Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Wheels2 on May 02, 2014, 03:45:00 PM
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I would like to hear from the folks that shoot 45# bows. What is the lightest arrow that you have used on deer and achieve pass through. What head?
Thanks,
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I only shoot 40-45 lbs bows. All my arrows are 450-500 grains. Two blades or single bevels will give you the best chance for a pass through. Stay away from the shoulders and be accurate. The type of bow also could make a difference a 45 pound self bow with two inches of string follow is different than a 45 pound recurve.
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My 2010 bow drew 46# at my 26" draw. I shot two through and recovered both in sight -- neither went more than 35 yards. One was a 21 yard and the other a 16 yard shot.
My arrow was a MFX Classic weighting 424 grains with a Helix 2-blade single bevel broadhead.
All my hunting is done with bows from 46-49# draw weight and arrows from 424-535 grains.
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45# Bob Lee dark archer, 29.5" 2014s, 160gr snuffers, about 450 total weight. 3 deer, all 2 holes, 1 blow through, 2 the fletching was still in the deer. Longest bloodrail 50 yds, all dropped in sight...........heavy arrow, scary sharp heads, well tuned set up works great every time.........
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275# pig with a 43# RER XR. The arrow was a 3555, 30" with 175 total point/adapter weight Zwickey 2-blade.
Had 9" - 10" of arrow sticking out the far side. First time I have not had total pass through, but the previous animals were whitetails.
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Had two passthroughs with setup almost identical to Bladepeek's. Both shots were inside of 10 yards.
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I have shot a lot of deer with a 45lb bow. not many pass throughts it depends on where you hit them I use a 35-55 gt with a 145 two blade magnus stinger. I went up to 50 lbs same set up I have blown right through everything.Now my son uses a 40lb bow an gets pass throws with a gt arrow an 125 gr two blade head.I guess its all in the placement of the arrow.Qfcourse a sharp head as well.foot note, a pass throught to me is the arrow completely leaving the animal on the exit side.not two holes in the animal.
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I shot a doe last fall. 45# at 30in. 525gr. arrow. Magnus 2 blade. Complete pass thru. She went 20yrds and fell over.
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It not about bow weight it's about how sharp your broadheads are and where you put the arrow. Just my 2 cent.
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There was a thread here about a year or so ago, that was all about harvests with 45# bows. Lots of pics, and some impressive trophies. Try the search function, or maybe someone will post a link.
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"Light weight bows and penetration?"
to put things in logical perspective, consider what matters most.
"heavy" arrows typically have increased penetration over "light" arrows out of the same bow, at the same holding weight, with the same point.
"heavy" is a key word. a 45# holding weight with a 10gpp arrow (450 grains) will more than likely have better penetration than an 8gpp arrow (360 grains).
IMHO, in the above comparison, what will count more than the arrow weight will be how straight the arrow flies, how sharp the broadhead, and how accurate the shot placement.
distance to the mark is another important factor. lighter arrows have flatter trajectories, heavier arrows won't. heavier arrows will probably require shorter shot distances.
then consider the game hunted, and how tough the hide, bone structure and depth of flesh ...
given good arrow flight, consistently good arrow placement at sane shot distances with sharp coc broadheads, hunting whitetail deer with 45# of push and "light" arrows is just fine, imo. up the ante to large hogs with that same tackle and i would consider that marginal hunting at best. but, increasing the arrow weight to 500 grains or more, and shots at 15 yards or less, changes chances for a far better outcome on tougher game like bigger hogs.
as always, ymmv.
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I didn't realize 45# was light weight. It seems it was "average" for a long time.
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it's just a numbers game that's meaningless without purpose.
45# holding weight is less than a 55# holding weight and more than a 35# holding weight.
all that matters most is what i previously typed - utilize the right tackle for a given hunt, and make sure yer as equally up to the task, too.
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ceme24, I agree with your comment. Back before compounds, probably the most common weight for both field archery and hunting was 45#. Just look at how many of the old bows you see in that weight. Then along came Mr. Allen with his compound and 35%, then 50% let-off (and now those numbers are even higher). Guys got used to thinking that 50# was "light" in a compound device and were shooting 60-70# and holding less than half of that at full draw. So 45# became "light".
When the traditional movement began to gain momentum in the 70s and into the 80s, many of those compound shooters who came over chose bows in the same weight category that they were used to with the mechanical bows. I did many interview articles for TBM with various bow makers over several years and all of them told how in those earlier days the most common weight they had orders for were 60-65#. It seems we have gotten wiser (or older in the case of many of us) and have come back to the weights more common in the heydays of what we now call traditional archery. We still tend to call the average weight from those days "light".
