From what I can find in the Wyoming archery regulations the minimum draw weight for elk is 50#'s. Being a longbow shooter with a 30" draw length I question how the 50#'s is measured.
If the bow is marked 50# at 30" is that a legal elk bow?
Is the bow legal if it pulls 50# at the shooters draw length, but is marked something like 46# at 28"?
I guess what I'm asking does Wyoming go by what weight the shooter actually pulls or how the weight and draw length that is marked on the bow?
The reason I ask this question is that being an older archer I can easily pull the 50 pounds at my draw length, but if I get much over 52 pounds, my joints and tendons seem to become inflamed.
Thanks for any help trying to clear this up for me.
Terry K.
Oregon is the same, 50# minimum. I believe your bow has to say 50# on it to be legal, regardless of draw length. Best to call the proper authorities in Wyoming and ask them to be sure.
No dog in the fight. . . however, it seems odd to me that they would base it on what the bow reads. You could easily write anything on the bow you like! And indeed- if this is the actual regulation, I would change the writing to match my actual hunting wt. and draw length if I needed to.
I doubt the Game and Fish people carry a bow scale. I would bet it has to be written on bow. Better call and talk to a game warden and see what he says. Also ask what do his fellow officers use to measure with.
.......and get it in writing.
I don't know the answer, but I will try and contact our local warden this morning and see if he can give a clarification. He is a bowhunter, so maybe he can give a good answer. The law is vague at best.
Thanks so much for the help. I wasn't sure if I should call Cheyenne or a game warden in the area.
I would make a guess that this is printed as a guideline and that there would be very little enforcement of that rule unless it is really out of whack or is used ancillary to some other crime.
There is no way for them to know what that bow pulls while in the field and no way to know if your draw is over 28" or if you routinely reach your 30+" draw when a critter is standing in front of you. If when talking to you, they determine that you know a bit about which you speak, that your draw length and bow weight makes for a 50# + bow at your draw, they should accept it and leave it alone.
Everywhere in our country there are little signs on the roads saying "speed limit" and almost nobody ever follows them exactly, but that is OK I guess.
ChuckC
After numerous phone calls, I finally talked to a warden in Cody. He said that 'he could have a problem if the bow is labeled 46@28'. He said that the situation could vary from warden to warden as to how they understood traditional bows, but that most 'would be understanding'. Clear as mud, huh?
This tells me that there is no clear answer to the question, probably due to the fact that the law is written poorly and doesn't take into account variables that are inherent in trad bows. If they are going to go strictly by what the bow is marked, then a guy who draws 30" with a 46#@28 bow could have a problem, but someone who draws 26" and has a bow marked 50@28 would be OK.
That is extremely frustrating to hear, and I plan on talking to our local warden in person when I see him, and ask if there is some sort of education that would clue wardens in to how trad bows work.
Sorry that I don't have a logical, reasonable answer, and I am embarrassed to see that our G and F folks don't have a clue about trad archery equipment.
Sounds like it's nothing a paint pen can't fix regardless.
They should have a scale to check the bow if they are going to issue a ticket for a bow labeled 46#@28". But they don't. The difference between on warden to another is their knowledge of a trad. bow and how the loner draw length equates to more draw weight and how much more. I would think you could explain this to the warden in a calm manner and he would let you go on your way. If I were to receive a violation I'd appear in court with a scale and show the judge what the bow draws at my draw length.
Onestringer makes small 1.5" square "limbstickers". I bet if you talked to them, they could make something professional looking that you could stick on (like you see on compound limbs), rather than having to permanently alter your bow. Chances are if they don't know enough about trad equipment to understand how it works, they would never know the difference. You could mark it 51# @ 30", it wouldn't be a lie, just a different interpretation of the truth. Just a thought.
Sorry messed that up.
If there is room for latitude in the officers judgment, there is room for selective enforcement! I have one bow marked by the manufacturer as 55# @28". It scales at 48#!!
if it were me, I'd be sure was marked 50# AMO and would scale at that weight.
