I had a great tuning experience today with a short modern longbow...it perfectly bare shafted...found its sweet spot and made it whisper quiet and had zero hand shock...it would be an absolute dream from a climber this spring and fall. With that being said it lacked a little in accuracy when compared to my 64" longbow. At 20 yards I'd say its plenty accurate to hunt but I'd about cut it off there and my groups were a little more open than I'm used to. I only draw 27" and the bow is rated for that length...it doesn't stack and I feel no finger pinch. With those things aside, why would the longer bow be more accurate? Or what do you think makes the bow you settled on accurate for you?
I think the key phrase is "more forgiving" not more accurate.
If you bolted each into a Hooter Shooter, most likely they'll shoot exactly the same every time.
The difference is in the shooter, not the bow.
Deflex, limb length, center shot, grip, all sorts of things can make one bow more forgiving than another. I would generalize that shorter limbed bows are inherently harder to shoot consistently for many reasons. The question then becomes, how much stability are you willing to sacrifice to shoot a short bow?
It isn't the bow it's the arrow and you. The bow doesn't do anymore than propel the arrow.
Grouse
I'm using forgiveness and accuracy interchangeably here then...assume all bows are shot from a human and not machine...is there something beyond finger pinch and stacking that makes a shorter bow inherently less accurate to a human, if those things were removed from the cycle? Or do some people find short bows equally or more accurate?
The problem is you can't remove those things from the cycle/equation. They exist because the bow is shorter. The stack makes the bow feel stiffer/rougher, the finger pinch makes it more difficult to get off the string cleanly. Shorter limbs are also more susceptible to various types of torquing with both the bow hand and drawing hand, because the string angle is always more acute up/down or side to side vis-a-vis a longer bow. Certain design and construction features can lessen the effects, of course, like a forward grip handle, extreme deflex/reflex limbs and limb materials that provide cross sectional stability, etc.
ME :goldtooth:
Stability in the limbs is what I think gives a bow the most accuracy. If your limbs aren't tillered perfectly and balanced to each other the bow will never be as accurate or stable as a bow that has those things.
QuoteOriginally posted by drewsbow:
ME :goldtooth:
X2
With some bows, if I throw a twang into the string on release, the limbs go out time, torque is put into the grip and it all carries through until the arrow leaves the string. What makes my new bow forgiving and accurate for me is because James understood how I shoot and built a bow that functions perfectly with my normal shot, and if I mess up a bit the smooth long limbs and the reverse grip corrects things before the arrow leaves the string.
MONEY,just keep throwing money at the problem,It will get better
I really think that switching from one bow to another, and making comparisons is tough.
I have found that if you work with a single bow for a while; you will adjust to it's subtle differences.
Confidence........
With bows that are a bit sensitive to release errors, the good ol cant pinch tab helps me a lot.
Me
I can only speak to what makes it inaccurate...that would be my bow arm :( just can't hold it rock solid like I used to :( :(
Grip, very stable well timed limbs and a well tuned arrow. I also shoot longer bows better when shooting longer than my normal hunting distance.
QuoteOriginally posted by drewsbow:
ME :goldtooth:
That's what makes my bow inaccurate ;)
My hand - eye coordination
All my bows are infinitely more accurate than me.
The longer ones tend to be more understanding of my imperfections though.
I'll second what James Kerr said. Stable limbs are more forgiving than "light whippy" limbs (When everything else is equal, the added mass will tend to make them a bit slower too though).
I don't believe longer bows are more forgiving TO ME. Lately I seem to shoot 56" recurves better than anything else (and I'm 6' tall with a 28" draw).
Its interesting to note that (everything else being equal) longer limbs will tend to be more "whippy" than shorter ones. Shorter limbs of the same draw weight will also tend to shoot faster because they have less mass.
My quest for the "magic bow" has taught me that a good fitting grip is also important for consistency and practicing with just one bow is also very helpful. It's just not as much fun. ;) - John
having a target I really want to hit
QuoteOriginally posted by bartcanoe:
QuoteOriginally posted by drewsbow:
ME :goldtooth:
That's what makes my bow inaccurate ;) [/b]
Me also.
I think a magical combination of unicorn mane, mermaid scales, and fairy dust really lock in my accuracy....
Sorry couldn't resist...
No really, proper tuning is a must on any bow.
Pointing the arrow in the right direction!
Focus
I think any bow, untillered / tillered, short / long, fat / skinny, red, black or green, is inherently more accurate than I can ever make use of.
It is me, and only me, that makes it inaccurate.
Some features of any given bow lend themselves to helping me be more or less accurate, but the problem is me, not the bow.
ChuckC
I think most of it is mental , if you think there is a problem with your setup it is easy to get yourself to believe it . Kinda like getting an arrow to shoot well out of your bow , you must believe that you have the rite arrow to begin with . It can be like hypochondria , I have had that happen to me many years ago . So relax and don't over think the beast , it will come together .
As the old master said " It is better to become the arrow than to be the target . "
"Or what do you think makes the bow you settled on accurate for you?"
