Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Iowabowhunter on February 10, 2014, 07:14:00 PM
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I'm just wondering if a shaft with higher FOC (14+) is more affected by crosswind?
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I have notice the wind affects it more but does not blow it off target as much as non FOC shafts.
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Originally posted by T Sunstone:
I have notice the wind affects it more but does not blow it off target as much as non FOC shafts.
Do you mean that the arrow has the tail more "down wind" in relation to the point in flight, but not as far from point of aim at impact?
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For what it's worth...have shot 30+% Ultra-EFOC bareshafts in quite windy conditions. The rear of the shaft would move wildly, yet the point would find the mark at 25 yards.
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Originally posted by Friend:
For what it's worth...have shot 30+% Ultra-EFOC bareshafts in quite windy conditions. The rear of the shaft would move wildly, yet the point would find the mark at 25 yards.
Indeed.
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Hmm. Well thats not good. Was thinking about some ultra small diameter shafts (Victory VAP's) but I would need to load up the front to get them heavy enough
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Isn't the point of high foc better all around performance? How would a tail wagging, backend side stepping arrow out penetrate a straight flying one???
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SHHH, don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain.
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Yep…they suck in cross winds. I use them for hunting as it's always close hunting in heavy cover, but, if I were to hunt in open country or take further shots in the open I'd be using a more evenly weighted arrow. The tail wag or drift is far too obvious to not affect penetration!
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for target shooting high foc is kinda cool in the wind ( until you get just plain too heavy). The foc makes it easier for the fletching to get blown around BUT the point stays closer to the intended line. Now in theory you can use much smaller fletch with high foc....so that may negate some of the fletch end moving over. When that arrow flies it's basically going downrange sideways and doing so causes it to drop a little fast...
That said...I don't want to shoot an arrow at game on a windy day and have my arrow traveling sideways....broadheads work best going pointy end first..lol..it's not an axe..lol
I'd rather dope the wind a bit and have my arrow flying straight into and through the game...
Heck just try it sometime.
Have some fun and experiment in the yard on a windy day.
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Originally posted by Iowabowhunter:
Hmm. Well thats not good. Was thinking about some ultra small diameter shafts (Victory VAP's) but I would need to load up the front to get them heavy enough
I think the GT Kinetics are longer out of the box, maybe you wouldn't have to front load them as much.
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The "sideways" example is exaggerated. If your arrows are flying "sideways" no set up is going to do well.
I'd rather hit the mark with an arrow that's slightly unstable than miss with a stable arrow.
How far are you guys shooting anyways?
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I really wasn't trying to exaggerate Mr. Lamb.
This summer my Wife and I went out shooting on a steady 30 mph wind day.
Just for fun..to see what would happen.
Took shots from 10 yds to about 23 or so.
Her arrows are spruce with 3-5" fletch and 125 grain points.
Mine were carbons with 4-5" fletch and 250 grain tips.
We shot in the cross wind.
Her arrows drifted from target more but flew much straighter.
My arrows were hitting closer to the mark, but were flying at about a 30-40˚ angle.
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I don't claim to understand it but the real high FOC arrows do show more angle in flight but hit dead on and the arrow sticks straight in the target where as the normal FOC arrows stick in the target at an angle.I'm getting more penetration with the higher FOC ones.
I have to shoot a lot in pretty stiff winds here and the results are easy to see.I mostly only shoot out to 30 yds and there are no issues with aiming right at the bulls eye in a 30 mph cross wind.
It's crazy to see but the arrow can be going down range at an angle but when I get to the target,the nock is pointing right to my bow which is where I stood to shoot.
It would be interesting to chrono the normal FOC and a higher one,at 30 yds,if they weighed the same.
