I have watched the videos of how a high EFOC arrow will SOME HOW travel farther than an arrow with a lower FOC. But, how in the world is this possible?
I'm not smart enough to know the answer. All hocus pocus to me. Something to do with the weight up front pulling the arrow instead of the weight distribution pushing it (I think). I am waiting to learn as well.
Research flight shooting, I am guessing whatever they use is the way to go for farthest flight.
Chuckc
part of it is more efficient flight by getting the arrow out of paradox quicker.
...but you really need to pay attention to the vids as some of them have heavier arrows that can/somethimes also fly farther.
All things being equal - it doesn't. If mass, velocity, gravity and EFFICIENCY OF FLIGHT are the same it can't. But all things aren't equal and the issue is the efficiency of the arrow's flight. EFOC and UEFOC with a perfectly spined arrow is a much more efficient projectile than an arrow that isn't tuned. In addition, in order to overcome many of the issues with an arrow that isn't perfectly spined, many go with very big and long fletching with a high level of helical - both of those items alone will take away from the efficiency. For many folks that's OK because we realize that within the ranges that we normally shoot, we aren't going to notice enough of a difference to make the change.
In my case I recently went from EFOC of 23% to UEFOC of 31.6% and everybody I shoot with comments on my arrow flight IF I do everything right with my form, release, etc.
I am a self admitted arrow/tuning geek so for me it's a fun exersize. For other folks it's not - to each his own.
my reason for asking is, I am about to change arrow set ups. My current arrows are just too heavy for my liking. They are Beman MFX .340's that are 11.2 gpi which puts my arrow weight right about 575 on a #53 bow. I know everyone will say, "that's great!", but I for one do NOT like a heavy arrow. I like my arrows right about 9 gpp. and this is closer to 11(10.8).
I am wanting to swap to an arrow that is 7.2 gpi which will drop my about 120 grains, arrow alone. Then I will add a little more weight and get to exactly 9gpp, about 475 grains.
and that would put my about FOC closer to 20, which is now about 14.
Do you guys think this will have a substantial impact on trajectory?
QuoteOriginally posted by Pete McMiller:
All things being equal - it doesn't. If mass, velocity, gravity and EFFICIENCY OF FLIGHT are the same it can't. But all things aren't equal and the issue is the efficiency of the arrow's flight. EFOC and UEFOC with a perfectly spined arrow is a much more efficient projectile than an arrow that isn't tuned. In addition, in order to overcome many of the issues with an arrow that isn't perfectly spined, many go with very big and long fletching with a high level of helical - both of those items alone will take away from the efficiency. For many folks that's OK because we realize that within the ranges that we normally shoot, we aren't going to notice enough of a difference to make the change.
In my case I recently went from EFOC of 23% to UEFOC of 31.6% and everybody I shoot with comments on my arrow flight IF I do everything right with my form, release, etc.
I am a self admitted arrow/tuning geek so for me it's a fun exersize. For other folks it's not - to each his own.
Pete,
Can you tell me your arrow set up? the more details, the better!!1 :bigsmyl:
shooting an arrow that's about 82% of your previous weight will make a difference ...but not so much you couldn't get used to it quickly.
I am thinking it would be fine and whatever it does you would adjust.
CHuckC
Daniel,
Bow is a 60#@28" 66" R/D - 8 strand D10 string. My draw length is 27.5"
Arrow is a Victory VForce HV V6 300 cut to 29.625" + 100 grain brass insert. Either 300 grain field tips or 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak. Assembled with JB Weld. Fletchings are 3" A&A style (I just cut the back end off of a 4" parabolic at 90 degrees).
Total arrow wt. varies a bit from 648 to 653 grains probably dependant on how much fletching glue and JB Weld I used.
I tried the VForce HV 350's first but despite the results of other folks, I just couldn't get them to fly right unless I went all the way down to 175 grain field tips. Since my goal was UEFOC they didn't have enough tip weight.
Daniel,
My bow weight is 54#@28" and I shoot MFX 340's out of my 3 piece ACS longbow. These arrows do end up "heavier" and I use them when I want a setup over 600 grains. Lately though, like yourself, I have gone lighter, 500 - 575 gpi.
Try the 340 Axis shafts that are unwrapped w/o wood graphics, they are nice compromise at 9.3 grains/inch. Maybe not as light as you would like yet...try the V6 300 or 350 shafts from Victory...that is what Pete (300's) is using. Pete and I have great discussions Re: subj.
Any number of really good combinations one can arrive at using these excellent components. I am always experimenting and always finding out new things that keep it forever interesting for me.
Kris
QuoteOriginally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,
Bow is a 60#@28" 66" R/D - 8 strand D10 string. My draw length is 27.5"
Arrow is a Victory VForce HV V6 300 cut to 29.625" + 100 grain brass insert. Either 300 grain field tips or 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak. Assembled with JB Weld. Fletchings are 3" A&A style (I just cut the back end off of a 4" parabolic at 90 degrees).
