Trad Gang

I will probably get jumped all over for this but I have to express what I'm seeing.

I've been shooting recurves for over 50 years. When I started there was no  "traditional" archery we were all just Bowhunters or Archers. As compounds came into their own there became an elitist attitude among them where they looked down at the recurve and longbow shooters. They also developed somewhat of a snobby attitude toward each other. Now I see a lot of admiration for what we can do with our bows.

Now what I'm seeing on different forums is a complete reversal of roles. The "traditional" shooters are developing the same attitude toward the high tech archers and even among the ranks of traditional shooters.

Now I do have to say that when I go to some of the various rendezvous there still exists a tight camaraderie.

If we are to maintain what we all love to do, shoot arrows at things, shouldn't we try to find a more common ground?  Or the famous quote "can't we all just get along"?  


How do you feel about this? Have you seen the same?  Why?


Try to keep it a civil discussion.

Funny but I have to say people are just too senstive. I happen to love trad archery and just love shooting trad bows. but.....I will hunt with my compound every now and then. I have had people make comments on both sides trying to get me to commit one way or the other. Well being a prostaff hunter for compounds andowning some of the finest trad bows made and shooting them every day shows I can commit to both and have a lot of fun doing it . No comment has changed my level of fun!!! Just enjoy the time.

Sadly, some think the bow makes the man.  How rediculous.

If people treated each other with respect and courtesey, we would all be a lot better off...

No compounds for me,but hey, if that is your choice that is ok with me.  Crossbows are another story,at least when they are used in the "archery season".


                                          Good Shooting,
                                                            Craig

I suffer from the love of archery... all aspects....

Its not elitist when you are better than them   :thumbsup:

I see it more and more, sad to see.....

Excel and make no comment on others choices.  There was a guy who frequented So Cal shoots in the1980's who wore THE hat, back quiver, talked a lot and missed even more.  Not an endearing person for trad.  I had a Brackenberry I shot occasionally in those days.  I found that guy,who may be on this site, a bore as he could not walk the walk, only talk it.
At the archery shop, many compounder tell us they do not have the patience to shoot trad bows, but would like to

Excel and make no comment on others choices.  There was a guy who frequented So Cal shoots in the1980's who wore THE hat, back quiver, talked a lot and missed even more.  Not an endearing person for trad.  I had a Brackenberry I shot occasionally in those days.  I found that guy,who may be on this site, a bore as he could not walk the walk, only talk it.
At the archery shop, many compounder tell us they do not have the patience to shoot trad bows, but would like to

I just like to shoot arrows and like all people who enjoy doing the same thing. I don't really care what they use for a launcher.

I have seen the snobbery before but usually this people are ignorant or are compensating for something.

People are people regardless as to what they shoot. I snub my nose at no man or woman for the archery equipment one chooses. I at one time shot an compound bow. Maybe like some of you. I had to start somewhere.  
I think picking up a traditional ANYTHING in a generation of hi tech. Requires a certain level of understanding and "maturity".  Don't get caught up in the semantics of the word "maturity". Not saying those who shoot compound bows are immature. But maybe Havnt grown to love more of a romantic form of the sport.
The method we choose. Is not easy. It takes time, patience and practice.  It's not for everyone.
Shooting compound bows. Admittedly. Allows for more opportunity at longer ranges, and heck. Who doesn't want more opportunity? But for us. It's about the journey, and the hunt. If we make the kill. Big Plus!
I say. If there's a compound shooter you know. Or next to you at the range. Let him try, let them play.  You just may convert someone.
Either way be kind. And friendly to others.

Lead by example.


Joshua

QuoteOriginally posted by jhg:
Lead by example.


Joshua

X2.

There are jerks in every segment of the population.  I have however found that most outdoorsmen, especially those that pursue niche markets, are overwhelmingly generous and kind individuals.  Those that take the extra time and money to put into things like traditional archery, black powder, fly fishing, bushcraft, etc seem to be the type to value the experience more than the result and those groups in my experience tend to be the most welcoming overall.

I think it goes both ways and there are those types in both camps. Most all trad and wheel guys I know are good folks, but there are a few on both sides that I do not wish to be around at all.

Bisch

I think you are right. I even see it on here sometimes. It could just have a lot to do with each others individual personalities also. Some people that act that way could be that way in every single aspect of their lives.

It does not matter to me what type of Bow you shoot, the problem that I have is allowing Cross Bows to be used during archery season. Since we are allowing Cross Bows then what next, Firearms?  If this trend continues there will not be an Archery Season.

Let people shoot whatever they want.  Heck, I took second place one time to a guy shooting a crossbow!  The thing is, I shoot to have fun.  Overcoming a big challenge is more fun for me than overcoming a small one.  Guys shooting with sights (compound or recurves) gripe when they miss the X, trad shooters exult when they get a bullseye.  Who's having more fun.  Shoot what you want and let the other guy shoot what he wants.  Just have fun and enjoy each other.

I see that mostly coming out of youngish guys who are relatively new to what we call "Traditional Archery". I have never felt the same....heck, I even hunted with a compound for a season and a 1/2 back in the 80's. I shoot in a league, sidexside with compound guys, and have never had a cross word. We respect each other as MEN....the bow in our hand has nothing to do with it.

Here in Michigan, we recently went through the "crossbow wars". Big business came to town, and decided they wanted our seasons opened up to increase their equipment sales. It got ugly. I'm not particularly proud of some of the things I said and wrote (except when I called the one guy a "Carpet Bagger and "Traitor to Bowhunting"....I kinda liked that). But in the end we lost.

I can promise for sure....unless I am with someone who is physically unable to shoot a bow....I will never hunt with a crossbow shooter. But I have several good friends who hunt with compounds.

I also hate that "elite" has become a bad word. Rangers are "elite". Top athletes are "elite". While the mere possession of a traditional bow doesn't make one elite, it shows you have at least the beginning desire to excel at a challenging sport. Nothing wrong with that....

I have noticed also that many non-hunters-older ones at least, seem to be more pleased when they see you are hunting with the bows they saw in the old Robin Hood movies and on old TV shows.  I have actually been given permission to hunt (after initially being given dirty looks) when they saw the long bow in my truck, saying "Oh, you're hunting with the kind of bow you're supposed to."  Non-hunters do notice what we hunt with, how we hunt, how we act, and what we say.  I think it would behoove archers to be more accepting of others equipment.  Nothing the matter with good natured joking, though.

The only prejudice I have in the world of archery is against crossbows used in archery season by people who are not physically hadicapped. Personally I would rather use a gun in appropiate season instead of a xbow in bow season. What equipment people use is up to them as long as they develope the efficiency to use them- which the game deserves. I have fun shooting the bows I have and don't care about "score", it is about the time in the woods I practice for and making the shot when it counts. To each their own.

Selfbow said it well. I have seen this attitude from non hunters also. I have nothing against compounds, shot them for years, I also tried to help a teenager get started bowhunting. We found a recurve for him, but he gave up. I always wished I had presuaded him to get a compound. He could have learned to shoot it well quickly and may have stuck with bowhunting.

