I have been reading a ton on efoc and that stuff.
here is the question that im wondering because im loving the flight of my new set up especially in the wind. had 30-40 mph winds other day and I would shoot in the middle of the gusts. loved the results.
but in my research alot of people say the higher foc will kick more in a cross wind. Why? in not seeing that. Im seeing the opposite.
Reason I ask is after reading about efoc in high wind I did testing with broadheads.
arrow #1 3555 stuffed with nylon rope fletched with 5.5 highback, 100 grain brass insert, 100 grain adapter, 145 grain magnus I 2 blade (1.5 cut). total weight 740 grains 20% foc.
Arrow #2 3555 2 brass inserts totaling 190 grains, 100 grain adapter, same head, 4" highback feathers. total weight 695 grains 30% foc.
dry feather testing 25 yards: high cross winds the 20 foc arrows groups open and all over. the 30% foc arrow tight groups in the right spot no more noticeable kick in flight than other arrow.
wet feather testing 25 yards: high cross winds. I soaked each of the arrows feathers and matted them down with my hands as flat as I could. the 20% foc flew everywhere even missing a 3d target, seemed like the broad head was driving and the wind was taking over. the 30% foc flew exactly like it did with dry feathers, tight group right where I was looking.
I will do more playing with the 30% arrow but as of right now and the 2 weeks of shooting them side by side with my stuffed 20% arrows, I can honestly say the 30% arrows are blowing the doors off my 20% every time.
Another interesting thing.
I bought a layered foam block target to bare shaft test these shafts. after only about 40 shots in the middle of that target I shot my 30% arrow thru my target and poking out the backside.
I thought id try something. I shot 10 of the 30% arrows one at a time and removing each. 6 went thru the target sticking out of the back. I shot 10 of my old 20% arrows (witch are 740 grains compared to the 30%ers at 695) and not one of them poked out the back of the target. Interesting???
i have never yet shot an animal with these arrows yet. but so far im pretty convinced 30% foc flies better in all conditions.
I was on a caribou hunt a few years ago and took a shot at a bull in the open but i was behind a big rock. arrow was a 2117 shaft with aluminum inset and aluminum adaptor and magnus 125 grain head. as soon as that arrow past the rock the high winds in the open hit that arrow and turned that arrow sideways to the point it hit the bull so sideways that the feather and back of the shaft slapped the bulls shoulder and the head was out in front of the bull. i mean that arrow hit almost sideways. that was a standard arrow. i personally think after the testing i have been doing that had i been shooting these 30% foc arrow that bull would be on my wall.
Generally, you're confirming what Ashby found. More FOC leads to better arrow flight and better penetration. However, you're not exactly comparing apples to apples.
There's a big difference in the fletching size, which could account for a lot of the differences in arrow flight. If you want to test for one variable, need to keep everything else constant. In this case, you do need to add rope to one to get the weights about the same. However, could remove some of it to get the weights exact. Then fletch both arrows the same and redo your test. I think the arrow flight results will be less dramatic when both arrows carry the same size/shape fletching.
Your question confuses me. Why do you think a higher foc would fly more sideways? With your set-up I thought you just proved this is NOT the case. :confused:
Another confusing thing is that you had more than one variable at a time. Maybe the 30% flew better because of less fletching rather than the issue of foc??
I could be reading your post and set-up all wrong. Seems to me you may want to change just one variable at a time. 2 arrows, same wt, 4" fletch, varied foc. Then 2 arrows, same wt, larger fletch, varied foc. etc etc etc.
I am REALLY curious as to how your informal study will turn out. Hope you are recording it on your podcast site.
Dan
sorry about the question being confusing... not quite 100% right now. got my fingers crushed in a pile of logs and pretty medicated...lol. after I posted and re-read it I wish I could go back and word it better.
the reason I asked is because I have been reading here and other places about high foc arrows not flying well in the wind.
my new arrows with 30% foc are flying awesome and beating out my old arrow set up in every condition.
it made me think "how could an arrow with high foc but all other factors of the arrow being the same fly worse in the wind?" Im not saying they do. Heck, my new arrows are proving the opposite. but lot of people saying they high foc wont fly as well.
my question is why would or could that be?
