Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: longbow fanatic 1 on March 12, 2014, 07:19:00 PM
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First off, I want to express that I don't have a dog in this fight. With all due respect, I could care less if you have the fastest trad bow made. Nor could I care less if you have the slowest trad bow made.
My question/observation is this: what drives you in this area? Is a quite bow your goal, a fast bow your goal, or both? Is both even possible?
When I shot wheelie bows, as many of you did, all I heard was speed. You know, the next fastest bow. Since joining the trad community, there is a segment of our community concerned with speed. For me, I would rather have a quiet, slow bow than a fast, loud bow.
Please enlighten me. I'm not looking to start an argument. I'm just trying to understand what the difference is between 187 fps versus 200 fps?
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Quiet first then speed if possible.
In fact, I feel that I shoot better, more consistent with a bow that is maybe a little slower. Probably will get slammed for that comment. I think it is because of my less than perfect form/release. A fast bow seems (to me) to magnify my flaws. YMMV
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Uh, 13 fps? Just kidding. I like quiet also. but there are some fast quiet bows, Centaur, A&H. Both of these are quick and quiet.
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I want my bows to be as quite as possible. But I (being a wheelie convert myself) also like for them to he as fast as possible.
If I have two different bows that shoot the same arrow equally well and sound just the same on a decibel scale(whatever that may be)...one of them shoots 160, the other shoots the same arrow 215...I'm gonna pick the faster one. How could you not?
I try my best to shoot instinctive so the faster the arrow, the less my sub conscience has to figure out the variables.
I think of bows kinda like trucks...I could get a little 4x4 Toyota pickup that gets 25 mpg. Or I could stick with my old dodge with a 12v cummins that also gets 25 mpg...but it will haul 4 rick of stove wood or a gooseneck with 4 four of those toyoatas on it and still get the same 25mpg.
I guess my point is that I like to have as much "power" as I can get for what I've got in it.
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I want it quiet and having enough speed that creates enough momentum to ensure a quick kill on whatever I'm shooting at.
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The example I like to use is my 55 pound 1960 Kodiak...at my 30 inch draw length I have chronographed that bow, with 9 gpp arrows, at 185 fps...that was with a 16 strand Dacron string...I have since swapped out that string for a ten strand padded loop HMPE string...that bow is now both quieter and faster than it was and just as easy to shoot...a pretty simple performance boost for 20 bucks
DDave
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The flatter shooting bow will enable your mind to make less of an adjustment when shooting different yardages if your truly shooting instictive. I like a bow that has cast when shooting a decent weight arrow. My A&H has great cast in my opinion.
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Like was said by DD for 20 bucks why not go for a little more speed? OH and both my grizzly and my PCH picked up 8+ fps each and they are way quieter.
So yeh both for me.
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If I was looking for speed, I wouldn't be in love with Hill bows. I like a quiet bow that will send a relatively heavy arrow with authority, and Hill styles do that very well. I don't have a clue as to what arrow speed I am shooting, but it is enough to take game when I do my part, and I won't be shooting past about 20 yards at game, anyway.
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I like an accurate bow that's quiet after I tune it. I like good arrow speed, but too much makes my gaps too big under 40 yards. A fast design vs a slow design means I can shoot the same arrow the same speed at a lower draw weight though.
So in the end I like a fast bow that I slow down with a big ol' arrow :biglaugh:
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I'm not to concerned with how fast a bow is, as long as it's super quite and I can shoot it well. Nothings quitter than a self bow, but with that said, I generally hunt with laminated long bows that are almost as quite, yet have a little more performance and speed than a self bow. Like a Howard Hill long bow.Not super fast, but fast enough with plenty of performance. :archer2:
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Originally posted by centaur:
If I was looking for speed, I wouldn't be in love with Hill bows. I like a quiet bow that will send a relatively heavy arrow with authority, and Hill styles do that very well. I don't have a clue as to what arrow speed I am shooting, but it is enough to take game when I do my part, and I won't be shooting past about 20 yards at game, anyway.