There's no way of denying that properly tuned arrows are first and foremost in achieving any degree of consistent accuracy with any bow.
me! brain games, if I'm off mentally so is my bow and visa-versa.
Quote
"what do you think makes the bow you settled on accurate for you?"Yourself and the relationship you have with that bow.
Kris
Matched arrows and practice, practice, practice.
Confidence in your equipment and yourself
I think this is a good question for Kirk from Big Foot. But my 2 cents, all well designed bows are accurate. Our fingers on the string limit their shooting abilities. Getting back to what makes my bow accurate: I shoot a 62" recurve (Howatt Hunter} and I think it is the smoothness and string angle. I believe those two factors compensate for my imperfections. I have a 58" and 60" recurve and once I became comfortable shooting the Hunter I am consistantly more accurate with it.
two things,. finger pinch , even if you do not feel it there is less with the longer bow , usually at least.
verticle stability is next. even if the bows are both identical in vertical stability the string angle will allow a less constistant release with the shorter bow by tweaking one of the limbs a little harder than the other. At least on occasion. This will cause a bit of bad flight and cause the arrow to not fly as accurately which shots up especially on longer shots.
As was priorly stated they would both probably be as accurate over a Hooter shooter with a mechanical release aid.
God bless, Steve
A longer bow is inherently more accurate than a short bow for the same reason that a tightrope walker uses a long pole for balance on a high wire. More stability, less prone to torque. That could be what you are experiencing.
Practice.
Practice.
Practice.
Practice.
and having it tuned right.
Accuracy is in the operator. You may operate some bows better than others.
Crooked stick, if accuracy is in the operator then why may one operate some bows better than others? I think that is what Ulysseys wants to know.
I don't think its all about the archer, design and build play a part also.
Here is a list of items mentioned already in order posted,
reflex riser, limb length, center shot, grip, arrow tune, archer, limb stability, forward riser, confidence, bow arm, practice.
I agree with Sixby, length and stability, and add grip style because if it is not easily repeatable for you you affect accuracy with torque and limb timing effects.
It aint the Bow, Its the Indian......
I agree with the previous posts on accuracy, mostly. In terms of accuracy as it relates to a bow's forgiveness, longer bows don't translate shooter error to the target as noticeably as shorter bows do. So, any errors the archer makes, minor or major, will not affect the impact of the arrow on the target as much with a longer bow as it will a shorter bow.
What makes my bow more accurate is based upon who is holding it..... unfortuantely, that is usually someone else :)
Nice responses guys....but it isn't just about the archer, as katman said, there are design attributes too. Granted, I'm not having a problem with the shorter bow, I'm loving it, but I do recognize that it takes me much more concentration to be accurate with it. I feel like despite being designed to be short nothing really accounts for length in forgiveness and accuracy.
Love this thread, I learned a lot... Laws of physics regarding the bow plus the shooter appear to be the answer. Now I just have to find the right shooter for my bow!
I think I could shoot a broomstick well if it had a Brackenbury or Abbott grip on it.
With me, it's all about the grip.
Of the bows ive hunted with which has been many i have learned this...for me.
one pc longbows seem to be more accurate for me the longer they are, takedowns that are short the ones with the most mass wt in the riser seem best.I like to shoot one pc longbows so the perfect bow for me would be a long one with a very heavy riser.I plan on building one for deer season this year . A mild r/d 66 long with a diamond wood riser. We`ll see.RC
Practice
Tiller, timing, limb alignment to each other, horizontal stability of the limb, vertical stability of the limb, cut of sight window, If a three piece then squareness and degree of accuracy in the over all build. Weight of limbs in relationship to each other. fit of grip to the shooter. The shooter does not make a bow more or less accurate. The Bowyer does that. The shooter utilizes the inherent accuracy of each individual to the degree of ability he or she has. Another thing.
Just as all shooters are not equal, Neither are all bows equal. I have many customers ask me why my bows are more accurate than other bows. Here is what I tell them. They are only more accurate than other bows that are not built and designed as well. We may shoot one bow more accurately than another simply because we are used to shooting it and have adjusted to it, however that does not mean that another bow is not inherently more accurate if we took the time to get adjusted to it.
During the time I have built bows I have had customers say this is the most awesome bow I have ever shot.
I have also had others sell it the next day.
Then I have had others say I cannot shoot this bow real well and I got all upset but two weeks later call me up and say after giving it some time it is now my favorite bow. What happened?
Did the bow get suddenly better? Nottttttttttt
The shooter adjusted to shooting the bow and got used to the grip. Now he loves it.
When a customer sells a bow in one day he is not willing to give it a chance. The man that does just may find the best horse in the stable.
God bless, Steve
Nice post Steve, exactly my wonderings/point. My 64" brand X longbow IS more accurate than my 56" longbow brand Y due to it's build and specs, despite the 56"er being built to be shorter and fit my specs, as the 64" one was as well. You can't really say all bows are inherently equally accurate if shot from a hooter shooter because until I can get a hooter shooter in a tree it's an irrelevant point. My wonderings in this post is that there are a lot of fantastic short designs coming out that are specifically designed to be short but is there a loss in accuracy despite the design? For me it seems so.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ulysseys:
For me it seems so.
