Which is it?
I have a pyramidal flatbow, which must be shot overhand. I cannot do this consistantly...
I then bought something with an arrow shelf. It is a reflex-deflex longbow. I am better with this... But not great.
Should I try a Howard Hill American longbow or a recurve?
Howard Hill wrote that he was not a good enough shot to shoot a recurve whilst hunting. I have seen Byron Fergusson say something similar (youtube). Is this just a salesman talking or is it real?
My main aim is to hunt, eventually. However, with a traditional style bow, not a compound. What do you suggest? Thank you for your advice.
Alex
For me a recurve is much easier to shoot consitantly than a straight longbow. I've tried R/D longbows, hybrids, and straight longbows. I still shoot recurves the best. :archer2: Bodnik in Germany makes some excellent recurves.
Thanks Echo62,
I don't mind shipping from the US and since it is the home of Howard Hill, I guessed that it would be the best place to buy.
You are correct about Bodnik. Infact they build a Byron Ferguson designed Z-Bow. I am considering that.
I just don't understand why both Mr Ferguson and Mr Hill used American Flat bows whilst everyone else uses recurves...or something similar
I think it's a learning curve. Early in ones archery career, you are learning the basics....form, etc. I think a recurve with a deeply indexed pistol grip is easier to start out with. And because most guys shoot so well with them, they never change. That is totally and completely fine. I have many recurves, and hunt with them often.
But for me....I have migrated to an almost full sized longbow...slightly reflexed...with a slightly indexed grip (it's a 62" NM Baraga, 60# @ 28", with the RW grip). This is the most forgiving design FOR ME. And it took over 40 years to figure that out :bigsmyl:
Shoot lots of bows, but I suggest not committing to one singular style until you are certain your style/skill level has reached it's natural level.
Like Roger I have found a bit longer mild r/d longbow works best. I prefer a 64" - 66". I hunt probably half the time on the ground and split the other half between a ground blind and a treestand.I do not shoot a real fast bow very well.RC
Thank you both of you. There is much to think about.
It looks like I am going to need deep pockets :)
My first bow, the flat bow, is 72" long and I became frustrated with not being able to shoot well off-hand.
The next bow with a shelf is much more fancy, but this goes against the reason I started. I want the simplest design, which will get the job done. Speed is not really the issue for me, stability is...
There is a holmgard type bow I was also thinking of, but the Howard Hill style is cheaper and I cannot stop thinking about what he said about shooting recurves...
Anyway, thank you for your thoughts..
Alex
The recurves Hill shot were nothing like what we have today. The heavy, sculpted risers sit in the hand better and the fast, low shock limbs make it easy to hold through the shot.
The big thing is just learning to shoot though. Get comfortable and consistent. A good shot can be reasonably accurate with any bow though, regardless of design. "It's not the bow, it's the Indian" as they used to say.
Howard Hill shot a lot of animals on the move.
And I think a recurve with the Big risers get in the way of the shot...
This is a highly debated topic, but you may be interested in a poll that was posted here not too long ago:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=090477#000000
I agree with the majority in that poll that a recurve is more forgiving. I believe that the grip, mass weight and closer to center shelf cut are all contributors. I love the graceful lines of longbows of all shapes, but I shoot recurves significantly better. I also prefer the, generally speaking, slightly shorter length for hunting, especially if treestand hunting. Neither bow is a cure for bad form, however my arrows are not as far off target when I make a mistake with the curve vs. the longbow.
I'm envious of guys that shoot longbows well. I won't stop trying to get better with either style, but when hunting, nine times out of ten, I reach for the Bear SK.
I wonder what it would be like to be able to shoot moving game like Hill. If the Howard Hill approach is what you like, go for it. The whole thing, shooting style and equipment. I used to think, as some, that starting with a recurve is better, not anymore. If your goal is to emulate Hill, do it and do it right, start with the John Schulz Hitting em like Howard Hill film, in four parts on you tube. Take Hill's advice, don't over bow, never shoot a bow that you can not easily handle.
To answer your post, is a longbow more forgiving as Hill said? If you shoot them the way Hill did, yes they are.
I don't think either a longbow or a recurve are inherently better than the other. There are many intangibles involved in finding a bow that suits a given individual that go beyond just the physics and mechanical properties. It matters not what others prefer or shoot better. Simply find what suits you and just "fits" your style of shooting. There is no wrong answer, just preferences and choices.
I shoot a recurve and a longbow pretty well the same.
One of the reasons that I prefer a longbow is that it shortens my inconveniently long draw length (mostly because of the position of the hand/wrist on a longbow as compared to a recurve).
I also started shooting a longbow before a recurve (so, like others above have mentioned - it can be just a matter of personal preference).
QuoteOriginally posted by Echo62:
Bodnik in Germany makes some excellent recurves.
