I ran across a recent thread about being more concerned with cast than speed. Can someone explain the difference for me? In my mind I assumed the faster bow would have a flatter cast and a slower bow would have more arch to the cast, or more drop. What am I missing? Is cast related to how efficient the bow is at transferring the energy?
Cast refers to how far the arrow carries. Assuming the same arrow,the faster arrow will always go further.
Every now and then I hear about a bow that isn't particularly fast but has great cast. Just doesn't work that way.
Something to think about . Bow A has a 500 gr. arrow leaving the bow at 150 f.p.s. with 0 lb on the nock from the string . Bow B has a 500 gr. arrow leaving the bow at 150 f.p.s. with 30 lb. of force on the arrow nock . Which has better cast ?
Ring it Is a non sense. If you add 30 lb of pushing force you will get just ...a faster arrow.
The kinetic energy of the arrow is what make it fly. Then assuming same arrows from different bows, the one which goes further is the one with higher kinetic energy out of the bows.
KE= 0.5 * mass * speed 2
More speed means more energy and more flight ( cast) for a same arrow, and that's all
It would seem that once the arrow "leaves the bow" it is on its own and none of the other things matter. If A and B are really off the bow at the same speed, they will go near the same distance.
If you mean it takes 30 pounds of force to remove the arrow nock from the string, I'd say that is gonna be one noisy bow with arrow flight problems.
ChuckC
If the aerodynamics of the two projectiles are exact and weight is exact the bows are equal in cast but perhaps not in efficiency. The arrow is traveling exactly the same speed so the cast is the same.
God bless, Steve
Where are the TG physics teachers to settle this? :knothead:
Speed is a four letter word cast is not! LOL Go figure :p
In the glossary in the back of TBBIV the definition of cast is..."Sometimes the distance a bow sends an arrow, but more accurately the speed of the arrow leaving the bow". There was no definition for speed.
Two arrows leave their bows at the same speed. One arrow weighs 600 grains and the other weighs 300 grains. One arrow has 5" feathers and the other arrow has 2" vanes. One arrow wobbles and the other flies straight. Which will go further? I dunno, but I can guarantee you they won't hit in the same place, by a substantial margin. Why? Wind resistance. The arrow with more inertia (weight), the arrow with a lower profile (vanes), and the arrow that doesn't wobble will have less wind resistance and therefore a greater cast, even though leaving the bow at the same speed.
Hybrid: are you saying that cast is more accurately KE? Which would make it related to speed but not equivalent.
Pat's definition suggests they are one and the same, cast is referring to how far the arrow will travel or the relative drop in flight but that's purely based on speed (all else with the arrow being equal).
I hear what you're saying Steve, two arrows an have the same cast/speed but one bow maybe much less efficient in producing the same result. I guess when people are typically referring to cast (or speed for that matter) the assumption is that all of the other variables are equivalent and held constant.
I always took "cast" to be the flight path of the arrow....i.e. ....trajectory. I believe weight/cast ratio to be more important than speed/cast. Arrow weight..(penetration) far outweighs speed where killing potential is concerned...JMO
I think "good cast" and "excellent arrow flight" are mutually inclusive terms.
Speed is what my wife does when she drives the car.
Cast is what is on my arm after she whacks me for complaining about her speed!
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Dale hit it.
Cast refers to how far a bow will launch an arrow. It is a distance measurement.
Speed is a measurement of distance traveled over a period of time.
They will be directly related as a bow that throws an arrow further will move the same arrow faster than a bow with less cast.
Neither means squat if you can't hit what you want.
It's simple. Faster bows cast an arrow farther. Speed of a precisely weighed arrow from a bow with a precisely weighed draw weight at a precisely measured draw length is an immutable measurement. Bows that have higher speed MEASURED PRECISELY will always out perform slower bows ceteris paribus.
How far an arrow carries gets us into flight shooting. And there, how well tuned the arrow is to the bow is much more important than the bow by itself. So it's possible to have an "inferior" bow "cast" an arrow farther than a "superior" bow with less-well-tuned arrows.