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Flying at a angle with many types of broadheads would really affect penetration with a lighter bow. I have noticed this with my Alaskans in a bad cross wind, I thought it was something that I was doing wrong. If an arrow that does not tack into the wind, like the woody mentioned, how far at my 25 yard favorite shot do they really blow off line? Back when I shot targets, it was a challenge to guess where to hold the pin in relation to the current gust of wind. But those were the long meter shots, not hunting range. Over the years I think leaning the shot into the wind becomes second nature. One more reason for me to stick with what I have.
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While out stump shooting/shed hunting I shot 2 arrows at a stump about 80 yards out. Arrow #1 was an carbon 500 with 290 grains up front with 3-5" fletching, wind was steady 25 m.p.h. crosswind arrow wagged all the way to target constantly correcting for the fletch drag. Arrow #2 same specs but 3-2" fletching stayed on course with little or now obvious tail wagging. I think it was more a case of fletching that efoc. JIM
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Zradix,
Nothing personal bud. Just adding my 2 cents. I'm a "forget the wind... just shoot" kind of guy.
;)
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Oh heck no..not personal at all. :thumbsup:
Shoot, I like hearing your 2¢ enough I spent $20 ( or whatever it was) to read it ...lol
I'm not going to argue with the voice of experience..just sharing mine, then shutting up and listening...
:campfire:
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I tend to agree with Charlie. The other point someone brought up is that with high foc arrows you can use much smaller fletchings then normally used. This is the ticket to nearly removing wind drift or a kick all together. Think about it for a second an arrow flying through the air does not have much surface area for the wind to catch as it is generally only 11/32"-5/16" diameter. The fletching is what the wind mainly has an effect on . Try this little experiment for yourselves and see what you think though. Go out and shoot a set of perfectly tuned bare shafts and fletched arrows on a windy day. In my experience the wind has very little if any effect on the bareshafts but a noticeable effect on the fletched arrows. I myself use big fletchings even after this test though as most of my hunting is done here in the south and it usually doesn't get very windy here so I want as much stabilization as possible.
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My concern is that it gets pretty windy here around Bozeman.
As far as fetching size is concerned, does anybody use the 2" Rayzr feathers? If they steer the broadheads properly that might be the ticket.
I am thinking about using Victory's VAP shafts. Ultra small diameter and light. I would need 200+ grains up front to get the weight up to an acceptable level.
Should be less effected by wind with the small diameter shaft and smaller feathers.
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I've done some playing around with smaller fletching just because I know someone who uses them. What I found was - if a shaft shoots darts bare shafted it can shoot darts no matter what fletch size is used IF your release is perfect. The results, even with broadheads were great until I plucked a little and then who knows where that arrow is going to end up. There just wasn't enough steerage with the smaller fletch and a large broadhead under a less than ideal release.
As is surmised, the arrows flew great in the wind with fletching as small as 2". Much less kick to the side. My set up was a 720 gr. arrow with 23% FOC and a Grizzly Kodiak up front. A slight change in vertical point of impact at 30 yds. but less than I anticipated.
The problem isn't the equipment, it's me, the shooter, being just inconsistent enough so the smaller fletch hurt more than help. If I had more consistent form on release, I'd change all my arrows over to 2". These weren't commercial fletching just cut down 5" parabolic.
Now, for use with field points, blunts, or real small broadheads they might be the ticket but I never tested those.
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I agree with ya Pete.
Many talk of forgiving bows....
I feel forgiving arrows are just as important if not more...
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If you go back and read all of Ashby data he has collected in the reports, I think at one point he does come up with a recommended fletch size and from having read in other places those who try that fletch size have really good luck in wind and still no problem with killing an animal.
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Pete M. x2 for me, couldn't of put it better
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Does anyone know what size fletch Ashby recommended?
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I believe it became known as the A&A fletch type. It was like 2.5"long 4 feathers and 2.5" tall at the back of the feather.
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I'm not a big EFOC fan myself. I prefer a more balanced arrow personally.... but for guys who like that up front weight, the amount of fletching needed for good flight stability is less for field tips than it is using broadheads.