Im not able to do any more testing or shooting for a while as my fingers are in pretty bad shape on my draw hand. probably be 6 weeks before I can shoot again.
even when I can shoot again I probably wont test to much more as im loving the way my new 30% foc arrows are flying. but thought id share the things I noticed when I was comparing my new to my old.
in my opinion (with my 2 versions of arrows) the high foc arrow flew better in every scenario. It made me wonder why a lot of people think it would be the opposite in windy conditions.
sorry for all the confusion in the first post. like I said drugs have got me a little out of it right now.
so really to help clarify, if im reading right, you performed a side by side test of your old heavy arrows to a 'new lighter weight' arrow with higher f.o.c. to see how they compared...seems to me you have a winner. i did a similar test only everything was the same; other than foc and point weight...turned out the are more accurate in a given circumstance but trajectory is what changed. for me im working on a set of 30" 2117 that im hoping will be hfoc or efoc...determing how they fly...im thinking 300-400gr up front including point weight out of a 53#@27 draw (actual is 55@28 but i have a shorter draw length some where between 26~27"). i enjoyed reading this though...makes one think of how you could improve it even more ;) :thumbsup:
I agree with Orion on the fletch; a bigger factor in a cross wind than the FOC
Does anyone know of one of these EFOC tests done with a shooting machine?
Where the arrows are impacting and flight characteristics are 2 very different things. THe arrows might be on target but kicking all the way there. I use higher FOC arrows but really don't like how the rear end of the arrow is easily manipulated by crosswinds. I suppose in hunting conditions if the winds are that strong then you must questions ones ethics in regards to shooting game at longer distances. (any arrow set up for that matter).
QuoteOriginally posted by Manitoba Stickflinger:
I suppose in hunting conditions if the winds are that strong then you must questions ones ethics in regards to shooting game at longer distances. (any arrow set up for that matter).
Totally agree.
If you want the rear to kick less, make the fletch lower and longer. If you're in really high winds, go with two fletch as above. Though, I would question shooting into too strong a wind as well. Most of my arrows seem generally unaffected, but I'm not going to chance it.
LB: My point is that your arrows are not the same except for FOC. You have a lot less fletch on your high FOC arrow. That's less area for the wind to work on, so it will be much less affected by a crosswind than will the other arrow with the larger fletch. In short, your test is one more of fletch size than FOC in a crosswind.
Last week we had a warm windy day. I took out some three fletched 4", aluminums with 200 grain points and some cedars with hard twisting 5.5" feathers with 145 grain points. The cedars flew much better across the wind than the other. Normally, those aluminums group tighter for me, but not that day.
Interesting the doubters totally ignore that the arrows were shot with the feathers wet and matted down which would negate any effect fletching size had to do with wind drift. In fact is shows that the efoc arrows are significantly more accurate in the wind. But closed minds have closed eyes.
I am pretty sure we all read that feathers were taken out of the picture. I have 30% carbon arrows, the unfletched arrows have less going on in a big wind than the fletched ones. In wind that is less than a gale, the fletched arrows are more forgiving of me. If I were going moose hunting those would be my arrows. I agree that there is a point where trying to make shot work with a severe cross wind becomes unethical. The last deer that I put my single bevel Hill through must have moved with the wind some on its thirty yard journey, but it flew straight in the 15 mph winds. As the poster stated, more tests will be made. There are always variables to work out.
With the Feathers wet and matted down you would still have more weight on the rear of the arrows with the longer fletching..water weight also.
Good point, but could arrow flight be that sensitive with otherwise good flying shafts?
I don't know for sure..but the rope could stiffen the other shafts a little bit affecting arrow flight..I think Carbons seem a little more sensitive than other materials. I know when I bare shaft tune Carbons it doesn't take much to make them too stiff or too weak.
Even matted down, a longer feather has more to catch the wind, and a matted down arrow doesn't stay matted down when it's shot. I don't dispute that the higher FOC arrow shot better. Ashby proved that long ago. I said that in my first post. What I'm suggesting is that the difference would have been less with identical fletching on each arrow.
I didn't even get into the weight difference, but the lower FOC arrow is also 45 grains heavier. Given that both arrows are the same length, does this mean that one is better tuned to the bow than the other and gets better flight?
Given the differences in overall arrow weight and feather size, it simply isn't accurate to say that higher FOC ONLY caused the better arrow flight. Other things were also in operation.
Again sorry about the wording, was heavily medicated when made original post.
I just read a lot of different opinions of foc, wind, flight, penatration, etc.
I have been working hard last few weeks on improving my arrows and trying to not have to stuff them with rope anymore (been doing that for 10 years). Once I figured out how to get the weight I was happy with and not having to stuff rope I started testing to see how they comparednto my old arrows.
The results are what I put in the original post. I found them very interesting. And I love everything about my new arrow set up. Evrytime I do a comparison the new arrows win.
I understand the arrows are different. But I was not trying to test to prove something. But rather make a new arrow that fits my wants better. The results really opened my eyes so thought I would share.