Total arrow wt. varies a bit from 648 to 653 grains probably dependant on how much fletching glue and JB Weld I used.
I tried the VForce HV 350's first but despite the results of other folks, I just couldn't get them to fly right unless I went all the way down to 175 grain field tips. Since my goal was UEFOC they didn't have enough tip weight.
Pete,
Seems like you are the guy i am supposed to be talking to. ;)
So my question is,
do you think i should get the 350's or the 300's for a BW that is #53@28, i draw to 28.5?
I guess the question would be, how much FOC really helps?
Would you possibly have a full length .350 I could buy from you do try out?
I notice that you are still over 10gpp. I wouldn't mind going up to about 9.5 or so, but don't care at all to be at 10 gpp.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kris:
Daniel,
My bow weight is 54#@28" and I shoot MFX 340's out of my 3 piece ACS longbow. These arrows do end up "heavier" and I use them when I want a setup over 600 grains. Lately though, like yourself, I have gone lighter, 500 - 575 gpi.
Try the 340 Axis shafts that are unwrapped w/o wood graphics, they are nice compromise at 9.3 grains/inch. Maybe not as light as you would like yet...try the V6 300 or 350 shafts from Victory...that is what Pete (300's) is using. Pete and I have great discussions Re: subj.
Any number of really good combinations one can arrive at using these excellent components. I am always experimenting and always finding out new things that keep it forever interesting for me.
Kris
Chris,
If you need some MFX's with the wood grain, let me know. I have 12 that I am trying to get rid of. I also have some of the plain black ones, but even they come in at 10.2gpi.
I know they no longer make the MFX shafts, so I could be your man to get a good supply! :) .
I am just wanting a lighter arrow for better trajectory. My arrows are great out to 20, but past that, things begin to drop off quickly. Not to mention, I believe any game in North america can be killed with a 450 grain arrow. :)
Daniel,
Yes, I am around 11 gpi but that is better than the 12 I had last year. My goal was two fold, an arrow with UEFOC and an arrow the was at or over 650 grains. According to Dr. Ashby, 650 grains is the threshold to guarantee heavy bone breaching. This is primarily an arrow for an upcoming moose hunt - though the arrow I shot last year penetrated a cow moose fully.
If I were you I would try the Vforce HV 350's as I think the 300s would be too stiff. The 300's are 7.2 gpi while the 350s are 6.8 gpi. I have never tried the 400s.
Does increase FOC help? Yes in both penetration and arrow flight.
Certainly a 450 grain arrow can kill anything in NA - so can a 243 but neither is optimal for the largest game.
I am reluctant to get rid of any Victory shafts at the moment - I am expecting a new bow any week now and I think the half a doz. 350's are going to work great for it. If you shop around you can find them for a good price easily cheaper than Carbon Express.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,
Yes, I am around 11 gpi but that is better than the 12 I had last year. My goal was two fold, an arrow with UEFOC and an arrow the was at or over 650 grains. According to Dr. Ashby, 650 grains is the threshold to guarantee heavy bone breaching. This is primarily an arrow for an upcoming moose hunt - though the arrow I shot last year penetrated a cow moose fully.
If I were you I would try the Vforce HV 350's as I think the 300s would be too stiff. The 300's are 7.2 gpi while the 350s are 6.8 gpi. I have never tried the 400s.
Does increase FOC help? Yes in both penetration and arrow flight.
Certainly a 450 grain arrow can kill anything in NA - so can a 243 but neither is optimal for the largest game.
I am reluctant to get rid of any Victory shafts at the moment - I am expecting a new bow any week now and I think the half a doz. 350's are going to work great for it. If you shop around you can find them for a good price easily cheaper than Carbon Express.
That is true. My only concern is that with the .350's when I add all the weight needed, they will come out too weak. With the .350's, it is looking like I will need to add about 275 grains up front to reach my goal weight. Do you believe that this will make the arrows too weak?
I think the bottom line is i will just have to buy a shaft of each and see which one I can get to tune.
imho, and in the long run, assuming a super sharp broadhead is used in conjunction with good arrow flight, then consistent arrow placement under hunting conditions will always trump a "hot rodded" arrow.
if it takes a buncha up-front weight to make a shaft fly really well, under hunting conditions, then so be it.
if the foc is greatly upped just for the sake of some thinking that sez high foc is THAT much better than low foc, and the resulting high foc arrow doesn't fly as well as the low foc arrow, who are we kidding? just looking to keep things in some measure of perspective.
the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead.
how much better, if at all, is higher foc? there are a buncha good test that say it's definitely better. however, we all need to keep in mind that tons of game have fallen to low 9% foc arrows, and if that low foc arrow flies well and the bowhunter does things right, well, game over.
ymmv.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
imho, and in the long run, assuming a super sharp broadhead is used in conjunction with good arrow flight, then consistent arrow placement under hunting conditions will always trump a "hot rodded" arrow.
if it takes a buncha up-front weight to make a shaft fly really well, under hunting conditions, then so be it.
if the foc is greatly upped just for the sake of some thinking that sez high foc is THAT much better than low foc, and the resulting high foc arrow doesn't fly as well as the low foc arrow, who are we kidding? just looking to keep things in some measure of perspective.
the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead.
how much better, if at all, is higher foc? there are a buncha good test that say it's definitely better. however, we all need to keep in mind that tons of game have fallen to low 9% foc arrows, and if that low foc arrow flies well and the bowhunter does things right, well, game over.
ymmv.
