I saw this comment on a thread that was pulled, and it really bothered me...
"And why is shooting an arrow into a target any different than shooting an arrow into an animal."
Are we really this far behind that we are not passing along REAL information that's 'Bowhunting 101' to the new 'generation/converts'???
This comment was in the middle of page two of a 3 page thread and no one addressed this comment.
Are we as trad bowhunters also falling into the way of the complacent world?...if so, God help us.
I know the title of the thread didn't draw many that I know who WOULD have addressed this comment, but still.
He also went on to end with yet another mind blowing comment....that he had made is choice of a certain piece of equipment based not on performance but purely on 'looks'.
Where are we going as bowhunters and who's going to allow us to go there? Or, where are we headed and who's NOT going to let us go there???
Just venting over the shock I got from that comment..... :campfire:
It is extremely important for people who are new to the sport to find a good mentor. Trad hunters and shooters have to police each other so we can learn and improve.
Nothing wrong with venting.....
Vent away....
Your comments are extremely valid and noted. Everyone here should be aware. Thanks for the reminder.
Jake
I recently started a thread about the International Bowhunter Education Program on another site...I believe it is programs like this that promote an orderly and ethical approach to bowhunting that many new people to our sport ought to have access to...maybe we, as the old guard of ethical hunting, ought to be doing more to promote that program or others like it
DDave
Comments that will undoubtedly be repeated in time.
I know what you mean Terry. Obviously shooting a target is different than shooting a live animal. For shooting targets accuracy and forgiveness is the only thing that matters. When hunting you have to consider broadhead flight, accuracy, forgiveness, and penetration.
I do get where the poster is coming from though. It may have been an over simplified statement that could be interpreted the wrong way. I think what they meant is that in both hunting and target archery the goal is to put the arrow where you want it(kill zone or 10 ring). And as we always say on this site a well placed arrow and a sharp broadhead is the most important thing.
As far as target archery and bowhunting is concerned:
Bowhunters can learn a lot from target archers and vice versa.
I think a lot of bowhunters are starting to enjoy the sport of archery in the off season. Which is great because their accuracy will improve with the year round practice. Many of them are looking for setups that will work for their off season pursuits as well as in the woods.
This can get dangerous because arrows less than 9gpp might be ideal for field archery or 3D they are less than ideal for bowhunting. But I think most bowhunters turned target archers know the difference between a good target arrow and a good hunting arrow.
As Terry has sated above I am worried about the new bowhunters who think a 300 grain arrow is good for bowhunting. There is an archery DVD with two great archers and they advocate using light arrows for hunting. That's the kind of thing that makes me shake my head because a new person would just accept that as the truth.
For all you newbies reading this:
If you are shooting targets in the off season just to practice for hunting you might as well practice like you hunt and use your hunting arrows.
If you want to win tournaments and are serious about hunting you need to invest in two setups.
Sorry for the long post
What is archery coming too . I saw on a TV hunting show the Hunter explaining that a gut shoot with a expandibeal broadhead was a good shot and one he tyres for . ???????
We, as experienced hunters, need to be advocates for what we all call "hunting ethics." And we need to NOT take those ethics for granted. An animal that we are hunting is not just a target, it is a living, breathing creature. In the ultimate culmination of our hunting effort, that animal might die as the result of our hunt. When we engage in hunting, we take on a responsibility to conduct ourselves in a manner that is respectful of the life we might take and the clean kill we hope to make. All of us experienced hunters know that, and we need to pass that on to the next generation. Let's not take the ethical part of hunting for granted. Let's talk about it, and practice it for others to see.
I never saw the original thread and don't know what the original topic was or context that comment was made in. Maybe it was appropriate to the topic or point he was trying to make or maybe it was taken out of context. Of course maybe it wasn't and was in fact inappropriate. I don't know. That's one of the problems with the internet, social media, etc. It's real easy to get off track.
As far as the second comment, LOTS of people buy stuff based on looks and not performance, especially trad bows. It's human nature unfortunately. I don't know what the equipment was but hope it wasn't something crucially performance based like a broadhead
Anyone hunting yet? :rolleyes: Its another one of those points in the year where fellers are experiencing downtime doldrums. Lets get out there and learn from the real teachers, the animals. :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by Scott E:
As Terry has sated above I am worried about the new bowhunters who think a 300 grain arrow is good for bowhunting. There is an archery DVD with two great archers and they advocate using light arrows for hunting. That's the kind of thing that makes me shake my head because a new person would just accept that as the truth.