Sorry, but you're wrong!
Henry Bodnik does n o t build anything. He just sells things other people are making.
QuoteOriginally posted by tg2nd:
QuoteOriginally posted by Echo62:
Bodnik in Germany makes some excellent recurves.
Sorry, but you're wrong!
Henry Bodnik does n o t build anything. He just sells things other people are making. [/b]
It depends if you mean the man or the company. I believe that his head bow making man is Christoph Unger and he works on site. He also sells bows other people have made for him, in the old East Block countries.
I see you are from the same Bundesland as the company. Maybe you are better informed than me.
Cheers
Alex
I meant the company. Mr. Unger is making some good quality bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Echo62:
I meant the company.
As far as I am aware, the company makes bows (in Rossach, Bavaria) and also have bows made for them in Hungary(I think its that country)
I don't know if he can make a bow or not. He can shoot them pretty well though.
Alex
QuoteOriginally posted by EHK:
This is a highly debated topic, but you may be interested in a poll that was posted here not too long ago:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=090477#000000
I'm envious of guys that shoot longbows well. I won't stop trying to get better with either style, but when hunting, nine times out of ten, I reach for the Bear SK.
Thank you for the link. 60:40 is an interesting split.
So I just went back to my flatbow and shot so much better...
I guess its alot of it is in the brain and getting that right. I did have to really concentrate on my grip. Get that wrong and real handshock..
Still I would like to try a tacke down Howard Hill bow. Any suggestsions on who are the best makers?
Thank you, everyone who replied. It has gotten me thinking
Cheers
ALex
Its hard to beat Craig at HH Archery.
Personal observations.
In my first five years of hunting with a Hill style longbow I killed no deer.
In my first five years of hunting with a one-piece recurve I killed two deer.
In my first five years of hunting from a treestand (with a recurve) I killed four deer.
Obviously the tree-stand is more forgiving than either the recurve or longbow. :archer:
Truly, the choice of recurve vs. longbow means less now with recurve handled reflex/deflex longbows that perform well in "standard human" strength draws. A modern recurve of 45# does what a self bow of 75# used to; likely more. And by "modern" I just mean glass laminate. My favorite hunting recurves are early to mid 1960's designs.
As for forgiving in hunting conditions - when you are cold, tired, dressed in bulky clothes and shooting from an awkward position the bow you are familiar with at a draw you can handle will be the more forgiving.
QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
Its hard to beat Craig at HH Archery.
I totally agree with this statement. If you like HH style bows and you want to shoot one well, then there's only one way to learn.......shoot one! I started out with a recurve, but once I shot a longbow for a week or two, I was shooting the longbow just as well. American semi longbows are inherently accurate, have excellent cast, and are forgiving of arrow spine.( wooden arrows)I suggest you call and speak to Craig at HHA, he can answer your questions and set you up with a bow tailored to you. I own 12 bows, three of them are Hill's and I shoot the hill's 90% of the time.Excellent bows! Good shooting to you.
God bless :archer2:
If you try to shoot a Hill style bow like a recurve, it will fight with you. If you shoot properly, it will reward you, and there will be no going back.
You will get a lot of opinions, and that's what they are, opinions... including mine.
Whichever works best for YOU will be the answer. Howard Hill killed a lot of game with the longbow, and Fred Bear killed a lot of game with the recurve, just depends on what you prefer.
If you like the Hill style look and want a very good shooting long bow.... Keep your eye out for the new Big Foot "Stealth" coming out this Spring.
Kirk
I prefer a Sasquatch 60" hybrid long bow with a custom grip for hunting on the ground,in a stand, or out of a ground blind.
Kirkll,
Will this bow be take down? I need a takedown for ease of transport, but I want the old American flatbow style.
Thanks
Alex
Most forgiving bow in the trad world is an ILF rig with a plunger with long limbs.
Forgiving - you'll want a bow you shoot well (accurately) under a variety of conditions. It should draw easily when you are cold and shoot an arrow with excellent arrow flight even when you fail to do things properly. You DO NOT want a finicky bow.
I will NOT elude to whether this is a recurve, longbow, flatbow, selfbow or other, as many are doing, you'll have to find that out for yourself.
The process is lifelong. That's the fun of it!
Kris
QuoteOriginally posted by alex321:
Kirkll,
Will this bow be take down? I need a takedown for ease of transport, but I want the old American flatbow style.
Thanks
Alex
Yes....This new design will have a 2 piece option.
Kirk
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by alex321:
Kirkll,
Will this bow be take down? I need a takedown for ease of transport, but I want the old American flatbow style.
Thanks
Alex
Yes....This new design will have a 2 piece option.
Kirk [/b]
I looked at your sight and I see you are a real craftsman. I shall have to be patient and see what you bring out. I am very interested. Thank you for your information.
