Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: KentuckyTJ on October 08, 2014, 09:38:00 AM
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After many years of shooting whitetail deer with stick and string I have come to a conclusion about deer reactions after they are shot.
This year I have shot two deer. One with a two blade head and the other with a three blade head. Seeing two very different reactions of those deer got me to thinking and reflecting on a deers reaction to an arrow going through it from all my past experience.
Note: No big bone was hit on either deer and both were unalarmed at the time of the shot. Also I've always used a cut on contact type head. No Muzzy type pointed heads.
The first deer was shot with a two blade head. The deer bounded off rather nonchalantly and walked off after its initial 30 yard bound. He made it about 50 more yards. The second deer was shot with a three blade head and after the arrow hit her she tore out of there as fast and she could and didn't change pace until her nose buried in the dirt 90 yards away.
This started me thinking back the other day to all the deer I have taken and their reactions afterwards. For years I have switched back and forth between two and three blade heads so I have also been pondering deer reactions after the shot and reflecting what head I was using.
I have pictures of almost every kill I have made over the years since digital cameras have come out and by looking at those pictures I can remember exactly every event of the hunt by viewing them and the deers reaction after the shot. Going by this info I have drawn a conclusion that deer shot with two blade heads in general do not bolt out of there like their tales are on fire and the ones shot with a three blade actually always have for me.
I think this must be due to the blunt force trauma difference between these two head types on its entry.
Opinions, your findings?
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TJ... I've found basically the same thing. What I wonder about is how long they live between the two.
If a deer takes off like a scalded dog and does that for 90 yards and piles up on the run, how many seconds is that.
On the other hand if the deer wanders off 80 yards at a more relaxed pace how long?
I love thinking about this stuff.
And thanks for fixing the picture of my doe. :thumbsup:
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I agree, at least in part. As I have stated before, I feel that deer are eaten by everythng, so their natural reaction is to get outta Dodge, fast.
If a large noise goes off (gun, noisy bow), they run, if something hits them and there is minor trauma (no bones hit except maybe ribs), they react and often jump run a bit and stop to look if it is chasing them or even what the heck it was in the first place. That is why being quiet after the shot is a good idea.
If there is major trauma, a bone broken, especially leg bone, they get outta Dodge.
I have seen this time after time. Although I have had experiences with three blade heads that did not cause the flight routine (low and tight to the elbow), I can see how they might react more to the three blade than the two, especially if the point of the three blade is not especially sharp (don't confuse pointed with sharp).
just my thoughts.
CHarlie, the doe I just killed did the scalded dog routine (from a two blade hit, albeit from the ground at 6 paces) and from time of hit to time of hearing her crash could not have been 5 seconds, but she went 80 - 90 yards. Then rascals are fast.
I imagine her heart was pumping way more blood that way than if she calmly walked away.
Chuckc
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Over the past couple years, when no large bones were hit my findings are pretty similar to yours. Especially with narrow 2 blade heads the deer usually only run a short distance, look around, and usually fall over right there. 3 blades or wide 2 blades are similar to your finding where they clearly are dying on a dead run such as finding them wrapped around a tree or piled up on a briar thicket.
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I've shot a bunch of deer with 160g Snuffers that have hopped up, looked around, and walked off.
I killed an eland this July with an Abowyer Brown Bear. It hopped, looked around,walked off, and fell over 30 yards away. I also killed a big Waterbuck with an Abowyer Whitetal (slightly larger 2 blade). It bucked and I have never seen an animal run so FAST after a hit and he tumbled hard after 100 yards.
I think every hit/animal is different and two or three blade matters not so much.
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Maybe a matter of bow poundage? State your poundage. I shoot 50lb bows. A slower arrow would cause more ft/lbs to penetrate a hide than a faster arrow.
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I always used 3 blade with wheelbows, and although last year was my first year trad hunting and first time using 2 blade head...