For all you newbies reading this:
If you are shooting targets in the off season just to practice for hunting you might as well practice like you hunt and use your hunting arrows.
If you want to win tournaments and are serious about hunting you need to invest in two setups.
Sorry for the long post
Very true. I see this in many shooting disciplines. What starts out as an idea for "practice" or what ever you want to call it for some real life scenario or whatever turns in to such a game that it no longer has anything like that benefit. I treat 3D as practice and nothing more. I don't bother to keep score, I know what I did right and what mistakes I made during a course.
Terry - You are right on however its the society we live in today. For example start a conversation on any forum about technology and its impact on the archery seasons across the US. What most people say "We'll its legal to use so what is the problem?" or the one that gets me is "We are all hunters and need to stand together". I beg to differ... when something that could impact the archery season we should call it out and stop being so politically correct.
Ron
Being a bowhunter takes a whole different set of skills and mindset from target archery in my book. They have the bow in common sure, but to me target archery is "civilized bowhunting" at best. Whether we like it or not the videos, dvd's, tv shows have an effect on our bowhunting culture/mindset. There is a lot of money in making us want the newest gadget.
Spot on Terry - I just deleted a long typed response here - but I will say this... the ethics we see portrayed on TV by the so called "stars" of bowhunting leave A LOT to be desired.
I agree and I'm generally dismayed at the plethora of posts about "the new bow just arrived" and all the comments are about how good it looks.
I care not a bit about a bows looks, it's a tool to be used for hunting. Target shooting with it is just to make sure I can hit what I'm hunting and in the most accurate and ethical way that I'm able to.
QuoteOriginally posted by RIng:
What is archery coming too . I saw on a TV hunting show the Hunter explaining that a gut shoot with a expandibeal broadhead was a good shot and one he tyres for . ???????
I can't hardly stand to watch them anymore. I had to turn one show off when the says "good shot" after clearly making a gut shot. :mad:
Terry.... yes, some folks are. We talked of this before.
A core group of experienced bowhunters put in the time and effort to learn and know quite a bit about the sport. But there are still many who really don't know, or why. Often they learned by reading and by watching videos only.
We need to teach them. We need to think about them in what we say and how we say it.
Example. . shots on game. We have had this discussion here as well over the years.
Yeah, sure, you can kill an animal hitting it nearly anywhere, with luck and with time. Often a LOT of time. But to espouse tough shots as OK on a site like this is not a good idea.
Newbies read what we say and take it for gospel. Because YOU are able to do something does not mean everybody is able. And frankly. . . well, its time to shut up.
Yup, you are correct in your assumption Terry.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by RIng:
What is archery coming too . I saw on a TV hunting show the Hunter explaining that a gut shoot with a expandibeal broadhead was a good shot and one he tyres for . ???????
That wasn't a hunting show, it was a killing show. I wouldn't watch a program with that killer in it again.
Bill
Astoundingly well said, Chuck.
Jake
Terry,
Guilty as charged. I didn't make the comment, BUT I read it. It made me pause. Inexcusably, I got distracted by something else, and to your point, didn't speak up. I was complacent. Thanks you for the reminder and the kick in the pants.
Kyle
One of the things we can do to combat these things is to get involved. The IBEP program is a good one and I volunteer to instruct it whenever I get the chance. Talk to the younger/newer hunters and share your experience. This stuff al helps.
I should have said something too. I was raised by three generations of men who were only at peace in the woods. They would have broken my bow and beaten me with it if I had made the comment. They would have been right, being my father, grandfather and great-grandfather. I would let them, too.
We are too complacent. I'm counting myself in there. I spend half of every Walmart trip explaining fast light arrows are not the answer to compound and crossbow shooters. Most of them marvel at the fact that my warbow is 70@36, and even though I can't shoot it forever I still practice with it so I can reliably hit with it. What has happened to hunting when poor form, poor equipment and poor shots are paraded as correct? If my granddad could still hunt, I think he'd cry.
I am not even a tenth of the hunter most of you are, but I work to get there. There is a pervasive culture of shirking the work to be a hunter but wanting all the benefits thereof. I thought the work was the benefit.
Shooting a deer is like shooting my deer target, which is like shooting my large stuffed target which is like shooting arrows in the air, except for the things that are way different. After killing dozens of deer with a life time of hunting, I am still amazed at their magnificent looks, their incredible awareness, their fantastic capabilities, and the way I about die every time one I want to shoot comes into bow range.