Alex
I'm working on a new two piece connection right now. I'm not real fond of most of the two piece connections except for the one Jim Neeves at Centaur does..... but i don't like the bolts on that one either. So i'm coming up with something different.
Sorry about getting side tracked on this thread guys...
I think my choice for the most practical forgiving hunting bow is a 60" hybrid long bow. They are small enough to easily shoot from a ground blind.... Nice tree stand size too... But the way they slide through the brush so easily while ground hunting is the best part. I also like a bow i can push/pull to string in the feild. So if i want to pack in somewhere i could take the bow down and stuff it in my pack easily.
The ones i build will accommodate shorter draw length guys and still get great performance, but also I can build the the same 60" length to draw to 32" plus with no finger pinch what so ever....
The Sasquatch TD long bow is my go-to hunting bow.
It's the Indian, not the bow.
Simple but true.
Look at some of the really prolific hunters on here; Terry, Guru, Shedrock, RC, Pat in Texas, Stickflinger, widowdoublelung, etc. and then look at all the game they've harvested with an ARRAY of different bows. Many times switching up bows themselves year to year if not week to week.
Give those guys a PVC bow and I'd bet money they'd still kill things.
Point being the type of bow is so far down the list of attributes to hunt successfully that its essentially a non factor, albeit a fun wintertime discussion.
Mike has it right, you'll just be chasing your tail to get the right answer on this one. My preference is to work on my shooting form and stop worrying about the bow. Do your end right and the bow will follow. The most forgiving bow in the world won't be worth a dime if you are not forgiving in your shot performance.
The guy asked for opinions on the "most forgiving bow style" for hunting. Nothing about shooting form, or how to be a successful hunter... You guys are getting off track here. Learning to shoot and hunt effectively is a whole different topic.
Kirk
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
The guy asked for opinions on the "most forgiving bow style" for hunting. Nothing about shooting form, or how to be a successful hunter... You guys are getting off track here. Learning to shoot and hunt effectively is a whole different topic.
Kirk
And you're selling bows :bigsmyl:
The best style of hunting bow is one that is well tuned, and that one is intimately familiar with :goldtooth:
ILF
Okay, since this seems to be an opinion thread, I'll add mine. I've had and shot more bows than I can even keep track of anymore of pretty much every style available, except the kind with wheels on the ends ;) . Therefore, I feel qualified to offer some advice.
For me, the limb design or even that of the riser, make very little difference in terms of forgiveness. What matters for me is how the grip fits my hand. I can shoot almost any bow well...sometimes. The ones that fit my hand correctly, I shoot well every time! The two bows I find most forgiving are of quite different designs, but the grip of each fits my hand perfectly. I can pick up either my Kanati, which is a one piece R/D longbow, or my Orion, which is a three piece static limb recurve, and shoot equally well with either. In fact, I alternated weekends with those two this deer season. It so happened that a doe stopped in front of my when I had the Orion in hand, so I'm making some jerky out of her today. Had I had the Kanati, the outcome would undoubtedly have been the same.
I had a Northern Mist Shelton, which is a fine Hill style bow, but the grip was too small for me...an odd thing since I have short fingers. I could shoot it well at times, but not consistently. A Hill style bow requires a different grip than either of my other bows. Howard Hill described it as like picking up a suitcase. The depth of the grip from belly to back needs to be big enough to force you to grip it the same way each time. My Shelton was too shallow in that area to do so. I really liked the bow as it was smooth and quiet and accurate when I did my part. For hunting, though, I want a bow that I can simply pick up and shoot well without having to consider how I'm holding onto it. I couldn't do that with the Shelton, so I traded it.
I've finally come to the conclusion that the two bows I have listed will do everything I want to do in terms of bow hunting, so I'm done trading...I hope. :dunno:
Not trying to sell anything here, but how one shoots any particular bow has much to do with that bow's forgiveness. When someone shares their opinion and includes the reasons for that opinion, those that do not have years of trial and error experience can benefit. It is worth learning from the experts, one never knows what can apply to them. Even if someone tries to emulate Hill and covers all of the Hill fundamentals, there will still be specific variations and not be violating any of the Hill fundamentals or principles. For one person a pistol grip is the way to get a forgiving shot, for another a straight grip is the only way to go. Without knowing the form of the thread starter, the best anyone can do is to share their experiences.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Not trying to sell anything here, but how one shoots any particular bow has much to do with that bow's forgiveness. When someone shares their opinion and includes the reasons for that opinion, those that do not have years of trial and error experience can benefit. It is worth learning from the experts, one never knows what can apply to them. Even if someone tries to emulate Hill and covers all of the Hill fundamentals, there will still be specific variations and not be violating any of the Hill fundamentals or principles. For one person a pistol grip is the way to get a forgiving shot, for another a straight grip is the only way to go. Without knowing the form of the thread starter, the best anyone can do is to share their experiences.