I tend to agree with your theroy, the deer I shot last year acted so calmly after the shot and walked away, I was sure I missed, Till he started dancing.
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A ton of variables to consider. How sharp, arrow flight, bow noise, speed, how alert or relaxed the animal was, the animal in general (been hunted hard or never saw a hunter), etc. etc. etc.
I haven't killed nearly enough deer to begin to figure it out. In the places I hunt, deer pretty much turn inside-out if a mouse farts.
Guess I need to do a lot more research.... :D
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A few years back Fred Asbell had a article in Traditional Bowhunter about the better blood trail of 4 headed broadheads. So, I tried Magnus four blades instead of two. I double lung shot a doe at 12 yards. She took off like I had slapped her on the butt. I had never gotten that reaction from two blades. No ribs cut. I was shocked. I took out the bleeder blades and have not gone back. I'm now shooting single bevel grizzlys and am very pleased. I shoot bows in the 55lb. range.
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Non cut on contact (muzzy 3 blade) have always ran hard. Shot two with VPA 3 blade. Relaxed one wandered off alert one bolted. Gonna try a two blade this year.
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I use two blade heads almost EXCLUSIVELY, for nearly fifteen years now.
I use the same bow that I have for the past 16 years, drawing around 75lbs@29 1/2".
It is routine for me to watch a deer fall that I shoot.
The usual reaction is a jump/kick, a few bounds, slowing to a "j" hook to watch its backtrail, and down they go.
I have had them tear off and run till they drop, but it is way more common to have them stop and look back...UNLESS I am using a three blade.
I do not remember having a mild reaction to being hit with a three blade.
Thunderhead 160, Thunderhead 125, Rocky Mountain "Ironhead", and Muzzy 3 blades are the ones I have tried.
I had the lighter Snuffer three blade crush when I hit a shoulder blade...never tried the heavier built Snuffer.
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Thanks for this post. I have yet to get my first deer and find this to be very interesting. I have achieved great flight with a variety of broadheads but, for some reason I prefer a good 2 blade. I think I will just keep going this way and see what happens. :thumbsup:
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TJ - Thanks for sharing your observations. These are the kinds of posts that have an incredible amount of value. Well this, and anything Charlie posts. :D :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Maybe a matter of bow poundage? State your poundage. I shoot 50lb bows. A slower arrow would cause more ft/lbs to penetrate a hide than a faster arrow.
Mostly 70-77# for the big Snuffers and 60+ for the Aboyers but I don't think that is it...I think every animal, situation, and hit is unique.
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It is fun to think about these things...I agree and do it myself. But a major problem we have with conclusions like this it is they are still anecdotal...be it this conversation, scents, camo pattern etc. It is near impossible to control the variables to get clear cause-effect.
I am with Steve O on this one, but fun conversation.
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I've only killed deer with 2 blades, Magnus mostly from 50-55# bows. Trying my old Woodsmans this year.
I've watched 2 deer (relaxed for MI does) run dead into trees and crash. The others bounced off like I'd missed and died within 100 yards.
I hope to report back on what happens with the 3 blades.
Great topic to go with all the kill threads. Congrats everybody! :thumbsup: Good hunting!
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Great thought TJ. I haven't killed enough animals to make an accurate assessment. I have cut myself several times being in construction and what I've noticed is a super sharp blade doesn't hurt for quite sometime. But what you're saying sure makes sense.
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I have shot three deer with two blades Magnus, two of the deer trotted off and died within 30 yards, the other deer ran about 100 yards.
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I agree 100%, TJ.....
killed a lot of critters over the last 45 years that support that belief
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I've had many reactions to two edge heads (one blade). A couple years ago I had a doe hop and then turn around at the hit and look back away from me at the arrow that passed through her lungs and was stuck in a root . . . so I put a second one in her and she dropped not five feet from he first hit. I have also had them take off at a dead run.
Could be the bow sound, the fact they were already alerted but not yet reacting, or the sound of the arrow strike.
