What are your thoughts on all bamboo limb longbows? Meaning limb cores and veneers. Likes and or dislikes? Thanks in advance for any input
Mark
They look great and shoot even better.
Some traditionalists dislike it and point out that it is a grass not a wood, but Howard Hill loved the stuff and so do many others...I'm sure they were on to something. I do enjoy some pretty Tonkin cane under clear glass, especially if the bamboo has some nice honey color or pigment to it, though I will admit it's not my first choice, I still gravitate toward exotic veneers. Various wood cores can be very smooth and offer an outstanding shot experience. Boo is known to feel quick and snappy, I enjoy it. I also enjoy maple, yew, or ash cores and feel that they can be almost as quick but offer a bit softer of a shot feel which is quite pleasant. Mixed cores are also nice. Yew and boo and maple and boo are excellent combos. Or boo and carbon with no glass.
Boo is tried and true, aka GOOD STUFF, but certainly don't be afraid to try other things, yew is great, and I also love a good maple or ash core bow.
***I have edited a few of my comments because as someone further down pointed out, I may not have a 360 degree understanding of the dynamics at play just yet. I have my personal observations, but numbers don't lie. Time for some fact checking.
I have a Pronghorn takedown with Tonkin bamboo limbs. Very nice looking bow and really nice subdued finish. It seems to have good performance with heavier arrows but that is just my perception, not based on any scientific measurement.
It took me awhile to get used to the bow , mainly because it is about 5 pounds over what I used to consider my max weight in a bow- 55#. This one is about 60# at my draw length.
Now after regularly shooting it this summer, it doesn't feel much different than my 53 and 55 lb bows. I can post pics later if you want to see them.
Your right, bamboo is a grass not a wood. Best natural carbon fiber. Been used by bowyers for years. I like the amber look under clear glass.
My first glass bow that I built was all bamboo. Aboo cores and bamboo veneers with bocote riser and overlays. It is one of KennyM's designs. I am very pleased with it. Smooth and quiet. Seems pretty fast to me too. I posted pics in the bowyer bench under " first glass bow"
I like bamboo. I have 5 Hill bows, have had 2 Quillian Bamboo Longhunters, and currently have a Northern Mist Shelton, all with boo cores. I have a Kolomi with bamboo back and belly over a Persimmon core. Bamboo is smooth, powerful, and durable. In my opinion it is the best bow "wood" out there - yeah, I know it is actually a grass.
Only the Quillian bows are r/d design, but on these and the straight bows, the performance is equally good.
Bamboo is your friend......... :thumbsup:
I have a Hill Wesley Special with bamboo cores and veneers under clear glass. Shoots and looks great
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My first Maddog was like that. Bow shoots great. I liked the idea of a bamboo bow because I build bamboo fly rods.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Prairiedrifter/bows/Picture003-1.jpg) (http://s257.photobucket.com/user/Prairiedrifter/media/bows/Picture003-1.jpg.html)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Prairiedrifter/bows/Picture002.jpg) (http://s257.photobucket.com/user/Prairiedrifter/media/bows/Picture002.jpg.html)
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Prairiedrifter/bows/Picture012-1.jpg) (http://s257.photobucket.com/user/Prairiedrifter/media/bows/Picture012-1.jpg.html)
Mowhawk bows are exceptional ... mild R/D and boo cores-veneers just like you requested. These bows are quiet, shoot very well - they have all you have inquired about. Lastly, I can attest to their deer harvesting qualities. :thumbsup:
http://www.mohawkbows.com/
Good Luck,
Bob.
QuoteOriginally posted by nineworlds9:
It is very lightweight and will reduce the overall weight of a limb, which in turn aids increasing speed and recovery to some degree. Wood cores will be heavier, mass-wise.
I hate to burst your bubble bro...but the Actionwood Bamboo commonly used in most bows today is actually heavier than maple in mass weight. i could give you a long list of core woods that are much lighter than bamboo.... But.... bamboo is harder and has more density than oak. It's actually pretty cool stuff. Easy to work with and very consistent.... But the stuff isn't light weight material at all.... get two pieces of the stuff identical in size and weigh them some time...
The main reason bamboo cores are so popular with archers and bowyers alike, is the consistency in density. It provides a very smooth draw due to it's excellent tensile strength, and somewhat soft compression properties...... Bowyers love the stuff because of its longevity, consistency, and the smoothness it adds to your limbs draw cycle. The laminated action boo also adds good stability to the limbs...... Hands down the stuff is hard to beat for making everyone happy, but i think its over rated in some respects.
Bamboo cores for long bows are great... But i'd take good old maple cores, or even actionwood over bamboo for recurve limbs which are much thinner any day.
I guess Kirkll sums it up pretty good. I love boo cores but agree...I like maple as well. Either one and you'll have yourself a fine bow core.