Again I apologize for how my wording was all over, just wasn't quite right in the head.
But to sum up my 2 arrow comparison from my experience over last couple weeks of side by side shooting them is that the new arrows fly the same in normal conditions. The new arrows take the cake in penetration. The new arrows fly the same in rain with no wind, but blow old arrow away in rain and wind. The new arrows win in all windy conditions!
Based on this so far, I don't see myself going back to the way my old arrow was as the new one has big benifts for my style and the conditions I hunt in.
Sounds good to me. Glad you found something that works even better for you. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Even matted down, a longer feather has more to catch the wind, and a matted down arrow doesn't stay matted down when it's shot. I don't dispute that the higher FOC arrow shot better. Ashby proved that long ago. I said that in my first post. What I'm suggesting is that the difference would have been less with identical fletching on each arrow.
I didn't even get into the weight difference, but the lower FOC arrow is also 45 grains heavier. Given that both arrows are the same length, does this mean that one is better tuned to the bow than the other and gets better flight?
Given the differences in overall arrow weight and feather size, it simply isn't accurate to say that higher FOC ONLY caused the better arrow flight. Other things were also in operation.
I agree with everything you are saying and I know my 2 arrows are not identical.
Just to clairify the heavier arrow was 27 and 1/2 inches and bareshafe tuned and flew perfect. My new ones are cut down to 26 and 1/2 inches plus the double insert adds to the spine. These are also bare shaft tuned and flying perfect.
I'm no arrow expert and believe everything you are saying without any dispute. But wanted to point out both arrows were tuned to best of my ability.
Sounds like your good to go..nothing an Arrow that flies like it should.
QuoteOriginally posted by LB_hntr:
.....after I posted and re-read it I wish I could go back and word it better......
You can. Just click on the paper and pencil icon at the top of your post and you can edit it any way you want.
Cool post. :thumbsup:
LB. Don't sweat it. Sometimes we get into whizzing matches over nothing. It's been a long winter. Hard to get out of the house and not much to talk about. It's all good.
Jerry (Orion),
Every single thing you say has been a great benifit to me and to everyone that reads this. the knowledge on this forum and the people on it that are willing to offer thier insite and experience is a huge asset to everyone that is on here. You are at the top of that list with all of your great posts and the time you take to help anyone anytime you can.
Everyone that contributes to any thread with good info like we have seen on this thread is a major asset to us all. From this thread I have learn things that i did not think of, know, or understand. Many people reading this im sure, feel the same way.
I think talk about arrow weight, foc, efoc, standard arrows, etc is good becasue all sides give good honest genuine opinions. Those honest opinions are created by personal experiences. all of this helps anyone looking for new arrows, getting started with arrows, or wanting to understand arrows. Its like a "ford vs chevy" debate. as both sides point out the good, bad, etc everyone that is folloing along learns alot about both and can better make a decison for themselves based on pros and cons they read.
I have never been a FOC guy but always been a heavy arrow guy. I liked the quite bow, hard hitting, stable flight, and forgiveness of a heavy arrow. I started in 94 with cedars and made them as heavy as i could and loved them. Then we had our daughter in 2002 and were living in a rented house without a garage. my wife did not wnat me making cedars with the stains and dips in the house with a new baby so i switched to aluminums. Shot standard 2117s for 6 months and hated them. nosiey, light, loud bow, and the wind problem on the caribou hunt that same year (mentioned in first post). So i stuffed them with rope. walla! Perfect arrow! 740 grains, stable, flew great, hit hard, quite bow...all good.
Then in 2009 decided to try carbon. istantly decide i had to stuff them with rope and get the weight up, then added brass inserts etc, 740 grains. walla! perfect carbon arrow! been using them ever since.
Now i want to change to a non- rope stuffed arrow so decided to try double brass inserts. STarted testing bareshaft and cut to tune and got great flight. played with feather sizes from 5.5 to 2.75 liked a 4" high back best when combining all testing between dry, wet, wind, etc. walla! new perfect arrow!
so for 12 years i basically shot teh same arrow configuration. stuffed carbons normal foc, stuffed aluminum normal foc.
Now with the testing of the new arrows, the results i thought, are worth mentioning.
I never expected this much more productive of an arrow for my style and shooting. But the new arrows have proved it be.
Hopefully people that read this and are looking for an arrow like mine or wondering about my experince with EFOC will help them.
Anyone that is not interested in a EFOC arrow, i totally get it. I was not interested ever until a couple weeks ago. My other arrows always performed very well for me. Thats why i stayed with the same type of set up for all these years. I always raved about my arrows i used. I loved them. But now I like the new EFOC arrows better.
