Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ryan Sanpei on September 08, 2014, 10:07:00 PM
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A few years back, I was curious to find out how much cat whiskers adversely affected my arrow speeds. I played around with the size of them and placement on my bowstrings. I tried to get a fine balance between minimal affect on speed and acceptable noise reduction. After a bunch of testing, I found out what was working in regards to my set up. The only thing... I forget to document it.
Yesterday I had the Chono out, so I decided to run some tests with my wife's bow. For each cat whisker ball, I'm currently using two 1 1/4" strips (the round ones). They each weigh 17grs per ball. I use a total of four on each string.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw1.jpg)
First I chrono'd my standard set up. For strings under 52", I have them set 8" and 14" away from the end loops on both sides.
With this set up, I got an average of 158fps.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw2.jpg)
To replicate a larger, single cat whisker, I situated both cat whisker balls at 14". This got an average of 157fps.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw3.jpg)
Next I left one at 14" and slides the other to 20". The average here was 154fps.
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(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw4.jpg)
Then I slid the other one to 20" and both were at 20". This got an average of 152fps.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw5.jpg)
After those series of test were done, I decided to cut off one ball from each side. So now, there was only one at 14" on each side. 159fps was the average here.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/rysanpei/cw6.jpg)
Finally, I cut off the reminder two and shot it through the chrono. An average of 160fps was reported.
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Cool! Thanks for going to the trouble. Neat to see some numbers
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Please keep in mind, although I tried to be as consistent as possible, I didn't use a shooting machine. It was shot with fingers and Staci double checked my draw length mark on every shot.
As expected, the closer you move the silencers towards the arrow, the slower the speeds get. Given that you add the weight in the same areas, the more weight you add, the slower the speeds get.
Given my "unscientific" results, I've found that I can find a nice balance between speed and noise reduction for my bows.
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Pretty cool test Ry. So does this change anything in your set up permanently? Did you happen to notice how much noise or vibration changed when you changed placement or removed them all together. Maybe the bow got quieter, but slower. Faster= louder?
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Matty, years back I did a bunch of testing, including size of the cat whiskers. I found that I really like this set up and never found a reason to change. For strings in the 53"-55" lengths, I have them at 9" and 15".
The only problem is that I never posted my results back them. I had the chrono out, so I though I'd do a "quick test".
With my human ears, it did seem to get more quite as I moved the silencers towards the arrow. Vibration was hard to tell as I'm using a really heavy arrow for my wife's bow. I would like to re-do the test one day with a 9gpp set up.
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Way to go in getting this up here. I really enjoy this type of discovery. Thank you.
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Interesting........
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Thanks for the specs. Was always curious myself.
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Looks good. I use the same size and construction of puffs that you. I only use two on the string at the top and bottom quarter marks though. I think most people that report large losses of speed and ineffective noise reduction are using too big a piece. The small 1 1/4" puffs are the secret to using them.
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I agree Jon,
When I have more time, I need to test some cat whiskers that are long and bulky, maybe even "tied in a knot".
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Very interesting test!
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These tests are always good to have as reference and re tested with other methods. I don't have a chronograph. But this would be interesting to see how a bow performs with say string leeches or hush puppies, beaver balls or the like.
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We're on the same page Matty. I just need to buy all the current, popular silencing materials.
The only thing is that people may think my data is invalid because I choose not to use a shooting machine for my personal tests.
Maybe someone who has a machine would like to test this out for the Gang?
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Great stuff Ryan!!! Really appreciate all your work.
Bill
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Ryan, I think if your extreme spreads are pretty low it would indicate a machine is unnecessary. A machine might give slightly higher averages, but if the spread between shots is not varying too much then the overall results should be reliable.
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Thank you Monterey,
I totally agree, it's just I like to be cautious when I post "testing info" publicly.
I really enjoy testing with my tuned equipment and finger release. I had access to a hooter shooter, but I really didn't like how the arrows flew out of the machine given that it was a mechanical release. It gave me consistent data, but it wasn't giving me "real world" application of data.
I have my wife there with me on every shot and I have an arrow marked with my exact draw length. She either calls short, long or on during the whole time. I usually don't shoot until I'm "on" for a few counts. If she observed that I was too long or short right before the actual release, I'll scratch that speed. I also have an indoor lighting kit as it seems to be more consistent than the shade kit in the outdoors. On average, I'll hit a duplicate reading out of this system.
I appreciate your insight!
Thank you!
Ryan
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Appreciating that arrow speed is important, I've mostly been concerned with noise level. I use your 4 ball system and like it a lot.
What difference in fps would one need to see a difference in arrow speed or penetration? Bare string is out perhaps as noise would be too high (in most cases), but is 5 fps difference noticeable in speed or penetration? Although I appreciate this test had nothing to do with penetration. And there is probably a host of parameters around that one.
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Great review. The two big problems I see with cat whiskers is attaching them the wrong way, and leaving them way too long.
