Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: DanielB89 on September 08, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
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Alright, I have been wondering something. I have read where, "perfectly tuned arrows don't need as much feather", which makes perfect sense if you think about it.
But I am wondering if there is a point to where the feather becomes too short. The reason I ask is because I have "perfectly tuned" bareshafts at this current time. And I would like to try some shorter feathers.
I know for sure that 4" feathers would be fine,
I am wondering about 3" or so.
Any input would be appreciated.
Anyone out there shoot a 3" feather?
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Should be "perfectly tuned arrows, form, release and execution". I'm not that good so I opt for 5 inchers.
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I shoot 3" feathers on one of my ILF bows,along with some 2" Blazer vanes also.It has an elevated magnetic rest on it.I use this ILF mainly for target shooting.
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Perfect tune culminates with broadhead tuning.All broadheads have different degrees of wind shear and this affects how much feather you need.You need to shoot broadheads and see what works under all conditions,not just perfect.
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I have tried shorter and settled on a lower profile just under 5" feather. I use a bamboo skewer in my chopper to get the feather profile I want. :archer:
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I shoot four 2" rayzr's with a right helical. They fly awesome
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I've shot 3 ,4" feathers with broadheads for years including big snuffers with perfect flight, even tried 3" and they flew great.I keep the back height to 5/8" and that keeps them quiet.I stuck with the 4" pretty much because it looked better.
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I shoot 5 1/2 inch feathers,my arrows fly perfect bare shafting.But when I have been sitting in the cold for hours and my cold stiff fingers do not come off of the string perfect my BIG feathers help me out with arrow flight.
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Tried my broadheads out of the other bow last night, flew fine as well. I'm using 5" feathers and I guess I'm of the mindset if it isn't broke don't fix it.
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Originally posted by Jarrod Reno:
I shoot four 2" rayzr's with a right helical. They fly awesome
wow! I that sounds like a pretty sweet set up if you ask me.
The main reason I was wanting to swap feather lengths is I notice my 5.5" high shield cut feathers were almost "dragging" my arrows down. I had 2 arrows I experimented with.
1. standard 3 5.5" fletch with a left helical.
2. 4 fletch 4" feathers and the trajectory at farther distances was different. it was not much but it was different.
this was based off of non concrete, subjective testing, but these were my findings.
I have since fletched all my arrows with 3 4" feathers, i was wondering if it would benefit trajectory even more if i went to 3 3".
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I just switched to four 3" and found they work great even with big Snuffers.
Not sure about trajectory, but wind drift is greatly minimized.
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4 3" and 3 4" have the same feather surface. I am not 100% sure, but i would bet that the feather surface is actually what matters.
I think if i would have just swapped to a lower profile 5.5" cut, i would have had better trajectory.
By switching from 3 5" hi profile shields to 3 4" parabolic, i am liking the trajectory at farther distance(25+) a lot more that the 3 5.5".
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Daniel,
I started experimenting with smaller fletch last year by trimming down some already fletched 5". Seemed to work pretty good but my confidence level wasn't there.
Then this year, after listening to Ed Ashby at Compton, I got some new shafts and bare shafted with 31.6% FOC. Then fletched them up with 3x3" ACE type fletching that I had cut myself. I have been shooting them exclusively since about the first of July. I shoot both field tips and Grizzly Kodiaks and find they both hit the same point and fly great. The big advantage to small fletch is when shooting in the wind. Much less yaw in a cross wind.
I am convinced I could reduce the size even further but for now 3" works great and is what I will be taking on hunting trips this year. I was concerned that the big Grizzly Kodiaks might overwhelm the fletching but that has not happened. I shoot in a broadhead league every week - thru cardboard. Even now, with really ratty fletching, my broadheads are flying great.
As Ashby said, the higher the FOC the less steerage the arrow needs, and that has proven accurate to me.
