Hey fellas, I started on a recurve for my first bow about 25 years ago. As soon as my dad would let me I moved to a compound. But the last few years I have dabbled with my current long bow. I just cant resist the joy of it. And this year I will hunt deer with it for the first time.
With that being said, I am kind of baffled by the large tip weight you guys run. From a compound guy it seems very strange to shoot something WAY less fast and run such a higher weight tip.
Can any of you guys explain to me the idea behind all of it?
Also for compounds 100 gr is almost standard across the board, but with you guys why do I see soooooo much variation in tip weights?
Thanks for the education and great site!
Dustin
Compounds use speed for energy....trad folk use weight.....think of it this way, ever hit a bug on a motorcycle....it hurts cause it is moving fast....but a brick at any speed will kill you.
With the slower speed you need to make up for kinetic energy somehow. With the heavier tips you help make your final arrow heavier to increase your kinetic energy for your setup. You can go too heavy though, just like you can go too light. 9-11 grains per pound of draw weight should be sufficient for deer with a legal draw weight recurve or longbow in your state.
Heavier points also aid in arrow tuning, since shooting off the shelf requires the arrow to "bend" around the shelf, aka archers paradox.
Good luck.
So 9-11 grains per # of draw weight. Is that for the whole arrow or tip?
That's for the finished arrow...fletching, shaft, insert, tip. I try to shoot no less then 10 gpp from all my bows regardless of hunting or 3d. By the way, I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I came from a compound background and used to wonder the same thing about the heavier weights.
No prob at all Paul. Thanks for the tips. It just seems like a flatter trajectory would really be beneficial with no sights. I currently have AD traditional lights with standard inserts and 125 grain tips and can bury a target tip to the feathers in a piece of plywood. I didn't figure I needed much more penetration for a deer.
AD's are great shafts, I have a set of Trads and a set of Trad Lites. They are easy to tune and have good weight for a carbon shaft.
I was used to hunt with compounds some 20 years ago and 80 plus pounds where the rule with short arrows and overdraws. Since I saw the light and learnt to use high FOC arrows I had much more pass through with my 60# class recurve bows of what I had in my coumpounds days.
My point of choice is at least 250 grains now.
In terms of the compound bow you can basically tune the compound to the arrow selected, but with trad bow you must tune the arrow to the bow. There's a lot of ways to get there hence the number of variations.
The weightier tips tend to be used with the trad bow because high FOC arrows are known to penetrate better. We don't have the speed to boost the kenetic energy so we use weigh to boost the momentum.
For deer those ad carbons are probably heavy enough with a 125 grain tip
Forward of Center balance point.
Light carbon arrows shot from a compound take less point weight to achieve the same degree of F.o.C. as do a much heavier arrow such as an aluminum or wood. A heavy carbon arrow for a compound is 450 grains. That same arrow shot from a traditional bow of lesser poundage is considered a light arrow.
For what it is worth, I am still sticking with 125 tip from the recurve. It shoots well for me and lots of broadhead choices.
Thanks guys. I was considering not going too drastic and either running a 150 grain glue on Interceptor or 130 grain glue on Tigershark with the once piece insert/adapters that supposedly weight 35 grains and are same as a normal insert. I have a target tip set (different weights) in the mail to try.
With a 200-250 grain head you guys must be getting considerable arrow arc. Dont get me wrong, that doesn't bother me, but is seems like on the other side of things it would make shooting 10x harder by making every shot way less forgiving to yardage. Do you guys notice this?
I run most my setups with 200-300 up front. May be a little more arc but not noticeable at hunting ranges. Could be that I'm used to it too. I think a heavier arrow is more forgiving, if that's possible. And they really Smack the target. If you try it you just may like it
QuoteOriginally posted by tradhunter:
Compounds use speed for energy....trad folk use weight.....think of it this way, ever hit a bug on a motorcycle....it hurts cause it is moving fast....but a brick at any speed will kill you.
Jon
Love your explanation will try to remember that one. :thumbsup:
I cringe when I see guys running KE formulas on their hunting rigs. I get over 95 foot pounds of KE with the compound, but it is a very fast bow with a 365 grain arrow. I don't think it is any better than a 60# recurve with a heavy arrow so far as penetration. Just a whole lot flatter shooting at 40 yards.
Better to calculate momentum for comparison of arrow/speed combinations.
I think most compound hunting setups, would benefit from a heavier BH/arrow setup.
somebody recently posted something i thought was helpful in explaining.
a heavy point basically pulls the rest of the arrow along with it, causing it to stabilize quickly and make up for slight spine or fletching issues. a medium or light point has to fight more with the fletching for control and stabilization.
in addition to the kinetic energy benefits, i have found this to be very true since switching to 250 grains up front. it also slams like a freight train, which doesn't hurt.
Another advantage of heavy points is,they generally don't have aluminum ferrules and the blades are thicker.This means a stronger,tougher head.
I tune carbons almost strictly by point weight alone.I like my arrows to be 30" so I cut them and just tune with point weight and that goes very quickly with a big assortment of points,plus 5 grain weight washers.
Once I have found the weight I need,I make up broadhead,using a glue on head,the appropriate weight adapter and if needed,a few lead shot in the cavity of the adapter.
I won't go into the entire FOC thing as those threads can get crazy but there is plenty of information out there if onr is interested.
'I run most my setups with 200-300 up front. May be a little more arc but not noticeable at hunting ranges.'
I guess this is where my mind went. Say you dropped 150 grains off the front for example. Wouldn't that considerably increase your hunting range and basically your overall accuracy due to more vertical forgiveness?
Maybe the head weight doesn't make as much difference as I picture?