Kris
Lol Kirk very interesting. So I've got it all wrong eh? I trust your know how and I'm no scientist I'm seriously just going by what I have felt in my hands and shot. The bamboo bows or limbs always feel lighter to me. Could it be that you have to use less GLASS???? Is that the difference I'm feeling? Perhaps I have been noticing differences in riser wood weight vs. weight in limb core materials?! I am curious to know the actual pounds/ cubic foot weight difference between the two materials. That would be the hard data. Minus glass, minus glue, as you say. Are not cane/tempered bamboo and Actionboo two similar/yet different things? The bows I am talking about that seem noticeably lighter in the hand vs. wood cores are cane boo and glass vs. maple or other wood and glass and of similar design/riser size/length etc. The OP was specifically asking about longbows. We're certainly not debating the merit or usefulness of Actionwood, especially not in recurves, you don't see bamboo as a standard core wood in most recurve limbs its usually an option. Very interesting bowyering lesson here. Thanks bro!!
As it stands I will bring up again that my favorite bows have almost always been a wood or mixed core. I love boo+carbon or maple/ash/yew + boo.
I like the way it looks, especially when you back an osage orange board longbow with it. but when it comes to glass laminated bows, you have to use thicker lams of bamboo to achieve the same weight as a bow utilizing wood laminations. It looks cool and it's smooth drawing, but the added mass in the limbs take some of the appeal away. Plus, sanding that stuff gives me some major respiratory irritation, and yes, I use a particulate filter, respiratory protection. But what lingers on hours later gets me.
I'm ever curious, and on a quest for right knowledge. I did some searching and was able to find several sites listing "average dry weight per cubic foot". Does this have any relevance to this application??? Kirk help?!
Bamboo 25 (!!! ???) (cane I'm assuming NOT Actionboo)
Cedar 34
Red elm 38
Black locust 48
Ash 53
Oak 56
Ebony 75
Btw, Mike points out something I find interesting- having to use thicker pieces of bamboo to achieve a desired draw weight...hmmm
Anyway, I'm not trying to start a debate, just really curious as to how all this stuff comes into play boo, wood, glass, etc. I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to details and technical facts. I read about this crap for hours LOL.
Yup.... actually you do have it wrong Bro... But that's ok. i'd rather help get you going in the right direction than get the wrong info circulating.
If we were talking raw cane bamboo it's possible some types of bamboo may in fact have less mass weight than many core woods used in modern glass bows. There are many different types of bamboo. The best type of bamboo found today and it's used in flooring and stair ways parts is called "Mosso" bamboo and it's laminated.
I do not use raw bamboo, and very few glass bowyers use it either. It is used by self bowyers and all wood bows for backing typically. As said earlier. it has excellent tensile strength, but rarely used on the belly of the bow because of the poor compression properties..... That's why you hear the terms "BBO" & "BBI" Bamboo backed with Osage belly or Bamboo backed Ipe belly or hickory bellys. These have better compression properties and hold up longer..
Tonkin Bamboo is a very high grade species known
for its superior strength and resilience and highly coveted by fly rod builders. Unfortunately Tonkin Bamboo is not a species that grows large enough to use as a commercial product to build flooring or stair parts out of. Most of the the bamboo used as core woods in a bow comes from manufactured flooring or planks laid up for stair tread material using "Mosso" bamboo.... If there is any manufacture in the world using Tonkin bamboo to make laminated flooring i'd be very surprised.
Here you go... here is a picture of the two types typically used in bows. one is natural color, and the other is carbonized.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Wood/Wood003.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Wood/Wood003.jpg.html)
The rich caramel color comes from tempering the wood with heat at the time they manufacture this stuff. both of these are vertical grain lay ups. This is the best for core wood strength and stability, but some guys will buy flat grain material for use as veneers under glass, but typically use anther stronger core under the veneers.....
I agree with Mike at Mad dog bows about the need to use thicker laminations with action boo than maple to achieve the same draw weight bow, and that extra mass weight can slow things down a bit.... But...... used on long bows with long draw lengths its very nice stuff. Due to the great tensile strength & relatively low compression rate properties it will draw further without stacking up so tight. I highly recommend the stuff for guys with 30-32" draw lengths.
Now after all this is said and you know the stuff we use.... i have to say this too. All bamboo flooring is not created equally..... A lot of bowyers i know have purchased great deals on bamboo flooring from lumber liquidators and other flooring outfits only to find the stuff was coming apart on them and the stuff had weird density issues......
Most the bowyers that use a lot of bamboo have a good high quality Mosso Bamboo material from a manufacturer they trust. Some guys use larger planks to yeild more laminations, and some like myself prefer flooring material. I think it's more expensive for me to mill lams out of flooring material but i get good consistency in flooring.
Sorry i got so long winded here. But there is a lot more too this than meets the eye... hope this helps....
Cool info Kirk!! This type of info, to me at least, though I doubt I'm alone, is a joy to see posted on occasion on the general forum, as I am sure many who hang out here may not check out the Bowyer's sub-forum very often and I think it is nice for all the hunters to gain an understanding of what it takes to build their weapons of choice.
Good deal brutha... i didn't want to contradict you on the subject, but sometimes detailed info trumps perception..... I'm quite certain the glue used in laminating this vertical gran bamboo adds to the mass weight.
I've played with laminating rock hard maple into action wood for recurves.... Wow! You want to talk about some cool core wood.... The old boys that used to say the "cores don't matter on a glass bow" are full of horse feathers...LOL
btw.... here is the technical data sheet on the bamboo i use.
http://www.higuerahardwoods.com/blog-post-csi-specification-for-solid-bamboo-flooring
Very interesting stuff. I just had a bow built for me by Ted Fry @ Raptor Archery. I have one of those 32 in draw lengths. Bow is 64 inches with bamboo core, yew limbs & I-beam riser with black walnut. Wish I knew how to post pics, bottom line, it is "Very smooth " to. 32, & 63 lbs @ 32. It zips a 700 gr arrow. I couldn't be happier with materials chosen. Scott.
Double post.......
Kirk:. The old boys that used to say the "cores don't matter on a glass bow" are full of horse feathers...
Absolutely true. Just add a piece of purpleheart or bloodwood to a stack and see what happens to the poundage.
It is simple to figure out stacks for specific woods but play with adding carbon or very stiff wood to the core and you really have to be careful to not end up with a very heavy bow.
Something I have always wondered is this. Stiffer lams add draw weight but usually are heavier apples to apples. So since we have to grind them down in dimension , take weight off in order to hit a specified poundage. (this can be done by adjusting the stack or by side dressing the bow or sanding the glass) it is my opinion that we may as well stick with something like maple or actionboow since we end up in the long run with close to the same weight limb.
Limb recovery is the desired thing here and that is accomplished first with limb geometry and design plus the addition of proper tapers , core woods ect for that specific design.
I believe that this is achieved only by experience and a lot of experiment. I sincerely doubt that the bowyers that would say it doesn't matter have really spent that much time experimenting with different woods as cores, However I will say that of the woods we generally use as core woods there is no huge difference. Difference yes but not really huge. However is is definitely one thing in the equasion.
God bless, Steve
God bless, Steve
Hey there brutha Steve, Haven't seen you posting much lately. Hope things are doing well for you. Kirk
wow...didn't know this cat was gonna get off the ground so quick.....
Great information and thanks for the input everybody.
Thanks Kirk for stepping up and giving such detailed information.
I have a great appreciation for the aesthetic qualities of wood and sound in instruments. However, I am trying to understand the performance qualities of it.
Just another part of the journey to enjoy.
Thanks again.
-Mark
My pleasure Mark,
I don't mind sharing the things i've learned building bows at all. I'm glad there are some that appreciate it.....
Some folks prefer smoke signals rather than text.
I also am thankful for the valuable info shared! I have been considering trying different core woods( I've only used aboo). The years of knowledge passed on by those that don't have too has saved me lots of headache and money. I only hope I can pass it on someday to someone else! Thx everybody!
This is a rather simple bow created from a Dryad blank back in the time when they were selling them...I never really thought of it before but there surely appears to be nothing but bamboo in the limbs...I shoot that bow at about a 30 inch draw and I have a feeling it was never intended for that length of draw only being 62 inches long...it is also really a heavier draw weight than I can handle even after I trapped the limbs a bit...but the truth is, if that bow was five pounds lighter in draw weight I would happily cast aside all of my other 20 or so bows and hunt exclusively with it...it performs way beyond what it appears to be
DDave
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I have always preferred the maple core for my Recurve. Very stable and hard hitting and will last for a Loooooong time.
I's good to see Kirk expose some of the myths about bamboo.
Much of what has been touted over the years about bamboos "magic" is true, if you are talking natural "cane" laminations and longbows.
Once the boo is slabbed up and glued back together, you can peel away some of the magic and end up with another decent, stable core material.
Glue is heavy. Action boo I think is better suited to longer narrower limbs.
For the selfbow fan that wants to have a bamboo back and belly, you may need to temper the belly to help resist compression.
I also agree that more boo is needed to produce the same draw weight. AND quality does very. ALOT!
YMMV.
Chuck- I was hoping you would chime in.
The man with the craft of making wood work.
Should have just asked you in the first place. :rolleyes:
I'm thinking I may have to go with the walnut cores on the next one.
Mark