I'd noticed one of my two longbows was sounding a bit noisy lately. my other longbow is very quiet. The only difference is that it has a Dacron string. So I made one for the first longbow and wonder of wonders, it's now whisper quiet. So I did the same for one of my recurves and same effect. A lot quieter.
OK that's nice but it will shoot a lot slower. So I set up the chronograph and blew several shots thru it with my recurve using both strings. I was amazed to see there was only about a 4 foot-per-second difference. I ran the specs thru Stu's calculator and the relative difference was about 4 fps there as well. My setup is a 62" 50lb checkmate Hunter I, shooting split fingers off the shelf with 520 grain spruce arrows 27 3/4" long.
So for a sacrifice of 4 FPS I get a quiet bow, and much less chance of damage. Seems like a deal to me.
Now I'm no trajectory expert but 4fps seems like at hunting distances there would be some but not very much trajectory difference. Anyone have any ides what the difference would be? If it's insignificant what's the big deal about fast-flite???
Unless it's significant I'm think I'm gonna stick with dacron
Am I missing something here???
In my limited experience I find that unlike dacron, not all fast flite material is created equal. I shoot Hill bows almost exclusively and the difference between dacron and a D10 SBD string is like night and day. D10 is way more quiet and less shocky. Other fast flite materials I've tried aren't much different than dacron at all. I haven't tested with a chrony but I'd I'd use an SBD over dacron even if it slowed it down just because it's so much more pleasant to shoot on all my Hills. Just my opinion, YMMV.
You might just be a good string maker. A quality made string will do wonders. I have had better performance, in terms of less noise, less vibration, and less creep, with FF material.
Fast flight materials- little to near zero stretch allowing more consistent brace height retention- yes once Dacron stretches enough it generally stops but..., also more durable/wear resistant, and in my experience, unfortunately opposite to yours, reduced shot vibration/ hand bump/shock on every bow I have put it on and made them quieter. Fast flight to me has a higher pitched tone on the shot than Dacron, that very well could be what you're perceiving, but overall noise level should be lower with a properly made FF string on a FF approved bow. The comparison that proved my theory for ME was when I did the experiment on selfbows. Some guys swear up and down that Dacron is best for selfbows, but go over to Primitive Archer, almost all of them run FF if they use a man made material. Linen in medieval England was actually a no-stretch material, it either worked or it broke, and amazingly got stronger when wet. Animal sinew strings were also low to no stretch, so really FF is perfect for selfbows. I have taken hundreds of shots and never had a problem. Always noticed less vibration and noise. I actually have had so many frustrations using Dacron, whether it be stretching or inability to maintain exact brace each time stringing the bow, to abrasions, to increased handshock that I will happily accept rolls of the stuff to burn it. BUT everyone has what works for them. By all means, if you have a good thing going, keep at it. And yes, the speed difference is not that great if you use a FF string with same strand count as the Dacron, but go down in strand count and make it skinnier and see what happens. 10-12 is a nice number for a preview. If your bow is under 55# you can even try 6, its wild. Mind you, there are many different FF materials with different diameters. My personal favorite right now is Brownells Rhino at 12 strands.
I shoot Dacron on my bows. I think it comes down to preference. I like a softer feel and the dull thud Dacron makes. On my hill styles, a Dacron string with wool puffs is about as quiet as quiet gets. I don't notice handshock being much different with either type string. I also like the nock fit better for my wood arrows. I don't need to pad loops or double serve.
It does stretch more than FF, but how long does it take to twist the string a little?
As for trajectory, it matters little at the distances I hunt. VERY rarely will I shoot a live critter over 20 yards, and usually closer. I think you'll quickly adjust to whatever trajectory your bow has.
One of the things missing in the OP is the number of strands. I would wager that an 8 strand D-10 or BCY-X picks up more than 4 fps over a 16 strand B-50 string. It's hard to compare apples to apples when one of the apples isn't an apple.
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I find the opposite to be true, when I switched from Dacron to D-10, I never looked back, faster, quieter and less vibrations regardless of the bow.
It also costs LESS! I get by with less than half of the strands Using D-10. I have a 6 strand on my 49# Longbow I most often shoot.
I prefer a FF type material on all my bows.I find it quieter and the bow feels more solid.Not springy like Dacron.I don't shoot a FF type string for any performance increase,but for the feel of the shot.Like said not all low stretch strings are the same.