Shooting a game animal is nothing like shooting a target. Shooting a target is only preparation and practice, rather enjoyable at times, but still a long way from the real thing. No matter how hard we try to make target killing emulate hunting, it never gets there.
There is quite a lot of emphasis on pretty wood and pretty bows, it is quite natural to want our beloved weapons to look like works of functional art.
I remember skimming past the post, but I thought it may have been someone just being snarky and sarcastic.
QuoteAre we really this far behind that we are not passing along REAL information that's 'Bowhunting 101' to the new 'generation/converts'???
It's not "us". I'll explain.
I used to post regularly on a different site--a huge site with lots of different boards. Obviously I spent most of my time on their traditional archery board.
I was removed from that board because I often disagree with the resident "guru" and his groupies. This guy would often imply he had killed game while hunting, had coached "top ranked Olympic archers", etc. but when asked for specifics he'd disappear and his minions would monkey pile me for daring ask such of their leader.
The guy made ridiculous claims on a regular basis, and a few of us would politely call him out on them. I reckon we all got removed.
For example, he claimed that for every inch you draw past 28", you gain 10# worth of performance. I asked what happened if you pulled a 40@28 to 24". He ran away, the minions went nuts.
This guy has a book out on shooting, and it appears to be pretty popular. It's carried in the big traditional stores.
Problem is, there's enough accurate information in it to confuse someone who doesn't know the difference.
That book, and sites like that, are the big problem IMO. Not only do they promote idiocy and misinformation, they protect it from being corrected.
My opinion of course.
I'm pretty sure neither the author or mention of his book are allowed here, thank goodness.
I remember taking the "hunter safety course " gor Ca. Many years ago. The gentleman who taught the archery part stressed the sharpe Broadhead, well placed shot. It was on the test also. Doesn't every state require a hunter safety class? I know there are those who object to these classes but in my eye I see at least one way to get the message across about how bows and arrows work to harvest game.
Am I out of line here?
I read this after a bareshaft tuning session in the 97 degree Texas heat.........lol. This topic is very important to me as I begin passing on the bowhunting tradition to my sons (11 and 10 years old). I have always been a hunter and for the last 18 years that hunting has been with traditional archery gear. For me target archery is a means to hone and tune my skills for hunting. With that being said , target archery for my sons is all about learning form , arrow tuning , the limits and how to extend the limits of their shooting. I agree that there is an overabundance of junk info. for the newer crowd , from light flat shooting arrows, needing the fastest bow and so on. This sport requires and deserves a higher commitment. As for shooting targets being the same as harvesting animals.............There is no comparison and I find the statement to be immature at best.
Unfortunately just as the Wheel bow hunting has become more about the bow than the hunt so has Traditional bowhunting. This site and all the other "Trad" sites are filled with post showing off the latest and greatest. We can not be honest and say this sport is about a simple stick and string when many of the bows touted cost a small fortune and the materials are far from simple. The bow does not make the hunter. We don't talk enough about hunting methods,real woodsman skills. We talk about our new glitzy bow and the kill, nothing in between.
Didn't read the thread until it got locked. Then, after reading the last two pages, I just shook my head.
I'm looking forward to Sept 13th, opening day here in NC. I'll have 5" feathers. As a minimum, 4". I hope they're red soon after sunrise.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
QuoteAre we really this far behind that we are not passing along REAL information that's 'Bowhunting 101' to the new 'generation/converts'???
It's not "us". I'll explain.
I used to post regularly on a different site--a huge site with lots of different boards. Obviously I spent most of my time on their traditional archery board.
I was removed from that board because I often disagree with the resident "guru" and his groupies. This guy would often imply he had killed game while hunting, had coached "top ranked Olympic archers", etc. but when asked for specifics he'd disappear and his minions would monkey pile me for daring ask such of their leader.
The guy made ridiculous claims on a regular basis, and a few of us would politely call him out on them. I reckon we all got removed.
For example, he claimed that for every inch you draw past 28", you gain 10# worth of performance. I asked what happened if you pulled a 40@28 to 24". He ran away, the minions went nuts.
This guy has a book out on shooting, and it appears to be pretty popular. It's carried in the big traditional stores.
Problem is, there's enough accurate information in it to confuse someone who doesn't know the difference.
That book, and sites like that, are the big problem IMO. Not only do they promote idiocy and misinformation, they protect it from being corrected.
My opinion of course.