Amen! :thumbsup:
Not to be a smart aleck, but a compound or crossbow is the most forgiving.
In the traditional world, the one that fits you and your style will be the most consistent. That changes from person to person. For me, I find a R/D longbow to generally be the easiest to shoot. With that said, some recurves are better than some RD longbows and some Hill Style bows are better than some RD bows. There are just too many variables to narrow down what will always be the most forgiving even for just one shooter, more less all shooters.
While I shoot both recurves and longbows, my primary hunting bow has been a Hill style longbow for about 30 years, I started with a recurve about 15 years earlier. Shooting slowly and deliberately I can shoot both well, with the advantage in target accuracy over long shooting sessions going to the recurve. For quick, and moving shots at game I I have had much greater success with my longbow. At least for my particular shooting style, the longbow does seem to be more forgiving than the recurve under less than optimum shooting conditions.
If you have perfect teeth.....then a Hill style longbow is fine. Personally, I can't shoot them because I have fillings I want to keep- grin.
So I say recurve.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
The guy asked for opinions on the "most forgiving bow style" for hunting. Nothing about shooting form, or how to be a successful hunter... You guys are getting off track here. Learning to shoot and hunt effectively is a whole different topic.
Kirk
Well, if your form was perfect there'd be nothing to forgive. When hunting we twist around, hold the bow at various angles, get tired, get excited, overdraw, underdraw, have wardrobe malfunctions, etc. It's those things that a "forgiving" bow forgives.
Besides, a bow never killed a deer. It's the arrows! Use the bow that puts a heavy enough arrow carrying a very sharp broadhead where you want it - under hunting conditions. There is probably no single MOST forgiving bow style for all archers/bowhunters. We're all different in our tastes and abilities. :thumbsup:
Though I have seen rabbits that were bow killed/clubbed. :archer:
I really like a 62" hybrid longbow for all of my hunting except out of ground blinds and then I use a 52" Bear Kodiak Magnum. My favorites are my hybrids though. Easy to string, shoot, and carry.
It's been said many times by others, but a modern longbow can be made to handle close to a recurve - pistol grip, cut to center, speed - and its a little quieter.
For me a modern hybrid longbow is the most forgiving and is almost as short as a recurve (if your worried about maneuverability).
Guilty as charged guys... i do try and sell a few bows on this forum, and i pay my dues for the right to do so. So please don't be offended by this.
There are a lot of different style bows out there an archer can choose from, and some are more user friendly than others for folks, depending on their hunting style.
Some guys have no problems getting in the groove and shooting well with any bow. Others struggle with it more. A forgiving bow is one that fits your grip well, you can easily use in your blind or tree stand with plenty of clearance, and you get set up with a good draw weight you can handle comfortably....
There are plenty of different bow styles to choose from. But finding the right one that feels good to you is important and makes getting in the groove much easier. Kirk
Best hunting bow in my stable for me is my Big Foot Sasquatch 60", a true hybrid that is a real pleasure to shoot, accurate, quiet and easy to maneuver.
Looking forward to the 'Stealth' bow Kirk :bigsmyl: as well as the SS.
I would like to thank Kirkll for his advice. I am happy that he contributed. As an adult, i can decide the relative merits of someones comments taking into account his background. He never tried to hide that he is a bowyer, so I am fine with that.
I have decided on a Hill bow, it now remains for me to decide whether it is straight limbed, setback or with string follow. (I think I am using the correct terms?)
I am interested to see what kirkll will produce, aswell as what other bowyers offer.
Thanks
Alex
Alex321.
What town you live in.
I spent 2 1/2 years in Frankfurt.
You wont go wrong with HHA Bow.
Just a thought to add when you select your bow and when you compare bows, do so with bow styles at the same poundages to really feel how they sit in your hand and feel on the release. Accuracy comes with practice, but all to often people overbow with to heavy a poundage and it is very difficult to develop a good shooting form and quite often bad habits are the result. I prefer longbows and in the past 50 years of shooting and hunting, they just work for me. I am 60 now and I started with a recurve at 10 years of age. Through the years I have owned many different makes and poundages and I have found a need to adjust over the years. For me if a bow feels right in your hand, you will probably enjoy shooting it, and if you will put in the time and effort to make it an extension of you as you hunt, you will find a lot of satisfaction. There are lot of great bowyers out there (past and present) and it is a great feeling to carry a traditional bow while hunting. Pick one and give it honest effort, success and reward will come both in the backyard, 3D shoots, stump shooting and hunting in the field. In time learn to tie your own strings and build your own arrows. best of luck to you.