I would speculate this is the true answer to this question. I know people who will fight both sides to the death.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned physical weight. Most bows made today can be had with your favorite grip,most are tillered,timed properly.
The length affects finger pinch and your ability to effect a clean release,but physical weight inherent in a longer bow usually makes a longer bow easier to shoot accurately.
I just went to cabelas and exchanged my Bear Archery Super Kodiak for a SuperMag 48.. The Kodiak was a 60# draw, and I found it was a little too much for me to be able to shoot as much as I wanted to in order to zero in on my form (back was so sore after shooting 150 arrows that I had to take a break for 3-4 days).
my supermag 48 arrives in the mail today - 50# draw. I have no rational explanation for WHY i feel i will like the shorter bow (48#, forward grip centerline arrow rest) - except that my guy tells me this will be a better fit, so I'm listening to my gut (sometimes referred to the "balls" brain, or primal instinct)
if anyone has any real world experience shooting the supermag 48 I'd love to hear how it shot for you
Grip and practice.
For me, if the riser has nice lines, pretty wood and was expensive, It will always be accurate. If not, I keep telling myself it's is so. ;) well at least till the next one comes along lol.
" ME "!!!! :thumbsup:
look, I got this friend who has been shooting all his life he has taught me a lot he buys bows off X-bay that are 20-30 yrs old for 100-150 dollars.he can kick my but all day long.( I shoot a Shaffer silvertip) assuming things are tuned.form maybe the most important.on a IBO course of 30 targets I shoot a 190-200 he will shoot a 240 plus.On the other hand I have owned my share of custom bows when I got my silver tip I saw my score jump on average 10-13-points.I really cant say*** its that one thing***. the mental aspect plays a major roll as well
No matter the bow, without proper repeatable form (not necessarily the same thing)and right thinking, accuracy will be difficult to achieve and near impossible to maintain.
Conversely, give the best made bow in the world with perfectly tuned arrows to an archer that has a variable anchor, torques the grip, moves the draw hand in and out from the face (from shot to shot), and any number of other process flaws, and the bow "won't shoot where he looks".
I do think some bows are an aid to the archer like some have written above. Some grips help set the bow hand correctly for each shot or end. Other things such as mass weight, length, and design features I know nothing about, may moderate imperfections in the archer's process.
I believe a very competent archer can be accurate with any bow.
Good practice, and shooting a lot, becoming familiar with the bow.
I had this question over 30 years ago. I'm mostly a stump shooter(field marks), and hunter. When I had a shooting position where I could shoot with perfect form I was able to shoot my various bows with comparable accuracy. The aspect that determines my most accurate bow is the design that enables me to be out of form, or change the speed of the shot sequence with the least amount of impact on accuracy and conscious adjustment to achieve it. There was a definite difference between my bows under these circumstances. I guess this is what they call "forgiving".
I used to shoot two inch groups with my 68" 45# longbow from about 15 meters. The bow cost less than 200€ and it was very intermediate bow.
Now with a 500+€ bow I'm not even nearly as accurate.
Main thing is to shoot enough with ONE bow and not change the bow every other day :D
My current go-to bow is much heavier, shorter, faster and the grip is much chunkier. I like it very much but my body still remembers the old one too clearly.
QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
Of the bows ive hunted with which has been many i have learned this...for me.
one pc longbows seem to be more accurate for me the longer they are, takedowns that are short the ones with the most mass wt in the riser seem best.I like to shoot one pc longbows so the perfect bow for me would be a long one with a very heavy riser.I plan on building one for deer season this year . A mild r/d 66 long with a diamond wood riser. We`ll see.RC
So true...This is why top Olympic target shooters shoot long heavy bows. I know we are mostly hunters but the question was about accuracy.
I'm with Graps and Hummer3T.
Archery has a lot to do with your mental attitude....
Grab that and think to yourself, I'm the best there ever was, and shootin.
Me. . I also make it very un accurate at times.
ChuckC
A solid bow arm and never stop pulling.
SL
The bowyer!
The right arrow and practice.
A ''balance'' of all things mentioned above. It's a give and take w/ bow designs. One can make a bow extremely fast but they give something up in design else where. I do believe a bow design can make an archer better. It's happened to me. I have bows I shoot well out to 20 or so yards and another I call my 40 yrd bow.
I got 6 of em and aint a one accurate.
Okay. I'll admit to not reading all the responses, but I'm going to put my 2 cents in and then start reading.
Assuming my setup is tuned, the number one for me is consistent form. Number two would be a smooth, consistent release.
I just went around a 3D course with 6 people in our group. 2 women and 4 men. Some were shooting ILF bows ( top notch setups ), one a custom 3 piece longbow and I was shooting a one piece Hill style bow. Our scores were all very close and we all shot good and bad targets. I think the people that win are just having a good day and are practiced shooters that know their setups.
Finding the rt arrow and then executing the proper form.
The shooter.