I'm pretty sure neither the author or mention of his book are allowed here, thank goodness. [/b]
Funny you say this. I have visited that site on limited occasion, but know precisely of whom you speak. It didn't take long to see the writing on the wall.
Never read the thread. But, from what the gist of the comments you stated Terry, yes< I am shocked too.
Now, there is nothing wrong with showing off a new bow, just like any fine made weapon, people are proud of them. But the fine weapon does not make the shooter or hunter, it is time spent with that weapon practicing and refining your form and shot. And time spent in the woods practicing and learning.
Unfortunately, in this modern world, with all of the "famous" supposed hunters and their sponsers. They espouse the latest and greatest this or that and say they will make you a better hunter or shot. NOT!!!!
YES, WE, must pass along our ethics and experience to whoever we can honestly teach and who will honestly listen and learn.
Now I stay away from the meat of things for the most part and do a lot of lurking, but as a "well rounded" individual who uses with both traditional and modern equipment I want to say that there are more than one reason for this kind of remarks.
One could be "Harvest Attitude" Where you manage your heard and you take a "Shooter or Target Buck". Another reason could be a confusion with equipment requirements. Back when I worked in a proshop I usually helped a lot of the traditional customers especially the newbies and my biggest challenge was getting them to understand that speed was not the big factor but rather arrow weight, bow tuning, and a quiet shot. And lastly There are those that either are happy to be misinformed or are stubbornly set in there ways, and you can't change or direct someone with that mindset.
Let me ask what it was pertaining to directly so we can understand where he was coming from?
I'm no. Sure about the comment on looks. I bought a knife off Ben Tendick off this site because of looks and I also bought my bow because I liked the way it looked. They perform the same as a buck 110 or a used old bow at a garage sale. Not sure what he meant by it by not reading it myself. If this were based on performance everyone would be striving for one particluar model of whatever and this world would be boring.
But I will say this from a outside the box view. This group we have here on trad gang is a very small minority. Small... We are completely overtaken by x bow and modern archery and technology. I unfortunately look at us as the fly fishing snobs that look down there noses at a spin fisherman. That is the view of a many folks on this site. Everything they say or do or the equipment they use it the way to go. And are against anything but that way of thought. Hence tradgang. This was built on a traditional way. A one directional way. And sometimes we need to step back and look outside our little box here and view things from a differan perspective and take others views and thoughts of gear and not hold it against them or there way of thinking. Unless it goes outside ethical taking of game.or game violations.
This site has a bit of a bad rap outside this box that is tradgang along with those that think it's my way or the highway. Now that is not meant to be rude. As I am here and enjoy this site very much. But it's not for everyone. And we have to be careful to judge those who are wanting to share our journey in traditional archery. Advise them and guide them along. Not stand back a throw stones. Remember we are hear because we are taking the pathe less traveled and we want to demonstrate to those that this is a path that is fun, rewarding, and challenging and there are those here willing to help those down that path and advise in the proper direction to go. That is how to be a good Stuart and a leader in traditional archery. An outside the box view. Bash away at me I have broad shoulders.
It is always good to have an open mind.
Well said Redshaft
QuoteOriginally posted by RedShaft:
Let me ask what it was pertaining to directly so we can understand where he was coming from?
I'm no. Sure about the comment on looks. I bought a knife off Ben Tendick off this site because of looks and I also bought my bow because I liked the way it looked. They perform the same as a buck 110 or a used old bow at a garage sale. Not sure what he meant by it by not reading it myself. If this were based on performance everyone would be striving for one particluar model of whatever and this world would be boring.
But I will say this from a outside the box view. This group we have here on trad gang is a very small minority. Small... We are completely overtaken by x bow and modern archery and technology. I unfortunately look at us as the fly fishing snobs that look down there noses at a spin fisherman. That is the view of a many folks on this site. Everything they say or do or the equipment they use it the way to go. And are against anything but that way of thought. Hence tradgang. This was built on a traditional way. A one directional way. And sometimes we need to step back and look outside our little box here and view things from a differan perspective and take others views and thoughts of gear and not hold it against them or there way of thinking. Unless it goes outside ethical taking of game.or game violations.
