One of my pet peeves (yeah, I have many) is the seemingly unlimited number of different connectors on USB cords. You need 16 different cords for all your cell phones, cameras, GPS, etc.
Another is bowyers who seem to follow no standards in specing their bow lengths. It would seem to me, we could use a standard for trad bows describing the bows length. I'm not saying it HAS to be the AMO standard method, so maybe a couple of standards which could be named. Like SAE, Rockwell, whatever, but standards. As an engineer, I like to see things described in terms that are reliable and predictable.
I have an old Bear Kodiak Magnum that seems to hit the AMO standard pretty close with its 52" marking.
All, every single one, of the RER bows I've had is dead on at the AMO standard of 3" longer than the string required to meet recommended brace height. If I order a string for my 58" RER XR, I order 55" - perfect fit. My 62" LX takes a 59" string. Again, that puts me dead on at the recommended brace height and I can tune up or down as desired.
I just picked up a used D/R longbow from a respected maker marked 52" 42# @ 28", but it takes a 51" string to meet the bowyer's recommended brace height. Seems a little to me like the "fine print" at the bottom of ads.
For example, "52" Bow, draws without stacking to 29", but then in fine print "depending on how you measure it, this bow might be considered 54".
Am I just being cranky in my old age, or does anyone else feel the same?
You are just being cranky!
my bows are made to an approximate length without concern for AMO or any other standard. If it is sold or given away, the recipient is told what the appropriate string length is.
Mike, you're probably right. Seems I've been told that before :) And if you want to give me a bow, I won't quibble over the length.
On the other hand, if you are selling bows as a business, I do feel your reputation would be enhanced if you describe your product in an easily recognized manner.
Or, what would be REALLY slick, mark the bow with the appropriate string length!
Just an old grouch's opinion.
You are absolutely correct regarding accurate marking by a pro bowyer. Whether AMO or not, the bow should be marked with NTN length. That said, most of my bows carry no marks whatever.
I dont know :confused: :confused: Every bow I have ever owned was marked by the bowyer for length, ie, 62" and took a string 3 inches shorter if it was a longbow or 4" shorter if it was a recurve for the most part, now that differs depending, like my Schafers, if they are B50 then the string is 5" shorter, now my new Huntsman recurve takes a string 3" shorter, but both bowyers give you that information when you recieve the bow.
Danny, sort of like calling a floor a deck? :)
I think i built that bow....LOL! Was it an early model one piece Yeti?..... I think i just sent you an email stating i think i mis marked that baby as a 52"..... OOOOPS!
On the other hand.... i've got quite a few bows that use a string 2.5" shorter to get a 6.75" to 7" brace on them. Oh sure.... i could put AMO length strings on them and limit the brace adjustment from 7.5" to 8"..... But a lot of these bows have a great limb design & shoot excellent at lower brace heights.
Do you guys think i should be altering the string nock locations and limb length just to accommodate AMO 3" standards? I don't....
Besides..... you buy strings from one outfit and they stretch and settle in at least a 1/4" to a half inch after first putting them on the bow depending on materials used it could be more.
The string builder i use now these string don't move at all.... maybe an 1/8" of loop settle at most.... even twisting the string up a bit. these strings stay put.... I order them 2" shorter than my bow length so i can get a few twists in them and still obtain a lower brace height.
While we are putting pet peeves on the table... the one that drives the bowyers nuts is giving a customer a recommended brace height of 7"-7 1/4" and have the guys buying them say, "I shoot all my bows at 8" brace" and complain about having to twist the string up so much..... Good grief! What's a guy to do here?...
All bows are not designed to shoot the same brace height. If you have a bow that needs over 8" brace just to quiet it down and shoot decent, the limb typically doesn't have enough preload built into it.
This issue is seems common. I have owned a bunch of bows and have ordered a couple strings based on AMO length only to have the string be too long or too short. That's why it's best to measure the bow's ASL strung at brace height and go with that.
I understand what you are saying Bladespeek...I just had a bow built that the bowyer calls a 60"...but then tells me that by everyone elses standards its a 58"...so I now have 2 58" bows that take different string lengths :(
Hi Kirk. Yep, that was your little Yeti and I agree it was probably marked 52" by accident. 54" would have been spot on. I got your e-mail. I don't believe we disagree on much of anything. A bowyer certainly knows better than anyone where his bow is designed to be braced. Sure, depending on my draw length and shooting style, I might brace it 1/4" higher or lower, but for the most part I try the bowyer's suggested height first.
