviceable. There is a difference. 750gr arrows out of 60+ bows are hard on any broadhead.................
I do not think that is a standard, by any means. Just look at what is out there. But why would anyone prefer disposable broadheads? Or one that will bend easily over a rigid one. Today innovators have taken the idea of manufacturing that broadhead that you always wanted, into reality. When you have a broadhead that is very rigid on the cutting tip, more energy gets it done. Durability in design, materials, and manufacturing method have created the best broadheads that there have ever been on the market. They are also the most pricey! We also have the worst broadhead designs in existence today and in use. I have seen broadheads that failed, welded and popped apart on impact. That is no good. Most will not do that, but with a BH that is made of one piece, no welds to break. One less thing to concern yourself with, the most important piece of equipment in taking a game animal in my opinion.
I'd say the arrow is a much weaker point to be worried about.
If somebody wants a really tough head, I'd give the nod to a 160 gr Ace Standard. I don't think you could kill one with a hammer. Heavy steel, triple thick laminated tip, spot welded and copper brazed. They get sharp and are about the most economical quality heads available.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fletcher:
If somebody wants a really tough head, I'd give the nod to a 160 gr Ace Standard. I don't think you could kill one with a hammer.
:biglaugh:
I've seen plenty of BH's fail; Zwickey on a water buff [recovered due to a .375 HH], Woodsman on a big hog- folded, a short replaceable blade head dull on contact with heavy/muddy elk hide required followup to put him out of his misery.
IMO, A strong head of good steel is worth the $$
I consider hunting arrows and broadheads to be disposable. Usually I get them back but do long as they do the intended job, I can live with replacing it with another.
I'm with you. I don't think it's to much to ask for a broadhead to be used multiple times. As much as we have to pay for these things anymore they should kill multiple animals IMO.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheels2:
I consider hunting arrows and broadheads to be disposable. Usually I get them back but do long as they do the intended job, I can live with replacing it with another.
That is my outlook on it as well.
I had a BH fail today; 2 blade hit a big hog square in the leg bone. He limped away. Quality BH was curled up like a pretzel. Under certain circumstances they all will fail so I don't blame the head and won't post the name or pic. I have seen fancy stainless heads shatter in similar circumstances. Just something that comes with the territory.
ACE... Fly's great, tough as they come, great steel that sharpens easily... all that and economical to boot
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/12222011.jpg)
The Ace "LaClair Lacerator"
(http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small78966657.JPG)
After considerable research and input I've ordered some abowyer bonehead lites, Abowyer Brown Bears, and eclipse. I think i've solved my problems with these three head choices.
VPA for me. Would love to try German kinetics but they don't make glue ons, do they?