This site has a bit of a bad rap outside this box that is tradgang along with those that think it's my way or the highway. Now that is not meant to be rude. As I am here and enjoy this site very much. But it's not for everyone. And we have to be careful to judge those who are wanting to share our journey in traditional archery. Advise them and guide them along. Not stand back a throw stones. Remember we are hear because we are taking the pathe less traveled and we want to demonstrate to those that this is a path that is fun, rewarding, and challenging and there are those here willing to help those down that path and advise in the proper direction to go. That is how to be a good Stuart and a leader in traditional archery. An outside the box view. Bash away at me I have broad shoulders.
Hear, hear! Well said!
Funny, I was typing a response to that thread and when I hit "add reply" the thread was closed.
Anyone you have to explain this stuff too will probably never get it anyway.RC
It is possible to have different opinions and still be civil. There are are differences on here that do not turn into open warfare. For example, I like Hill style bows, and even though I have made some of my best hunting shots with recurves and set my record for consecutive hits on quarters tossed across my targets with a recurve, I just do not understand why anyone would want to hunt with those curvy things. I like rather heavy wood arrows, I am not so fond of rather heavy carbon arrows. Hunting with an arrow that weighs less than 500 grains is crazy, I keep telling myself that when I am looking for those whimpy 430 grain wood arrows in the dark after my wife shot them through a deer earlier that was already field dressed and tagged. She has never lost a deer that she hit, only 8 deer to date, but not one made it over 100 yards and most of those were shot with curvy bows. It is not apples compared to oranges, but there are a lot of ways to skin an apple and there are more variables often to consider, within reason, that don't always appear to fit common axioms. Debating is fun, arguing is a waste of time if it based on prejudices.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat but there are also a lot of better ways. On a trad site right now a fellow is telling everyone how he shoots expandable heads with light wt arrows and under 45 lbs from a tradbow. He says he has killed deer with this setup and I don`t doubt that he has. But is his setup one I would point people too..heck no.Thats not what bothers me..what bothers me is no one is saying much about it.
I seldom post anymore for different reasons but to see people with a few kills giving expert advise kinda upsets me.A fella can kill ten deer and be "lucky" on everyone of them. I shot over 9 in a row before I learned to shoot lower. Was I a bad bowhunter...no I was a brand new bowhunter with little experience. No internet of magazines only the school of hard knocks to learn from.That was over 300 big game animals ago .I wonder how things would have turned out for me if I had heard some of the advise given on trad forums by "experts" these days.
Anybody that thinks shooting at a rubber deer is the same as a live one has shot at very few live ones and I for one take little stock in his opinion on bowhunting.RC
I agree completely with smoking joe's above comments about ethics.
I'm happy to say that over the last few years we've had many clients pass up shots on hogs because the angle wasn't right or it was tad too far. Some locals would say, "awww it's just a hog". Really?
I like the old adage, Character is how you behave when no one is watching.
It is our responsibility to self police and teach.
I missed the thread and the post but if that stuff is left to the mods to find, then we failed as a group. Thanks Terry for pointing it out.
What Charlie said above.........
Without having read the post in order to get the context of it I can't say anything one way or the other.
Is it possible he was saying that whether target or animal, you need to do your best to be accurate?
Anything you choose to let an arrow fly at becomes a target, oh be it - the live animal target requires & deserves a lot more consideration.
RC. . . you know I was going to battle with him. Problem is, folks look up to people that yell and beat their chests, not so much to those who are quiet and watch. . . at least, from the start.
When that sort of person talks, lots of folks listen. As I said above, there are lots of ways to kill a deer. You can count on some of them, and you can really hope on 'others. Kill one using the 'others and it helps you grow bigger. . . (you knows), and soon you are telling others that that is the shot to take.
We need to teach a beginner the right way. . and there is a right way, for much of this.
As they get into it and gain experience, well they can do as they please and they have earned some of that right.
ChuckC
The comments are disturbing enough (if not taken out of context). Clearly the person who made them is ignorant about hunting versus target shooting. Perhaps this person has never killed an animal with a bow, let alone a traditional bow. If they had, they would know that they're completely different.
The more important point, which you so clearly stated, was that no one called this person on it. You're reminder that we, as a community, need to hold one another accountable for such comments and that we, as a community, need to preach ethical game harvests is right on! That is the essence of who we are as a group!
Thanks for the reminder!
I avoid threads like that....I bite my tongue. I'm sure my comments would get pulled. That's just me, an old time bowhunter with different ethics and beliefs.
It's also very frustrating when giving a Bowhunter Education class and 99% of the students shoot compounds and all their "beliefs" are based on all the hunting shows on TV. You just hope the information we provide sinks in, especially on shot placement and the need for sharp broadheads.
