As I mentioned before, I've done a bunch of test in the past, but I've never documented them. Now that I have some spare time here and there, I've decide to retest a few things that I feel has helped me in terms of tuning my bowhunting rigs.
I've played around with fletching for years. From 2" to 5", parabolics to shields, two fletch to four fletch, 90 degrees to 120 degrees, and even tried staggering my fletches.
For this test, all I'm comparing is two different fletch orientations and it's impact off of the riser.
***Please keep in mind that these results are also affected by the size and shape of the arrow shelf and strike plate, which is one reason why testing results vary.
How I prefer to orientate my fletching.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft1.jpg)
Cock feather out.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft2.jpg)
The first thing that I did, was I taped my riser with masking tape to show the lipstick tracks.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft3.jpg)
Then, I grabbed the lipstick and one arrow. Lipstick is messy, but it leaves a great trail. (some prefer to use things like foot powder)
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft4.jpg)
Then I applied the lipstick to the "contacting feathers". I applied a little too much but figured it would show up even better.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft5.jpg)
First I shot my preference of orientation.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft6.jpg)
Here's what the tracks look like after the shot, as mentioned, I applied too much lipstick and it's darker than usual. What I did in the past was I tried all the common orientations until I found the one with the least or lightest amount of tracks. This orientation always came out the best for my personal set up.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft7.jpg)
I set up this test so that it would produce two results. Impact on the riser and how it affects arrow flight, so I also set up my paper tuner. It produced a bullet hole on the first shot.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft8.jpg)
Then I rotated the nock to have the cock feather out.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft9.jpg)
Here's what the tracks look like. It even marked the under side of the shelf.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft10.jpg)
Here are the results through paper.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft12.jpg)
I shoot almost all of my longbows the way your preference is. I've never shot through paper or done any test like you have though. It's interesting to see though. I built a neat paper tuning rack with a roller and everything and have never used it. I guess I need to get out and do some testing,thanks for the pictures.
Ok, I know that could've been a bad shot. Even I said that to myself, so I decided to take a second shot with the cock feather out.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft13.jpg)
Almost the exact same results through paper.
Great stuff Ryan thanks for posting that. Hard to argue with those results.
So was my first shot a fluke??? I spun the nock back to my preference of fletching orientation and shot through the paper. Talk about pressure... All the evidence was now on this one piece of paper. LOL!
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/ft14.jpg)
Not perfect, slight nock right, might have been a slight short draw due to the nerves... LOL! excuses, excuses... yes, I'm a bowhunter...
I've done these test with a bunch of different bows, fletches and fletching orientations. I've definitely had some interesting results over the years.
One thing I can say... When tuning broadheads, it's so much easier from me when the arrows are flying clean off of the shelf from the start...
Guess that shoots the "arrow clears shelf before feathers get there" theory all to snot. Your preferred setup is much like Ken Beck at Black Widow does. He turns the nock also but starts with cock feather out. Turns it till hen feather is lined up like you show,
Thanks for showing these tests, helps folks understand how the bow and arrow interact when shot.
Great test Ryan! Thanks for taking the time to post this!
I have always got better arrow flight and paper tuning results out of cock feather in. I am going to try some shots like you had the feathers set.
Good stuff Ryan. I shoot my feathers the same way you do. I remember Ken Beck suggesting this way several years ago.
I have a very high anchor point and this way gets the feather out of my vision better that other ways.
I use a JO-JAN with right wing fletch and shoot cock feather in. My arrows fly great with NO kick, and if I put cock feather out I get a nock bump up. The bottom hen feather contacts the shelf just on the outer edge. And I do bare shaft test.
I have an other gig (can't remember the name) thats left wing and I shoot with cock feather out and great flight. The bottom hen angles to the groove towards the window.
Thanks Gang!
Charlie, cock feather in works great too! I just have this one like this because the shelf on my bow is a little wide, so I need the "7 o'clock" fletch a bit out. Foar smaller shelves, the cock feather in is fine.
For a majority of these tests, the results are mine, but the suggestions are from other bowhunters.
I need to thank Rod Jenkins for all his ideas and suggestions. Guys like him and as mentioned, Ken Beck has been helping for years.