Rob,
you make a lot of great points. I guess I am just trying to make me an arrow that has a little more speed and better trajectory. I am not trying to make a "hot-rod" arrow, as my finished weight will still be around or above 9gpp, but I am trying to help with trajectory.
I also understand that no arrow in the world is as good as an arrow placed in the right spot. Me dropping my weight(not to a low weight, just to a lighter weight) is all for an attempt to help me hit that right spot. If an animal is at 25 yards, i want it to hit its spot.
I shoot a lot of competitions and always shoot my hunting arrows. Now, we all know that 3d tourneys aren't always a hunting shot, etc. But I noticed that at the farther distances(25+), i would have to compensate more than I was use to compensating. Though I may not shoot at a deer at 30 yards, if a deer is at 30 and everything feels "right", I want an arrow that i have to make minimal adjustments to get it where I need it.
I hope all that made sense.
imho, trad bowhunting is Nothing like playing target games, even 3D games. they're 180 degrees different. but, i understand the functional need for a flatter arrow at longer HUNTING distances. so, from my personal perspective, hunting trumps target games.
so, the question then becomes, what is your safe long distance shot on deer-size game? will going to a faster arrow w/lower trajectory help the hunting as well as the 3D? will that 25-30yd shot on a deer feel to you as confident as that 15yd shot? if it's 'yes', then yer good to go. if it's 'maybe', well, maybe you need a hunting arrow and a 3D arrow.
Daniel,you definitely don't want the .300's.I use the Victory V Force HV .350's out of a 53# bow and cut to 30",I need app. 425 grs on the front.That makes a 65o gr arrow.Cut to 29",I need a little over 500 grs up front.That makes a 728 gr arrow.The FOC is way up there but obviously,you wouldn't like the overall weight.
If you want to compare two shafts,I would get .400's and .350's.I find the Victory .350's to act stiffer than Gold Tip .340's and if your current shafts are thinner in diameter than the Victorys,that can make them act stiffer yet.
I would be shocked if you could get a 30" Victory to tune with only 275 grs on the front.My draw length is similar to yours,possibly a little longer.You don't want the .300's!I really believe you should try a .400.
Did you ever see the new style nerf footballs that are heavy in the front with the tail(fletching) on the back? Whistle too..
I watched kids other day at the field throwing them a football field length with ease.
They had reg foot ball and only threw it 30- 40 yards at the longest. Btw. They r Fun to throw Same concept.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
Daniel,you definitely don't want the .300's.I use the Victory V Force HV .350's out of a 53# bow and cut to 30",I need app. 425 grs on the front.That makes a 65o gr arrow.Cut to 29",I need a little over 500 grs up front.That makes a 728 gr arrow.The FOC is way up there but obviously,you wouldn't like the overall weight.
If you want to compare two shafts,I would get .400's and .350's.I find the Victory .350's to act stiffer than Gold Tip .340's and if your current shafts are thinner in diameter than the Victorys,that can make them act stiffer yet.
I would be shocked if you could get a 30" Victory to tune with only 275 grs on the front.My draw length is similar to yours,possibly a little longer.You don't want the .300's!I really believe you should try a .400.
Jim,
I have had the time of my life getting arrows to tune. a 30.5" .340 spined bare shaft arrow with 175 grains up front flies like a dart. So that is what I was going by.
I know this seems like a really stiff arrow for a #53 bow, but it is all I can get to work.
On all my bows, I always have a heavy spined arrow. on a #45 sammick sage, i had to use a .400 spined arrow and even build out the shelf some to make it bareshaft well.
QuoteOriginally posted by RedShaft:
Did you ever see the new style nerf footballs that are heavy in the front with the tail(fletching) on the back? Whistle too..
I watched kids other day at the field throwing them a football field length with ease.
They had reg foot ball and only threw it 30- 40 yards at the longest. Btw. They r Fun to throw Same concept.
That is a very interesting concept. I remember throwing those balls around. I think that is a perfect example of the high FOC.