QuoteOriginally posted by RedShaft:
Let me ask what it was pertaining to directly so we can understand where he was coming from?
I'm no. Sure about the comment on looks. I bought a knife off Ben Tendick off this site because of looks and I also bought my bow because I liked the way it looked. They perform the same as a buck 110 or a used old bow at a garage sale. Not sure what he meant by it by not reading it myself. If this were based on performance everyone would be striving for one particluar model of whatever and this world would be boring.
But I will say this from a outside the box view. This group we have here on trad gang is a very small minority. Small... We are completely overtaken by x bow and modern archery and technology. I unfortunately look at us as the fly fishing snobs that look down there noses at a spin fisherman. That is the view of a many folks on this site. Everything they say or do or the equipment they use it the way to go. And are against anything but that way of thought. Hence tradgang. This was built on a traditional way. A one directional way. And sometimes we need to step back and look outside our little box here and view things from a differan perspective and take others views and thoughts of gear and not hold it against them or there way of thinking. Unless it goes outside ethical taking of game.or game violations.
This site has a bit of a bad rap outside this box that is tradgang along with those that think it's my way or the highway. Now that is not meant to be rude. As I am here and enjoy this site very much. But it's not for everyone. And we have to be careful to judge those who are wanting to share our journey in traditional archery. Advise them and guide them along. Not stand back a throw stones. Remember we are hear because we are taking the pathe less traveled and we want to demonstrate to those that this is a path that is fun, rewarding, and challenging and there are those here willing to help those down that path and advise in the proper direction to go. That is how to be a good Stuart and a leader in traditional archery. An outside the box view. Bash away at me I have broad shoulders.
Agreed!
I did read the entire thread, and when I saw the title of the thread I knew exactly what was going to happen as I've been here long enough to have seen it happen MANY times before. And sure enough...
I don't remember who wrote it. And unless he comes on here to defend himself... I'm thinking the point he was trying to make has been taken out of context. At the same time I think he was defending a thought of being labeled a "target shooter" over a "hunter" based literally on a decision that is his to make.
Although I would not choose to use "the equipment" he chooses , it doesn't make me right or better. It was simply one mans view.
What I think we have to realize (and often forget)here is that we are reading words typed by others. We can't hear tones in their voices or see body language in what they are trying to relay. As I read his post... I did not believe he was meaning what he said was a question of Ethics, but more about being mis categorized.
I hope for his sake if he is reading this that.. He does not think that TRADGANG hates him for his words.... We are not that group...
And if you feel compelled to defend yourself on this forum...whoever you were. Don't be afraid to come forward and do so....
QuoteOriginally posted by RedShaft:
Let me ask what it was pertaining to directly so we can understand where he was coming from?
I'm no. Sure about the comment on looks. I bought a knife off Ben Tendick off this site because of looks and I also bought my bow because I liked the way it looked. They perform the same as a buck 110 or a used old bow at a garage sale. Not sure what he meant by it by not reading it myself. If this were based on performance everyone would be striving for one particluar model of whatever and this world would be boring.
But I will say this from a outside the box view. This group we have here on trad gang is a very small minority. Small... We are completely overtaken by x bow and modern archery and technology. I unfortunately look at us as the fly fishing snobs that look down there noses at a spin fisherman. That is the view of a many folks on this site. Everything they say or do or the equipment they use it the way to go. And are against anything but that way of thought. Hence tradgang. This was built on a traditional way. A one directional way. And sometimes we need to step back and look outside our little box here and view things from a differan perspective and take others views and thoughts of gear and not hold it against them or there way of thinking. Unless it goes outside ethical taking of game.or game violations.
This site has a bit of a bad rap outside this box that is tradgang along with those that think it's my way or the highway. Now that is not meant to be rude. As I am here and enjoy this site very much. But it's not for everyone. And we have to be careful to judge those who are wanting to share our journey in traditional archery. Advise them and guide them along. Not stand back a throw stones. Remember we are hear because we are taking the pathe less traveled and we want to demonstrate to those that this is a path that is fun, rewarding, and challenging and there are those here willing to help those down that path and advise in the proper direction to go. That is how to be a good Stuart and a leader in traditional archery. An outside the box view. Bash away at me I have broad shoulders.
