30 plus mph winds. Tested my 30% EFOC arrows.
here is the video. I dont want to start up a huge debate about efoc or anything. But let just say I am very happy with the arrows. you can even see in teh slow motion at the end. The point goes where its suppose to regardless of the back of the arrow.
These arrows are bareshaft and paper tuned and fly perfectly, even with broadheads and the feathers wet and matted flat.
http://tbwpodcast.com/video-25-efoc-arrow-in-high-winds/
Another great video and topic, Jason. I've noticed similar performance altho I have only been able to get about 20% FOC with my wood arrows. With paper tuning and higher FOC, I have also been able to get great broadhead flight with less feather than I used to need. It seems that shorter fletch helps in the wind, too.
Same experience that you show in your video. I shoot 'only' 23% FOC but my arrow flight is very similar. As we talked in another thread yesterday, reducing your feathers to 3" from 5" also reduces the amount of kick or yaw in the wind.
Good stuff, Aaron. Would have been nice to show a standard FOC shot or two for comparison. I know what you're saying is true about them being pushed around more, but would have been nice to see a side-by-side comparison. Given the high winds under which you were shooting, I was surprised that the tails of the arrows didn't move around more than they did. Your slo-mo showed some wobble. I expected even more.
I'll have to do a little more practicing in the wind with my high(er) FOC arrows so I can convince my brain not to add a little Kentucky windage when faced with a good crosswind.
I have 20 some percent foc arrows. On high wind days they really kick at the fletch end, but the tip seems to stay true. I often wonder if I am doing something with my release to cause the kick, but then on a calm day they fly like darts. I do think it helps.
Great video, Jason. However, If you will try some smaller fletching you won't get nearly as much flaying around of the arrows in a high wind. The larger fletching is just giving the wind more surface area to act on.
On an UEFOC arrow like you have there, there is just no way you need anything close to the amount of fletching you are using, regardless of the broadhead used. If those UEFOC arrows are tuned well all the fletching you need is enough to overcome the broadhead's windsheer. Anything more than that is actually hurting your arrow's performance.
I spent a lot of time experimenting with fletching for the EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows. I think if you will give the A&A pattern fletching a try on that arrow setup and test it in the wind you might just fall in love with their strange looks.
Ed
Will the A&A fletch work well on 25% FOC? How many feathers per arrow, 3 or 4, and what length do you suggest. Obviously I haven't read through all the reports. Thanks for any input.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Great video, Jason. However, If you will try some smaller fletching you won't get nearly as much flaying around of the arrows in a high wind. The larger fletching is just giving the wind more surface area to act on.
On an UEFOC arrow like you have there, there is just no way you need anything close to the amount of fletching you are using, regardless of the broadhead used. If those UEFOC arrows are tuned well all the fletching you need is enough to overcome the broadhead's windsheer. Anything more than that is actually hurting your arrow's performance.
I spent a lot of time experimenting with fletching for the EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows. I think if you will give the A&A pattern fletching a try on that arrow setup and test it in the wind you might just fall in love with their strange looks.
Ed
Yeah Dave (Doc Nock) has been talking to me alot about the smaller fletching and explaining all your teachings on it. I have read a lot of your articles and studies. Im "in route" to the smaller fletching but need more testing with the broadheads i shoot (magnus I 1.5" wide). I have the arrows bareshaft adn paper tuned to an almost perfect hole and love how they fly. with the broadheads i can go all the way down to 2.5 inch and still get good flight, but when they get wet and matted down the 2.5 or the 3in get a little too squirrely for my liking. right now im using a 4in feather made froma 5.5 high back and cutting it at 4 inches and not useing the back of the feather. Then i rounded the back with scissors. Still in the experimental phase and need more testing to see how small i can go. But for where i hunt (thick stuff not alot of wind) i need the good flight when wet and matted more than the high wind flight. The efoc is flawless and your arrow philosophy is amazing. My battle now seems to be having less feather but enough feather to use my big broadheads in the rain. I got a whole summer to figure it out and play.
I have always believed in heavy arrows and have been stuffing rope in all my shafts for almost 15 years to get the weight. I have always had about 20-23% foc on all my arrows as well. But this is my first time this high in the foc range. So far Im loving it. the proof will come with the game in the freezer. And i have no doubt the results will be exactly as im hoping. Thanks Ed, for all your studies and dedication to everything you do.
I used 3" parabolics on GT1535's with 360gr up front, they flew perfect out off a 51# r&d.
Good luck
Sveitri, yes, the small fletching will work on your 25% EFOC arrows. The exact amount of fletching you will need is dependent on many factors; the length of the rear lever arm on your arrows, the windsheer effect of the particular broadhead chosen and the quality of your release being the chief factors. I go through a set routine of tuning the fletching for the EFOC and UEFOC arrows, and it's a pretty lengthy explination. There's just no way I can give a set answer on how many or how much fletching your individual arrow will require.
LB_hntr. Give the A&A pattern fletching a try. It is near impervious to water. You can actually soak the fletching in a bucket of water for 30 minutes, remove it and, without even shaking the water off, shoot it into virtually the same hole as a matching arrow with dry fletching from 40 yards. Of course you're going to need either an exceptional shooter or access to a shooting machine to do that.