I just like to test theories and ideas to see how they work for me.
I use three fletch and orient my lower inside fletch up in the corner, like your preferred way. I also leave a gap between the rest velcro and the sideplate velcro.
Bisch
Pictures are worth a thousand words...thanks brah.
How far you have your paper from the back of the riser?
Anytime bruddah Steve! Hope all is well!!! :shaka:
I found that if i stand 6 feet from the paper, I get the most reliable results as compared to bare shafting. So to answer your question, just over four feet from the back of the riser to the paper.
Aloha Gang!
All good here buddy. I use 6' from the back of my riser so we are close.
Ryan, thanks for taking the time to test and show the results. I orient my fletching in a similar fashion. I start with cock feather up, then rotate clockwise (viewed from nock end) until the inside hen feather points towards corner of riser/shelf AND outside hen is clear for shelf & cock is free of riser.... Very close to your orientation and it seems the best for me. I shoot Widows and probably received the basics of where I ended up from Ken Beck as well. You're doing good & beneficial work, keep it up! Thanks again!!!
I love this test. I prefer my arrows shot the way that works for you the best also. It just seemed to make the most sense to me when I first started. I had no other reason than that. Good to know I'm on the right track
Ryan, thanks for taking the time and sharing your results. I find all the information you post very helpful. Quick question. In the picture where you show your preferred orientation, are the fletches left wing or right? And do you think the arrow spinning one way or the other makes a difference with regard to shelf contact?
Good job Ryan and thanks for confirming what I have experienced. I shoot cock feather in .
Hmmm. Good info for center-shot bows, but it doesn't necessarily apply to bows with more paradox. Dan Quillian taught me that when you are apparently shooting the right spine and have fletching contact problems, you should build out the sight window to create more paradox and drop spine to compensate. Then the arrow bends enough to clear the riser completely, and the problem goes away.
I just went through this process with the recurve I'm shooting this season. I had to turn the cock feather in until I made the adjustment, and now my arrows clear the shelf whether the cock feather is in or out.
I was having trouble with the arrows kicking out of my new palmer in 2004 and Mike Palmer told me to shoot cock feather in and viola the kicking was gone.
Thanks Gang!
*****I want to reiterate this again. Yes this test does not apply to every bow and arrow combination, something which I mentioned in my first post. It only applies to how I've set up my rig.
meatCRK,
I prefer to shoot right wing because the fletches "curve up" in relation to the shelf. Again this is only one of my crazy theories. The left wing seems to curve into the shelf. In the past I was told if I'm right handed I should shoot left wing.
In terms of spinning, the arrow has a very minimal amount of time to spin (depending on brace height) but it does spin a little, which is something you can experiment with. If you notice from the pictures the alignment of the arrows at brace, then the mark of the lipstick is a little off, but just slightly.
Another condition that can be "fixed" by shooting cock feather in, is having a short third finger, which causes some torque on the release. My ex wife had this type hand, and cock feather in cured her "kick". The best release is had from fingers on which the crease of the first joint of the first and third fingers line up.
Can't argue with results like that. Thank you Ryan.
Love a good test! Excellent job with great pics!
Ironically I just started orienting my cock feather to your preference (5 o'clock position) with excellent results as well.
I am also incorporating RW fletch (only ever fletched LW) more now with that orientation and totally on-board (I am a RH shooter)!
Great post, many thanks for the confirmation and evaluation. I love an analytical mind!
Kris
I've recently tried this fletch orientation and I'm getting good flight and less wear on my rest. I'll stick with it.
Jack Howard convinced me of this back in the early "60's. He had taken high speed photos while doing the same testing on his bows using both a shooting machine and then with fingers and a tab. Always the same results as Ryan's.
Are you using wood aluminum or carbon arrows? The reason I ask is if using wood arrows and you are turning the nock 180 degrees would that not put your rift at the bottom instead of the top as it should be or is the rift thing not that important? The reason I ask is after seeing several pics of arrow pieces thru peoples hands due to the rift pointing back at them I have always made sure the rift of my woodies is pointing away from me on top.