I think the "Elitists" live side by side with bigfoot and eastern mt. lions. I have never seen an elitist in the field, Ive heard of them but Im not sure if they even exist anyplace other than cyberspace.

         Ive shot with compound shooters on the  3d range at my club more times than I can count and never had more than a bit of good natured ribbing. Never have I seen a traditional shooter talk down on wheel hunters other than like I said,,, on the internet.

I don't see this as a change, there have always been people with "elitist attitudes" on both sides of the fence. This was probably at its worse in bowhunting in the late 70's and early 80's during the transition to compounds.  A lot of people then felt going to a compound was cheating or not real bowhunting while people with compounds felt no one could kill anything with the historic archery equipment.  

I agree with Roger that elite is a good thing if you are basing it on performance and not by what equipment you buy.

I have friends that shoot compounds and don't hold it against them. I do try my best to put one of my bows in their hands at least once. I want them to feel what I feel with you shoot our bows.

I have guided guys who couldn't hit a bull in the butt at ten feet with ANY weapon. I do look down my nose a bit when someone comes to the field with every known gadget in the world and cannot shoot ethically, but it applies to all groups: compounders, trad guys, tweeners. If you draw your bow, can hit what you are shooting at, I don't care if you have wheels or not. I do however, try to encourage all of my friends to try life without let off  :)  

For instance: I am going bear hunting with two guys this summer. The first went elk hunting with me 5 years ago. He with a compound, me with a recurve. I killed something, he did not. I never pressured him or made him to feel inferior, but when he asked, I gave him a bow. He will be hunting with a new Stalker longbow South made him this year. The other guy is a lefty, diehard compound guy. He is coming hunting with me...and he has a new bow I bought for him. He will leave Canada with a bear most likely killed with a compound bow, but I will almost guarantee he will dive right in with the recurve I have for him at some point! So, you catch more flies with honey...and being a snob in terms of equipment has no place in the world of archery when it is threatened by weapons that have as much to do with a bow as turd has with a diamond.

I personally have never seen it, but I have always hunted and interacted with a fairly small group of people when it comes to archery.  My twin brother and my best friend are my two favorite people in the works to hunt with.  They both shoot compounds, I shoot a recurve and have since I started bowhunting in my teens.  Both these guys are good, ethical, and very successful hunters.  Never once has a word been mentioned about my choice to use a stickbow, or theirs to use a compound.  No doubt these people do exist.  I have never been involved in an archery club, but I imagine such a thing would prevail there the most, as is often the nature of clubs.  Someone above said that there are bad apples in almost every walks life, I agree. I am glad I have never run across it myself.

Jake

I had a nice conversation with a compound shooter once. His claim was that in shooting a compound, the hunting skill was when you could shoot a deer at over 60 yards. My comment was that I thought hunting skill was when you could stalk a nice buck and then reach out and slap him on the rear with your bow. He's still trying to figure that out.

'Elite' should be a positive adjective (or noun in some cases) given as a compliment or honor by another. Like many superlatives, it gets used too often and to excess.

Elitism or Elitist thinking really happens when a guy starts thinking of himself (or group) as better than others by comparison. That's a complete turn-off for me...I walk directly away from those who appoint themselves this way.

For bowhunting with traditional gear: If extreme accuracy and prowess with the bow was a necessary criteria, I wonder how many 'elite' traditional guys exist? Count me as average.    :)

I hear it all the time...Mostly while people have a bunch of like minded "friends" around hoping for support.
What they don't know is how many of the people they converse with disagree as they don't want to say.

I hear all the time " I shot this BUCK/BULL or whatever, but I did it with a "__________". fill in the blank but it wasn't a trad bow. They actually come off a little dissapointed.

Be proud to be an ethical hunter no matter what your choice of "legal" equipment you use.
We can be our own worst enemy!
bigjim

QuoteOriginally posted by Izzy:
I think the "Elitists" live side by side with bigfoot and eastern mt. lions. I have never seen an elitist in the field, Ive heard of them but Im not sure if they even exist anyplace other than cyberspace.

         Ive shot with compound shooters on the  3d range at my club more times than I can count and never had more than a bit of good natured ribbing. Never have I seen a traditional shooter talk down on wheel hunters other than like I said,,, on the internet.

Funny how people change when someone stands face to face with them...So true IZZY.

I have seen it myself and it is sad. I have friends who complain every time someone gets a compound out. Some of my friends shoot compounds.

Don't slam anyone for their choice. Encourage ethics to everyone and provide a group environment is how I try to live.

As Matty said offer them your bow for a round of arrows. They may like it.

Too quick to respond to your post Izzy. Just read it again. HA! And I STILL AGREE...   :D

QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Gerardi:
Too quick to respond to your post Izzy. Just read it again. HA! And I STILL AGREE...    :D  

Mike, don't try telling me you saw bigfoot in an Ohio woodlot. I don't even think you have deer out there.   :p

I must agree with how Charlie so gracefully put it ! I really don't care what type of archery equipment a person uses, that even goes for a traditional crossbow, ( no wheels ).

I think most of the problem comes from the use of binoculars and rangefinders for the purpose of taking a shot, length of time being the main issue.

But I have shot with all types of archers, though I will admit to having a preference for my Trad buddies.

Great points made.  I personally have zero interest in compounds anymore, I'd rather go shoot bullets.  I have friends who love their wheel bows and we encourage each other and give each other tips when it comes to hunting.  They appear to respect my choice when comes to hunting with a stick bow.  Freedom of choice.  Though elitist or not I do think it takes far more effort and discipline to become proficient shooting a stick bow vs a compound.

I've shot both compounds and trad equipment with some of the best in the world in both disciplines. Arrogance is arrogance- pretty equal across the board. No surprise that the very top trad guys are pretty humble and have been a great help to me.

I do see a newfound respect for Trad equipment by wheel bow guys that was less accepting a few years back.

I think I take alot more crap from my wheelie counterparts than I dish out but it goes both ways in hunting camp. We also bash each others choice in vehicles, camo pattern, women, and beer.

Thats just the nature of it ...

At the end of the day though, I'm happy to have another person to shoot arrows with whether it's compounds or recurves. I actually like it when theres a mixture of equipment in camp.

Alot of the time it works out really nicely, some stands are just better suited to the range of a compound and others are better suited to the near silence of the longbow ... I think we are able to make the best use of our camp by having guys with all different levels of skill, experience, and equipment.

I'm always gonna try to get some new converts, but I don't make it adversarial, usually it's just me gifting people bows and hoping they show up ready to hunt with it next year.

This year my brother in law, and a hunting buddy already got bows, my father in law, another brother in law, and another hunting buddy will also get new bows and arrows.

As a former IBO hunter class shooter have had the fortune to be around some real good wheel bow shooters. Heck even got a semi-pro shooting his dads old Bear recurve. I personally don't own a compound anymore but stand side by side with them at shoots. Met and meet a lot of great people in both forms of archery. Would like to see us just coexist and have fun. My wife and I shoot all the time me with my Stewart longbow and her with her Bowtech having FUN!!

I replied to this post on the "other" forum, (from where it got axed) and after giving it some thought, I really don't know why it even needs addressed.  Not in the archery realm.  There's enough of it elsewhere, let's keep this "hollowed ground".