Technically,maybe.I find well tuned,front weighted arrows more stable,more forgiving and less bothered by wind.That helps me hit better.I shoot 700 gr arrows out of low 50#,weight bows and I don't have to think about trajectory to 20 yds.At 25,I hold 4" higher and at 30,4" more.Most big game are taken at closer distances and the difference in penetration over my old,500 gr setups.
Weight does more for the momentum than speed.
Here are some real life figures.Notice the momentum numbers.
1.51# bow,715 gr arrow @ 155 fps-momentum=.492
2.62# bow,620 gr arrow @ 180 fps-momentum=.4955
3.70# bow,370 gr arrow @ 300 fps-momentum=.493
Each person has to decide what they like for trajectory.As far as penetration goes,heavier projectiles penetrate better,considering the power level is the same.
Simple penetration tests I have done show a 10% increase in arrow weight yields about a 20% increase in penetration.And to be honest,it is very difficult to communicate this stuff to someone who has had speed,speed,speed drilled into them for years.
Snowplow, you are correct that as you increase your point weight your trajectory gets worse and worse. In my 58# longbow I started out with 265 grains up front with a total arrow weight around 650-700 grains. I have sense dropped back to 175 upfront and I have gained hunting distance because of the flatter trajectory.
You must remember trad hunters want to get as close as possible, so gaining hunting yardage isn't their first concern. I was in your shoes a year ago when I made the switch.
You must completely retrain your brain from how you used to hunt with a compound. Instead of " how can I shoot 10 yards farther", its "how can I get 20 yards closer". Both of my deer last year were shot under 15 yards.
Now when I am at the 3D range flinging 60 yard shots than yes a lighter set up certainty makes a difference in trajectory. But for a 15 yard hunting shot you will never know the difference between 125 upfront or 300.
I would recommend 150-175 myself. I feel 175 grain point weight gives the best of both penetration and trajectory. But that's just my .02 Cheers SS
QuoteOriginally posted by snowplow:
Thanks guys. I was considering not going too drastic and either running a 150 grain glue on Interceptor or 130 grain glue on Tigershark with the once piece insert/adapters that supposedly weight 35 grains and are same as a normal insert. I have a target tip set (different weights) in the mail to try.
With a 200-250 grain head you guys must be getting considerable arrow arc. Dont get me wrong, that doesn't bother me, but is seems like on the other side of things it would make shooting 10x harder by making every shot way less forgiving to yardage. Do you guys notice this?
You are right on the money as far as not getting carried away with EFOC. Your arrow trajectory WILL be much flatter with a moderate FOC balance of 150
grains... You can also use brass inserts to add more front weight & use a lighter broadhead.... a good compromise is about 15-17% FOC and still maintain a good flat trajectory.
You are going to find a lot of debate on FOC, EFOC and penetration. You need not drink the kool-aid brutha.... a 125-150 grain broad head will kill anything in North America and most everything in the world shooting 10 gpp. and will give you a flatter trajectory.
btw.... i killed more elk with 100 grain broadheads and 444 grain arrows with complete pass throughs with a compound bow than most guys will shoot in a life time.... So just ignore that crap about bugs and light weight arrows not doing the job. As much as i love traditional archery. The compound bow is a superior weapon..... i like doing it the hard way personally.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by snowplow:
Thanks guys. I was considering not going too drastic and either running a 150 grain glue on Interceptor or 130 grain glue on Tigershark with the once piece insert/adapters that supposedly weight 35 grains and are same as a normal insert. I have a target tip set (different weights) in the mail to try.
With a 200-250 grain head you guys must be getting considerable arrow arc. Dont get me wrong, that doesn't bother me, but is seems like on the other side of things it would make shooting 10x harder by making every shot way less forgiving to yardage. Do you guys notice this?
You are right on the money as far as not getting carried away with EFOC. Your arrow trajectory WILL be much flatter with a moderate FOC balance of 150
grains... You can also use brass inserts to add more front weight & use a lighter broadhead.... a good compromise is about 15-17% FOC and still maintain a good flat trajectory.
You are going to find a lot of debate on FOC, EFOC and penetration. You need not drink the kool-aid brutha.... a 125-150 grain broad head will kill anything in North America and most everything in the world shooting 10 gpp. and will give you a flatter trajectory.
btw.... i killed more elk with 100 grain broadheads and 444 grain arrows with complete pass throughs with a compound bow than most guys will shoot in a life time.... So just ignore that crap about bugs and light weight arrows not doing the job. As much as i love traditional archery. The compound bow is a superior weapon..... i like doing it the hard way personally. [/b]
If you do a side by side comparison of an efoc arrow and one thats not an efoc arrow you would be hardpressed to deny the obivious advantages of a efoc arrow. There is a common sense approch to efoc you have to find what works best with your set up. You just can put a 300 grain tip and call it good. You have to practice with what set up you chose light or heavy. The most important thing is that your accurate.
I don't think a compound bow is superior in any way. :confused:
Gilbert
Well Gilbert... That's exactly what i was trying to explain to snowplow is that there is a constant debate about EFOC arrows vs a moderate FOC. I'm not going to going to my own theory's and tests and try and convince anyone trajectory is is more important than penetration. But EFOC does effect trajectory. Down range after the arrow slows down there is a significant difference between the two.
Granted... if you limit your shooting distance to 12-15 yards it probably wont be much. But if you hunt and shoot at 30-40 yards you are going to see a bunch of difference in the arrows trajectory....
Once i start limiting my shots to 12 yards i'm going to start using a spear. :biglaugh:
This could easily get into a big hair ball debate about shooting distance ethics, and penetration tests on water buffalo... I'm not having any part of it..... You guys can have at it. I've done the tests and killed a lot of elk.