There is no right or wrong way to go with weight, foc, feathers, etc. And even though im raving about my new set up its not feild proven to me on game animals yet. my other arrows have taken alot of game with excellent results. my gut feeling is these will as well and probably better.
the key is to shoot tuned arrows that you have confidence in. as long as that happens the rest is matter of preference. But when it comes to that preference, I think these types of experiments, threads, debates, and chats are good for everyone that is interested.
People will take away what they want and throw out the rest. Its these kinds of threads here and other places that helped explain most of this stuff im learning. Even though I thought i knew it all....lol
Thank you to everyone posting and all the insite and info. Its greatly appreciated!
I'd say the arrows that are stuffed with rope are most likely all over the place without any wind. Its darn tough to get those flying the same in perfect conditions.
Your comparison to an aluminum arrow with a 125 grain point which probably weighed only 500 grains is definitely going to be different than a 700 grain arrow regardless of FOC....
Hey.... i got no problem if you like the EFOC arrows. That's cool.... but do that same test using the same fletching size and ditch the rope filled arrows and you may not see quite as much difference..... apples, oranges , and soda crackers.... just saying...
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
I'd say the arrows that are stuffed with rope are most likely all over the place without any wind. Its darn tough to get those flying the same in perfect conditions.
Your comparison to an aluminum arrow with a 125 grain point which probably weighed only 500 grains is definitely going to be different than a 700 grain arrow regardless of FOC....
Hey.... i got no problem if you like the EFOC arrows. That's cool.... but do that same test using the same fletching size and ditch the rope filled arrows and you may not see quite as much difference..... apples, oranges , and soda crackers.... just saying...
the alums were stuffed with poly rope and weighed 740. I shot them for 7 years that way. the carbons were stuffed with nylon rope packed tight and weighed 740. shot those for 5 years. killed many a critter and they always flew great. I shot those arrows 4 days a week for all those years. loved them!!! Actually won quite a few awards at local 3d shoots with those rope stuffed arrows. So for me they flew amazing. Just time for a change and im really digging the no rope, high foc, set up alot. Excited to try it out on real game and see how they do.
you are correct my testing was not apples to apples. It was not intended to be. It was actually not a test but a comparison between my old and new arrows. But there is interesting things to see and think about.
LB, what type of rope did you stuff in the carbons? Hardware store type material? Thank you, Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by BuckeyeGuy:
LB, what type of rope did you stuff in the carbons? Hardware store type material? Thank you, Mike
1/4 in braided nylon rope. bought at home depot, or any hardware store. if you want a lighter weight rope use braided poly rope. the nylon will add about 100-125 grains depending on arrow length and the ploy about half that.
With any rope it is very important that you pack it full. it will compress. you can do this 2 ways. #1: pack it full then put knock on and smash the insert end repeatedly against a board to get it to compress and then add more so the shaft is stuffed full. #2 pack it full as you can and then shoot each arrow in to a target 5-10 times to compress it and then add more to top it off.
Its just like adding a weight tube but has other benefits. the rope gets rid of the hollow sound of the shaft and makes them quite like a wood shaft. the rope wont rattle, and the rope is a lot cheaper and doesn't add any stiffness to the shaft. I would make sure to shoot a couple bare shafts and make sure they still fly good and don't need to be trimmed for spine.
Well i gotta say... that sounds pretty impressive. I've used all kinds of stuff inside shafts and never got the same exact weight or decent arrow flight....but i never tried packing rope in like you described.
I even tried putting that green slime tire fluid in some shafts one time.... Boy was that a bloody mess.... :biglaugh:
Ya gotta love those heavy shafts. They'll definitely get-er-done!
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Well i gotta say... that sounds pretty impressive. I've used all kinds of stuff inside shafts and never got the same exact weight or decent arrow flight....but i never tried packing rope in like you described.
I even tried putting that green slime tire fluid in some shafts one time.... Boy was that a bloody mess.... :biglaugh:
Ya gotta love those heavy shafts. They'll definitely get-er-done!
I cant imagine how messy the tire slime was..lol
I too tried all kinds of stuff from sand, rubber hose, to cutting pipe insulation foam into foam strips and stuffing them in shafts.
The key to the rope is it has to be packed tight. I have some practice arrows arrows I have been shooting for years and when I pull the knock off the rope is still packed full right to the base of the knock after all those thousands of shots.
the one thing I do miss about the stuffed rope shafts is how quite they made the shafts to handle. not hollow sounding but solid like a wood shaft sounds.