Yeah I like to poke guys in the ribs at camp if they shoot a compound. God help them if the gadgets are not working right as they sight their bow in or something. All in good clean fun. If they get a bit sensitive I might just ride them a bit harder. What goes around comes around and I fully accept the ribbing I might get in return. Folks just can't get to serious about this stuff. Why people care about what the other guys shoot is beyond me. It in no way effects my hunting or what I like to do.

we can certainly be our own worst enemies.  

ive certainly seen it, and way more often the elitists are the traditional guys.  and I have never understood why. shoot what you want!

I was a member of two archery clubs. At both clubs it was there. The we and they, us and them thing. Fishing is the same way. I had a guy say that "fly fishing was an elite way to fish. Fly fishing is a traditional way to fish". Myself, I thought catching night crawlers or trapping minnows and crawdads was traditional because traditionally thats what we did. I think elite is in the eye of the beholder. Attitude is everything.

Really good post.  Even the use of the term "training wheels" comes off as elitest to me and is one of my pet peeves.

One of my best friends uses a compound as well as a long bow.   He's one of the best hunters I've ever been around and I'm confident he could out hunt me if he had to use a rock.  My brother also uses a compound. Spending time hunting with both of them is way more important to me than the number of strings on my bow.

I trully believe successful people will find a way to be successful regardless of the tools they use to achieve that success...in archery and life in general.

Generally speaking I don't think the term "training wheels" is elitist, just a little ribbing.  Are there elitists? Absolutely, but that sword cuts both ways.  No one group has a monopoly on a-holes.

I can shoot five X's with a compound and put it away for six months, pick it up and shoot 5 X's.  This is fact...So what...

When I think elitism in this sport it tends to be more of this comparison.

A tweed clad Salmo Salar Tonkin spey fisher is to fishing what a sinew backed osage archer is to toxophily...  Do I have respect for these individuals?  Darn straight!

~CB

I have a problem with compound shooters bragging they they killed a deer, turkey or bull at 50+ plus yards. This type of behavior or attitude towards what they consider to be fair chase bow hunting is complete BS and will eventually be the end of archery seasons as we know them. I do point that out to them & I don't consider that as having an elitist attitude, all though i am continually accused as such constantly.

QuoteOriginally posted by LITTLEBIGMAN:
I have a problem with compound shooters bragging they they killed a deer, turkey or bull at 50+ plus yards. This type of behavior or attitude towards what they consider to be fair chase bow hunting is complete BS and will eventually be the end of archery seasons as we know them. I do point that out to them & I don't consider that as having an elitist attitude, all though i am continually accused as such constantly.

Unfortunately we have not much of a leg to stand on there with movies of Fred Bear, Bean Pearson, Howard Hill, Paul Schafer, Negley, on and on, taking 60+ yards shots with their stickbows. And how about Pope and Young?  They were not really known for their "get close" tactics.

The world record Stone Sheep for 40 some years was taken with a half draw lob shot where Fred could only see the head for goodness sakes...

The forefathers were getting 3' groups practicing at 60 yards, these guys are getting 3" groups with their modern equipment.

Which is better?

Well Jim, I kinda used to get that same feeling about the compounders that took long shots but it made me think.  I read a post on another forum where a guy compound shot a sheep and a caribou at well over 75 yards. I think the Bou was 90. Anyway I was going to jump in and do a little stickbow trashing but than it hit me. The guy was just a REALLY good shoot and if he likes to shoot that far and can pull it off, my hats off to him. There are just as many stickbow guys that shouldn't shoot game at 20 yards as there are compound guys that shouldn't shoot game at 50.  Heck one of those Wensel kids killed running deer at 35 yards in years past. He was a (sorry B, is) a good shot.  If you're a good shot and can kill at 50, have at it. Might not be for you and me but that's our choice.

It's not a team sport and besides the rules the government set we get to set our own rules. Each of us. We are very lucky to be able to do it the way we want to and set our own limits.

Steve O is all over this. The 'get really close' ethic is generally a recent development...especially the part that's tied to ethics and judgment of others. It's a popular refrain, but not shared by all. If I could drill an elk at 50 yards with my longbow....yeah! I'm not that good so I don't shoot. The song should say "Know your range and live within it". I've generally found that most aspects of elitism and elitist behavior are tied to judgment of others, and as soon as we tolerate them (or they tolerate us) the comparisons and judgment fade. So does the appearance of elitism.

In my experience its mostly from our ranks and that's unfortunate. I've never had a compounder say anything to me that was derogatory but I personally know some trad guys that made it so uncomfortable for the compounders at a range I used to shoot at that those fellas just stopped coming around on weekends altogether.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
Steve O is all over this. The 'get really close' ethic is generally a recent development...especially the part that's tied to ethics and judgment of others. It's a popular refrain, but not shared by all. If I could drill an elk at 50 yards with my longbow....yeah! I'm not that good so I don't shoot. The song should say "Know your range and live within it". I've generally found that most aspects of elitism and elitist behavior are tied to judgment of others, and as soon as we tolerate them (or they tolerate us) the comparisons and judgment fade. So does the appearance of elitism.

Well put Mr. Dill!!   It has to start with someone!!

Elitists?

I see way more elitists in the trad group than anywhere else. Yeah, my compound buds and I like to rib each other in good fun, but it's the trad hunters that get me riled up. Mostly the ones who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Stuff like: you gotta shoot wood arrows only, you can't shoot 3 fingers under, you can't gap shoot, you can't use a GPS, you can't take your cell phone hunting with you, you can't use tree stands, and on and on and on. And if you do these things, then you ain't a trad hunter. That's what alienates us from the rest of the bowhunting world.

QuoteOriginally posted by ishoot4thrills:
Elitists?

I see way more elitists in the trad group than anywhere else. Yeah, my compound buds and I like to rib each other in good fun, but it's the trad hunters that get me riled up. Mostly the ones who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Stuff like: you gotta shoot wood arrows only, you can't shoot 3 fingers under, you can't gap shoot, you can't use a GPS, you can't take your cell phone hunting with you, you can't use tree stands, and on and on and on. And if you do these things, then you ain't a trad hunter. That's what alienates us from the rest of the bowhunting world.

I already posted,but this sums up what I had to say way better. I see people getting jumped on all the time for what they chose to use. I don't understand what makes someone else such an expert on what other people decide to do,but if you point out something they may be doing that isn't all that traditional,boy they sure don't want to hear about it then.

Most all my friends and hunting buddies shoot compounds and up until a couple years ago, I was right with them....  Compounds, for me, got too automatic.  It got too easy and it wasn't fun for me anymore.  

I needed a new challenge and I have a friend that loaned me his long bow for a few months while he was recovering from surgery and I haven't picked my compound up since....  

I now get SOOO much more satisfaction from a well shot arrow at 15-20yrds as I did from a much longer shot with wheels.

As long as folks are enjoying themselves, have at it!  I'm behind them 100%.