That's where I think the standard would help. If someone builds a bow that for his recommended brace height requires a 52" string, either call it a 55" bow, or just mark it ASL 52".
Oh well, for someone who gripes as much as I do, I'm pretty happy with the bows I have and do enjoy shooting them.
By the way, did I mention I dislike having so many different USB cables? :)
Custom bow, custom string?
2x What Kirk said.
My understanding is a bows length is not determined by the length of the string, but by the distance from nock to nock along the back of the bow. Therefore, different designs and brace heights would naturally require different length strings. The string length has nothing to do with determining the length of a bow.
It's a little like going around your ass to get to your elbow; but marking any bow with an AMO length is telling the owner what length the string needs to be. I honestly don't understand why more bowyers can't simply comply with the standard and make life easier for their customers by simply marking the recommended string length or AMO length on their bows. Ink is pretty cheap.
Tell you what I will take all of the miss marked or unmarked bows off your hands so it won't bug you any more. I will not charge you for doing this for you. :)
Walt, that's just a little like saying SAE specs don't determine the number of threads per inch on a bolt. Of course they don't. The man who set up the lathe or screw machine did that. But, he has to designate it somehow so others will know what it is. If he says "its my # 4 thread", that doesn't tell us much unless we know him personally and know what he calls a #4 thread. A common standard will tell us the type of thread, dia. of the bolt and number of threads/inch.
Measuring a bow from nock to nock doesn't tell us much except how long the bow is from nock to nock.
If the bowyer says it's AMO 59 1/2, and he follows AMO standards, it will tell us that the bow, when braced to the bowyers recommended height is 62 1/2" long by AMO standards and needs a 59 1/2" string. Take a really squirrely osage self bow and measure along the back (or belly) and you will have more than the smooth distance from nock to nock, but the bow could be spec'ed using the AMO standard and I could order a string for it without having to guess how the bowyer measured it.
If I pick up a bow whose maker is no longer with us and it needs a string, the AMO length, if correctly marked on the bow, would let me order or build one to the correct length.
None of this will make a bow shoot any better, and I'm kind of wishing I never started the thread.
Thumper Dunker, I spent way too much money shopping the classifieds here and assembling a bunch of bows I like to let you have them quite that easy. But thanks for the offer :)
So, Blade.......ultimately, your beef is that Kurt mis-marked his bow? I'd rather have him mis-mark the bow than forget the glue.
homebru
No, I don't have a beef with Kirk. We've e-mailed and I agree with him completely. He told me the bow was probably marked incorrectly by accident, rather than through any proprietary measuring system, and would normally have been marked 54" rather than 52".
I probably worded my initial post poorly. I should have been more specific and said something like;
"It would be nice if bowyers would indicate the string length necessary to properly brace the bow at what the bowyer feels is the optimum range of brace heights. They could do this by either indicating ASL (actual string length) or marking the bow
'AMO xx"' and then conforming to AMO standards if they choose to mark it in that way.
Would not improve the quality of the bow in any way and would probably also not increase sales. It would just be a nice-to-have piece of information for 2nd and 3rd generation owners.
So go ahead and nail me for being picky, and I probably am and deserve it. I think this final post for me is a valid statement and I wish I had worded my initial post this way.
It would sure make things easier for string makers.
I've seen longbow strings vary from 1.5" to 4" shorter; recurve strings from 2.5" to 6" shorter. The ones that got a string 6" shorter (Herters) has a sticker on it stating such.
AMO states it pretty simply. The AMO bow length should be marked 3" longer than the "string master" (steel cable--no stretch) that puts it at proper brace. Doesn't require any modifications to the bow itself, doesn't change regardless of bow style.
Or the info. could at least be inked on the bow, put on a sticker, or added to the paperwork if the bowyer didn't want to bother with AMO.
Add something like 59" RSL to the rest of the ink. Wouldn't take long for folks to figure out RSL stood for "Recommended String Length".
I thought that was one of the main reasons for marking the bow's AMO length to begin with--so we would know what length string to put on it?
Bladepeek, FWIW I think it's a great idea.
I had one of those herters Chad.
Perfection 46. "46 in" bow. Said right on it to use a 40" string.