Ed
Thanks for the input, looks like I've got some reading to catch up on.
Sveltri, Whey, it took me a while be here you are.
I tune the fletching to give the smallest fletching that will stabilize the broadhead under all shooting conditions. I prefer the A&A fletching pattern, which utilizes a turbulator forward of the fletching. Here's the process I use to tune the A&A fletching, but the same process works for determining the minimum size for any fletching pattern. Just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount fletching is a step by step process.
First, here's the A&A fleching's characteristics: The rear edge is a straight, vertical cut, ½" high – regardless of the fletching's length. From the top of the rear edge the feather tapers in a straight line to the leading edge, making a right angle triangle. The fletching is applied as a straight fletch; no offset and no helical. A turbulator is placed ¼" in front of the fletching's leading edge. The turbulator is made from a 1/32" wide strip of pinstripe tape; which is used to add pinstripes on model cars and airplanes, and is available from most any hobby store.
Here's the tuning process:
1. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.
2. Once your shaft tuning is verified you can begin tuning the fletching. Switch to the A&A fletching pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft. Mount the fletching as far rearward on your shaft as you can possibly use. This gives the fletching as long a rear lever arm as possible. If you use a finger-release start at about 5" length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4" if using 4-fletch. If you are using a broadhead with a high Mechanical Advantage (which also has a low windsheer effect) you can reduce these 'starting point' fletching lengths by a full 1". DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability. NOTE: I usually use fletching tape during the tuning process, because it makes changing the fletching easier and faster. but prefer glue once I have the finished dimensions for my fletching.
3. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings, in ¼" steps, until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow's flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too.
4. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow's flight increase the fletching length by 1/8" and move the turbulator forward to maintain the ¼" spacing between it and the fletching's leading edge, and check again, with the turbulator in place. If there is still instability increase the fletching length and additional 1/8", again moving the turbulator forward to maintain the ¼" spacing.
Many factors affect what's the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU. A big factor is quality of your release (mine's poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind shear it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft's length. Your draw length and whatever length shaft you are using are also factors. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.
5. Once you feel you have the fletching at the minimum size for stability there's only two tasks remaining; (1) shoot the arrow a lot to verify that there is sufficient fletching to stabilize the arrow even when you get a bad release and (2) check arrow flight on a windy day. When checking for flight in windy conditions you will want to take shots at as many angles to the wind as possible, but at an absolute minimum check the arrow's flight in a full cross-wind and both quartering with and quartering into the wind. If there is any problem with stability in either of these tests you should increase the length of the fletching gradually, in 1/8" increments, until the arrow shows stable flight under all conditions of release and wind direction.
I've not found any release or wind direction problems when using the high MA single blade broadheads, because of their very low windshear factor, but many of the wide-narrow broadheads require an increase in fletching area to achieve flight stability in quartering wind conditions.
This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It's analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!
I hope the foregoing is coherent enough to be understood.
Ed
Thank you very much!!!
I'm sorry... EFOC and UEFOC stand for ____Front of Center?
^^^ Extreme and Ultra Extreme
Cool video by the way
QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
^^^ Extreme and Ultra Extreme
Of course! Thanks.
Could someone post a picture of A&A fletching please.
http://www.tuffhead.com/education/P&Y%20Dallas%20May%202013.html
Thanks
Wow! After viewing that video I think I'm ready to go back to gun hunting. Maybe when I retire I'll have time to go through all that effort.
QuoteOriginally posted by tracker12:
Wow! After viewing that video I think I'm ready to go back to gun hunting. Maybe when I retire I'll have time to go through all that effort. [/QUOTE
no harder or longer than making any other arrow.
Efoc is not for everyone. But if its something you are into this video and info on here might help.
I for one, am loving the benifits of EFOC....alot!
Tracker, it doesn't have to be complicated. When I decided to increase my FOC I selected a shaft with plenty of spine, loaded up the front end with 350 grains and trimmed and bareshafted with it. It now flies like a dart with the benefit of 23% FOC. I only went with 23% to try out the increased FOC to see if I like it - I do and at some point will increase it some more.
Again a BIG thanks to Dr. Ed , I've been playing with the A&A fletching an efoc for about 2 yr and every time I get to a point and this come back up and I go a little further. Thanks again Dr and Tradgang.
Well, Ed, I've read and reread all your published studies and you've taught me a lot. I'm going to try the A & A fletch, simply accepting that it must work. But, it's darned hard to back off on 40 years of helical fletching to STABILIZE my arrow flight! Heck, I never even fully accepted using straight offset fletching!
Now, some are swearing the Turbo-Nock is improving accuracy by spinning the arrow as soon as it leaves the string! At 6000 RPM, yet! (turns out that's not so much in a foot of travel!)
But, here we're looking at much less fletch and imparting absolutely NO spin to the shaft? That just seems backwards. Bullets and footballs are made to spin for stability. But, arrows don't have to? Maybe I'm just dense, but it's not logical to me. What am I missing?