Rodd

I think all groups poke fun at each other.  The gun guys make fun of us Robin Hoods, we make fun of guys with training wheels on thier bows, and so on.  It's all just fun between friends.  Like the football and cross country teams joking back and forth at school.  Or mountain bikers and triathaletes poking fun at eachother.  Or Chevy vs Ford.  

It's all just fun, everyone still enjoys their respective choices.

With practice and a modern compound loaded with all the goodies, a great release and a rangefinder, 60 yards is not unethical.

The last deer I shot with a compound was at 47 yards, a very nice 8pt for my area. And that was before the drop away rests became common. It was that exact event that made me finally jump into traditional archery with both feet. I'd kicked going traditional around for a couple years prior, but after the ease of killing deer at 40-50 yards with compounds became a reality, I sold off or gave away everything compound I owned. Killing antlerless deer at 20-30 yards became to feel like more of a chore than a fun hunt.

For my own personal reasons, I didn't stop using compounds for what anybody thought of me as a hunter. I don't hunt for other people. Hell, I don't respect what half the people say about serious political issues. I sure don't care what they think about what bow or rifle I hunt with. I made the switch for myself. I became bored with compounds and killing deer with them. I decided that it'd be a lot more fun to see how close I could get, rather than how far I could shoot.

I think it's for this reason that we're seeing the growth in popularity of hunting with traditional bows. As we age as a national group, (hunter demographics are getting grayer by the year) we have literally 1,000,000's of bowhunters who've "been there-done that" with compounds over the last 30 years and they're simply looking for something to make bowhunting more fun and more of a challenge again. The growth in traditional archery is going to come from existing bowhunters, some of whom decide to switch as they decide that using compounds isn't much fun anymore. Why mock future traditional bowhunters?

If you notice, you don't see many experienced traditional archers who switch to compounds, however you see lots of experienced compound shooters who switch to traditional archery. As far as crossbows, I think anyone who has any health issue who will benefit by using a crossbow so it keeps him/her in the woods with family and friends is a great thing. After my shoulder surgery, I'd use a crossbow if I could never draw a conventional bow again. If I couldn't bow hunt, I'd probably sell off my land and 10 hunters would "lose their spot". As far as crossbows for healthy, able bodied men, I view them as more a kin to steroids in sports. I've sold crossbows, I know people who use crossbows and I'm not saying ban crossbows because that horse has been walking out of the barn for a decade and it wants to walk out, but I don't care for crossbows for my personal use, unless it was the lone option. Not my cup of tea, however I think they should be legal, much like I don't like AR rifles, but I don't think they should be banned from use.

It's for the same reason that more compound shooters are switching to traditional archery that more and more hunters are looking to antler point restrictions to up the challenge of a deer hunt. Antler restrictions aren't about getting a trophy to brag about, it's about the quality of the hunt itself and the fun, like with traditional bows. It's the same as with what bow I shoot, I do that for my own soul, I don't care what others think. The same is true with hunting in a more naturally age diverse deer herd. It's social mis-management that has caused some places like Michigan to have an unnaturally young deer herd, to suit decades of social demands from 750,000 deer hunters. But unlike what bow someone uses, what deer and how many of what deer neighbors kill does impact your hunt. Like a smoker in a restaurant or someone dumping a chemical in a lake, the actions of one landowner can have a big impact on others. If a camp kills 10 yearling bucks every year and fills every antlerless tag it can get, well then it does matter to other neighbors, what deer, and how many, someone shoots.

It used to be, before we knew so much about deer and deer hunting, and before deer herds got bigger, that killing a deer with a recurve or longbow was quite the accomplishment and rarity. But now, with our wealth of knowledge of all things deer, and relatively plentiful deer numbers (compared to decades back-in many area's) killing a yearling buck with a traditional bow isn't that difficult for more and more hunters. We know so much about deer now, compared to what we knew in the 1970's that it's like comparing the old 13" black and white TV we had at camp back then to todays smart phone. Our knowledge of scent control, thermals, deer calls, photo-period, human pressure, home ranges, etc, etc is light years ahead of what we knew when we left the cabin door in 1978.

And for those who hunt with a compound or crossbow, killing a yearling buck is only a matter of a few sits over a bait pile or feeder and it's like shooting squirrels off a bird feeder with a scoped .22 rifle. It's for this reason that we'll see more bag limit changes in the future vs. weapons choice restrictions, since DNR's want butts in the woods. And believe it or not, we as fellow sportsmen want butts in the woods too, otherwise the anti's will crush us with money raised and spent, and in future elections involving long established, conventional hunting seasons.

Below is some highlights of a well known study done by U of W. From my years of working with sportsmen on the retail end, my opinion is that the findings are spot on, with hunters floating around in the later stages...

From 1975 to 1980, groups of over 1,000 hunters in Wisconsin were studied, surveyed, and written about by Professors Robert Jackson and Robert Norton, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. The results of their studies form a widely accepted theory of hunter behavior and development. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

Six Stages of Hunter Development

The longer you hunt; you will probably find that your attitude and behavior will evolve. There are six distinct stages of hunter development. You may not pass through each of these stages and you may not progress through them in this exact order.

Stage 1. Shooting Stage

The impulse here is to get off a shot quickly, usually at the first animal that appears. This eagerness can lead to bad decisions that could result in the wrong animal being chosen, a poor shot being taken that wounds the animal or even a shot that endangers others. Target practice, good mentoring and more experience will lead most hunters out of this stage quickly.

Stage 2. Limiting Out Stage

This hunter wants to always bag the limit. This may cause a hunter to take unsafe shots or misidentify targets in the zeal to limit out. More experience and hunting with mature hunters will lead hunters out of this stage.

Stage 3. Trophy Stage

Success is judged by quality, not quantity. The hunter is very selective and will pass on many opportunities that do not match the desired trophy characteristics. Many trophy hunters focus on big game. The hunter's patience and commitment must be highly evolved.

Stage 4. Method Stage

Here, the process and challenge of hunting becomes the primary focus of the hunter. A more challenging method, such as using a (traditional) bow, muzzleloader, or handgun may be chosen. The hunter may choose to stalk or still hunt, rather than sit in a stand next to a feeder.

Stage 5. Sportsman Stage

The total experience of the hunt is what is important to the sportsman. What animal is being hunted, how it is being hunted, the immersion into nature and the companionship of who you are hunting with, all combine into creating a more sophisticated appreciation of the hunt.

Stage 6. "Give-Back" Stage

At this point the hunter is motivated by the desire to pass on the proper hunting values, safety skills and responsible attitudes to others. They want to preserve our hunting heritage by introducing new hunters to the sport in the most rewarding manner. The hunter may choose to join a conservation organization that improves habitat through wildlife management and promotes hunting.

I choose to shot a trad bow to master myself not to master others

I just hand a compound shooter my longbow and watch as he releases the arrow and the smile that follows. I think some of the high tech crowd is getting bored with their equipment and are really interested to try and shoot longbows/recurve but too afraid to try it. Once they try shooting a traditional bow they understand the passion.

Ron

Who was it that said something like, "Not all compound shooters are jerks, but every jerk I ever met out hunting was carrying one."?  The same could be said for some of the early season muzzleloader guys in Iowa.  They even scare the good muzzleloader hunters.