Flight shooting is a fun sport but it tells little to nothing about the bow. Flight shooting contests are conducted in varying winds with imperfect (human) inputs. It's an interesting contest but is not by itself a definitive measurement of how well a bow performs.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Speed is a four letter word cast is not! LOL Go figure :p
Exactly.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
Speed is what my wife does when she drives the car.
Cast is what is on my arm after she whacks me for complaining about her speed!
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Awesome!
Cast is what guys with slow bows like to say. Cracks me up whenever someone writes, yeah but it casts a heavy arrow well, as if a faster bow wouldn't a do a better job of it.
Well if a person doesn't have a chrono and wants to compare two bows, cast is the best way. I have shot bows that I would have thought were much faster than another, but when they where chrono'd side by side, the one that "seemed" faster wasn't. Think it went was because the one that seemed faster actually had more hand shock/vibration. I feel that sometimes a exceptionally smooth bow may "seem" slower that it actually is. That is one reason I don't put much stock into claims that a bow is faster without a chrono.
I agree that a fast bow will always cast an arrow farther than a slow bow (given well tuned arrows is each) but don't discount cast as a way to compare bows if you don't have a chrono.
And. . why does any of this matter ?
CHuckC
Cast and speed are both attempts at measuring performance. The term cast is well recorded in history and simply means how far an arrow is cast, thrown, kicked or flipped. Distance was the only measurable method of comparison before speed became measurable and "how far can you cast an arrow" was shortened to "cast."
Once the ability to measurable "speed" was added to the mix, it created two measurable factors, fps and measured distance. The human nature to "compare" stuff will always be part of our being and folks use one of the other to prove "their" bow is better.
Cast and speed are not the same but related. Cast is simply the distance an arrow is shot. Speed if how many fps the arrow was traveling at some distance, generally pretty close to the bow.
Cast cannot influence the bow, it simply measures the distance an arrow was cast by the bow. Speed, on the other hand, is a factor that can influence the cast or distance an arrow can be shot from a bow. There are other factors besides speed that can influence the cast/distance an arrow can be shot as well.
I'm with Chuck C. For our hunting purposes who cares about cast.
I have never known anyone who tested a bow for cast. And if you were wanting that information you would have to have identical bows is poundage with same exact string material and number of strands, with the exact same silencers, and the exact same arrow from a shooting machine with the exact same draw length. Who cares?
But to answer the original posters question, Cast in how far a bow shoots an arrow in distance.
I was taught oh those many years ago that it wasn't how fast a bow shot, but how heavy an arrow was delivered accurately. Cast was more about how well a bow handled/shot a heavy arrow. Is that efficiency-how much energy was delivered to the arrow upon release? Can a bow be fast, but not shoot a heavy arrow as well as a slower bow?
Looks like it is time to get out and do some hunting rather than banter over terminology. I'm going out and 'cast' some arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Liquid Amber:
Cast and speed are both attempts at measuring performance. The term cast is well recorded in history and simply means how far an arrow is cast, thrown, kicked or flipped. Distance was the only measurable method of comparison before speed became measurable and "how far can you cast an arrow" was shortened to "cast."
Once the ability to measurable "speed" was added to the mix, it created two measurable factors, fps and measured distance. The human nature to "compare" stuff will always be part of our being and folks use one of the other to prove "their" bow is better.
Cast and speed are not the same but related. Cast is simply the distance an arrow is shot. Speed if how many fps the arrow was traveling at some distance, generally pretty close to the bow.
Cast cannot influence the bow, it simply measures the distance an arrow was cast by the bow. Speed, on the other hand, is a factor that can influence the cast or distance an arrow can be shot from a bow. There are other factors besides speed that can influence the cast/distance an arrow can be shot as well.
x2
Cast should be left for fishing !!!