I saw a letter from Howard Hill to a game commissioner in, I think, California regarding what should be legal hunting weight. Howard claimed that a 40# bow with a 450 grain arrow would kill any game animal in North America as I recall. That of course assumes correct shot placement. That would be a bit "light" for me on some animals, but just referring to what he said at that time. If my memory is incorrect on those numbers I'm sure somebody will correct me, but I am close.
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I will say that good/great arrow flight is more imperative to penetration than arrow weight and even sharpness of the broadhead. Don't get me wrong - Sharp and heavy is BEST with the 10gpp followed as closely as possible but my belief is the key factor is energy transfer gained through great flight.
That said I pass through deer easily with 45@25 and AD trad lights weighing in at or near 10gpp.
Other obvious considerations are deer movement, angle, distance and where hit.
I shoot Wensel Woodsmans so three Vs. two has not been an issue for me.
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Interesting post, Bobby, your post brings up another factor which is draw length. I note your reference to 45# at 25" draw. Power stroke is also a factor in penetration. I'm not sure how much, but I have a friend who killed an adult bison with a 50# recurve and about a 25-26" draw--arrow went clear through the bison and bounced off the frozen ground on the off side. The longer draw the more energy stored in the limbs--or so they say. Long draw guys have less concerns on that point it would seem. One of the benefits of "lighter" weight bows is the fact that most guys will get a fuller draw with them and thus increase the power stroke.
I just got my Compton's magazine and looking at the animals entered in the archives this year is a shiras moose a guy killed with a 44# bow shooting a 20 yard shot. Arrow weight was not listed.
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stick bows are at their best when matched in design length to the archer's draw length, for maximum efficiency.
no matter what, it will always still come down to to a prescription of factors that will determine the best results when hunting with stick bows that are chosen for a given quarry. the archer's abilities (or lack thereof), the mastering of the holding weight that's at least adequate for the game hunted, consistent accuracy at hunting distances, sensible arrow mass weight, good arrow flight, sharp coc broadheads and accurate shot placement. anything less will lessen the odds of achieving success.
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Ceme took my words. 45lbs isn't light. Now, 30-35 is light, in my book.
For what it's worth, I have yet to shoot a deer with 40lbs where I didn't get a passthru. That's with Grizzly Stik Sitka's, and 150gr heads, Stingers, Silver Flames and Steelforce Phatheads.
After my shoulder surgery, I killed a deer with a 30lb Kodiak Special, and while I did not get a pass thru on the deer quartered away at 12 yards, I got 14" of penetration in the liver and lungs and a bunch of tasty venison in the freezer.
With 38-40lbs, if you shoot around 450-550grs, use a hair shaving 2 blade or 2 blade with bleeders (like a Stinger or Phathead), keep shots 15 yards and under and don't take low percentage/high risk shots, you'll kill any deer you want. Then again, that criteria applies if you're shooting 60lbs too.
I used to shoot high height compounds, where I felt like Superman and could even sneak an arrow in under low percentage shots and then switched to trad bows in much higher weights than I shoot now and my conclusion is that having to shoot low weights due to shoulder issues has made me a much more patient shot, on animals. Knowing my limitations with low weight, now I only take "gimme" shots, where with higher weights I sometimes thought the power of the bow could make up for the less than perfect shot opportunity.
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once should strive to shoot the most holding stick bow weight one can master for consistent good accuracy.
if a 40# holding weight is yer ticket to exceptional accuracy, and you can't hold more bow weight with that accuracy, match that bow weight to a good arrow weight and THEN match all of that to the game one pursues. 40# for deer? no problemo. fer hogs? marginal. african surfari? no way, jose.
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This has been an interesting topic for me. I've been wondering about the same thing.
I only took up traditional archery about a year ago and got myself a 40#@28" Falco Storm. Initially I was drawing about 27.5", but as my style developed that went down to 26.5". So now I only draw back about 35#.
I've shot a turkey with it, but the penetration of the wooden arrows I shot left me underwhelmed. They were 29" cedar shafts with 130gr. Zwickey No-Mercy broadheads, for a total weight of 435gr. and a 12.4% FOC. I'm really hoping to go after some fallow deer and feral goats. On our side of the world a fallow buck can weigh about 170lb and a doe 90lb. So I'm in the process of getting some carbon arrows with a bit more weight, a higher FOC and more efficient broadheads.