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Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,
I started experimenting with smaller fletch last year by trimming down some already fletched 5". Seemed to work pretty good but my confidence level wasn't there.
Then this year, after listening to Ed Ashby at Compton, I got some new shafts and bare shafted with 31.6% FOC. Then fletched them up with 3x3" ACE type fletching that I had cut myself. I have been shooting them exclusively since about the first of July. I shoot both field tips and Grizzly Kodiaks and find they both hit the same point and fly great. The big advantage to small fletch is when shooting in the wind. Much less yaw in a cross wind.
I am convinced I could reduce the size even further but for now 3" works great and is what I will be taking on hunting trips this year. I was concerned that the big Grizzly Kodiaks might overwhelm the fletching but that has not happened. I shoot in a broadhead league every week - thru cardboard. Even now, with really ratty fletching, my broadheads are flying great.
As Ashby said, the higher the FOC the less steerage the arrow needs, and that has proven accurate to me.
Pete, i am trying to raise up my FOC and lower my arrow weight. The problem is that I can not find an arrow that is what I need that isn't $130/dzn.
I am currently shooting beman MFX's 340's and they shoot very well, but they are 10.4gpi that are 30.5" long with standard inserts and 175 grain head.
If my calculations, my FOC is less than 15%. But also, my arrows are over around 550 with a #53 bow. I know that every believes that 10gpp is "the standard", but I want about 9 gpp.
the only arrows I have found are the easton HEXX which are about $10/arrow, which i just can't see paying because i buy a dozen for under $60.
Just by changing arrows, it would raise my FOC by 2%. But i'd be out of $120. :banghead:
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Some want a longer fletch to help the arrow stabilize faster for increased penetration and if it hits a twig it will recover faster.
That was advice I got from Byron Ferguson.
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I go longer and shallower -- ancient Chinese style 4-fletch. The fletches are 1/5" the arrow length (closer to 6" than 5") and the height of the fletch is the diameter of the shaft(5/16 or so).
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I shoot three 5" shield cuts with a right helical. I get good flight so, I never felt the need to experiment.
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Daniel,
Take a look at Victory VForce HV shafts. 6.8 to 7.2 gpi - They run about $60/doz. if you shop around.
My setup - 60# R/D at 28". 29.375 BOP Victory VForce HV 300 shafts + 100 gr. insert + 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak = 650 gr. with all the epoxy, nock, fletching, etc. & 31.6% FOC. They fly like lasers.
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I think once you have the broadhead on there, you could be rolling the dice with feathers too short...you'd have to just try and see. I dont spend too much time thinking about this type of thing but then again I havent felt the need to do any drastic tinkering with my set ups. I few years back, I swithced to 4 4inch feather after shooting 3 5inch since I started this bit. Got great flight then.....get great flight now, maybe a tad better with every broadhead I have tried, using the 4 fletch. With the little "pros" to using 4 and getting great flight, i dont see myself ever changing it up again.
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I just like the look of 5" fletching, even though I have gotten good performance from 4" feathers.
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Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,
Take a look at Victory VForce HV shafts. 6.8 to 7.2 gpi - They run about $60/doz. if you shop around.
My setup - 60# R/D at 28". 29.375 BOP Victory VForce HV 300 shafts + 100 gr. insert + 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak = 650 gr. with all the epoxy, nock, fletching, etc. & 31.6% FOC. They fly like lasers.
Pete, so now the million dollar question..
do I get the .350's? or do I get the .300's?
My current arrows are .340's and fly very well.
Decisions..decisions..
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I use 3 4" parabolic cut and my Razorheads, Snuffers, and Howard Hill heads all fly great.
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Originally posted by DanielB89:
Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,
Take a look at Victory VForce HV shafts. 6.8 to 7.2 gpi - They run about $60/doz. if you shop around.
My setup - 60# R/D at 28". 29.375 BOP Victory VForce HV 300 shafts + 100 gr. insert + 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak = 650 gr. with all the epoxy, nock, fletching, etc. & 31.6% FOC. They fly like lasers.