Ron,
It was that "being afraid to try it" than held me back for years. In truth, I wasn't afraid, but I was intimidated by traditional archery because I hadn't shot or strung a recurve since the 1970's.

It was on the suggestion from Ibow (Tradgang member) who suggested I go see Tom at the local traditional shop, now Blackdog Outfitters, that I finally had someone to answer all my very basic, new to trad questions. And I had a ton of them. I'm not ashamed to admit that I didn't even know how to string a bow, let alone figure out what arrow to use, before Tom showed me.

And that dovetails back to what I was trying to get at in the previous post. There's lots of impressive compound hunters out that that will become impressive traditional hunters, once they get someone to show them the ropes. There's no reason to mock them. The term "training wheels" isn't becoming of any traditional archer who uses it.

There's a lot of guys out there who'd love to try traditional archery. But many have no nearby shops that carry much trad gear and in most cases, with "macho" men especially, many guys don't want to walk into a sport shop and proclaim that they know next to nothing about a sport or of a different aspect of a sport they already know, but they really want to learn. More often, it will take someone to "volunteer" to teach someone about traditional archery, once the cue is picked up.

I saw the same with fishermen when I owned the fishing store. There were lots of bass/lake fishermen that wanted to try trout fishing, but you could tell they didn't know where to start and were intimidated by trout fishing in a river. It's sad that many of those guys probably never went trout fishing, even though in their head, they wanted to try it, but didn't because they were afraid to ask the questions any newbie would ask. While I helped many, many new people get into trout fishing, there were some that you could tell could never let their "man pride" to ask such basic questions as to show that they were novices. A real shame.

QuoteOriginally posted by atatarpm:
I choose to shot a trad bow to master myself not to master others

Yep, that's about how I feel too. I've shot a longbow since the late 90's, but before that I killed a LOT of critters with a rifle and compound. I just lost my taste for it.

I like to tote my longbow and wood arrows, chasing pigs and deer and turkeys, and whatever else I can chase. But it's because it makes me happy. If hunting with another legal weapon makes someone happy, that's what they should do.

I do not, however, agree with crossbows in archery season. Doesen't make me right, just think they belong with firearms.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I think it goes both ways and there are those types in both camps. Most all trad and wheel guys I know are good folks, but there are a few on both sides that I do not wish to be around at all.

Bisch

X2 plus I can add, I don't wanna be around these same people anytime!

I don't see much of one archer thinking they are somehow above another.  When I do see it is on a website where the vibe comes from someone I don't know.  Most of the time I give the "stranger" the benefit of the doubt and figure he is a good fellow that I just don't know, and am misreading.

I almost never, in fact I can't remember the last time, meet someone or spend time with someone who has a better than others attitude. I am pretty picky though about who I spend time with and especially so when hunting.

Most of the criticism I get is from myself.

Did you ever notice?

It's not just in archery, but in all walks of life.

When someone thinks they are better than others, and has to declare it themselves....(ex: I am the best...)

Well, they are usually doing so to cover a flawed or missing personality trait.

Actions speak loudly.

Anyone can talk the talk.

Exactly, ford/ chevy, Bronco / Seahawks, democrat/ republican, You suck because your form this place or that place, carbons/woods/ aluminums, longbow/recurves/hybreds.  It never stops, but it's all annoying.

Ford and Seahawks....of course.  No politics or religion on Trad gang.  All the rest I can go either way!!    :thumbsup:  

Some people get it...some don't.   Some learn tolerance and
Mutual respect....some never will!      :dunno:

Taste great, less filling!    :laughing:

Guys...let's just shoot!   :archer:

I have seen elitism on both sides of the issue, which is a sad thing. What is "better" is simply a preference of an individual archer. I don't care much for compounds and have never owned one, but that does not mean that there is anything wrong with those who like them.

It is fine that we see a more rewarding experience with trad gear, but there is nothing here that makes us better sportsmen, but rather, it means that we prefer an additional challenge.

If a compound hunter hunts legally and ethically, he deserves the same respect and consideration that we give ourselves.

On the other hand, we need to remember that many of the compound shooters who hold traditional archery in disdain simply don't know anything about it. How many times have we had conversations with wheelie bow shooters who wound up wanting to try out our stuff?

In short, no matter how seriously we take our sport, in the end we are all going out to play!  Both sides should play nice and show respect. We are all bow hunters, so let's concentrate on the common ground, not criticize choice of equipment.

Sorry to be so long winded, but this has bothered me for a long, long time.

My two hunting buddies shoot wheels and we get along fine.  More than once they have offered me the closer shot, or set up in a tight location and I pass on the long ones. I made a string for one of their old recurves and it gets shot on occasion now.  This has worked well for us for years.

I had an out of state hunter come into our base camp who had blown up his compound on an accidental dry fire and I offered to let him use one of my stick bows.  He said he wouldn't know what to do with it, but asked if I knew of a local archery shop where he could maybe get his cables replaced. I recommended a few shops in towns several hours away.  He made the trip and got his compound fixed and was back in business. I had him pick me up some fish hooks while he was in town too.  We should all show mutual respect and courtesy, because we all need each other to make this work.

The compound bows of today are so far removed from the world of recurves/longbows, that it's hard to compare the two.

However, I started with a Bear compound in 1985 (I was 19 years old), and was extremely proud of it. It was a really big thing to me, and changed my life. At the time, I didn't think recurves and longbows were still available. Imagine if someone came up to me and gave me crap about not shooting a recurve.  I would think those people were real jerks.

And thats what happened.  I was drawn for the 1989 McAlester Army Ammunition Depot hunt in SE Oklahoma. A third of the hunters shot traditional.    Most of them couldn't hit the side of a barn, but several made sure to point out how much better they were since they shot recurves/longbows.

Anyway, I switched to a recurve in 1993. But I was surprised last fall when I went hunting with a buddy in Tennessee. He didn't like my carbon arrows; they weren't traditional enough!

I started with trad equipment before it was trad. Just archery equipment. Got in on the compound fad but never used sights. Ditto for two older brothers... compounds but no sights.

We stopped in an archery shop in NC on vacation and the owner asked what type of sights we used on our bows back home... when my brother said, "we don't use sights"... he came unglued! He ranted and raved and actually seemed to want to whip all three of us over it.

That is as close to "elitism" that I ever encountered.

I've seen and read plenty of elitism from traditional archers but seen and read a lot more wannabes.

QuoteOriginally posted by overbo:
I've seen and read plenty of elitism from traditional archers but seen and read a lot more wannabes.

That sounds a bit elitist right there.  Is that a judgement based on skill level, time in the sport...basic ability or. ????   What defines a "wannabe" vs. a fine, professional, highly skilled archer like yourself.    Seems to me as long as we are all outside flinging arrows and having a good time things are good.  Not sure we should look down on others based on skill or ability just As we shouldn't because of equipment.  At least that's the way I see it.  

I "wannabe" a really good archer...still working to get there.  Not sure I would pass your test Overbo.