Exactly my perspective. Quiet, but fast enough to kill game effectively. I haven't a clue what my bows chrono at either. Just my 2c.
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First off, 187 and 200 fps out of a stickbow with hunting weight arrows are both very fast. Faster than any I have. I shoot 58-60 pounds with a Hill style or a moderate R/D and they wont touch those speeds, at least not with my 650 grain wood arrows.
I shoot a mid speed bow better. Usually around 170-175 works pretty good for me. I'm a close range hunter anyway, so trajectory doesn't make to much difference to me.
I know folks that shoot short, fast bows really well. For me though, 64-68" at medium speeds works best. Critters don't seem to mind either. :)
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Originally posted by Todd Cook:
First off, 187 and 200 fps out of a stickbow with hunting weight arrows are both very fast. Faster than any I have. I shoot 58-60 pounds with a Hill style or a moderate R/D and they wont touch those speeds, at least not with my 650 grain wood arrows.
I shoot a mid speed bow better. Usually around 170-175 works pretty good for me. I'm a close range hunter anyway, so trajectory doesn't make to much difference to me.
I know folks that shoot short, fast bows really well. For me though, 64-68" at medium speeds works best. Critters don't seem to mind either. :)
Shows you what I know. I just grabbed 187 fps and 200 fps as an example. Since I don't have a clue what my bows shoot for speed, I don't know what an average fps is. Thanks for all your insights everyone.
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accuracy is the most important for me.
I have bows the shoot from the mid 150s to 180 with hunting weight arrows and as long as I can hit where I want. it don't matter!
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I should clarify myself as well about the fps statements in my previous post....I don't own nor have I ever shot a stick bow that shot 215 fps...especially at my draw length and the heavy arrow weight that I prefer. I have never even shot any of my bows through a chronograph. I just know I like my fastest (by my eyes and instincts) and quietest (to my ears) bows the best.
I was only contemplating the "if's" of bows.
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To me speed is a measure of efficiency. If I can shoot a 450 grain arrow from bow "A" with a 45# draw weight and get 190 fps, but bow "B" only posts 175 fps with the same specs, then I prefer to shoot the faster bow simply because it equates to better penetration of a hunting arrow. However, it has been my limited experience that there is not that much difference in modern bows. Given traditional arrow weights and the limited hunting distances, even 20 fps does not amount to a lot of trajectory difference. Recurves that really chronograph at 200 fps and above are not the norm.
As I have said before, the chronograph is not your friend. It makes you long for new bows and arrows to replace the ones that have been working well for you all along.
Now if you want a new bow just because it looks nice or is of a different style or maker, well that is a valid reason for a new bow!
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for me the most important is forgiveness. Im not really a good shot and I like having as much forgiveness as I can get when im hunting.
Second is shootability. it has to feel right, act right, and shoot where im looking.
Third is quiet.
4th is durability.
Speed is so far down the list I dont ever think about it.
I have never shot a trad bow thru a chronograph nor will I ever. Speed is just not important to me.
I shoot heavy arrows as well for all the above reasons as well.
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A chronograph will break your heart...if you let it.
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Overall how a bow handle's is tops for me. But that doesn't mean they have to be dogs either. Setting up a bow I want to optimize performance also.
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1. How the handle/grip fits my hand.
2. Hand Shock.
3. Cast.
4. Quite.
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For my hunting, speed equates to arrow weight and penetration. With deer hunting to 40 yards a 10-20 FPS difference seems to have had little relevance to my success over the years. I am more concerned with the bows stability, ergonomics, and accuracy being comparable with my shooting style.
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I haven't put a traditional bow or for that matter a wheel bow thru a crony for over 20 years. Even it may have only been a couple times. Guess that answers the question how much I care about speed.
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Dennis,
I still remember when the fast flight string came on the scene and was the gotta have. That extra 7 fps was incredible but it wasn't a free lunch and the extra fps came with some noise issues that we had to contend with. A few years went by and most buyers reluctantly made the change over to allowing the use of FF on their bows. Some designs were just the ticket, better chrono speeds and less noise issues.
Fast forward to today, we now have foam cores and carbon, skinny ff strings and highly stressed limbs that offer incredible performance. Even though some of the faster designs can be critical of a bad release these "speed enhancements" have allowed many of us the opportunity to shoot lighter weight bows with more control and in the end, better accuracy while still maintaining good kinetic energy.
I have a chrono in my shop and run every bow that comes through my door through it, just for fun. I've found very little difference among most bows. Yes, you get some barn burners and some slugs but most are within 5-6 fps of each other if the variables are the same for each bow and arrow combo.
After years and years of tinkering I've found it more important to find the bow that fits the individual. Most often this can be attained through a grip that fits just right. If you can get a bow to shoot naturally where you are looking early on and acquire good consistent flight, there's really no reason to look any farther. With good form, a solid release and a well tuned bow, accuracy and speed will follow.
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Slow bow means you have to PULL more weight to do the same work.Fast bow means you pull less weight to do the same work.So its up to the owner, do you want to do it the HARD way or the EASY way.
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I have a shorter draw than some, so i like to have a faster bow to make up for it. I got a Bigfoot SS that's 57 lbs at 27.5". It will shoot the same weight arrow at my draw length within a few fps of my friends bow that's 64 lbs at 30" at his draw length. Not only is it fast but I've been shooting tighter groups with this bow than I ever have with any of my other bows. And it is as quiet or quieter than my other bows. I want a fast bow because it gives me the performance of a heavier weight bow.
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Fast is good whether shooting wheelies or stickbows but at what price? All other things being equal give me the fastest bow you got but all else is never the same.
I like quiet and smooth and fast enough. But what is fast enough? Well, for a guy like me who is only pulling 43-47 lbs I like to be somewhere around 175 fps with a 10gr per pound of draw weight arrow which virtually eliminates straight limbed Hill style bows that I love to shoot.
Each bow has it's own unique characteristics which is why I love them so much. I would have an array of probably 50-60 stickbows hanging up for me to use at any particular whim but my wife just won't allow that.
Doug
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Never having been a wheelie bow shooter, speed has never been an overriding factor in my bow selection. On the few times I have used a chrono I have found that my bows shoot consistently slower than many of my friends' bows. No problem, but I quit using a chrono!
Hill bows are not known as race horses, but they sure are effective. My belief, and this is only my personal belief, is that speed should never trump quiet. Slow bows are deadly when you put the shot in the right place. Consequently, it is quietness and ability to shoot accurately that is paramount. Others may disagree, which is fine.
One observation I made when I used to shoot at several ranges frequented by compound shooters was that speed, above all else, seemed to drive their setup. Some of these bows sounded like .22 rifles when they were shot.
I don't know if noise is a major player here, but I have heard a whole lot more compound shooters talk of sticking an animal but not recovering it than I have trad guys saying the same.
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I'm not to concerned with how fast a bow is, as long as it's super quite and I can shoot it well.
That's how I feel.
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I dont know why we think we cant have fast, forgiving, and quiet all in one bow. I dont see any reason that isnt possible. In fact I know a couple of bowyers that do it everyday. The best bow has a blend of the three, it may not be the fastest or the quietest, but it has a balance that makes it fun to shoot.
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A well designed bow is an efficient bow. Look at the Bigfoot bows. Some of the fastest bows around, and all that stored energy goes into the arrow, so no extra noise, and no handshock. With slower designs, you almost have to shoot a heavy arrow just to quiet it down and get the handshock manageable.
I think 3Arrows put it best, do you want to do it the easy way, or the hard way?
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Accuracy and quietness is my goal. Hit where I look and not alert the animal due to noise. If the animal does not move due to noise then the arrow hits where I aim. Hopefully my aim is true....
I'm not arguing with anyone. Just my preference. Never worried about speed personally.
Hand shock is also a BIG consideration for me.
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At the chosen distances I shoot at game(15yds. and less) I have always opted for silence and the ability to cast a heavy arrow with authority. This is why my chosen hunting bows are Hill styles. Two Tracks Echo and N.M. Whisper. Not all that fast but certainly lethal. When I release an arrow, I have one objective in mind; a quickly dead deer.