Well,you might prove me wrong then.I could send you a couple 30 3/8",.350 Victorys but they are footed,have 100 gr inserts installed,4" wraps and 3",4 fletch,plus I also have one bare shaft,same length,insert and wrap.just let me know.
realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form). this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards. gotta love the talent.
i used to Obsess over everything about arrows. then i stopped and got better. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
Well,you might prove me wrong then.I could send you a couple 30 3/8",.350 Victorys but they are footed,have 100 gr inserts installed,4" wraps and 3",4 fletch,plus I also have one bare shaft,same length,insert and wrap.just let me know.
Jim,
I will gladly take them!
Let me know what I owe you, and how to get it to you!
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form). this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards. gotta love the talent.
i used to Obsess over everything about arrows. then i stopped and got better. :D
Rob, i wonder why my arrows always tune so stiff. I wonder is it a bad release(but wouldn't that make me need a weaker spined arrow?) or is it good(makes sense that a smoother release would need a stiffer spine).
Bottom line is I have no idea! lol.
Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball as hard as you can. Which one will travel farther?
Daniel,just PM me your address.
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
realize also, that to a large extent, how ANY arrow will fly will depend on you and yer shooting (form). this is why uncle howard could grab arrows out of the quivers of a dozen different archers and hit a pie plate with 'em all at 30 yards. gotta love the talent.
i used to Obsess over everything about arrows. then i stopped and got better. :D
Rob, i wonder why my arrows always tune so stiff. I wonder is it a bad release(but wouldn't that make me need a weaker spined arrow?) or is it good(makes sense that a smoother release would need a stiffer spine).
Bottom line is I have no idea! lol. [/b]
welp, if yer messing with carbons, their dynamic spine is totally different than their labelled static spine. most archers will do better by going down 1 or 2 carbon spine numbers, and at the same time loading up the front end a whole bunch.
for me, and using 45-55# holding weight longbows (hybrid and hill), a 29"+ beman ics 500 with at least 250 up front is my *light* arrow at 505 grains for a 45-47# longbow. i swap out to 100 grain brass insert and get me a 585 grain arrow for the 50-55# longbows. same cheapo beman ics bowhunter 500 shaft, 29"+ in length to the back of the insert. use whatever works best.
ps - the larger part of arrow tuning problem is always gonna be the archer. we all have 'bad dayze', some worse than others, and all will skew the results one way or another. a common denominator would be a shooting machine, but they're irrelevant because they don't include the unique human factor.
pps - FAR too many archers short draw, too. and what does that do for arrow spine? ;) FAR too many archers are overbowed, as well, leading to the previous sentence. :(
I agree with Rob, shot placement is the deal. I am shooting heavy arrows with all being 31.5 to 34.6% FOC. If I had to narrow down all the FOC benefits down to pick just one....it would be very consistent arrow flight. Which translates into the best chances for proper shot placement.
Even with maybe a bad release or arrow hitting leaf or limb...the arrow so very quickly straightens back on course to follow the 500 grains up front still on target.
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.
bingo! we have a winnah! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.
I do the same thing. Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows. I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow. A full length .340 will not fly well either. I have to trim it down some.
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
I do the same thing. Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows. I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow. A full length .340 will not fly well either. I have to trim it down some.
this may all be a matter of your bow (tiller, brace height, nock point, holding weight, etc) and your shooting form (string grip, bowhand, what drawing and holding muscles you employ and their dynamics during the hold and release shot sequences, etc).
i say all this because i know of archers who, perhaps like you, have a very narrow selection of arrows that fly well, whereas other archers can easily get away with either stiffer or weaker shafted arrows. some folks just can't seem to get carbons to work at all and stick with well flying woodies ... and vice-versa. finding/understanding why these things occur can be near impossible to figure out, but they do occur. sometimes just moving to a different bow will be the magic answer, and probably one reason why folks get disillusioned with their latest whizbang bow and are on the classifieds looking to both sell and buy.
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
I've killed 29 deer w/ traditional bows. Used point weights from 110grs up to 250grs. The difference I've noticed is the bow arrow combo that tuned the best, performed the best regardless of FOC. This is why I bareshaft tune my shooting form from time to time.
I agree with that as well. What I have found is that the very high FOC arrows I have built are much easier to tune due to having a significantly wider spine window and being much less sensitive to weight changes in shaft.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
I do the same thing. Which is why I shoot .340 spined arrows. I can not, no matter how short I trim the arrows, get a .400 spined arrow to fly right out of my bow. A full length .340 will not fly well either. I have to trim it down some.
this may all be a matter of your bow (tiller, brace height, nock point, holding weight, etc) and your shooting form (string grip, bowhand, what drawing and holding muscles you employ and their dynamics during the hold and release shot sequences, etc).
i say all this because i know of archers who, perhaps like you, have a very narrow selection of arrows that fly well, whereas other archers can easily get away with either stiffer or weaker shafted arrows. some folks just can't seem to get carbons to work at all and stick with well flying woodies ... and vice-versa. finding/understanding why these things occur can be near impossible to figure out, but they do occur. sometimes just moving to a different bow will be the magic answer, and probably one reason why folks get disillusioned with their latest whizbang bow and are on the classifieds looking to both sell and buy. [/b]
Rob,
the funny thing is I have never shot a bow that i didn't have to have a heavier spine. For instance, I own a longbow and recurve for hunting and target shooting. One is #51@28(LB) and the RC is #53@28.