I guess I'm one of the few in disagreement with Redshaft. While we as a group may not choose to use modern equipment, I don't think the men and women on Tradgang are snobs (as you put it- the perception that is). In fact, the people here are some of the most generous and accepting people. Accepting of our differences, techniques and gear and generous to a fault. If there is a perception that TG'ers are snobs and judgmental, I don't know where that comes from. Jealousy? Insecurity? I don't know. I'm not trying to put words in Terry's mouth, but his point was that we need to challenge those comments. Everyone here, with a very small exception, would do so in a non-threatening, respectful manner. That said, I think you may have gone astray on your point by opening up a perception, real or imagined, that we on TG are viewed as elitists. WE ARE NOT! We simply have chosen to pursue our own journey in a fun, challenging, and above all, ethical way. That is what defines us as a group. If others don't like it, TOUGH! We should not apologize to anyone for who we are. I do, however, agree that we need to disagree and challenge one another respectfully and accept the entire bowhunting community as a whole. We are sportsmen and sportswomen with a common love of archery.
Its funny so many that didnt read the thread jumped on board to bash. I read the thread and the comment that was made between hunting and targets was to achieve good arrow flight no matter what size feathers you are shooting and what your objective is either hunting or target shooting.
I always wondered what Facebook was like.
PLEASE NOTE: I need to clarify... I didn't accurately read all of the text I quoted before I foolishly quoted it. I rarely sense "snobbery" from the fine people on this site.
I just caught the part that said we need to mentor others who come to this site. I learned so much from the kind folks on this site, and I feel the need to pass on the kindness!
I did read some of the post, and bit my tongue too. It was about using itty bitty feathers(2") for hunting. When questioned about forgivness of larger feathers, release under real world conditions, ect, that's when the comment was made.
Basically it was whats the difference between shooting at a deer and a target?
And that right there is what Terry was talking about, I think. Read the last sentence of RC's post. It pretty much sums it up.
I thought this need for speed thing was for "other " types of equipment. This troubles me a bit. I hear these "trad police" comments, but then again, there are some things we know, don't we?
Like getting close. Inside 20 yards close. And shoot as many pounds as we can handle. Key word being handle. And shoot a heavy arrow with a proven, sharp broadhead, with enough fletching to help correct our mistakes.
Bottom line: Deer move, and they do it fast. I don't care how good of a shot you are, long pokes at whitetails with trad bows are disasters looking for a place to happen.
>>>Come to the Water<<<
Often times when the conversation has run dry, the remedial responses and posts tend to digress.
An alarming revelation is often experienced during lulls and even to be expected at any time. From ground control to Major Tom --As humans, it should be no surprise that we may have our feathers ruffled when exposed to the diversity of human nature. The way of the traditional is held sacred, while our openness, acceptance and tolerance are often challenged as we too strive to develop into an aggrandized complete individual.
Through the integrity, camaraderie and spiritual adhesion of The Trad Gang family, I saw a man who was brought to life...when away, the Trad Gang presence still lingers. For I remain captivated by the resonating light of the Traditional and staunchly refuse to be suppressed by my childhood dreams of the past. We have been sent an angel.
We have the power to choose to be angry for 'anger' is a natural emotion. Being angry at the wrong time may be counterproductive. It is also, quite easy to complacently view such comments so far out of the grey area as "how stark is the here and now". Alienation would be unjust as we may deny the true treasures of the traditional way. May we successfully assemble the lost sheep for life is merely a moment in space.
Sitting on our laurels, and accepting possible hints of blasphemy is the time to heed a certain call. Being inspired to both positively and collectively educate and offer secure guidance should provide a way to the dawn of the light and passage out of the dark...such that they may have the opportunity to dip themselves in magic waters.
I read the whole thread too. Like I say, I was trying to post when it was closed. My opinion is that it was misunderstood (in the thread) for the most part. It was his stance that the 2" feathers worked for him. He wasn't really trying to "push" that idea on anyone. It was pointed out that not everyone could or should try those feathers and that it was possible for them to be a recipe for disaster. Initially, both points were well made.
Double post
Interesting thread. Some of the best of what I like on this forum and some of what I like the least.
I feel no pressure to make a "killing" shot on my animal targets. I know that if I fail I'll get an immediate do-over. I know if I fail I won't be obligated to spend the rest of the day or longer following up that shot (and stinking up my hunting area). I know I won't be thinking about that poor shot until "next season" (or longer).
I have made some poor shots in my 46 years of bowhunting. I am proud to say that I have not made a poor shot DECISION since 1985 on a running antelope (thank God I missed it!) I made another poor shot decision before that one, in 1971 (my 2nd year of bowhunting at age 17 -- Missed that one too!)