QuoteOriginally posted by Paul_R:
In my limited experience I find that unlike dacron, not all fast flite material is created equal. I shoot Hill bows almost exclusively and the difference between dacron and a D10 SBD string is like night and day. D10 is way more quiet and less shocky. Other fast flite materials I've tried aren't much different than dacron at all. I haven't tested with a chrony but I'd I'd use an SBD over dacron even if it slowed it down just because it's so much more pleasant to shoot on all my Hills. Just my opinion, YMMV.
I am not a string maker at all but I have a friend who is very good at it...I am his research and development guy...I am shooting his HMPE strings on most of my bows now including several that were designed long before those strings were available...his material of choice is 8125g but we are about to embark on an adventure with BCY-X...if you read some of the posts by LBR, aka Chad, you will see that some of the newer materials appear to be significantly better in several ways...to simply compare B50 to Fastflight is a major simplification of a complex situation...true you are comparing dacron to first generation fastflight, but we are way past that with some of the blends
DDave
The speed difference comes down to the weight of the string. Reolace a 14 strand B50 with 14 strand FF. And you will get just about nothing. Replace it with an 8 strand D 10 and the difference starts to show up and the D 10 string is stronger and quieter on most bows. IMO
If you really want speed work on your release, the difference there can be about 20 FPS! :campfire:
If your happy with your results......use what you like!
b50 requires a higher brace height for my personal preference. Get it set right and I've not shot very many recurves that b50 wont shoot clean.
I've shot some recurves that like one or the other better. I let the bow tell me.
With the newer ff materials out on the market now I have been using ff more than before.
Every longbow I've shot I prefer a ff string.
I prefer the FF on my warbow to the B50 on my horse bow, God rest its soul. It just feels better, and no creeping brace height is nice when you're getting well north of fifty pounds pull.
I want to try BCY-X, I just have to get some to try spinning an Asian style string with.
I prefer FF. The only bows I own that I shoot Dacron on are my older Bears.
What kind of "FF"? I don't know if the FF brand is even produced anymore? The original formula is still available from BCY as 652 Spectra, but I don't use it.
"So for a sacrifice of 4 FPS I get a quiet bow, and much less chance of damage."
I've seen no verifiable proof one way or the other than a bow's life is shortened by HMPE materials if the bow and the string are both properly made. I've broken a lot of bows that had Dacron strings on them. I don't recall off the top of my head ever breaking one with a HMPE string on it.
"Now I'm no trajectory expert but 4fps seems like at hunting distances there would be some but not very much trajectory difference. Anyone have any idea what the difference would be?"
It's not much. For me, if I were worried about 4 fps I'd choose a different weapon.
That's not the reason I use HMPE strings. I like the durability, the lack of stretch and creep, and the feel. Properly made with the right material, it will be as quiet as any. You don't have to go super low with strand count to get a quiet string.
As Bjorn noted, if you really want to pick up performance work on your release.
I shoot d97 simply because I hate armguards and stretching strings.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
The speed difference comes down to the weight of the string....
I disagree. There is a great article in TBM that methodically compared string materials and string weights and how those differences affected FPS.
The tester found (and the string manufacturers agreed), that it is string material, not weight, that affects performance in regards to FPS the most and by far. It has been proven that the gains from reducing weight are very small compared to gains from material.
This myth will never die and the belief always is supported with more anecdotal "proof". But when actually tested under controlled conditions big speed gains from weight reduction are not true. They even found adding string silencers had very small affects on speed.
Joshua
Interesting. Either way, I do agree with one thing--you won't generally get a big increase in performance by dropping down to a tiny string made of the same material.
It varies depending on the bow design, draw weight, draw length, arrow weight, etc. etc. etc. There is no one "hard and fast" rule here. Lower draw weights seem to benefit more from lighter strings, but there are still other variables.
One other big thing I forgot to mention. When swapping from Dacron/polyester to HMPE, you generally get a noticeable reduction in hand shock--especially if the bow is a design known for shock.