The RC is a widow and the LB is a bow i built a few years ago. the recurve shoots a .340 spine, the lb shoots a .400 cut to 30 with 200 up front.
I have seen people shooting .500 spined arrows with a #50 bow. that is unreal to me. I guess this is all just reiterating what you said. I must be one of the people who can't shoot wide variety of arrows. lol.
On my longbow I have to shoot #65 spined woodies.
I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.
in summary ...
- carbon shafting has a huge dynamic spine, and for most archers that will mean going down (weaker) 1 to 2 spine range numbers
- all trad bows are unique, and are part of the arrow tune formula
- the archer may prove to be the larger part of the arrow tune formula - LOTS of unique variables abound and need to be uncovered and conquered
Bigbadjon, I will respectfully disagree with your last sentence, and you left out draw length, bow efficiency and archers individual form. I like to think I know how to tune an arrow and can tune 340's and even 300's out of some low to mid fifty pound bows. My bare shafts, fletched field points and broadheads all tell me its on out to 35yds. The buck in my avatar was shot with a 300 spine goldtip ultralight high foc shooting 56#, pass thru.
Rob has made some really good points, as usual, and agree with all of them, especially the archers influence.
QuoteOriginally posted by bigbadjon:
I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.
Jon,
would you like for me to video this arrow paper tuned? I will gladly do that for you, if will help prove it to you.
It probably does make a perfect bullet hole but you're also probably pointing way to the right to hit center. Rob has been trying to say most of you are over spined. I agree with him.
I am looking at a .300 deflection Easton on my spine tester right now. It is spined so stiff it is off the chart on 26in posts. This is the arrow spine that was recommended to me from a member of this site that I thought knew what he was talking about for my A&H bow. There is no possible way anybody could get that arrow to tune out of that bow. I said what I said and still believe it to be true. Almost all traditional archers are overspined for carbons.
Daniel,
I feel your pain.
On my 50# Toelke Whip I shoot a 1535 Gold Tip with a 175 gr Simmons broad head and a skinny string and it flies great. I shot it bareshaft with field points and it flies great also.
My 51# Widow with a skinny string will not shoot that arrow or bare shaft a stiffer 3555 no matter how short I cut it. Go figure. I ran it up and down the brace height with no luck. It will shoot a Carbon Heritage 150. This Widow is finicky. If you look at the Gold Tip scale, I am on the fringe. You may be also.
Mike Harbison passed the same observation to me a couple of years ago. Most trad shooters can go down in size with no issue.
Good luck with it.
Are we getting together in October to shoot something?
QuoteOriginally posted by LA Trapper:
Daniel,
I feel your pain.
On my 50# Toelke Whip I shoot a 1535 Gold Tip with a 175 gr Simmons broad head and a skinny string and it flies great. I shot it bareshaft with field points and it flies great also.
My 51# Widow with a skinny string will not shoot that arrow or bare shaft a stiffer 3555 no matter how short I cut it. Go figure. I ran it up and down the brace height with no luck. It will shoot a Carbon Heritage 150. This Widow is finicky. If you look at the Gold Tip scale, I am on the fringe. You may be also.
Mike Harbison passed the same observation to me a couple of years ago. Most trad shooters can go down in size with no issue.
Good luck with it.
Are we getting together in October to shoot something?
Billy,
you bet we are!!! I am ready to be sitting in a tree. I may go sit in a tree one evening this week just to scout a little.
My #53 widow will not shoot a 5575 bare shaft. they are very finicky if you ask me.
my #51 longbow wont shoot a 35/55. I feel like everyone elses suggestions don't work for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by bigbadjon:
It probably does make a perfect bullet hole but you're also probably pointing way to the right to hit center. Rob has been trying to say most of you are over spined. I agree with him.
I look exactly where I want to hit, and thats where I hit, or relatively close.
If I had a perfect bullet hole, how would it not be in tune? Even if i bareshaft at different lengths?
I am asking, not being rude in any way.
QuoteOriginally posted by bigbadjon:
I think most people really don't know how to tune an arrow. A .340 arrow is made to fly out of a 70# compound. A .400 spine is meant to to fly out of a 60# compound. There is no way it will tune true from a 50ish pound trad bow no matter how center shot, point loaded, or long.
I respectfully disagree with this line of thought! I shoot .400 spine shafts from a 50.1# at my 29.5"DL longbow, and I can assure you they are well tuned!