Some of the elitism that is perceived is a backlash to what bowhunting is currently being portrayed as by the the hunting industry, media, and celebrity hunters.  What is shown on TV typically involves compound shooters and has very little relevance to the hunting experience that most of us seek.  Negative perceptions associated with this image get attributed to the bows themselves and people who shoot them.  Of course there are good people that shoot compound bows, but the generalization is reinforced every time you tune in to outdoor television and feel that reaction.

I have a few archery friends, none shoot trad.  They don't shoot very often, I'm the one that's all "ate up" with it.  We don't shoot together much.

I've recounted this stories a couple times lately because it is even more relevant today:
Sometime in the early 80's when trad bows were becoming an oddity my dad and I where shooting somewhere (maybe Mudjaw in Toledo)  I don't remember the place but I'll never forget the lesson.  He was shooting his Howard Hill and I was shooting some recurve and a another guy came up with a compound and I smarted off something about compounds not real bows or some such nonsense just to my dad and he quickly cracked me upside the head to get my attention and said "look here son, I don't care what bow you shoot, if you shoot a bow then your a brother of mine and don't forget that". Haven't forgot that to this day.

I am extremely lucky, because I only met great people shooting trad

F-Manny

If someone thinks they are a special breed based on the type of archery equipment they choose to use,critize others for their choice, then,they dont really have many problems in life, do they? "Elitist" is just another word for A$$----.

Well, I would say a large % of us traditional bow hunters are far more impressed by animals taken w/ longbows and recurves than gun, compounds, ect. You hear and read it all the time and I've been on enough archery forums to know that you never read the hoopla that a doe taken w/ a trad. bow creates when compared other methods. I also hear trad. bow hunters use phrase '' if they used a trad. bow ''. If killing game w/ a trad. bow is looked at as such an accomplishment. I can't see how it doesn't affect ones ego.  It's the heart of why we do this. I read all the politically correct words from the trad. bow hunters on this thread but if you choose to '' take the challenge'' and succeed. I can't see how one doesn't pump their chest a bit.

I've been in archery for 45 years (not counting the early teens of just plinking around). I shot recurves for the first 6 years and then compounds for the next 34. I've been shooting recurves again since 2010 and also occasionally a compound.

I point out this longevity for this reason:  While I don't consider this elitism I have read lots of people exhibit disdain for the compound but I have never heard a compound person trash the recurve or longbow.  It is common to read "training wheels", vertical x-bow, etc., even on these pages.

My use of the recurve stirs nostalgic emotions of my early days in archery more than any other emotion. Frankly, as corny as this is going to "sound" the use of the recurve increases my already strong affection for archery.

The majority of my hunting friends shoot wheelie bows. They have all invited me to hunt one guy has even offered up a spot where he knows I could get a close enough shot with my long bow. They all respect the way I hunt.

I've found it's not the equipment in the persons hand that creates the attitude,but rather the ego that person carries with them.I've never looked down on anyone,but I've walked away from folks who tried to tell me their way was better.I'll shoot beside ANY archer all day long.
Leland

Some shoot a bow.  Others shoot a compound.  Still others shoot an arrow-gun.  Many, many, more use guns that fire bullets. They are all hunters.  I have found that ones hunting ethics has little correlation to the weapon used, but a significant correlation to their character.  I hunt with anybody who has similar ethics as myself, regardless of the weapon used.  

That said, why is hunting one of the few sports that wants one to accept every change in technology and still claim it is the same?  If one is involved with tennis (or many other sports) and somebody decides to use a mechanized serving machine that, launces the ball at 300 mph, within +/- an inch of its intended location, with 99.99% certainty, is one expected to recognize the "progressive changes" as the same sport?  One of the basic tenets of tennis has changed.  How about allowing the pitcher to use a pitching machine that he can crank up the speed of the ball to 210 mph with exact placement of every pitch.  Is dropping the ball into the machine still pitching?  Rail on me all you want, but when you use a machine that doubles the performance and requires aids (trigger) to operate, it is no longer the same sport.  

Are they hunters?  Yes!  

Are they bowhunters? I do not think they are.  

If pointing out the the obvious makes me an elitist, so be it.  Frankly, I don't much care what you call me for telling the truth.

Excellent post Walt   :thumbsup:  
Darcy

QuoteOriginally posted by Walt Francis:
That said, why is hunting one of the few sports that wants one to accept every change in technology and still claim it is the same?.....................  Rail on me all you want, but when you use a machine that doubles the performance and requires aids (trigger) to operate, it is no longer the same sport.  

Are they hunters?  Yes!  

Are they bowhunters? I do not think they are.  

You won't hear me railing on you Walt. I'm no man of 'all you can eat technology' in our sport. I disagree with most of it, and can't relate to some of it. The things that our 50 states call 'bows' don't look like a bow to me...but they carry that definition and I guess the water under the bridge isn't going back up-hill...even if I wish it could. I personally suspect that some of the elitism is really more about anger and frustration of a few, vs superiority-thinking by many. One guy in a crowd says something derogatory (about a bow) and the whole entire crowd is labeled as 'a bunch of elitist jerks'... which we know isn't even close to accurate.

I didn't use to tolerate earrings in men, excessive tattoos, hybrid longbows, clickers, stoners and butt-out tools. I guess I still don't prefer any of them, but I no longer spend any time railing about them. Maybe I'd be labeled an elitist if I said I still prefer to use good nav skills over a gps...I don't know. But I do think the elitist thing goes away when guys stop making comparisons (and judgments) about a man's qualities and character based solely on his main weapon.

I've met some awfully nice people who I probably would have disdained not too many years ago. That said, I'm admittedly more comfortable knowing my son-in-law has no 'ink' or facial hardware. I'm just me...and trying to get better before my own tag gets punched.    ;)

Exactly Walt. I have been avoiding commenting on this post becuse I frankly couldnt figure out how to say how I felt about it. Well you did it for me, and nailed it!! Thanks

Elitism-
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

I do enjoy Walt's analogy, it is a good one. While I don't want to always play devil advocate, I do want us to have an honest debate too.

Looking at the above definition, who's the elitist?

The truth is, I'm not sure states have a "bow season". Most states I'm aware of have an "archery season". That's totally different than a "bow" season.

Secondly, the basic design concept of the cross "bowed" weapon in question has been around since 5000 BC, so we aren't honest when we call it a "change" or "new".

Lots of things are "new". Laminated bows are new. Aluminum is new. Carbon is new. Goretex is new. Takedown bows are new. A takedown with a fast flight string hurling an arrow at nearly 190fps is new. In the grand scheme, even plaid is "new", when considering the historical arch, no pun intended.

Given what elitism is, it very well may be that many traditional archers consider themselves as "the elite" of the sport of "bow hunting", myself included.

Just something to chew on.

I don't judge someone based on the weapon they carry.  In fact, two of the people that I hunt with most often carry compounds and I have and will continue to hunt with them anywhere.  But that is only because they have high ethical standards and respect for the game we are after.

They hunt the same way I do,  taking only close and ethical shots. They challenge themselves and treasure bowhunting just as I do.  They scout the woods and practice with their equipment.  They improve habitat and work to become better hunters year round.