I called the Cheyenne office, and again, the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing. "Maybe he could carry something from the bow's manufacturer to say what the weight would be" was the best guess I got from anyone. In other words, they are clueless. I plan on having a one on one with my local warden when I can catch him. I don't know why an email to all wardens that explains how trad bows work and how to handle this in field situations wouldn't be a good way to go, but we are dealing with a state bureaucracy here, so who knows? Probably would take multiple committee meetings, power point presentations, and high level conferences to come to a resolution. :banghead:
What about a selfbow or any bow with no # markings for that matter? Maybe they should invest in some hand held scales or just use some common since.
QuoteOriginally posted by RLA:
What about a selfbow or any bow with no # markings for that matter? Maybe they should invest in some hand held scales or just use some common since.
Logic and common sense are commodities in short supply nowadays.
Thanks Pat for all your leg work. I really didn't expect anyone to spend so much of their own time looking for the "answer". You are a true Wyoming ambassador.
I think it sounds safest to be sure I have a bow marked a legal weight for my draw length and to be sure it does pull at least that weight.
Thanks again,
Terry K.
As i stated before, " Get it in writing.".
This is an interesting thread and just a simple example of confusing and problematic rules and regs we encounter every day with the "government". I think MOST of these enforcers are professional and understand this...while some may not be.
I know my state's regs cite that an archer must use "sharp" broadheads while hunting, and I always wondered how do they enforce this rule.
BTW, I ordered a custom bow a couple years ago and wanted it at 50#. It came in at 49#, so I requested the bowyer simply write 50# on it.
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
I called the Cheyenne office, and again, the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing. "Maybe he could carry something from the bow's manufacturer to say what the weight would be" was the best guess I got from anyone. In other words, they are clueless. I plan on having a one on one with my local warden when I can catch him. I don't know why an email to all wardens that explains how trad bows work and how to handle this in field situations wouldn't be a good way to go, but we are dealing with a state bureaucracy here, so who knows? Probably would take multiple committee meetings, power point presentations, and high level conferences to come to a resolution. :banghead:
That is pretty funny Pat. You know I have spent a lot of time with the G&F in the past few years. I can tell they never cease to amaze me in how complicated a simple thing can be. Kind of like my day job. I also asked a warden here in Cheyenne this question a few years ago. He no longer works for the department. His response was "well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court". Basically saying his ignorance became by responsibility. I asked if I would get paid for the training I provided to him and the rest of the wardens during the court case. Needless to say I was not to pleased with the response.
I then took it to the chief of LE for the department. He said if it meets the requirements its good. Again a political answer.
My experience has been they ask me I tell them and that in the field has been no warden ever cared. Had one look at a broadhead but he was more interested in becoming a bowhunter. If you shoot a self bow write it on there just makes it easy.
Quote"well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court".
Au contraire! You are innocent till proven guilty. They must go to court and present a case that proves
their Point!
This will require a full explanation of the law to the court. Therefore a full exposure of their thinking and an interpretation of the law. The plaintiff merely needs to state that the equipment met the letter of the law. It's up to the attorney for the g&f to show otherwise.
Only way they are going to succeed is to confiscate your bow in the field, bring it to court and demonstrate that it does not meet the 50# requirement. Then their will be the problem of the veracity of the scales they provide, etc., etc.
Willing to bet that no case of inadequate bow weight has ever been through the court system!
Colorado and Wisconsin (to name only two that I'm aware of) used to have a minimum cast rule. Wonder how that would play out in a court room. :biglaugh:
This kind of thing has been trying to happen across the USA and Canada for quite some time now . There has been attempts to put a minimum speed of arrows at 250fps . It is a push to keep traditional archers from hunting big game . The thing is how can they enforce it ?
The real problem is ignorance and the people that are pushing this sort of thing seem one sided .
Well in all the years i've been archery hunting the only thing i've ever seen a game warden look at was broadheads. I've flat out never seen a game warden even look at a bow.... They certainly don't carry bow scales around to check draw weight....
If you have a state minimum weight requirement and don't have it marked on the bow as 50# i'd cover it it up and not worry about it. as long as you are drawing 50#'s for elk, that is what the law wants....
I'm not advocating breaking the law. I'm just saying having a bow marked less than the minimum requirement could cause you lost time in court. You would beat the ticket if you are actually drawing 50#'s.