Also LBR (Chad) brings up a good point, "What kind of FF". Not everything that isn't Dacron is Fast flight. It's become a general term and it isn't all created equal. Another thing is going to a skinnier string, the least amount of strands a bow can safely use, does little for performance, but it does vibrate different, and it plays a different "note" and the less mass WILL reduce hand shock, and that can all be desirable. Some will think it makes less noise and some will think it makes more but all that can only be measured by a decimeter, different individuals have different noise sensitivity to each of the 8 notes in a scale. If I find a string that makes a B flat on release it might sound better to me and worse to someone else. We all have our "default key" we talk in and find the most pleasant. (Sorry I got off on a different rabbit trail here, but I'm also a musician of sorts) Anyhow the short of it, if the string makes a G note and you (unconsciously) think the G note sucks, you probably think it's too loud.
I will say that when I went o a big ol production dacron string on my longbow to a nice hand made dacron string, the difference in pleasure at the shot was noticeable. One was like shooting an arrow using a hawser. Everything sucked about that string.
There will always be a little witchery in string making. And lets be thankful for that!
Joshua
Totally agree with what Chad says above:
"When swapping from Dacron/polyester to HMPE, you generally get a noticeable reduction in hand shock--especially if the bow is a design known for shock."
I've made 12- or 14-strand (loops padded with B50) 8125 flemish-twist strings for several of my Hill-style longbows (a couple of Howard Hills, 2 Jerry Hills, a Pearson Ol' Ben 5000 and a Binghams kit bow) that had Dacron strings and my experience has been that the 8125 string ALWAYS reduces hand shock on these bows. My 68" 50# Hill Big Five had very, very little hand shock with a B50 string, but with the 8125 string it has virtually none. The 68" Jerry Hills had a fair amount of hand shock with B50 string, but the 8125 string really tames the hand shock-- these have become a couple of my favorite shooters.
I put phenolic/hardwood tip overlays on the Pearson Ol' Ben and Jerry Hill Yellow Hawk because they had no tip overlays or wedges, but that probably wasn't necessary as long as the HMPE string loops are padded with several strands of B50 or B55.
The only reason I use 8125 instead of D97 or other HMPE material is because it's what I've got on hand. I expect that I'd get similar results with other HMPE materials.
QuoteSome will think it makes less noise and some will think it makes more but all that can only be measured by a decimeter,...
EXACTLY! I think this is where a lot of confusion comes in. You also have variables like how good your release is, arrow weight, nock fit, different gloves and tabs, etc.
The following is from one of the top guys at BCY.
QuoteWe've tested everything extensively with our Instron tester and with basic shot repetition. Obviously there's a big performance and strength difference between B55 and our blended materials. But say, comparing BCY-X to 452X, string weight is important, but really doesn't do a lot unless the difference is huge. ... the bow itself also makes a huge difference. Some bows just shoot better with a certain material and certain size string and not so well with something else.
Most of their testing is done with wheel bows, but in my experience the exact same holds true with traditional bows. Way too many variables for a simple test to cover it all. An entire book could be devoted to the subject and still not cover it all.
My goal is to find a happy medium that works well on any bow. So far that has always been a moderate strand count--not too heavy, not too light--and it can vary depending on the bow.
With very small diameter materials like 8190 and BCY-X, the strand count for a particular draw weight appears to be less important, at least on most bows, versus larger materials like Dynaflight '97.
18-20 strands isn't tiny, but it isn't huge either, and so far works really well with light and medium weight bows. I haven't done anything with heavy weights yet, but have no reason to think it will be any different with those.
Chad
I'll also note that the big differences in HMPE materials are stretch, creep, durability, and noise. Sometimes these differences aren't so big, and all of them can be affected by how well (or not so well) the string is made.
100% HMPE or UHMWPE materials may show a slight benefit in performance, because Vectran is heavier. However, in a material like BCY-X the percentage of Vectran is so low (17%) that the difference is hardly noticeable even on wheel bows, much less ours.
Materials with Vectran seem to be a little quieter--or maybe it's just a lower pitch. I don't have the instrument to measure noise, so I'm going by the human ear--mine and many others.
Vectran will make a material more stable, especially when the temperatures go up. Even the highest grade of Dyneema (SK90) can be affected by heat. The lower the strand count, the heavier the draw weight, and/or the longer the string the more it will stretch/creep in higher temps. Not a lot and nowhere near the amount you will get from Dacron/polyester, but more than you will get from the HMPE/Vectran blends.
In the end, shoot what you like. If you can, try out different materials and strand counts and see what works best for you. Don't base your decisions on smoke and mirrors and secret formulas. Ask lots of questions. Don't be afraid to go to the source. I know BCY is great about answering questions about their materials.
Chad