Hey Blade, when you get ready to have that little guy refinished send it to me and i'll re-mark it 54"amo and put about 4 coats of Thunderbird epoxy finish on it..... $75.00 plus shipping will do it.
I typically do mark them with amo bow lengths now. My earlier models i was a bit more casual about it.
:thumbsup:
Kirk, I may take you up on that offer, but right now the finish is first class. I hate "gilding a lilly". :)
In case anyone is wondering about the bow that triggered my post, here she is - a little cutie.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm312/bladepeek/Archery/Big%20Foot%20Yeti/DSC_0010.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/bladepeek/media/Archery/Big%20Foot%20Yeti/DSC_0010.jpg.html)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm312/bladepeek/Archery/Big%20Foot%20Yeti/6Tt740I.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/bladepeek/media/Archery/Big%20Foot%20Yeti/6Tt740I.jpg.html)
Bladepeek, move over on that soapbox. I'm sure there's room there for two.I totally agree with you. A standard would be nice. That being said, if you want to use the AMO standard it is NOT based on bow length. It is based on string length. The bowyer determines the proper string length to brace the bow correctly, then adds 3". Not 3 for recurve and 4 for long bow. You don't measure the bow, mark it and then determine the proper string length. Custom bows, custom strings? Sure. The bow just needs to be marked 3" longer than that custom string (AMO standard). This would be VERY easy to standardize if we wanted to. All is takes is a desire to do so. All of that being said, why did AMO feel the need to add 3"? Why couldn't a 54" bow take a 54" string? The length of the bow itself doesn't really matter. It's the strings that we have to buy repeatedly. Personally, I believe a better standard would be to just mark the bow with the length of string RECOMMENDED by the bowyer. I'm not suggesting that the bowyer doesn't know what length of string his bow SHOULD use, only that once it's my bow, I can put whatever length string I want on it. BUT, if I use other than the recommended length string I have just given up the right to complain if it's noisy or inefficient . The AMO standard of 3" and the rule of thumb for 3" or 4" depending on whether it's a long bow or recurve and bows marked with NTN length (but not marked NTN) have made this a VERY CONFUSING issue. A standard, ANY standard would be very nice.
when I get a bow, if it has a string on it that works I forget about the bow and measure the string. It seems to work for me. Sometimes if it stretches i have to twist it a bit.
Blade don't you dare regret this thread. It is a point that has worth. Once you spend $25 on a custom string that ends up either too short or too ordered based on what the bow was marked enough times it gets to be frustrating. I agree that the "ASL" marking might eliminate some of this problem.
For me this issue gets lumped in with bowyers not following the build sheet requested by the customer, i.e. changing woods or finish against customers' desire and then not telling the customer until after the customer unpacks the bow and then going "aww shucks I forgot to tell you I was out of quilted maple so I used curly instead" or "I know you wanted a matte finish but I get better results doing gloss". Not acceptable.
BTW, Kirk is a class act. That refinish price he quoted, heck there are some bowyers out there who would charge 2-3 times that for a simple refinish.
I'm real curious how that little Yeti shoots Blade. I almost pulled the trigger on that one, I still remember when it was listed for sale on Kirk's website. Tell me how it does out to just past 29" if you can. Handsome little fella.
Chuck, I saw your comment in the classifieds. You missed your chance to get it cheap (relatively speaking :) ).
I probably wont be able to test it beyond 29". When I switched to lefty I also changed my anchor a bit and opened my stance just a hair so I now draw right at 28". I put it on my bow scale and I think 28" is a realistic draw length. It goes up in a very linear fashion to 42# @ 28". At 29", it goes up to 47.2# and I didn't go beyond that as it seems to be stacking right at 29". Of course that's with a string that's an inch too short, so another inch of string may put the max draw length out a little farther. I'm not saying it couldn't be drawn to 30". Kirk would be better able to answer that. I am thinking a plot of the draw weight curve would be approaching vertical FAST beyond 29".
My impression shooting it with a too short string that is also way too fat, is that it's pretty quick for a bow that short and only 42#. I don't have access to a chrono and can only give my impression compared to other low-mid 40# bows. Looking forward to getting it back out with a decent string on it. I noticed some pretty severe fraying of the present string right where the upper loop is pulled together by the serving (endless loop) so I put it on the rack until I have a good string.