You bring up a point that needs clarification in a number of jurisdictions...there is a good possibility that local bow hunting organisations were involved when the regulations were formulated...a local bow hunting organisation could just as easily be involved in rewriting for clarification
DDave
I'm not advocating breaking the law but I agree with Bowhuntingrn and KirkII.
Rather than open a can of worms and spend countless hours trying to educate a too-busy Fish and Game Department about a non-priority item for them....I would simply re-sticker the bow (if it makes you feel better).
Especially since you know and can demonstrate that in your hands it produces at least 50#.
I would rather spend my time hunting.
JMHO
I have never actually heard of anyone being ticketed for a low draw weight. Sure the regs are written poorly, but it seems we're looking for a boogey man here. If you we're poaching they'd probably confiscate the bow, measure the weight, and throw the whole book at you, but otherwise I don't see this being a real issue...has anyone been cited for this?
I would never trust a warden a lot of them I have been around say you are guilty until proven innocent and it is easyer for them to fine you and worry about it latter knowing most would pay it instead of loosing time and money to fight it. Widow
Get a paint pen and write the weight at your draw on the bow. You can remove it with mineral spirits or a little acetone later with no problem.
I have the same problem as I have a 30 1/2" draw and because of neck surgery am restricted to 50 pounds. Mine scale 51 @ 30.5 and that's what I write on the limbs.
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by widow sax:
I would never trust a warden a lot of them I have been around say you are guilty until proven innocent and it is easyer for them to fine you and worry about it latter knowing most would pay it instead of loosing time and money to fight it. Widow
Wow. Thats pretty cynical. I have met a few wardens in the woods and they were all very professional and reasonable.
Wardens have a lot more to consider than an archer's pull weight.
I agree that never trusting a warden is somewhat cynical, but maybe we should consider their job. It's common for them to be working alone in isolated areas AND it's almost certain that everyone they encounter will have a weapon. IMO, it's a tough job for sure.
So far, the few I have met in the woods have been civil as well. I think that in MOST cases, if you exhibit some knowledge, both of the rule, and of the way your bow works and why you are sure you make the cut, they will listen.
It really doesn't take a rocket science doctor to figure out the basics behind how a stick bow works if you think about it a bit.
Plenty of things to worry about today. I am guessing that this is one thing we should worry less about.
ChuckC
There was one federal guy who was officially banned from enforcing California state law in Eldorado and neighboring Countys because of his behavior. It happens but fortunately very rarely. I've never had anything but positive experiences with wardens.
Dang it, another double post! :banghead:
In PA the minimum weight for deer is 35#. I was coming out of some private property one night and had a Game Warden parked beside my car. Since I was the only person the property owner had given permission to hunt there he was just checking up on who I was. I was using my longbow and after I showed him my written permission he says, "Using that type of equipment makes the weight limit critical for killing a deer, are you legal?" I had the guy who made my bow put "At Least 45#" on it. I asked if he knew much about traditional equipment and he said he started with a recurve. I handed him my bow and said do you think this is OK? He couldn't budge the string and he said how heavy is that? I said, "At lease 45#"! We both had a good laugh over it.
QuoteOriginally posted by monterey:
Quote"well if we ticket you for illegal equipment you have to prove it wrong in court".
Au contraire! You are innocent till proven guilty. They must go to court and present a case that proves their Point!
This will require a full explanation of the law to the court. Therefore a full exposure of their thinking and an interpretation of the law. The plaintiff merely needs to state that the equipment met the letter of the law. It's up to the attorney for the g&f to show otherwise.
Only way they are going to succeed is to confiscate your bow in the field, bring it to court and demonstrate that it does not meet the 50# requirement. Then their will be the problem of the veracity of the scales they provide, etc., etc.
Willing to bet that no case of inadequate bow weight has ever been through the court system!
Colorado and Wisconsin (to name only two that I'm aware of) used to have a minimum cast rule. Wonder how that would play out in a court room. :biglaugh: [/b]
FYI, Wisconsin has always been and still is minimum 30# draw weight!
Idaho has a minimum cast distance-something like 110 yards?