Sorry if I'm off topic a bit. I might have to start a new topic to get some tips on my setup. It's my first post, so still figuring things out. :rolleyes:
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It stands to reason that a heavy bow casting heavy arrows WILL penetrate farther or deeper than a lighter bow casting lighter arrows.
Now... for the rest of the story.
You don't need 100" of penetration on a deer to kill it quite dead. You (yes, YOU need to work it out with your gear, no matter what WE tell you here)need to determine, thru practice and thru experimentation just what is needed for the job you are about to undertake, and if your equipment and YOU are up to it.
There is much much more involved here than just simple physics. All sorts of things factor in that affect arrow flight, placement of shot, animal movement, distance to target, type of target, junk in the way, mechanical advantage of the cutting surface etc etc.
I can't tell you 30# is enough, cause for every 30# pass thru you will hear about there will be a 60# failure, all because of "things".
Try it, do you best, and work on being the best hunter you can be (translate. . the ability to get closer and to set up shots better) and the best shot you can be (translate. . . hit what you aim at and KNOW where to aim).
ChuckC
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chuckc is on the money, as usual! ;)
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I got a question, if you have an archer shooting 50 lbs @ 25 an a archer shooting 50 @ 28 with the same arrow set up an same make an model bow are all things the same? fps,an penetration an such.thanks ED
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Al lother things being equal, the arrow shot at the longer draw length will be faster.
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I used a 45# Griizzly for years when I stared back in the 60's. I probably was actually drawing 41-42#. My 400 gr, Bear Razorhead tipped arrows almost always gave complete penetration on whitetails, even on angled shots. 50# was a heavyweight back then.
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I'm a little puzzled now, I have LB, it is marked as being 50# @ 26" I draw 26 1/2". I figure it's 51#. It was custom made for the previous owner and, hits the wall at about 26 3/4"- 27"so, I don't think drawing this bow any further back would really help even if someone had a longer draw. My question would be, how could this benefit a person with a longer draw. Of corse this is irrelevant if we are talking about mass produced bow ( I hope I made myself clear ) and, don't mean to steal the thread.
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Two bows of the same design. One that is 45@28 and drawn to 28. The other 45@31 and drawn to 31. The 31 inch draw will be faster every time.
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Originally posted by njloco:
I'm a little puzzled now, I have LB, it is marked as being 50# @ 26" I draw 26 1/2". I figure it's 51#. It was custom made for the previous owner and, hits the wall at about 26 3/4"- 27"so, I don't think drawing this bow any further back would really help even if someone had a longer draw. My question would be, how could this benefit a person with a longer draw. Of corse this is irrelevant if we are talking about mass produced bow ( I hope I made myself clear ) and, don't mean to steal the thread.
Drawing any traditional bow further increases weight and power stroke whether it was custom made for a draw length or not. My son shoots an identical bow to my 50# Journey but with 10# lighter limbs and shoots 10 fps faster, the difference is he has a 2.5" longer draw length, his bow scales at 46 at 31.5" and mine 52 at 29". All of this is with the same arrows. I guess my point is that at longer draw lengths lighter bows can be surprisingly powerful. Even with identical draw weights at a given draw length longer draws are more powerful, 40# @ 28" is a completely different animal than 40 @ 31", don't ask me to explain the physics, this is just my personal observation.
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Scott E, you hit the nail on the head !
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yes, longer draw lengths have a longer power stroke and that *might* *maybe* be a slight advantage of sorts over a shorter draw length.
also, do realize that for the most part the labeled weight on far too many stick bows can easily be off from -3# to +5# at the draw length listed. there are more than a few bowyers who's scales and labeling are off by Lots as validated when those bows are checked by a quality digital scale that's been verified. from long experience, and i can tell y'all personal stories from over a span of 60 years of pulling string .... :eek:
then, there's the gain or loss in holding weight when a stick bow is under or over drawn from its listed draw length/weight. i've seen that run from 1# to 3.5# in both directions. lotsa dependencies, don't just assume, do the testing with a verified digital bow scale.
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Rob, I can't say that my scale is certified but both bows were scaled on my personal Easton digital scale at the specified draw length and shot side by side on the same chronograph using the same arrow. This was the only apples to apples comparison I have had an opportunity to do personally. I did this to calculate my 16 year olds KE to see where he was at with the 40 # marked bow, turned out his bow was faster...your mileage may vary
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I wonder how many guys are ex compound shooters who assume they are a 28 inch draw in traditional gear just like on a compound bow? My first trad bow was a hoyt dorado 45lb at 28 inches. I assumed since I had a 28 inch draw just like my wheel bow. Truth be told my draw is 25 inches and that little dorado with a 530 grain arrow and sharp broadhead had not a problem on game. Never put it on a scale but I would guess it pulled a whopping 35 to 37 pounds.