I am one who gets a kick out of a good feeling and good looking bow, IF it works for me. (Same with my squirrel rifles). I love beautiful woods and craftsmanship. The good news is one can very readily have both these days; good shooting and good looking. In truth, there is a popular style of "traditional" bow that I can't stand the looks of and wouldn't keep if it was given too me. (In fact, one was given too me and I sent it to Alaska.)
Count me among those who will never criticize the compound bow. As a retired "bowhunter biologist" I appreciate what that style of bow did for bowhunting in terms of making our numbers a force to deal with.
Finally, I'm in agreement with a lot of the comments about several of those folks in front of the cameras. I am quickly developing a distaste for all white-tail deer hunting shows just as I lost interest in bass fishing TV and shotgun hunting turkey shows long ago. I'd rather watch CNN (yuck) than those shows. And I LOVE to hunt white-tail deer!
But, some of "our" heroes have done and will do things while hunting that would not fit my personal ethic -- but that's why it is MY ethic. I don't insist anyone, not even my son adopt my stance on such issues (as long as laws aren't broken).
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:
But, some of "our" heroes have done and will do things while hunting that would not fit my personal ethic -- but that's why it is MY ethic. I don't insist anyone, not even my son adopt my stance on such issues (as long as laws aren't broken).
:thumbsup:
My post had nothing to do with heros, pretty bows or ethics, it was about common sense, bowhunting 101, and advice based on lack of knowledge and experience.
But then again, since others brought it up....if *I* don't pass on my personal morals and ethics onto my daughters .....who will???
See what I mean?
DON'T get pissed. ....THINK about it.
:campfire:
As with most threads, not just this one, we digress and some of digressions must sometimes also be met with opinions, counter or otherwise. If not, then by ignoring them we imply agreement. Which by the way, I think is part of what the original concern was drawing attention too.
I certainly agree with the moral responsibility landing squarely on the parent's shoulders. I count on no one other than my wife and I to provide moral guidance (and we are guided by One much higher) to our children. That "it takes a village garbage" is a cop out by parents who won't shoulder the load. My point is as the children age my direction becomes less a requirement than passionate guidance. Choice becomes and important part of the equation.
Often times the best direction I (we?) can provide is by example, whether to offspring, friends, or mere acquaintances.
I think Terry has set this up as a very thought provoking topic. A lot of the issues we see today boils down to society in general of being complacent, politically correct and in some instances just lazy. Unfortunately a lot of the root cause issues come from television as bowhunting is nothing more than a marketing machine and having to get the kill on camera. Even the so called professional hunters on television don't even know what the true identity of archery really is and couldn't explain it. All they know is the equipment they choose to hunt with pays the bills and allows for premium guided hunts. I see very little talk about the challenge anymore or even a story line and this resonates within the general bowhunting crowd.
I had a compound bowhunter the other night ask me if the longbow is effective at taking deer. My response was that the longbow at times in a hunting situation is much better weapon than the compound. Had to explain this in more detail but regardless he got the point. It's all about having patience and provide education to people who don't know.
Ron
I have many thoughts on this subject, but none of them are clear enough in my mind to put them forth with brevity right now.
I do however want to say thank you Terry, for your commitment to this sport. Traditional archery has been bettered for many by the wealth of knowledge that is TradGang. There may be many uneducated people still in this world, but a lot of the guys here are doing their part to pass on the traditional torch, and in part it is because of your efforts.
Its something that has frustrated mankind for ages. IE: How does one pass down wisdom. Knowledge is easily obtained especially in the age of the internet. Wisdom seems to be a much more rare commodity and is difficult to pass on to youngers. Many dont seem to be able to even see the difference between knowledge and wisom and that may be a function of youth in the end. I have never met a wise youngster to be honest. Smart yes but not wise.
Thanks everyone for your posts. Those, along with the emails, shows there's a lot of you that 'GET IT'.....I just hope there is enough.
I'll get to all those that emailed me as soon as I can. Right now I get to spend the next two days with my oldest daughter. ....so that's what I'm going to do.
:campfire:
It seems that more and more people think that they are doing something when they siting on their butts being entertained. While I have no opinion if someone wants to have a target weight setup for shooting tournaments, it is at that level only a shooting competition, a game with pretend animals. It is also true that people don't seem dumber and and less engaged in reality, they are dumber and less engaged in reality, and there are a number of real reasons for that.