Bisch
Most archers arrows are not centered on the string. As such it is possible to over spine an arrow and have it fly true by not pointing your bow square to the target. This is why some old timers might tell you your arrow cannot be too stiff. I take it you are an instinctive shooter. Sight down your arrow to see where you are actually pointing your bow when you are aiming. I would bet it is to the right of where you actually hit.
Also just to clear the air... I am not trying to be combative. Its just that the most common thread on this forum seems to inquire into carbon arrow spine and I do not believe the most common advice is accurate. I put off using carbons for years because of bad advice I received from a reputable member here.
Not all bows are built the same bigbadjon,
I have a 63lbs @28'' bow that bareshaft tunes w/ a 2317 cut to 28 1/2'' w/ a 150gr point weight. I'm think that shaft has a deflection of about .300.
When I say bareshaft tunes, I mean at any distance!
do NOT compare the static spine of alums and carbons, that's a mistake and will do you a disservice.
the static and dynamic spine of alum is extremely close, as it is for woodies and f'glass.
the issue is strictly with carbon shafting made up into arrows, where there is a huge corridor of difference 'tween static and dynamic spine for any give carbon shaft/arrow.
i will say again - it's not just about the carbon arrow, you MUST add in the bow and the archer to the equation. failing to do so can give y'all a false positive as to how you think any carbon spine will fly for you, outta a specific bow. for the very most part, this is NOT true for alums or woodies or f'glass shafts/arrows - they is what they is when they're on the spine meter. whereas carbons (i.e. - those weak 'n' wimpy ones) on the static spine meter, for the most part, can easily prove themselves to be LIARS whence launched out of your bow, by you - they FLY well.
AND, you MUST take into account the bow and YOU. this is why some folks can make a .300 fly like it's on rails out of a 45# holding weight trad bow, and others can't ever do that and get rails-on results with a .500 carbon.
the essence of all this is why carbons can get a bad rap, and the fast food answer is ... step down in static spine for yer first go 'round with carbon arrows.
:eek: :mad: :banghead: :campfire:
So Rob,
you are saying, shoot a .400 spined arrow even though the .340's fly well, both bareshaft and fletched?
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Now, if i was taught wrong, let me know. I have ALWAYS bareshafted my arrows, and shot the one that flew perfect! Am I "wrong" in doing this?
Why would i "step down in static spine" if my current arrows fly perfect.. not well, PERFECT!
As for which spine I shoot, i never "choose" a spine, i let the flight of the arrow tell me. If that is a .600 or a .100, I don't care, I just want good arrow flight.
daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.
ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process! if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!
as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.
all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part. y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.
"the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead." amen Rob.
Listen to Rob. A perfectly tuned arrow will trump every other consideration. I'm old-school and shoot nothing but wood, and I ignore FOC as long as it's positive. I bare-shaft tune to select the right stiffness shaft and my big broadheads fly true and hit with my field points. I do sometimes have to tweak the setup for some bows, but I'm always very close to perfect when I start with a bare-shaft selected spine. Arrows that are flying perfectly straight will always penetrate better than arrows that aren't.
back to the op's topic matter, foc ...
with carbons, since they're so dang light to begin with, i need to add weight to bring 'em at least up to 10gpp, but better over that number. i don't like messing with tube stuffing (weed whacker, etc) and prefer to add it all on the front end. this gives me good flight tuning latitude. this always has me ending up with an efoc or uefoc arrow, but that's NOT my goal, it's just a by-product of getting enuf arrow total mass weight and good flight characteristics. this can be done for alums as well, but i never shoot those shafts, not as durable as carbon (at least for me).
woodies are a different matter. i'm far more careful with raw shaft weight range, and somewhat less about the static spine range. the mass weight is more important to me and i like 'em light. i hot melt points on, mostly 125-200 grains, so there is no efoc happening with any of my woodies, not ever. some are down to 7% foc. but they're Heavy, most are in the 12-13gpp range for any of my longbows. do they penetrate, do they kill? oh yeah. no problem. :D
Rob, my woods this year are 625 grains for my 55# draw, a little over 11 gpp. I haven't calculated FOC because I don't care- with 145 Snuffers up front I know it's good enough. I'm different from you in wood arrow selection, though. I value matching spine over matching mass weight. I want all of my arrows within 5# spine, 2 or 3 better. In mass, as as long as I'm within a 20 grain spread I'm happy and accuracy doesn't suffer. My current set are all within 5 grains mass, but that was a happy accident.
Last year I shot 14 ggp. I see no trajectory issues in normal hunting range, out to 30 yards for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.
ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process! if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!
as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.
all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part. y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.
Rob,
I THOUGHT you were implying that my arrows are too stiff, which they may be, but they fly well.
I appreciate all your input.
What do you do for tuning purposes? As any archer who is relatively "new to the game", you learn from those who will teach you, research, topics like this, etc.
If my reply seemed pushy or rude at all, that was not my intent, and apologize as I can see how it may have came across that way.
QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
Listen to Rob. A perfectly tuned arrow will trump every other consideration. I'm old-school and shoot nothing but wood, and I ignore FOC as long as it's positive. I bare-shaft tune to select the right stiffness shaft and my big broadheads fly true and hit with my field points. I do sometimes have to tweak the setup for some bows, but I'm always very close to perfect when I start with a bare-shaft selected spine. Arrows that are flying perfectly straight will always penetrate better than arrows that aren't.
Don,
you reminded me why I began bare shaft tuning in the first place, broadhead flight. i remember shooting a field tip, hitting my mark, and shooting broadhead and hitting left of right of my mark be about 6" or so.
This is why I bare shaft, but if someone knows a better way, I am open to it. I can only do what I know how to do, which is why I started this topic, to hopefully learn from others trial and error.
QuoteOriginally posted by Don Stokes:
Rob, my woods this year are 625 grains for my 55# draw, a little over 11 gpp. I haven't calculated FOC because I don't care- with 145 Snuffers up front I know it's good enough. I'm different from you in wood arrow selection, though. I value matching spine over matching mass weight. I want all of my arrows within 5# spine, 2 or 3 better. In mass, as as long as I'm within a 20 grain spread I'm happy and accuracy doesn't suffer. My current set are all within 5 grains mass, but that was a happy accident.
ah, the written word or lack thereof. i'm not so much interested in woodie spine weight and and can always get by with 55-65# spine groups. HOWEVER, whatever spine group i get i want those shafts to be within 5# average. i shoot arrows in "built groups". this gets the brain sight to know how a group of 55# spine will fly as opposed to a 65# spine group (this is all about woodies only!). as to mass difference, 100 grain span is the max i'll go. this is for shooting at 5 to 20 yards and not much more, which is why i like really heavy woodies (650+) for these relatively light longbow holding weights (45-50# on average).
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
daniel, please reread what i typed - i've not said you *must* drop down to a weaker spine, but that for most folks their choice of carbon static spine will be too high as the dynamic spine is much stiffer.
ALL bows and archers are different and they are always part of the arrow tuning process! if your bow and you like a particular carbon arrow spine, yer good to go, that's just great!
as for bare shafting - nope, don't believe it's all that necessary, and in my fact it can be detrimental to a completed arrow's flight characteristics ... again, dependent on the bow and the string puller.
all my typing on this matter are strictly my opinions and in no way am i ever advocating "my way or the highway" - that would be stupid on my part. y'all need to do yer own testing and draw yer own conclusions, that's always the bottom line.
Rob,
I THOUGHT you were implying that my arrows are too stiff, which they may be, but they fly well.
I appreciate all your input.
What do you do for tuning purposes? As any archer who is relatively "new to the game", you learn from those who will teach you, research, topics like this, etc.
If my reply seemed pushy or rude at all, that was not my intent, and apologize as I can see how it may have came across that way. [/b]
I'm shooting 85-90# barreled shafts (deflection of 0.280) at 30" bop from this hot recurve, pulling it 29" to an estimated 55#. Perfect flight with the 145 Snuffers and three 5" shields.
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
... What do you do for tuning purposes? As any archer who is relatively "new to the game", you learn from those who will teach you, research, topics like this, etc. ....
for me, simply put, i just let the completed arrow do the talking. i fly each one maybe a dozen times and see what's happening. if i can't correct a bad flying arrow, and i know for SURE it ain't me, i'll video the shooting. seeing what you've done after the fact can be both sobering and humbling. i've even gotten into videoing my rifle shooting, flintlocks and big bores. when yer concentrating on the spot, as we all should, how yer bowstring fingers work and your holding and aiming form may very well be not what yer brain is thinking. this video thing has really helped me with long range .45-70 shooting, as well as flinging arrows.
i can get most arrows to bare shaft well. thing is, since i don't shoot bare shafts for game or targets, so i'd rather skip that step, fletch up, point up, see how they fly. i pretty much know what SHOULD work before they even git on the bowstring, so it'd be rare to build an arrow and have it fly and land like krap. but that can happen to me, and has ... but very rarely.
there are dayze that i shouldn't pull string, and when i do, i know to stop and try some other day.
i don't have, nor need, many bows, just three longbows that range from around 38# to about 53# at a draw of 29" to the front of the bow shelf. when i build some arrows i'll shoote 'em outta all of 'em, get their opinion of what i just fed 'em and sorta take it from there. they all will work one way or another. the only thing i demand is at least 10gpp arrow weight, and will go upwards of 12-13 gpp.
with carbons, i tune with the point weight, and a .500 spine works well for ME within my draw length and bow holding weights. i hot glue points to adapters and can change out either. sometimes, if i need a LOT of front end weight, i use a brass ferrule instead of the much lighter alum. i keep spreadsheet charts of all my arrows and bows, all the pertinent data of what works.