This year I am trying three blades/edges for the first time. We'll see if I, hopefully, get a chance at testing one out.
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I shot STOS heads for two years and was fortunate to take 7 deer with them. All but one were shot through the ribs(the other extremely tight and low behind the shoulder). All of those deer reacted just about in the same manner. Very unconcerned, a couple went back to feeding before giving up the ghost. Those BH were like razors.
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Great thread. It got me thinking I have shot 4 bucks with traditional bows. The first 3 were with 3 blade heads ( 1- Muzzy 3 blade. 2- Snuffers). The last one was with a 2 blade Zephyr Sasquatch. First 3 ran between 60-80 yds scalded dog escape. Last one was with a 2 blade zephyr sasquatch and he just trotted off 30 yds and fell over. As a side note 1 of the first 3 were called in and so was the 4th.
I had never even thought of broadhead blade number being a factor. I have harvested a number of does that have had different reactions. Most ran off quickly.
I guess I'll just get out and do some more field testing.
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Maybe you are onto something, I don't know. I do think that how sharp the broad head is has something to do with it. I also know that I have shot a number of deer with three blade heads, snuffers, we see woods and and more recently VPAs. I have had deer both tear out of the area, but I killed a deer two years ago as he was walking by at 8 yards, he simply trotted off and fell over dead 60 yards later. I think shot placement has a lot to do with it also.
David
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I have had them bolt with both,. I cannot remember one not bolting with a three but I remember quite a few showing no great reaction to a two blade at all. Threes always seem to touch some bone and that may be the difference. Just a though though. Very interesting and unique thread.
God bless, Steve
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I've noticed a huge difference between tapered COC heads and the chisel point heads especially the ones that are not a tapered shape [short heads] much more animal reaction with the short heads and sometimes even a "kerplunk" sound- they know they have been hit. Not so with the tapered COC heads.
Its much easier to find an animal that walks off vs running at 30MPH. And the guys that use those mech heads- forget it- the animal looks like it is trying to leave its skin behind. The vast majority of my kills were with a compound...I haven't enough of a track record with 2 vs 3 bl and my recurve...
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I believe two blades penetrate deeper, and shock less, but if you blow through deer with ease (Heavy draw weight and heavy arrow) i would go with a three blade just because of the much better blood trail. Hit a big buck a couple weeks ago, right on top of him at 10 yards, and hit him high, he stumbled like he was going down, but didn't, and ran out of my life. Penetration was poor, and no blood. I feel I must have short drawn my bow at the steep angle, and worrying about bow limb hitting treestand. I think had I been shooting a 2 blade this would have turned out different. Good points TJ, you got me to thinkin'......
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I don't know about the difference between death times of deer that run hard and pile up vs. those that bound a few steps then wander off and lay down to die, but my grandfather shot a buck several years ago with a crossbow (he is handicapped and has had several surgeries on his shoulders) but anyway he shoots zwickey delta 2 blades and he shot this buck at about 15 yards and it jumped in the brush for a second or so then walked back out and starting feeding again. He had taken the shot perfectly broadside and thought he had missed. He was able to reload and shot the deer again quartering away and this time the broadhead buried in the offside shoulder. Well as I'm sure you all can guess the deer lit out of there like a bat out of hades. When my grandfather found it though he was shocked to find that there was the arrow that he had shot the deer with quartering away still in the deer as well as and entry and exit hole tight behind the front shoulder where the first arrow had passed straight through. If he hadn't shot the deer the second time it would have bled to death right there where he shot it. Keep in mind that these shots were with Razor and I mean razor sharp broadheads, and I think that this fact along with the fact that no bones were hit on the first shot were the most important factor. Deer hear limbs fall and other noises all the time in the woods. So while noise is important as long as a bow is not overly loud I think shot placement and sharpness of broadhead contribute more to an animals reaction to being shot. Think about when you are shaving with a brand new razor and you knick yourself, often you don't even feel it you just notice you're bleeding. Sorry to get so long winded about this.