I would recommend a 2.5" low profile feather with a good helical set to it, or a Bi-Delta vane set up works very well in windy conditions.
They also make a low profile "Quick Spin" vane that does really well in a cross wind. the problem with running vanes on a Trad set up is you typically need an elevated rest and a cut past center riser to get decent shelf clearance.
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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
The "sideways" example is exaggerated. If your arrows are flying "sideways" no set up is going to do well.
I'd rather hit the mark with an arrow that's slightly unstable than miss with a stable arrow.
Amen. Can't kill what you don't hit! Or don't hit in the right place!
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Originally posted by JimB:
I mostly only shoot out to 30 yds and there are no issues with aiming right at the bulls eye in a 30 mph cross wind.
Jim...don't take this wrong....but are you saying that with a 30 MPH CROSS wind at 30 yards you do NOT have to lead the bulls eye?
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The A&A fletch is 2.5" long and 0.5" high at the rear feather, basically a right triangle.
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What I am always curious about, can I make my arrows so they will NOT tack into the wind? Then the question is how far does the wind move an arrow that flies straight behind the broad head? No matter how fast the arrow is moving, it will drift with the wind, the variable is how much it catches the wind versus how long it is in the air. If you drop an arrow straight down and it takes one second to hit the ground, the amount of wind drift will be almost identical to a shot that takes one second to reach the target. It may not be as far as you think, but there will always be some.
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I shot a judo a couple times in a 60 to 70 mph cross winds just to see what would happen. It's just a guess on the wind, I was elk hunting in Colorado up on top of Burro mountain. Couldn't hardly stand up. The arrow was a 22216 with a 145 grain head and 3 5 1/2" fletching. The shot was about 25 yards and the arrow would turn almost a 90 degree angle ( side ways ) then correct itself about 4 or 5 times before it hit. The funny thing is I thought it would be blown several feet off target but was only about a foot. Probably had no energy by the time it got there.
Try this, take a hfc tapered bare shaft and throw it up in the air 50 feet and it will hit point first. Now try a normal shaft it won't.
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I toss arrows like yard darts all the time and shoot them where they stick. They are just your basic tapered cedars or 1918s. When you toss your's they don't?
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me too...it's a fun way to practice!
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Originally posted by pavan:
I toss arrows like yard darts all the time and shoot them where they stick. They are just your basic tapered cedars or 1918s. When you toss your's they don't?
Bare shaft no feathers.
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Still hoping Jim would get back to me on the windage question.
Anyhow, I like a straighter arrow hitting the target every time. I'd rather have the whole arrow drifting more even than some scenarios I've seen and like the ones here I'm hearing about. More energy to drive the arrow than one hitting at an angle.
How much energy does a sideways arrow rob? I don't know but do know I've snapped a few wood arrows that hit sideways back when I USE to bare shaft. They always snapped 2-3 inches from the point.
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My point exactly Terry.
There is a definite balance to be found in a HUNTING arrow...target shooting clearly runs on a whole other set of rules.
There is something to be said for a fairly high foc hunting arrow with 4 5" feathers....talk about stable..I love it.
....but I know I don't want to shoot at game in a strong cross wind with them at more than 10yds. Seems to take about that long for my arrow to get "weather vaned" by stiff winds ( 20 mph or so).
If I knew it was a really windy day I just might take my woodies that do fly much straighter thru a cross wind...only because they're a little heavier overall arrow, much less foc, same feathers.
...not because wood has "magical" properties...lol
Really I see no problem with having different arrows for different situations..
I mean...I'd LOVE a new Vette C7..but I'm not taking it mudding...
To each there own of course...but that's my story.
:campfire:
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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
The "sideways" example is exaggerated. If your arrows are flying "sideways" no set up is going to do well.
I'd rather hit the mark with an arrow that's slightly unstable than miss with a stable arrow.
How far are you guys shooting anyways?