Pete, so now the million dollar question..
do I get the .350's? or do I get the .300's?
My current arrows are .340's and fly very well.
Decisions..decisions.. [/b]
I just bought a dozen .340 and a dozen .300 Full Metal Jackets at 150 dollars a dozen to learn exactly the same thing...all depends upon how serious you are about finding the arrow you wish to use for a particular hunt, in my case moose with my Blacktail...the cost of the arrows is rather insignificant compared to the value of 300 pounds of deboned venison
DDave
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Daniel, if your shooting 340's 30.5" and 175gr tip I think the 300 spine would work with 300gr up front starting full length yielding around 27% foc and 540gr in the victory vforce hv shaft. It is what I am currently, shooting 4x4" feathers for a little extra guidance although they fly just fine with an A&A fletch and turbulator.
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My friend Todd Gregory (Birdbow) has been experimenting with four 2" Razor vanes from Gateway. I believe he shoots 300 grains up front but found that only certain broad heads shot well. The best was the Grizzly head. Here are the results.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Arrowworks/Toddsdoe_zpse27dc986.jpg) (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/Arrowworks/media/Toddsdoe_zpse27dc986.jpg.html)
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x2 for the Victory VForces. I don't run a high FOC setup, but I can tell you they fly like lazers. I've shot about a million different arrows, and so far they're the best arrows for the money that I've found.
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I shoot a 3" on arrow for the compound but shoot 4" on recurve arrows. I went with 4" because I had a bunch of them. I did try a few 5" that I bummed from a friend, but I didn't see any difference. The 3" just don't look right on a traditional bow arrow. I tried them and found they work well but I just couldn't get over the look of them.
If I was just starting out, I would probably just go with the 5" though as it is more traditional and will help with a bad release.
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The guy who writes that column at the end of Trad Bowhunter mag (African guide, can't remember his name now) said in a recent edition that he had been able to go down as far as a 1.5" or 2" feather on his extreme f.o.c. arrows with good broadhead flight and much better performance in windy conditions. I would think 3" feathers would work perfectly well for most broadheads if the arrows are tuned and your form is good.
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My arrows are about 23% FOC and bareshaft great. However, I continue to use 5 inch feathers.
I was under the impression that the larger feathers performed better in a stiff crosswind PROVIDED you have a broadhead and not a field point...is that not the case?
The two statements that seem to contradict each other: 1. You would not need feathers/vanes if there was no wind. 2. Smaller feathers/vanes make for better flight in a crosswind.
What am I missing here?
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Bill Carlsen posted about my arrow setup for this season. I feel a comment's in order.
Much of what I discovered that works for me was based on experimentation on the range and is based a lot on Dr. Ashby's research - EFOC, penetration, and most recently, less fletching than has been traditionally the norm.
I should be from Missouri because 'show me' is in my nature. When I read the Ashby findings about SB broad heads and bone impacts, I tried it for myself, shooting through green bear shoulder blades. My observations about penetration on bone and the splitting effect of the heads rotation on that bone confirmed for me what I had read. In fact, I had to chisel broad heads out of a stump's heartwood AFTER the shoulder blade penetration.
When I learned of the 'less is more' fletching equation, I experimented until I found the combination that I was comfortable hunting with. And that is the point - on game, I wouldn't shoot anything I wasn't entirely convinced would fly true and work.
Don't assume anything, what works for me might not work for you. Try it out thoroughly before taking it to the woods.
Good hunting.
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Charlie: The thinking is that less cross section (small feather) is affected less by crosswind than a large one. Also, less drag so a flatter overall trajectory downrange, which probably doesn't matter much at the ranges we shoot. I think he was saying that with that much weight out front, it tends to want to stay one course due to inertia more than a small f.o.c. arrow would, and so requires less feather to keep it on course. Of course, I could be wrong, too.