What frustrates many of us is the unending advance of technology and the general attitude of many that the easier way is always better.  Shoot farther with less effort and practice.  Kill more,  fill your tags, and get back home early.  Whatever it takes to make it easier is the path many seem to take.

That's not the way I hunt and I don't relate to those that do.  It has nothing to do with the equipment that is carried and everything to do with the attitude of the hunter.  But I think it is safe to say that the easier is better crowd gravitates toward more and more advanced weaponry.

As technology continues unabated in our archery seasons I can't help but wonder where it will led us.  Although here in my home state the game department currently wants deer numbers reduced we are still dealing with a limited resource.  As hunters become more and more efficient success rates here continue to climb.  Will there come a time when our generous seasons and limits must be reduced?  

It is hard to deny that technology has changed bow hunting dramatically over the past 40 years.  And the advance seems to be gaining speed rather than slowing down.  I recall reading many years ago that compounds had advanced about as far as they could and there was little yet to be gained in their evolution.  Oh how wrong that proved to be!  

Can anyone really tell me what bowhunting will look like 40 years from now?  Will it be anything like the sport we enjoy today,  or will we ultimately lose what we have?  Will seasons have been reduced to two weeks each year in order to accommodate the efficiency of the weapons used?

To me,  the difference boils down to those who treasure our sport for the challenge it provides versus those who "Stack 'em and whack' em".  Does it make me elitist to think I am different from them?  I guess maybe it does.  But it has nothing to do with equipment and everything to do with attitude.

We have to establish if being "elite" is even a negative or pejorative. Is being "elite" a bad thing? If so, why? Or why not?

Should MLB ban the "All Star Game" because players not selected may be offended? Would the Bin Laden raid have turned out differently if we'd have sent in the Delta Kappa paintball team versus the elite Seals?

There's a major difference being elite and snobbery. I suspect everyone wants to be a part of the elite and nobody wants to be deemed a snob.

The history of the word snob is interesting. "The word "snobbery" came into use the first time in England during the 1820s. It was said to have derived from the habit of many Oxford and Cambridge colleges of writing sine nobilitate (without nobility) or s.nob. next to the names of ordinary students on examination lists in order to distinguish them from their aristocratic schoolmates."

I doubt many here would want to associate themselves with nobility or aristocrats. So the lines of definition we're trying to walk is sometimes rather fine.

I've been shooting traditional bows for some time now. I started out shooting a compound but a friend of mine back then was shooting and hunting with a longbow and it interested me. Once I tried shooting his bow I was hooked and just had to get my own traditional bow.my first bow was a 3 piece recurve. I have moved on to shooting only traditional bows. My compound is collecting dust. I like the simplicity of traditional archery. Hitting the woods carrying  minimal equipment weight and most important to me, way less GADGETS that every compound and cross bow shooter carries into the woods.

Now I'm going to say something taboo here but I also belong to another hunting web site that mostly concentrates on fishing and hunting in my home state. The attitude to most their towards Traditional Archers is positive and mostly welcome. BUT I have seen some GADGET shooters call Traditional shooters snobs, and elitists.

Hey I don't care what you shoot. As long as your hunting method and choice of equipment is legal and you take the time to practice with your equipment I have no issues with you.

In closing I do not like going to archery shoots where traditional bows, compounds and cross bows are all thrown into the mix because the Gadget Guys/Gals spend too much time looking through binoculars then range finders and binoculars again before coming to full draw and holding their draw for 5 minutes before they shoot a single arrow, and it's the same for EVERY shot they take. They take multiple shots at each target and go through the same scenario for each shot. Hey man the target hasn't moved just let the arrow fly already!

I dont think there is anything wrong with a compound, or crossbow or rifle, or handgun. All are great hunting tools. I do not consider the coumpound to be a bow. I think like Walt said, it is a different method of hunting all together. Nothing wrong with it, other than it should be called compound hunting.

I think what we're talking about may be more a matter of interpretation, vs an accepted definition. Being considered an elite individual is generally a compliment of regard for skills and accomplishments...abilities. On the other hand, elitism (interpretation here remember) smacks more of a self-pronunciation of being an 'elite', either by regard of one's own skills and abilities...or by association with others who share a similar viewpoint. Some folks actually enjoy thinking of themselves as a member of an elite group, whether that's the reality or just the interpretation.


I've seen more than my share of elitist bowhunters and archers carrying equipment from selfbows to the most modern bows available. The weapon isn't the key thing...nor does the presence or absence of technology indicate whether one is elite. It might indicate how one prefers to hunt, and that might be differently than others. Elitism to me is the simple conveyance of an attitude of superiority (and comes off sometimes as snobbery) which inevitably ends up in a negative interpretation.


I can end this post by saying that many people who are truly considered elite by their peers often display genuine humility and disregard for the label of 'elite'. Those are the people I most enjoy spending time with, and there usually isn't the slightest hint of elitism, disdain or snobbishness in them. They are outstanding people; outstanding at what they do, and any descriptive of being 'elite' is totally off their radar.

I can agree with all of that Kevin. I think we got a little off track since the topic was an elitest attitude. I think some of this has to do with when you actually started getting your feet wet in bowhunting. I am sure many on here started with a compound. I myself started in 1968, and I'm sure there are many on here that started long before me, so some of it might be a matter of perception. I do not consider myself to be any better than a compound shooter,only different.

No matter the endeavor, we as people tend to look at it from our own perspective and give it credit (or not) accordingly.

I don't hate crossbows or compounds, but.. having experienced a fair amount in my young 59 years, I will say, in MY view, there is no comparison between each.  They all do similar things in different ways.  And. .  there is no question that there is a built in ease or dummying down in each step.  

But, even with that, so what.  I shoot my bows because that's what I do.  You shoot yours (bow, mechanical bows, rifles, whatever).  I have certain goals and expectations for each outing.  They are NOT the same as yours, and certainly not the same as a rifle toter.  Again.. so what ?

Because one thing is more difficult to achieve, takes more practice, more time etc, does not make that person elite.  It just is what it is and the tack I will pursue involves sticks and strings.

ChuckC

I don't look down on anyone that wants to enjoy hunting through the myriad of means to do so.  Anyone that spends money in hunting and its peripheral industries is empowering the lobby that preserves our right to hunt.  For example, if a guy sees a crossbow, says "cool", and is interested in hunting for the first time in his life, this is a good thing.  My Dad took his compound out several times last season, but most days elected to go with his longbow; he's the best hunter I know by a country mile.  I haven't hunted with a compound since 2009, but prior to my switch the man that became my traditional mentor would challenge me to take off the "training wheels."  I wasn't offended by this because my skin is opaque, and I could tell he meant it in jest.  My issue, as a Texas hunter, is with the Texas Parks and Wildlife permitting crossbow hunters to hunt in the October Archery season.  Even a surface dive into the capabilities of the modern crossbow should reveal that this weapon has no place in the archery only season.  Should they get a head start on the rifle hunter?  I'm sure that could be arranged; Texas has a very long season.  Prior to September, 1 2009 the law would permit crossbows to accommodate those with physical impairments, specifically upper limb disabilities. That incarnation of the law was very reasonable, but I would have gone one step further to include paraplegics with full upper body mobility.  They are immensely challenged, and deserve that privilege.