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interesting theory?? I have had similar results with both style heads and think it has more to do with other factors than head style or blade numbers but there is merit to the potential of a less "shocking" hit from a low pro two blade head. I just feel most confident with three or more blades out front.
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I have only killed a few with 3 blade heads. For all the 2 blade kills, they have reacted any number of ways. Some have me scratching my head to this day. So it makes me think that the number of blades is not an issue. Something else is at play maybe.
We will all agree that SHARP has much to do with the reaction I am sure. A sharp head can pass thru with little reaction at all, and bleed em out quick.
I have pondered this question myself and I don't know.
I try to hit them in the vitals and then pay close attention to what happens next. Watch them until down or out of sight and the Listen for that last sound. Stay put and stay quiet, and look/listen for 10-15mins at least.
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The big difference I have noticed over the years is how the deer react if the arrow stays in them. Back many moons ago when I shot bows from 65-80# I always had pass throughs and the deer would walk away most times. Now that I shoot in the low 40# range the arrow is usually carried by the deer and they run like a scalded dog until the arrow falls out. I shoot both 2 and 3 blades with the same reaction.
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What you guys are seeing is a direct correlation between frontal area and wasted energy "punching" the deer. The greater the number of blades or the wider the blade, the more area that impacts at once, spreading out the force and eating up your kinetic energy. A narrow two blade head is the most efficient choice, and that's why they tend to act like nothing hit them-all your energy goes to penetration, forgoing the shockwave generated with wider heads.
(http://forums.bit-tech.net/picture.php?albumid=2497&pictureid=40471)
The diagram should be self explanatory, but I'll write more when I get this keyboard working.
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Another issue to consider is just how sharp your broadhead is-the sharper it is, the smaller area presented. If you've ever been cut and it was so sharp you didn't feel it immediately, then you've seen this principle at work.
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This is a very interesting thread.....
I had an experience last year that really makes me think about this....I shot at a doe next to the feeder but didn't pick a spot. I hit the feeder leg....with a super sharp two blade...and it penetrated.
The doe did her best to kick all of her legs off, finally got her feet under her and then she hit the feeder....while the arrow was still making noise...vibratin and all...
Learned a valuable lesson about remembering to pick a spot...and penetration.
Sorry. I remembered that and had to laugh. Now back to the thread.....
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A flair for the obvious !! Just kidding...
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I've seen lots of deer shot with both styles and I surely have not seen a difference I would want to rely on. I've seen way too many explosive reactions from deer shot with two-blade heads.
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125gr Snuffer mounted on a lodge pole shaft out of a 60# at my draw Widow is the only deer I've shot that hadn't bolted at the shot. She jumped to the side then walked off and looked back and fell over. Taken two with Simmons Tiger Sharks one 50# and one @57# and both took off, but not for very long! Those are my only two 2blade deer. Rest were Woodsmans or Muzzys.
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I think is like Steve O says...every situation is different. I have used 3 blade heads a few times, never seen much difference.
I have only had 1 deer just stand around until it tipped over. The rest have all run off. Some, not very far, but they have all attempted an escape from the area.
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I shot a buck with a two blade grizzly single bevel and he bucked like a bronco ran about 30 yards and stopped to look back. He started to wobble and bolted again. The other buck standing next to him didn't know what happened and stood there looking for 10 min.
I had a another one with a muzzy years ago actually just stood and licked wound until he got woozy and then walked a couple steps and fell over.
Don't know what to learn from this except I don't think it matters since there are so many variables to pin down any one as the cause.
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My take on it is if you cut myself with a sharp knife as opposed to jabbing myself with a screw driver. I will react more to the screw driver.
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Originally posted by joe ashton:
My take on it is if you cut myself with a sharp knife as opposed to jabbing myself with a screw driver. I will react more to the screw driver.
That does make sense...