Cast is a fine old historic term. A fast bow will always be faster, however, some bows have a history of shooting different weight arrows with less variance than others. Even though said bow was/is overall slower, that less of a difference from light arrow to heavy arrow gave the bow the qualifications of having good cast with a heavier arrow. Recently, I wanted to check the speeds of my four low 50s bows against each other. The chronographs that I could use would not agree with each other for speed, so I went to an abandoned golf course and checked them for cast. The differences in cast were minimal, buy they were consistent. I cast my arrows when I shoot them, it just does not sound right to say I speed my arrows when I shoot them.
Quote
I ran across a recent thread about being more concerned with cast than speedIf you were a flight distance shooter, this would be true as you would be trying to shoot an arrow as far as you could per given bow weight & bow type.
The arrow has as much or more to do with flight shooting (cast) as the bow itself.
Increased velocity may contribute to greater cast but increased velocity does not insure further cast; an example of this would be a 550 gr. Flu flu arrow shot at the same velocity as a 350 gr. flight arrow with 1" straight fletch. I am not a flight shooter but know that a lot of effort goes into tuning arrows to bows to optimize potential.
As hunters we are typically more concerned about velocity and that velocity within a predetermined, acceptable hunting distance i.e. < 30 yds.
Cast and velocity are not the same thing.
Kris
What a fun thread! :biglaugh: I like Bisch's answer the best....
Look up the definition of Cast. We could have a ball with this one... I think it's one of the parts the arrow plays in the archery drama... then again... The bow is part of the cast too, as well as the animals we hunt.
seriously.... i believe in most cases the term cast is most commonly used to describe trajectory arch. The speed will effect the arrow cast..... also "The distance of the cast", used as a verb, is dictated by the elevation of the bow at release, and doesn't refer to the "arrow cast" at all. It refers to the act of casting an arrow, not to be confused with an arrow casting sometimes found in fossils...
Does that make sense? :laughing: :laughing:
As an engineer and after more than 40 years of experience with traditional bows, I don't think you can compare 2 bows by cast, speed or by any other performance measurement if it is shot by a human. There are just to many unknowable variables from shot to shot (and bow to bow) to know which one is causing the observed reaction. Additionally the human subconscious is very efficient at driving results in the preferred direction (humans are very biased and the bias will show). The important thing is that the bow feels good, is quite and shoots the arrow where aimed for said human - and this will very from human to human. The one chosen may be the fastest, it may not. I am also of the opinion that there isn't enough difference between various bows of a particular design to worry about it. So find the style of bow you want to shoot (to satisfy your bias) and compare various models for how they feels to you. For me it is 60-62 inch recurve, I have found that I always prefer a bow of this type if the handle feels good.
If you truly want to compare two bows of the same draw weight, you need a shooting machine, arrows of the same weight precisely tuned to each bow (when shot by said machine) and some means of measuring the velocity as this is the only remaining variable. Evan with this you need to take enough shots with each arrow that you can complete a meaningful statistical evaluation to make any conclusions.
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
I'm with Chuck C. For our hunting purposes who cares about cast.
I have never known anyone who tested a bow for cast. And if you were wanting that information you would have to have identical bows is poundage with same exact string material and number of strands, with the exact same silencers, and the exact same arrow from a shooting machine with the exact same draw length. Who cares?
But to answer the original posters question, Cast in how far a bow shoots an arrow in distance.
I agree but do acknowledge some states have laws on the book about how far a bow should cast an arrow to be a legal hunting weapon. I've never heard of a game warden making you prove it though.
I'm with the guys who say cast is a distance measurement and speed is a distance over time measurement. Obviously speed affects the cast but cast is such a fancy word and must be used by discriminating toxiphiles in describing their bows.
I stand corrected, per the definition of cast from The Traditional Bowyer's Bible IV:
"Sometimes it is the distance a bow sends an arrow, but more accurately, it is the speed of the arrow leaving the bow." TBB IV
I would have gotten that wrong on an exam.
Kris
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
Looks like it is time to get out and do some hunting rather than banter over terminology. I'm going out and 'cast' some arrows.
I would have to agree.