I was a long time compound bow shooter and till own one.  I hesitated to get involved in Trad due to know friends doing it and fear of the unknown.  When I finally made the switch my only regret was not doing it sooner!  I still own and shoot both types of bows and am falling more and more in love with traditional archery.

My point is that if "wheels" guys look down on a Trad archery it is out of ignorance of Trad and no understanding of the history or archery not necessarily just hating on Trad or being cocky.  

Be nice, try to educate or explain the challenge or Trad, lead by example and open their eyes to how much fun it is and their minds and attitudes will follow. Atleast that is my opionion.

Remember, most compound shooters don't even know that 100's of bowyers still make Trad bows, Tradgang exists, clubs and org. are out there, rendezvous still happen or how fun stump shooting can be.  If they did they would join us in all the fun.

I personally try to find the good in any archery guy no matter what they shoot.

I only recall one direct instance of this and it was from another traditional shooter. He saw me with my longbow and said "Oh another stick-bow shooter" then took a step back and acted offended that he wasn't the only traditional guy on the range 99.9% of the people I have met anywhere at a traditional shoot extend the hand holding their bow for you to check out if you act interested while they reach for your bow, this guy clutched his bow to his chest until I offered mine then reluctantly handed his over, this may not have been intentional on his part it's just the "vibe" I got. Shoot what you want, don't look down on anybody who  hunts the right way with whatever their weapon of choice is and if we really cared what people thought would we be shooting these things?

I been shooting and making bows for 25 years.  I think the so called elites are not as bad now as in years past. I remember putting fast flight on my first bows and that was terrible and was told and read all the bows would break.  Didn't happen.  Then they went after carbon arrows even when they were heavier than their woodies.  Now most people shoot them. Just be glad you live in a country were you can hunt and use your best judgement on equipment and not live to please someone else.

To me, "elite" has more to do with the mastery of the equipment and techniques chosen, and not the choice itself.

Regarding equipment- my hunting pard is a compound shooter and I didn't care. But I no longer respect him...

When he accidently killed a spike bull in a restricted area (while hunting with someone else) and he left the animal but for the back straps else "go through the hassle of contacting a game warden and then waiting hours" or "put his buddies at risk" by filling their truck with an illegal elk, well, that was the end of that relationship.

What I am saying is: let it be the archers ethics, their dignity in representing the sport, their skill of the hunt, that determines our  attitudes toward them. Not the gear.

Joshua

The evening before our rifle season in MD my host's son and I do a bowhunt for Sika deer. He uses a crossbow and I use a recurve. Our common goal is to kill a deer and we root for each other. We are hunters period.

The next day we both are using rifles. Our common goal is to kill a deer and we root for each other. We are both hunters.

Get my point?

QuoteOriginally posted by Walt Francis:
Some shoot a bow.  Others shoot a compound.  Still others shoot an arrow-gun.  Many, many, more use guns that fire bullets. They are all hunters.  I have found that ones hunting ethics has little correlation to the weapon used, but a significant correlation to their character.  I hunt with anybody who has similar ethics as myself, regardless of the weapon used.  

That said, why is hunting one of the few sports that wants one to accept every change in technology and still claim it is the same?  If one is involved with tennis (or many other sports) and somebody decides to use a mechanized serving machine that, launces the ball at 300 mph, within +/- an inch of its intended location, with 99.99% certainty, is one expected to recognize the "progressive changes" as the same sport?  One of the basic tenets of tennis has changed.  How about allowing the pitcher to use a pitching machine that he can crank up the speed of the ball to 210 mph with exact placement of every pitch.  Is dropping the ball into the machine still pitching?  Rail on me all you want, but when you use a machine that doubles the performance and requires aids (trigger) to operate, it is no longer the same sport.  

Are they hunters?  Yes!  

Are they bowhunters? I do not think they are.  

If pointing out the the obvious makes me an elitist, so be it.  Frankly, I don't much care what you call me for telling the truth.

Sorry Walt but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. What you think is obvious, really isn't.  First of all, compounds, recurves, and longbows are all "bows."  They are also all "machines." Recurves and longbows are simple machines, and a compound bow is a compound machine, hence it's name.

Second, the machine, whether it is a recurve, longbow or compound requires the same human function.  If I shoot a compound bow with fingers, and no sight, does that make it a real bow?  Or if I shoot a recurve with a release and a sight, is it now too much of a machine?

As to technology, are a Model A Ford and Ford Mustang both automobiles, or is one an automobile and the other a spaceship?  Does modern technology enable one go twice as fast as the other?  

How about a hickory shafted driver, and a steel or graphite shafted Calloway Big Bertha.  Is one a golf club and the other something else?  Does modern technology enable one to propel a golf ball twice as far as the other?  Does perimeter waiting, radiused soles, and offset heads enable one to be more accurate than the other?  

How about a wooden tennis racket with cat gut strings, compared to a modern graphite racket with an oversized head and synthetic strings?  Are the latter no longer tennis rackets?  

Using your definition, the "basic tenets" of archery have not changed. Bows are faster, just like tennis rackets and golf clubs.  Some of them use technology and mechanical advantages, but at the end of the day, they still require a human being to draw them or swing them, aim them, and put the ball or arrow that they launch where it needs to go.

Crossbows are a different story.  They require a completely different human function (or lack thereof) to operate.  Yes, they propel and arrow, but that is where the similarities end.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
We have to establish if being "elite" is even a negative or pejorative. Is being "elite" a bad thing? If so, why? Or why not?

Should MLB ban the "All Star Game" because players not selected may be offended? Would the Bin Laden raid have turned out differently if we'd have sent in the Delta Kappa paintball team versus the elite Seals?

There's a major difference being elite and snobbery. I suspect everyone wants to be a part of the elite and nobody wants to be deemed a snob.

The history of the word snob is interesting. "The word "snobbery" came into use the first time in England during the 1820s. It was said to have derived from the habit of many Oxford and Cambridge colleges of writing sine nobilitate (without nobility) or s.nob. next to the names of ordinary students on examination lists in order to distinguish them from their aristocratic schoolmates."

I doubt many here would want to associate themselves with nobility or aristocrats. So the lines of definition we're trying to walk is sometimes rather fine.

You are confusing terms.  

Comparing "elite" to "elitist" is like comparing "ego" with "egotist."  Being "elite" does not make one an "elitist" any more than having an "ego" makes one an "egotist."

Taking either one to the   "ist"  realm is a character flaw.

X 2 on Tooner's comments. My sentiments exactly

Dave

I am proud to say that on TradGang you can have such a civil discussion on this type of topic.

    :campfire:

I agree things are civil here but too be fair I'm aware of another as well.

Roy -

NASP is great for teaching respect as well as archery! The kids may start with compounds for economic and/or safety concerns, but as they develop their skills they are encouraged to follow their own dreams. If they dream of the Olympics, they naturally switch to recurve bows. Some of them even go on to hunt with trad bows for the pure joy of it.

After all, the true elite are the hogs, deer, turkeys and other critters that outwit us puny humans every day.

Duly noted Roy, so I edited my post.    :campfire: