Well, was trying to kill this deer this past year. Wanted him out of the herd. Problem solved this afternoon. Teeth were very sharp. I think he was only a few years old.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2nrhtp2.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/6nrsjo.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/15q6v60.jpg)
Darn nice deer tom but can tell he's well peaked antler growth ...what's the verdict?
wonder what got him?
What part of Kentucky you from, I got some good friends in Mayfield.
Seems like a nice buck. Why did u want him removed?
QuoteOriginally posted by Keith Zimmerman:
Seems like a nice buck. Why did u want him removed?
x2?
...non symmetrical?
QuoteOriginally posted by Keith Zimmerman:
Seems like a nice buck. Why did u want him removed?
X3
I was wondering the same.
It's obvious! The base of his right main beam is spindly.
:D
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
It's obvious! The base of his right main beam is spindly.
:D
Ya about 8" spindly
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
It's obvious! The base of his right main beam is spindly.
:D
Good stuff right there!
To narrow.......LOL!
Just call when you need someone to put their tag on a scrub buck like that :)
"Problem solved" man I wish I had your problems here!
Makes no sense to me.............its a deer....kill him because of his genetics???
I am with you Stickbow!!! Horns are pretty but I cant boil them enough to get them tender to eat.I would of culled him only for meat!
'Tis nature's way. There is no retirement plan or welfare for wild animals.
Could have been anything from tuberculosis to excessive parasite load to a wound from a hunter.
A pity he was lost; but there is no easy exit for wild animals.
Well because there is a 1/1 ratio on this farm and there are much better options to spread their seed.
That's awesome!
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Well because there is a 1/1 ratio on this farm and there are quit a much better options to spread their seed.
Fair enough. I've always been interested in what the effects of a 1/1 ratio would be on the rut. I would think stiffer competition would make for a more intense rut. I've never been fortunate enough to experience a 1/1 ratio though.
So wouldnt it be beneficial if there were a couple more bucks to get the big boys out from hiding more to compete and become vulnerable?
Nice find. Most people wont ever see a 1:1 without ALOT of work and some loud Bangs. Especially on free range animals
QuoteOriginally posted by CDorton:
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Well because there is a 1/1 ratio on this farm and there are quit a much better options to spread their seed.
Fair enough. I've always been interested in what the effects of a 1/1 ratio would be on the rut. I would think stiffer competition would make for a more intense rut. I've never been fortunate enough to experience a 1/1 ratio though. [/b]
Yes, pre-rut is fantastic but then they shut down. Once the does are all bred the bucks do leave for a week or so. But having them stay for 11 months out of the year is a better alternative in my eyes. Our season begins the first weekend in Sept and I can hunt them for two and a half months before they leave and then again in December and January.
QuoteOriginally posted by Keith Zimmerman:
So wouldn't it be beneficial if there were a couple more bucks to get the big boys out from hiding more to compete and become vulnerable?
No, we have a 1/1 ratio and the management plan is to have the right bucks. I would have killed that deer either of the past two years if I would have had a crack at him. In turn I choose to pass on the 120" two year old with good mass and long tines. If that deer I found dead stays, he breds and also will run off one or several much better young deer. We have great numbers and half the deer I see while hunting are bucks for three months out of our hunting season.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/o03yf8.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/m8jhw5.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/n5o8yp.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/ea4dq0.jpg)
Very cool!
:thumbsup:
Can't argue with those results...lol
Even the worms have to eat.
It's just a hard look at the natural cycle of life that befalls some.
Would it have been seen any differently if it had been "just a doe"?...not in my eyes.
Just one person's opinion.
God bless,Mudd
While it's said you can't eat the antlers, I've found that you can drink to them for a lifetime of deer seasons. ;) :D
I do want to say...You will never hear me tell anyone they shouldn't kill any deer they choose. They are all trophy's. Look at my tag line. This is just the way I choose to hunt.
Did you age the teeth? Was he 3 years old?
I didn't Bob, but he isn't any older than three. With his sharp teeth and a small 7.5" skull from eye socket to nose I really think he was two. Our mature bucks are in the 8" range.
From the picture, I was thinking 3 max by the body but he could be 2 in a great area. You've obviously got a pretty special area there. My old school buddy now lives in northern KY and hunts both southern Ohio and KY and he constantly sends my trail cam pics similar you yours. Good luck!
Man come November your torturing me TOM! Awesome pics
Thanks Bob. 80% of Kentucky isn't this way as most is very heavily rifle hunted. We are lucky to have a few farms surrounding that are passing on younger bucks also which is what it takes. Farm will be all in soybeans this year so looking forward to that. Last two years it was solid corn that wasn't picked until the end of season. That helps to keep them alive as well, but makes it very tough on a hunter as they stay in there and don't like coming out.
Tom, I applaud you for your management skills and I am right there with you that one was a great management buck. I am heavily involved in deer management on my hunting properties as well. While we don't strive for 1:1 ratio we follow QDM restrictions and pass on any deer under 3.5 years old, doe or buck. Proper management relies on very strong self control to pass on young deer with great potential, but as I am sure you know the rewards of letting them walk produce some truly monster deer. Keep up the good work! SS
QuoteOriginally posted by silent sniper:
Tom, I applaud you for your management skills and I am right there with you that one was a great management buck. I am heavily involved in deer management on my hunting properties as well. While we don't strive for 1:1 ratio we follow QDM restrictions and pass on any deer under 3.5 years old, doe or buck. Proper management relies on very strong self control to pass on young deer with great potential, but as I am sure you know the rewards of letting them walk produce some truly monster deer. Keep up the good work! SS
Well said, and I agree. The only reason I questioned you wanting him gone was because to me, he had potential, and I don't think I could drop the string on him. But if you have bucks with more potential that's great! I hunt public so I don't have a situation like that.
CDorton, I understand. Our typical KY buck herd tends to have short tines and that being the case I have come to like deer with looooong tines. Grass is always greener right?
However culling bucks due to antler genes is hard for me to swallow. I learned from raising bird dogs that half or more of the passed on genes come from the female. So I am not looney about killing what I think are inferior bucks. But if one walks to close I will take a crack at him simply for those reasons even though we only get one buck tag.
Tom, please send your "cull" bucks past my treestand lol. At 2 1/2 they should be prime table fare. :readit: :bigsmyl:
oh way cool deer kentuckyTJ
That's true Charlie. It is a shame the meat was consumed by the coyotes and buzzards and not me that's for sure.
Love seeing your pic Tom! Your results speak for themselves. Good luck this year, the soybeans should help with sightings :thumbsup:
I know more than a few people who would pay to have problems like that!
"We hunt because we enjoy it. How you get that enjoyment is for you to decide."
Great tag line and that pretty much sums it up. In my home state of MI there's a lot of debate about point restrictions and Quality Deer Management properties. I'm sure TJ works awful hard year round to earn his 'success' that to many seems envious. I learned years ago by taking thirty hours of golf instruction from a PGA teaching pro that I could never be a zero handicap golfer, because I didn't have the time to practice all that I needed to, even though I 'knew how to shape a shot', whether it needed to be a draw or fade.
Congratulations on success as you've defined it TJ and sharing your successes and knowledge with the rest of us. :campfire:
Thanks Ray, means a lot to me coming from a TG legend.
I think if I would have started this thread like this:
Found this deer dead today, I was trying to kill him this year.
It wouldn't have ruffled as many feathers.
Game management and antler management should be thought of as two different things because they are. Our government should in my opinion manage our wildlife for their numbers because it has been proven we the public can not control ourselves.
But I don't think management from our government should ever cross the line into antler management. Antler management should be left to the hunter/land owner.
The best thing our state ever did was implement the one buck rule. Our buck herd did wonders at year two and three after that law went into affect.
"Thanks Ray, means a lot to me coming from a TG legend."
Yikes, T.J. the kind words are appreciated, but 'legends' are for the likes of Mr. Lamb and Mr. LaClair or the Wensel's. I'm still wet behind the ears. :D
No way brother, you take your two daughters with you to the woods and that makes you a TG legend in my book.
Two Legends in this photo standing on the far left, Ron LaClair and John Grumley (this is from the TBM article I did on Shrewhaven Lodge):
(//%5Burl=http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/johngrumleyphoto_zps54a1a601.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/johngrumleyphoto_zps54a1a601.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Now if you're talking these two little ladies-they're incredible (straight A students in school, great athletic accomplishments and dandy archers to boot)-and they'd make any Dad feel legendary.
Mary on mid-December 2013 hunt in the Double Bull blind on the home property:
(//%5Burl=http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/Maryinblind_zps81c05ead.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/Maryinblind_zps81c05ead.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Morgan, late December 2013 hunt on grandparents fruit farm:
(//%5Burl=http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/PC280088_zps17c37584.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/PC280088_zps17c37584.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
The girls modeling their new quivers from Ron LaClair/Art Vincent and neck knives from G. Fred Asbell.
(//%5Burl=http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/PC250058_zps54fccebf.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/PC250058_zps54fccebf.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
Be it one buck rule or antler regulations, both have the goal of attempting to choke down excessive yearling buck harvests. If you liberalize buck regulations, you beget liberal buck harvests and vice versa.
The problem of deer hunters being "buck only" hunters started prior to the Great Depression and has still continued to this day for many. There are still hunters who refuse to shoot a doe.
The following is from John Ozoga, retired MDNR deer specialist who probably is the most respected whitetail researcher in the world...
John Ozoga: "For obvious reasons, few hunted deer populations today exhibit the detailed male social organization as I outline here. Instead, in most areas the annual harvest of bucks is so excessive that yearling bucks must prematurely assume herd sire roles and do most of the breeding. In the absence of mature, dominant bucks – – the social governors – – the rut becomes a chaotic scramble among young bucks to breed any doe, thus eliminating any selectivity for adaptive traits."
We've tried the voluntary restraint program for 4 generations. If one thinks of it, we used to have very lax driving and drunk driving laws in the past too. Those don't work well either. Not on crowded roads anyways. Nor do voluntary bag limits work well. They don't for fish or birds either. One landowner's harvest actions impact all around him.
In a sense, what one or two camps in any area do can have the same impact as one person smoking in a room or one kid peeing in the wading pool. One camp of 10 guys that shoot the very first whatever, be it buck or doe, will impact others.
One thing that always stands out is the number of sportsmen who still think the natural resources are there to serve them instead of them serving the natural resources. As JFK would say "ask not what the deer herd can do for you, ask what you can do for the deer herd". The era of viewing the natural resources/sport hunting and fishing as a consumer are mostly behind us. In the modern era, we'll have to be the stewards of the game we wish to hunt otherwise they will vanish, this time for good.
Well Tom, They gotta eat too I guess.
Your hard work and dedication show through your posts and success. I always enjoy the big ole Does you kill every year :thumbsup:
Hard to imagine a place with a 1:1 ratio. Would think to get it at that level the numbers would have to be very low.
tracker12, we shoot a lot of does. There are two tags on our initial license then after that the zone I am in we can get as many $15 bonus tags as we would like. Each bonus tag gives you two antlerless deer. We kill a lot of does each year. I shot 4 does this year and had other buddies in to take some more. I have a friend that has a farm that is overrun with deer and he kills around 25-30 does each year. I have killed a buck and quit a few does at his place and it is amazing. Every time you sit in a stand you will see deer and most times you will see 8-15.
Our numbers remain very high. In place of all those does taking up space there are young bucks.
Tom,
Are you doing trail camera census of your property? It seems that I've read (in something like Deer and Deer Hunting or the QDMA Magazine) that if you have trail camera's out on various trails of your property that you'll capture 95% (or thereabouts) of the home population of deer on the property over a 2-4 week period.
Just curious if you're doing something like that or just taking notes while you scout and hunt.
Ray
I do Ray, I am a "Modern Traditionalist"
:thumbsup: :D
Great thread TJ. If you don't mind me asking, When I see deer of the caliber you've posted and then spoke of 1 to 1 ratios I wonder how many acre's are you dealing with?
If you take out lesser bucks, you don't have a tag for the big one, but I like your thinking, Tom.
We had a wide 7x7 with short tines that I told Bro I was taking out if I got the chance. Had him at 20 yds one eve, but was dark enough I couldn't see much but the white of his rack. I passed ...
QuoteOriginally posted by SheltonCreeker:
Great thread TJ. If you don't mind me asking, When I see deer of the caliber you've posted and then spoke of 1 to 1 ratios I wonder how many acre's are you dealing with?
Sorry for the delay David. Didn't see this was back up. This deer was on 314 acres.
No problem at all Tom. Those are some bruisers you posted in trail cams. I appreciate what your trying to do. Good luck.