I agree with a couple of posters about how the law/judiciary works. . . and I come from a line of Law Enforcement- so I have respect for LO folks. However, if you receive a citation (and have not admitted guilt by paying the fine) you are still NOT guilty until the judge or jury renders such. If you think the field decision was not correct you have the complete right to question it and get a decision from the judge. For what it is worth- the abbreviated regs they hand out may NOT be the actual law.
2C
Dan in KS
Kelly, probably memory slippage on my part
going back about 55 years on that. Coulda been Michigan too
CO is 35# min and that includes elk.
The only problem with the innocent until proven guilty line of thinking is that it may cost you hundreds of dollars or more to actually prove it if required. I once paid a relatively small fine that I absolutely know I wasn't guilty of simply because I could not justify the time off work and travel expense to fight it.
Far better to remark your bow to reflect the weight at your draw and avoid the ticket in the first place than need to prove that you are correct in court.
And on the other hand, if your bow is marked 50 @ 28 but you draw something less than that you should think about a different bow to comply with the obvious intent of the law.
An interesting thread, but I'm disappointed by the recurring theme that COs are ignorant jerks looking to stick it to us righteous archers. Especially since no one has been confronted by a CO relative to legal bow weight. In the unlikely event that you should be confronted by a CO about your bow weight, put yourself in his place: Your bow is marked 45#@28", but you claim that "oh, I'm special and when I use this bow, it is really 50#". Actually, I think the only time a question would be raised would be if you were using a significantly lower bow weight, like 35#. It would be informative to see how the code is actually written. If it says "50# @ 28", then the argument about overdraw may be irrelevant.
NOT ALL WARDENS ARE PROFESSIONAL AND REASONABLE--NEVER -- NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING --
gAME wARDENS AREN'T GAME WARDENS -- THEY ARE pEOPLE wARDENS -- THINK ABOUT IT--
nEVER FORGET YOUR RIGHTS--
wE ARE THE REAL PROTECTORS OF THE GAME--
I always ask them -- what are the ten amendmanets to the bill of rights-- most only know two-- ! learn them - know them-- !
RT
This debate is exactly why I lead the elimination of minimum draw weights for bowhunting in Kentucky several years ago. I was in the perfect position to do this and it was EXTREMELY easy to change.
I despise unenforceable or unenforced regulations. Most officers do as well (I was a commissioned (but not trained) wildlife officer as well).
Bowhunters don't read regulations to educate themselves about what gear should be effective or not. They go to other sources (friends, books, forums, Bowhunter Ed, and best of all...experience). Bowhunters want to be successful. They want to make clean kills. They don't want to spend countless and even fruitless hours/days tracking a weakly hit animal.
These are the kinds of decisions that should be left to the hunter.
I'd rather have someone that knows his/her equipment and abilities in the hunting fields. That's far preferable than someone who rarely practices, can't tune equipment, and is hoping for a huge dose of "feel's right luck" when the time too shoot arrives. Those are the folks who's tale of the hunt start with something like, "I stuck two today...."
agreed
ChuckC
Whoa! No need to shout. I get it; the government is the enemy.
That's right, they are out to get you and spoil your day.
ChuckC
I also hear they like to kick puppies.
A paint pen can alter a bow. However, we are trying to ethically harvest an animal as large as an elk. I like the 50 pound designation so I believe as ethical archers we should try and stay at 50 pounds or above. If you truly draw 50 pounds or more with a lighter marked bow, then I believe I would definitely change it on my bow. End of problem.
Interesting topic, I will be hunting elk in WY this fall, Lord willing, but with a 65# recurve so no worries there. If questioned, I will have the warden draw the bow - absolutely no doubt it is way over 50#. When I drew my NH moose tag a few years ago, I had to borrow a bow with at least 60# draw to be legal (from Tradganger Fletcher). I have always been a game warden magnet, so I wasn't surprised when I came out of the swamp the first night and there were two wardens waiting for me at my truck. They were impressed that anybody still hunts with a recurve and briefly looked at the limbs where the draw weight was listed, then checked my tags and wished me luck. Visual check only.
Most of the game wardens I meet are decent people, with one exception in over 35 years of hunting. One warden in Utah was so helpful that he shared his hotspots, which directly led to me killing my first elk, and we have hunted together several times in other states.