woodies are tougher, and when i have a group to build i'll bare shaft a few to see what i'm dealing with and take it from there. sometimes, not often, with woodie arrows i need to make 'em a bit longer in length.
in essence, there are things you learn to do, but there are no cut 'n' dry absolute formulas for arrow tuning that will work with everyone. it's like shaft selection software - might look good on the screen, but reality is the judge and jury. i don't like shaft software either.
i can't stress enuf how good a heavy arrow is in terms of ease of tune, stability in flight especially when yer release kinda sucks, how it quiets the bow string because it demands to eat the larger share of the transmission (bowstring) energy.
no matter what the foc/lmnop, a goodly heavy arrow is like comparing getting yerself hit at 30mph by a car or a freight train - one requires a stretcher, the other a wide shovel scraper. :eek:
dang, i wrote a book and probably didn't say much worth a hoot! :D
"dang, i wrote a book and probably didn't say much worth a hoot!"
Sorry Rob,I have to disagree.You said a lot and it's all pertinent.
Rob, I will agree on the book part! as for the other part, I will have to see how that goes for me! lol.
Thanks for helping this post turn out well. I will bring it back up in a few days when I figure out the exact set up that works for me.
Rob,
have you ever shot/owned a black widow?
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
... Rob,
have you ever shot/owned a black widow?
shot lots, never owned.
Shot MA's for years ranging from 53lbs to 78lbs. They always required a stiffer spine arrow when comparing to others of the same draw weight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
... Rob,
have you ever shot/owned a black widow?
shot lots, never owned. [/b]
That is why I asked. I have never heard of one that didn't require a heavier spine that the same bow of a different brand.
I have a friend who has a #50 widow. He shoots HEXX .330's out of his with 250 grains up front.
Kris, who also replied that he shoot a .350 with 500 grains up front, which is crazy to me. I would have to shoot a .050 spine to shoot 500 grains up front.
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
Shot MA's for years ranging from 53lbs to 78lbs. They always required a stiffer spine arrow when comparing to others of the same draw weight.
I agree. I am shooting a MAIII that is #53@28.
MA's are cut a bit more past center than most others. There for the reason they shoot a stiffer spine arrow.
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
MA's are cut a bit more past center than most others. There for the reason they shoot a stiffer spine arrow.
I had no idea! Do you know what they are cut to?
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielB89:
QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
MA's are cut a bit more past center than most others. There for the reason they shoot a stiffer spine arrow.
I had no idea! Do you know what they are cut to? [/b]
for any trad bow, it's relatively easy to check the arrow plate offset by checking the limb centers.
I want to say 3/16?? but could be wrong
Yup, BW recurves are cut 3/16 past centre, which explaines why you can shoot them with stiffer spines.
BTW,
Here you have a spine conversion table for a better understanding:
15-35 or 0.600" becomes: 26/0.6 x 1.2115 = 52.5 lbs
35-55 or 0.500" becomes: 26/0.5 x 1.2115 = 63 lbs
55-75 or 0.400" becomes: 26/0.4 x 1.2115 = 78 lbs
75-95 or 0.300" becomes: 26/0.3 x 1.2115 = 105 lbs
I am all the way with Rob! Looking at this figures, it is not so hard to understand that for most 45 to 55 lbs bows, a.500 or even an.600 spine (when shortened a little) would do fine.... Especially when you consider that carbon recovers much quicker from the paradox.
However, most carbon shafts wont go over the 8 GPI, resulting in a very low arrow weight, like 350 to 450 grains, if you would use a front weight of 100 to 150 grains. For a 50 lbs bow that would mean 7.5 to 9 GPP.
So what you do is go heigher in spine by shortening the shaft or taking a higher spine value and add front weight to get the arrow tuned and get more mass...
So what you really do is over-spining yourself and then correcting it with more front weight in order to get more weight. :)
And that is how EFOC is born :)
If you don't want EFOC, then simply take a lower spined shaft and put something in it. I had great results with weat-eater line.
My five cents...
I got my 2 arrows in yesterday. One was a full length .350 and the other a full length. I added my 100 grain insert and 175 grain point.
I shot the .350 first. The first shot the arrow was almost sideways in the air, I wanted to make sure it wasn't me, so I shot it a few more times with the same results. So I took my 100 grain insert out and put it in the .300 spine.
I was shooting about 3 to 4 shots before i trimmed the arrow any. Every shot was weak, trimmed 1/2" off.
the 3 shots were still weak, but i was getting closer, so i trimmed 1/4" off.
The next 3 shots were all BARELY weak. I had just built this new skinny string(10 strand BCY-X) and I hadn't installed silencer or anything, but I had stretched it out well.
Well with the arrows just barely weak, I said I'd go ahead and install my cat whiskers. they made my arrows goes from slightly weak, to slightly stiff! lol.
So now I know which arrow I will be ordering. A dozen .300 spined arrows.