Hey thank you for posting this. I love the fact that you posted pictures along with results and tested the results again.
Yep. Cock feather in gives the least contact with the shelf/side plate. Depending on how deeply the side plate is cut, and how low the shelf is cut to the bow hand, it can cause hen feather contact with the bow hand though. Raising the nock point a tad will reduce hen feather contact for cock feather out orientations. Always multiple factors involved.
Thanks Gang!
Orion, yes I agree, many factors involved when using different equipment. Even something like shaft diameter will affect the results.
stack,
I was using "skinny" carbons.
Aloha!
Nice test, thank you
Nice work Ryan!
I spent allot of time 20 years ago checking out this theory. It wasn't cool to use lipstick back then LOL. The results were the same though.
If you watch video footage of arrows leaving the bow it shows the path of the fletching as it passes the riser. It also confirms the same results.
The arrow material makes no difference once tuned to the bow and shooter.
Abe
LOL! Abe! It's probably still not cool to use lipstick!!! :D
Yesterday afternoon I was shooting broadheads and decided to test out some of your findings. I have been shooting "cock feather through the channel" ever since I heard Ken Beck talk about it years ago.
I'm shooting carbons, so the nocks are tune-able, 360 degrees. It was pretty amazing to watch the subtle difference in flight and impact. Cock feather through the channel for me.
Just wanted to remind those shooting wood arrows that wood arrow fletching can't be rotated without stripping and reattaching the fletching. Just rotating the nock on the shaft also rotates the grain and changes the spine. Spine is stiffest perpendicular to wood grain.
Just wanted to remind those shooting wood arrows that wood arrow fletching can't be rotated without stripping and reattaching the fletching. Just rotating the nock on the shaft also rotates the grain and changes the spine. Spine is stiffest perpendicular to wood grain.
True, jolathe, but if the grain is as straight as it should be you can still turn the upside down and have the correct gain orientation.
But if you do this Don, Will it not put the rift of the grain down instead of up as it should be?
Nothing scientific, but I just spent some time in the yard, shooting, at ranges from 8 yards out to around 35 yards.
I have always had decent flight, but not great flight. Always some wobble visually observed by me. This is with three and four fletch. After reading this, I turned some of the arrows around (three fletch) and tried.
Wow. . . It sure made a visually observable large difference in arrow flight (for me). I am gonna pursue this and maybe start shooting cock feather in ! I will decide after I get the chance to shoot broadheads that way as well.
Thanks for the heads up Ryan !
ChuckC
Indexers for cock feather at 12 o'clock are available. This is what Black Widow suggested for a while and maybe still does. I've used it with very good results.
QuoteOriginally posted by M60gunner:
Guess that shoots the "arrow clears shelf before feathers get there" theory all to snot.
With bows cut out from center, the shaft bends much more than a center shot bow. High speed photography clearly shows the fletch will clear the riser with normal height fletch. Center shot bows with much stiffer shafts may be much more prone to contact.
Great stuff, Ryan. Keep these things coming.
QuoteOriginally posted by stack:
Are you using wood aluminum or carbon arrows? The reason I ask is if using wood arrows and you are turning the nock 180 degrees would that not put your rift at the bottom instead of the top as it should be or is the rift thing not that important? The reason I ask is after seeing several pics of arrow pieces thru peoples hands due to the rift pointing back at them I have always made sure the rift of my woodies is pointing away from me on top.
Yeah, Stack, you have to figure out your index and fletch your woods accordingly. I shoot woods and like 90x90 four fletch or three fletch with the cock fletch up. It gives a similar orientation to Ryan's.
That's great news Chuck!
Rick,
Thank you for answering those questions and providing your additional insight!
Aloha!
Nice comparison, Ryan. You make good vids, too. I saw this tip on one of yours earlier.
Thank you for the kind word Paul!
I'm liking it. Put up a post about cock feather in , recently, myself.
I still haven's figured out how to compensate for the rift . when string the nock on a wood arrow, 3 fletch nock receiver. Gotta be simple, but my brain stalls thinking upside down &/or backwards.
Joe, just put the shaft in the fletching jig upside down and it will fletch with the rift up and cock feather in.
Thanks Fletcher!