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Chris,
I don't know anyone who has not lost draw length by going form compound to recurve. I lost just a tad over an inch myself.
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Originally posted by Wheels2:
Chris,
I don't know anyone who has not lost draw length by going form compound to recurve. I lost just a tad over an inch myself.
True that, many guys who go from a recurve to say a Hill style bow lose another inch as well.
Tuning and shot selection/placement is always paramount, but even more critical with a lighter weight bow, as are total arrow set up selection choices. Properly done, the lethality of even a very low draw weight bow is surprising.
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Originally posted by Braveheart Archery:
Originally posted by Wheels2:
[qb]... Properly done, the lethality of even a very low draw weight bow is surprising. [/b]
absolutely true, and what separates the real archery experts from the weekend warrior hunters. even a 20# holding weight launching a 250 grain arrow has the potential to kill something.
this business of tackle for hunting is what should spur our sense of ethics - know thyself and thy limitations, and react accordingly with intent on game specifics to be hunted and killed.
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I just bought a set of heavier limbs so I hope to have an extra 5#. I have settled in on a 430 grain arrow. It may go higher if I replace the inserts.
Still will be around 9 grains per #.
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Originally posted by Wheels2:
Chris,
I don't know anyone who has not lost draw length by going form compound to recurve. I lost just a tad over an inch myself.
When I first switched over from wheels, I lost a bit of draw length. A big reason for this is that most folks don't have a clue how to correctly use their back when they shoot a bow, and when they go to zero % letoff they cannot get to full draw!
After I learned how to use my back more correctly, I gained back what I lost, and a bit more!
As far as the OP's question goes, whenever I set up a new bow, my goal is always to get 10gpp with the best tune possible. The tune is the most important thing to me. If I have a great tune, but my arrow weight is 9.5gpp or 11gpp, it does not matter.
Bisch
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draw length is purely a product of form. i went from freestyle fingers recurve to freestyle fingers compound and my draw length remained exactly the same. with both, going from fingers to a release aid increased my raw length. however, going from either of those freestyle bow formats to fingers instinctive required a tad shorter draw length for me. we're all "experiments of one", do whatever it takes to excel. it's all good. :)
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Originally posted by Bisch:
Originally posted by Wheels2:
Chris,
I don't know anyone who has not lost draw length by going form compound to recurve. I lost just a tad over an inch myself.
When I first switched over from wheels, I lost a bit of draw length. A big reason for this is that most folks don't have a clue how to correctly use their back when they shoot a bow, and when they go to zero % letoff they cannot get to full draw!
After I learned how to use my back more correctly, I gained back what I lost, and a bit more!
As far as the OP's question goes, whenever I set up a new bow, my goal is always to get 10gpp with the best tune possible. The tune is the most important thing to me. If I have a great tune, but my arrow weight is 9.5gpp or 11gpp, it does not matter.
Bisch [/b]
Same here. 29" draw with the wheel bow and pretty much the same with the trad bow. Now that being said it has taken me two years to get the proper draw that gets me there.
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In a way all this talk of bow weight is somewhat irrelevant. A sharp, perfectly flying, heavy and fast arrow is what counts. As someone else said above the critter won't care if you shot that arrow from a 40 lb bow with a 31 inch draw or a 50 lb bow with a 26 inch draw.....Unless you know how fast a given arrow weight is flying bow weight is of little importance. I bet some high performance long drawn bows would outperform some short drawn bows of considerably heavier draw weight with the same arrow. That would be fun to test out too.... :) Rick.
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ALL of these "lightweight" bow threads end up in the same place. ethics.
the issue at hand is all about the bowhunter, not so much the tackle. there is range of personal limitations, and you either fall in or out that with regards to your chances of a good kill.
and even if you are the expert trad bowhunter, the value of luck increases as your tackle becomes more marginal. feeling lucky?
i can see where some folks absolutely need to use lightweight bows if they wanna bow hunt - but not anyone else who can/COULD handle bow holding weights commensurate with the game they hunt ... :nono:
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I have shot quite a few deer with my 45# bow 42# at my draw. I use 35-55 carbon arrows with 4 blade Zwickey 125 heads. I usually get a pass threw if I don't hit the front leg bone on the way out. Shot placement is more important than bow weight.