Some of those archaic laws on the books were put there by fellows (on other websites of course) that start or fuel digital fights.
Wouldn't cast be what you are doing when bow fishing??? :thumbsup:
A faster bow will always have better cast than the slower ''IF'' all conditions are ideal.
When factoring in human error. IMO, some designs are more forgiven to human error. Which in turn can be why a specific archer can accomplish better cast w/ a slower bow than a faster one w/ all other things being equal.
QuoteOriginally posted by FerretWYO:
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
Looks like it is time to get out and do some hunting rather than banter over terminology. I'm going out and 'cast' some arrows.
I would have to agree. [/b]
Reading arguments about this stuff gives me a headache. :(
I'm going pig hunting this weekend. I'll be using my setup that is fastest, and consequently the one that also has the best cast. :p
Well...it's okay to understand and agree upon terminology, obviously, so we are on the same page when discussing topics.
Kris
Right from the Howard Hill Archery...
All Howard Hill longbows are laminated, with fiberglass backing for a maximum of strength and durability. These straight-end longbows give you speed, stability and cast. They are feather light in the hand and have excellent maneuverability. Our bows will generally shoot a minimum speed of 115 feet per second plus the weight of the bow (i.e. a 65# bow should shoot at least 180 fps and may exceed that minimum considering variables in bow length, draw length, and arrow weight).
Maybe someone should have Craig explain the difference. I just want shoot and hunt and not worry about what each means.
NEWBY ALERT!!
I love analogies, helps me understand complicated things.
I would not want to pull a semi load od canned goods with a corvette. For that I want K-whopper of Mack.
Yes the 'vette is faster, but it won't handle the heavier lo
ad as well.
Is there any relationship in this to cast and speed, assuming we are dealing with heavier/lighter arrows?
Hill style bows have more cast than any other bow. That is they can cast a spell on you from further away than any other bow.
right on. . I think the point is, what ever speed is given to the arrow is given while the arrow is on the string. Once it is off, it is on its own.
. . That doesn't change anything here. Two
Some bows are alleged to throw heavier arrows more efficiently than others and vice versa. Whateveridentical arrows going the same speed and with the same flight (tuned etc, had to throw that in) will go generally the same distance.
I agree, cast was the word used in "the day" because that was the only real way to measure the bows performance. Now we generally (but not always) cite speed.
Again it begs the question. . so what ? My bow performs as it does. I am not likely going to trade it off for another to gain 5 feet of "cast". At 20 yards, no critter will care about my bow's cast or speed.
Pavan. . I think you may be correct there !
So. . extend this wonderful discussion. How many angels could dance on the head of an arrow (assuming a 175 grain head) while it is being cast into the north wind ? :help:
CHuckC
While you all try to figure this out I'm going to go shoot my unchronographed bow :)
QuoteOriginally posted by achigan:
NEWBY ALERT!!
I love analogies, helps me understand complicated things.
I would not want to pull a semi load od canned goods with a corvette. For that I want K-whopper of Mack.
Yes the 'vette is faster, but it won't handle the heavier lo
ad as well.
Is there any relationship in this to cast and speed, assuming we are dealing with heavier/lighter arrows?
I think you would be talking horsepower vs. torque. I don't thing that would be a fair comparison to cast vs. speed. Maybe more like horsepower vs. mpg!!
Chuck C:I agree, cast was the word used in "the day" because that was the only real way to measure the bows performance. Now we generally (but not always) cite speed
Exactly, Back in the time before we had Chronographs the only real way we had to check a bows performance was to take two bows of exactly the same poundage and shoot the same arrow out of it. We had to do that several times because we had to rely on the shooter pulling the same distance and same angle. We would put a piece of tape or mark on the arrow to make sure we pulled it the same distance and we would watch the shooter to try to get the same angle.
The bow that (CAST) the arrow the farthest was the bow with more cast ( actually put more of its power into the arrow flight).
We can now easily judge that by testing with machines and chronographs and much more accurately determine the bow efficiency.
God bless, Steve