That's funny right there
I thought the heavy foc was used by target shooters to help out with the cross wind stuff - don't do that but thought that was correct.
I was out at the range one day with a wind behind me, like 30 mph, flight was so bad I went home. I don't practice on super windy days for that reason. Same shaft bare shafts at 20 yards. Still blame the wind and not some weird form, gravity, alien thingy. Maybe the moon was out - never looked for it.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Still hoping Jim would get back to me on the windage question.
Anyhow, I like a straighter arrow hitting the target every time. I'd rather have the whole arrow drifting more even than some scenarios I've seen and like the ones here I'm hearing about. More energy to drive the arrow than one hitting at an angle.
How much energy does a sideways arrow rob? I don't know but do know I've snapped a few wood arrows that hit sideways back when I USE to bare shaft. They always snapped 2-3 inches from the point.
Terry,yes.I don't even think about it.And it's not a subconsious/compensating thing as I use point on to shoot at 30.Now understand,I'm talking about really high FOC,like 29-35%.I get a substantial loss of penetration with standard FOC arrows hitting the target at an angle but as I stated,the second the high FOC hits,it enters straight.It's a crazy thing to watch but happens everytime.
I had been talking to trad friends about this for some time and later,Doc Ashby wrote about the very same thing.
I have briefly played with trying to build a standard FOC arrow,exactly the same diameter and weight as my high FOC ones to make a real comparison but so far that has been difficult.Adding internal weight,the entire length of the shaft has done all kinds of crazy things to flight.It's a real juggling act to get it tuned,and the exact weight.If I ever can get that accomplished,I would like to do a penetration test,chrono at 20 or 30 yds and maybe a flight test.
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My most stable aluminum arrow for cross wind shots is 4" four fletch, 27" bop with either a 160 Grizz on a glue only ferrule or the same shaft with a screw on Delta. If that Delta would be 22degrees off when it hit a deer, the effectiveness would go way down, depending on the attitude of the blade at impact. I have cedars that are better. A fellow told me that it was not possible to get a pass through with wood shafts. He went on to explain that he uses only 750 grains with 30% foc and he had never gotten a complete pass through, so we never get them. Back in the 60's we had many discussions about too much point weight and too much broad head surface and what it did to arrows in the wind. Wind on the prairie can happen, but when it is one of those 'put rocks in your pockets and tie down Gramma' winds, I stay home.
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Here's one for you to try .... You've got a 4" left wing helical arrow shooting right handed with a cross wind blowing from right to left. shoot the arrows a few times and get your lead established for drift.... Then switch directions 180 and shoot with the wind blowing from left to right and watch what happens... the difference will blow you away!
please pardon the pun....
Hey Katman... Those 2.5" fletching sound perfect to me. where do you purchase yours?
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Kirk, I just shortened from the back some 5 1/2 shield fletches with scissors, cut 90 degrees, at 2.5" they came out 1/2" tall. The buck in my avatar fell to a high foc arrow fletched with 4x90 A&A.
I think the height of the fletch plays an important roll in tail drift.
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i noticed this with EFOC a couple of years ago. while i like lots of point weight in my arrows i believe there is a practical limit to efoc for hunting arrows. there comes a point where the penetration advantage of efoc is nulified by their poor crosswind performance and the resulting negative effects on penetration.
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Hey Ozy Clint-what was that point where the penetration advantage was nullified by cross wind performance?
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If a broad head hits crooked, the cut angle may not be optimal. Also, if the arrow is crooked to its line of flight, the amount arrow weight behind that head is greatly reduced. I have had a couple of magnificent side steps with wide stubby heads. I am not sure if there is a perfect fix to monster crosswinds .
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iowa- not sure mate. i guess it would change with different fletching styles and the surface area they present to a cross wind. my arrows are around the 23-25% range and they seem to be ok in wind. penetration is good. not sure if there is a be all end all figure.