I'm glad you noted that the closer they get to the serving, the more speed is affected, even though they weigh very little.
That's one reason you don't normally gain much if any performance with a tiny string if you double-serve or use a really thick serving--all that extra weight goes to the most crucial point on the string.
I'm using a small ball on two points on the string and it works great.
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How do you get you cat whisker so nice?
They are perfectly round.
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Here you go RedShaft.
http://youtu.be/5SyMi9IOfNs
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Thank you Chad!
Yeah, when I first started bowhunting, I was taught to just tie a few long strips directly to the string (knotting the cat whisker itself). It was also recommended to tie them halfway between the string nock and arrow nock. Now those definitely robbed some speed
When I started to experiment, my goal was to find a way to have the same amount of silencing capabilities but without robbing performance.
For those that are wondering, this was just to experiment my preferred silencers with my strings. I understand there are other ways to silence, heavier arrows, different string materials, padding loops, string groove pads for recurves, etc.. When I perform my informal testing, I like to focus one one thing at a time.
Tom, yes I'm not testing for penetration, just trying to share how I came up with a silencing system without taking away from the performance of my strings. Although not necessary, I like to find the "best of both worlds" for my equipment.
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I understand there are other ways to silence, heavier arrows, different string materials, padding loops, string groove pads for recurves, etc..
We can exploit all of these to get the best from our equipment.
When I perform my informal testing, I like to focus on one thing at a time.
The best way to do it, IMO. That's how I tune--work on one aspect at a time.
Keep up the good work! I love to hear different opinions and tests on strings...especially when my results have been the same (makes me feel like I'm doing something right).
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Good Stuff Ryan. I used your method for tying on catwhiskers back in January-Sold on it! Thanks Again for the video.
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Thank you and you're welcome Denny!
Chad, we all turn to you as the Authority on string building! :thumbsup:
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Ryan,I've found the standard 5" piece of catwhisker tied in a knot slaps itself and adds noise to the shot, but also dampens some at the same time.
I watched your video some time back and use your method exclusively now. Looks better, works better, what's not to love?
A shooting machine is not too hard to make , I made one from an old c bow release, a boat winch with flat strap and some scrap 2x4s, works great!
Leans in corner and clamps to workbench when needed...
Thanks for the test and the vid on the silencer installation!
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Ryan, you referenced the speed. Was there a best location regarding sound abatement ?
ChuckC
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Originally posted by S2 Bowstrings:
Here you go RedShaft.
http://youtu.be/5SyMi9IOfNs
Great video, thanks.
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Thanks Kenny!
Chuck, I really need to do the test again to double check for sound. For fun, I like to get some kind of decibel meter (if thats the correct tool). It seems that with all the playing around I've done, 1/4 to 1/3 from the end loops seem to work the best if you're using one silencer on each end. Because I like to use two, I tie them about 1/8 and 1/4 or 1/6 and 1/3 from the end loops.
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really good info, thanks for sharing!
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:thumbsup:
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Originally posted by S2 Bowstrings:
Here you go RedShaft.
http://youtu.be/5SyMi9IOfNs
Thanks! Also thanks for taking the time to share your findings with us.
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I am to the point where I will only hunt with a bow that is dead quiet without string silencers...my stringmaker is very good at instinctively finding what will do that with a particular bow...I am sure that if Chad has a bow in hand he can do the same with BCY-X...that is truly the right material for many, if not most, bows
DDave
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That seems difficult with a recurve without extremely heavy arrows. How does he do it?
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I've been telling people for years how much effect relatively heavy string silencers and their position on the string have on performance. If you want the most from your bow, use the lightest weight silencers that do the job. Hint: It's not rubber.
To really see the influence, try the same test with bare shafts and see how much the spine is affected, too. I matched up a fellow once who had several sets of catwhiskers on his bow pushed towards the middle of the string, and when we removed them his arrow spine went up more than 20#! And yes, that can be extrapolated to arrow speed and penetration. I use several strands from an old FF bowstring and get almost no effect on performance because there is negligible weight added to the string. Relative to performance, adding weight to your bowstring is the same as adding weight to your arrow, robbing energy from the arrow.
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Relative to performance, adding weight to your bowstring is the same as adding weight to your arrow, robbing energy from the arrow.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. That's one of the reasons I don't like to double-serve a string, pad under the serving, etc. It's adding weight to the most crucial point on the string.
If you want the most from your bow, use the lightest weight silencers that do the job. Hint: It's not rubber.
It's not that cut-and-dried. How much does a set of silencers weigh? Depends on how much you use.
Everything else done correctly, I've found it only takes one very small set of cat whiskers to accomplish my goal of a very quiet shot. The dampening qualities of rubber are not matched by any other material I've used. SVL has made a literal fortune with rubber silencing gizmos, and other companies have followed their lead.
Not knocking other silencing materials--just quelling some misconceptions.