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I personally believe that everyone wants both and that majority of the times we will sacrifice one for the other. If you could shoot a bow that shot 150fps and very little noise and a bow that shoots 185fps with very little noise, why wouldn't I want to shoot the faster of the two bows(these bows are the same poundage).
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Interesting that most of the members that are advocates for fast bow designs have a high member number. Seems as we age we learn the most important part of archery is ''consistence in accuracy''.
We now hear this word ''efficient'' being thrown around. Makes the design sound like it has everything an archer would want. But what dose it mean? Is it the mechanical aspect of a limb design to force an arrow w/ the least amount of energy lost? Again, another hot new catch phrase ''energy lost''. If all I did was shoot my bow thru a chrono, I too would be concerned how these catch phrase word's effect me but I like killing game w/ a bow and repeatable accuracy is bottom line!
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Hill bows, IMHO....were designed to shoot a HEAVY hunting arrow very quiet....pair that up with good accuracy, and you have a perfect HUNTING bow setup. IF you can gain "speed" without sacrificing the previous characteristics that I mentioned, then go for it ! If TARGET shooting is your only goal, then by all means shoot the fastest setup that you can shoot ACCURATELY !
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For me a bow has to be comfortable to shoot, speed would be secondary but I like to have it. I enjoy shooting my Hill Half Breed which is very slow compared to my other bows but I can't deny that, hand shock and all, it shoots where I look most of the time. It's 62 lbs at my 30" draw and I use a 640 grain shaft out of it so its dead quiet. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with it. I have a 62lb Northern Mist on order that I expect will be the same.
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Originally posted by overbo:
Interesting that most of the members that are advocates for fast bow designs have a high member number. Seems as we age we learn the most important part of archery is ''consistence in accuracy''.
I've been here a while and haven't shot a compound since 1982. But I still don't recall ever wishing one of my recurves was 15 fps slower.
I'm hunting with 12 gpp arrows. Whatever I can do to get them moving a little quicker is worth doing . . . provided it doesn't risk the bow or increase noise. I'm not fanaical about it (use B-50 on even my modern recurves) but I CERTAINLY appreciate a design that has speed and is otherwise a good hunting design.
I like hunting with older designs from the 1960's +/- and my favorite bows happen to also be my fastest. I do better with the all important first shot when I have less trajectory to dope out.
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I like fast bows, in fact I own some of the fastest, BUT I don't like fast arrows...my mind is trained for mid 170's in the fps department. So, yeah, I like fast bows, heavy arrows too :)
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As noted by others, I shoot heavy arrows, usually hardwood. I have never chronographed a bow, so have no idea how fast my bows shoot. For me, speed really isn't important. I decide which bow I want to hunt with-recurve, longbow, R/D, selfbow, composite bow, from the 50's, modern materials-and shoot it until I am very comfortable with it, practicing in the woods, shooting through openings, between trees, so that I have a pretty good idea how and where it shoots. Most of my shots are 15 yards or less, so quiet is much more important to me than speed.
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I like a well tuned bow that shoots my arrows where I naturally aim - quietly. How fast the arrow gets there is relative to how heavy an arrow I want to shoot. For a difference of usually no more than 1-10 fps speed is just not a big deciding factor to me.
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I have a high member number question :bigsmyl:
I'm working up in weight and have ordered another JD Berry Taipan. The bow will be virtually identical to the one I now own, but will be 60#@ 28". Seven pounds heavier than my current set up.
Is there a known formula for calculating how many FPS will increase per pound?
~CB
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My arrows weigh 9-10 gpp for each of my bows. One dz hunting arrows are 12 gpp. If my bows shoot these arrows between 185-192 fps....I'm very happy.
That's enough speed for me with the arrow wts I shoot plus my bows are quiet with this setup.