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I logged on to ask basically this same question... I shoot a 40# lb and I use it for 3d and am very accurate with it to 30 yards. I shoot perfectly bare shaft tuned carbon express predator 2's with a 85 grain points. Total arrow weight is 332 grain. They shoot around 170 fps. How will this work for deer 20 yards and in with a razor sharp 85 grain 2 blade bh?
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Originally posted by 2bird:
I logged on to ask basically this same question... I shoot a 40# lb and I use it for 3d and am very accurate with it to 30 yards. I shoot perfectly bare shaft tuned carbon express predator 2's with a 85 grain points. Total arrow weight is 332 grain. They shoot around 170 fps. How will this work for deer 20 yards and in with a razor sharp 85 grain 2 blade bh?
if you've got the accuracy, good arrow flight, and sharp coc heads, then there's the potential for pass thru's.
however, hunting is totally diff'rent than playing the 3d game. lots will also depend on yer aiming method.
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I shoot gap and my largest gap is 7"s out to 27 yards
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2bord/wheels- a LOT of deer have been killed with 40# bows. That is well stated..... Realize that there a lot of people that tell you all kinds of BS from behind a keyboard that have never came to full draw on a deer much less killed one with a trad bow.... Hit'em in the right spot with a sharp broadhead and you SHOULD be getting passthroughs period.
People try to make 2 sticks and a string more complicated then it is.
Sorry but :deadhorse:
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"People try to make 2 sticks and a string more complicated then it is."
How true. Never the less, I want to put as much in my favor as possible. Some things are obvious, like best possible placement, properly tuned bow and straight flying arrows, broadheads as sharp as possible, etc.
However, even with the best plains, things go wrong. I don't plan for and expect best case scenarios. Deer move as you shoot, unseen branches deflect arrows, yardage is misjudged, etc.
It has been my experience that "best case" is rarely what I experience. I like to have a bit more than necessary for best case scenarios. When it does occur exactly as planned, I am pleasantly surprised.
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it needs to be stated yet again - this isn't so much about the tackle as it is about the tackle operator.
i can see some folks, mostly trad pilgrims, reading threads like this and thinking their 35 or 40 pound holding weight stick bow will work for hunting deer and hogs.
thinking and doing can be very diff'rent things.
add in the hunting venue during typical hunting conditions and there are a myriad of pitfalls lurking to make that shot on that deer just not happen well, if at all. and things can get real messy if the game hunted is good sized hogs.
marginal tackle with marginal skills = a prime cause of wounded lost deer, at best.
at least attempt to be the ethical trad bow hunter. the average middle aged modern man shooting 35 or 40 pounds at his draw length can typically work up another 5 or 10 pounds in pretty short order, and have consistent accuracy, too.
know yer limits. i'm lots older. i can no longer be consistent holding 60 pounds of drawn string. i can do 55#, but under hunt conditions me and my game hunted are way better at 50#. and when the time comes, i'll drop further down in holding weight to stay in the hunt game, and be lots more careful about taking shots on deer and hogs.
i dunno, maybe it's all about our fast food society. hope not.
ymmv.
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if there ever was a reason to have more than one bow (do we really even NEED a reason? :D ), it's having 2 or 3 in varying holding weights.
notice i always say "holding weight", not draw weight. the weight labeled on stick bows is just a starting point, not an end point. some are off by 5#, and if you vary yer draw length, so goes the holding weight at yer anchor.
i have a number longbows that range from 37 to 53 pounds holding weight at my 29" draw length. this allows me to shoot a lotta arrows and to work into the heaviest bow for when it's time to get serious and hunt. the lighter bow is also good for when i'm in "rehab" from an injury, which seems to happen all too often, these years.
would i hunt with 37# at anchor? yes. but only under certain conditions that i demand on myself.
again, ymmv.
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Well I got to shoot the new limbs today. I am not nearly as consistent as with the lighter one. No surprise there. Shooting a few Judos, I did real well, but repeated rounds at a target left me tired and prone to form issues. Looks like I need to keep shooting the heavier limbs and build my way into them just as I did the initial set. It is an ILF bow so I can take them down about 5# to their base weight, which is just a pound over what I was shooting with the lower set maxed out.
Fortunately the same arrows still shot well at the higher poundage. A fortune of shooting an arrow that was slightly heavy spined.
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rome wasn't built in a day - neither is going to more holding weight. practice, you'll get there. :cool:
one method of going heavier is to over draw past yer anchor point to yer ear, and hold for a few seconds. do reps of 5, then 10, then 20 ... 2 or 3 times a day. space the increase in reps over a few days. you'll be amazed at how easy that extra 5# will feel in a week or less.