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Originally posted by centaur:
If I was looking for speed, I wouldn't be in love with Hill bows. I like a quiet bow that will send a relatively heavy arrow with authority, and Hill styles do that very well. I don't have a clue as to what arrow speed I am shooting, but it is enough to take game when I do my part, and I won't be shooting past about 20 yards at game, anyway.
x2 and my Hill lets me enjoy the mystical flight of the arrow a touch longer!
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Sorry Stumpkiller but you are putting words to my response. Never said anything about wanting a slower bow. If you shoot well w/ an extreme design, then you are in a minority and I applaud you for that. Everyone has their own standards to adhere to. I for one have difficulties shooting these extreme designs w/ great repeatable accuracy. I also have been to enough shoots to see a lot of shooters have difficulties w/ what ever design. From my experience a good number of those shooters are new to trad. archery. Couple a newbie w/ an extreme design and you see a trad. archer that's struggling to accomplish repeatable accuracy a lot of times. It's been my observation.
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Originally posted by KeganM:
A well designed bow is an efficient bow. Look at the Bigfoot bows. Some of the fastest bows around, and all that stored energy goes into the arrow, so no extra noise, and no handshock. With slower designs, you almost have to shoot a heavy arrow just to quiet it down and get the handshock manageable.
I think 3Arrows put it best, do you want to do it the easy way, or the hard way?
If I wanted to do it the easy way, I wouldn't be using a stick bow in the first place!! JMO and isn't it great we have a preferred niche for everyone? What slower designs are noisy?
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Chromebuck, a pound of draw weight translates into 1-2 fps increased arrow speed, all other things being equal.
Take the top bows in terms of hunter preference, not necessarily design, and run them through a chronograph shooting the same gpp, and you'll see that they're within about 15 fps of each others. (Review Black Schwartz's tests, for example.) Some say that's not much of a difference. It's actually a huge difference. The equivalent of 7-8 pounds of draw weight.
It's not just the newbies who prefer speed. I'm getting a little long in the tooth. Been shooting sticks for more than 50 years. Used to shoot bows in the low-to-mid-60s. Now, by shooting fast bows, I can get the same arrow speed with a bow in the high 50s. As has already been pointed out, faster bows enable one to drop down in bow weight without losing performance. What's not to like about that.
Of course, it's a myth, or maybe just sour grapes, to say that that faster bows are noisier than slower bows or imply they're less accurate. Lots of things contribute to making a bow noisy, and speed can be one of them, but there are lots of others things that have equal or greater impact -- string material, arrow weight, tiller, bow design, etc. And accuracy, of course, rests with the shooter, not the bow. :)
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I think a slower trad bow fits more with your brain as a ballistic computer. Faster modern bows are way faster than anything "natural", and you might not even see the arrow. With a slower bow, you see the arrow, and your brain reprograms your ballistic computer to this arc. After a bit, it's just like throwing a ball.
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all other things being equal, I prefer a little "arch" in my archery. There is just something about a heavy arrows trajectory that I enjoy. Super fast bows or ultralight arrows don't interest me
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The idea of a super fast bow is the ability to maintain or even drop poundage and shoot a heavy arrow just as fast as most bows shoot a lighter arrow. At least that is how I look at it. None of my bows are noisy and they are all considered to be fast.The idea is to have a bow that is an all around hunting bow. means it has to be effiecient, quiet and smooth to draw. Those are actually compatible and harmonious and are really what most of us want.
I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want a slow bow or an ugly wife or a donkey instead of a Lincoln. A slow bow is simply put, an inefficient bow, utilizing the energy of the poundage you are pulling.
When we hear that a bow is slow but casts a heavy arrow well we are hearing this. The bow is more efficient because the arrow weight is absorbing the normally lost energy.
A more efficient bow is always more efficient. It will cast that same heavy arrow faster and further than the inefficient bow. However as they are both imparting the same poundage force or attempting to. As the arrow gets heavier to absorbing all of the energy of the 50 lbs the speeds will get closer.
There is never a point though where the less efficient bow will outperform or perform as well as the more efficient bow.
Hope this helps.
God bless, Steve
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I propose it's a moot argument.
There ain't enough difference between the fastest and the slowest for me to worry about.