Just got word that some forms of bear hunting in Maine are being put on a referendum. If passed bear baiting, use of hounds and trapping will be prohibited. I am attaching a link that summarizes the issue and includes information about how you can get involved by making donations or if you live nearby how you can do some support work. My experience with Maine leads me to ask you to support the Sportsman's Alliance of Maine (SAM). Contact info is in the link. If this bill is successful this could be the last season that you will be able to hunt bear over bait in Maine.
http://firstforhunters.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/attack-continues-in-maine-against-bear-hunting/
Good luck Maine hunters...
Everything else is being attacked everywhere else, so fighting for what is right is going to be the norm from here on out.
Bonebuster....It's not just about Maine bowhuters. 87% of bears taken in Maine are taken by non residents. It's a hunting issue as well as an economic one for those that make a living guiding as well as the motels, stores and gas stations that benefit from all the "tourists" that come to hunt. We are not talking about one guide service going out of business....it's a whole State!
This is a scary one. If you have ever or planned on hunting bears in Maine, you really need to throw your support that way.
You're right on spot Bill!!
Such short sighted people pushing these types of campaigns. If they were to get their way, it wouldn't be but a few years and the same people would be wringing their hands and wondering what to do with all the bears venturing into towns going through dumpsters....etc
I see your point Bill....I should have realized this.
I have a neighbor that bear hunts in Maine EVERY YEAR. He has brought home some true monsters!
Hopefully, common sense will prevail.
Welcome to NY
This is a tough one because nearly all Eastern hunters support baiting for black bear, but due to conflicts and trespassing, a growing number of pro-hunting non-hunters and hunters alike no longer support dog hunting unless the dogs are under the control of the owner or within owners sight or shock collar.
In the 21st Century, the act of releasing hounds in fairly populated area's to run all over other people's property is an activity that is as out of date as smoking in a hospital waiting room.
Bear baiting is no problem, but on my land I have endless headaches from people that release packs of dogs on some nearby small public parcels and they then run for miles and all over mostly private land, where they are not wanted in anyway. To make matters worse, there's several well documented cases where the houndsmen are killing bears on the private land of others, which is very illegal. Trailcams are now showing just how common it is.
My only trespass problems on my land is with hounds and their owners running bear and coyote and coming onto my land every weekend day for weeks at a time in late Summer and Fall. (Winter with coyotes). I have no other trespass problems with small game or deer hunters. In fact, I'll allow strangers who ask to hunt coyotes by calling them in.
In Michigan, hound owners can legally trespass on the land of others. So what they do is release dogs close to good private land and run all the game off that land that they otherwise could never hunt. Then, they can go onto your land, claiming they are looking for their dogs. It's all legal. Total BS.
Of all my neighbors, and everyone is a hunter, we'd all vote to ban hound hunting not because of ethics, but because of endless trespassing and the "you can't do a damn thing about me trespassing" attitude of the houndsmen I've repeatedly asked to leave my land. Keep in mind, the houndsmen are not locals or neighbors and they have only very small public parcels in which to release their dogs. There's been years where either me or my neighbors had to call the CO every weekend that they can run dogs.
I have no problem if hound hunters went to the UP where they have 1000's of public acres in which to run, but releasing 6 dogs on 160 acres of public land surrounded by private is another. Better yet, they could buy their own club and fence it and run their dogs to their hearts delight.
A solution for Michigan is allowing hounds in the UP only or banning electronics on dogs that allows them to run and be tracked for long distances. Keep the dogs on a leash and give the owners some very much needed exercise.
But the days of running dogs thru the exurbia, bedroom communities and rural suburbs are coming to an end. The houndsmen have created a situation where they have really PO'd otherwise neutral non-hunters and one where even many sportsmen are not going to come to their defense, due to their aggressive trespassing. And that's a shame.
Where I bear hunt is in Northern Maine. It is very remote (watch the series "Mountain Men" on the History Channel and the guy from Maine is trapping where I hunt...about 50 miles from Canada). In fact, Jimmy, the trappers friend is one of my guides. The real problem is that HSUS is going to spend $3milllion in the urban populated areas where the number of voters is very dense and liberal, and knowledge of what goes on in the wilderness is something out of a Disney movie. They don't even know the impact, economically, on the rural population nor are they aware of the revenue the State looses if they win. Ten years ago the vote was won by hunters by 53% - 47% and the majority of naysayers were from the Portland and Southern parts of the State where bear hunting is out of sight and out of mind. An email or letter to the governor would help...so would a contribution to SAM or the Maine guide's Association.
Several years back we hunter's in the Bay state lost a similar bill by a wide margin. The two biggest problems were fighting a nationally funded organization and it's illegal for state biologist to say anything during a political campaign. So many TV ads full of nothing but lies and the professionals we support couldn't say a thing.
Just joined the Sportsman's Alliance of Maine.
We have to fight this aggressively.
Just donated to the Maine Guide's Association,too.
In my opinion, the reason Maine has been picked now is because Maine is the only state that still allows trapping of bear and one of the few that still allows bear hunting with hounds.
The optics of these two will be very difficult to fight on TV, print and internet modes of info. One video of a bear in a trap will undo 95% of bear hunters talking to the non-hunting public.
If Maine had been bait only, I doubt we'd be seeing this push at this time.
From a little research, it appears that Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. Tennessee, Michigan and Wisconsin are the last Eastern states to allow statewide dog hunting for bear. It appears that Georgia and Kentucky allows dogs in some area's. I assume they are remote areas? Anyone know?
The future of bear hunting in states East of the Mississippi will be bait only or even no bait, but the long term future of hunting big game with hounds in the Eastern USA is in it's final years.
While a tough pill to swallow, it's my opinion that the hunters in states that still allow dogs for bear would be wise to suggest their state go bait only or only allow dogs in the most remote, unpopulated area's or they may well end up losing the whole ball of wax. Mine is an unpopular opinion on hunting websites, but I believe it's the path to consider. I also thought that the Michigan wolf hunt was a dangerous course and that Michigan hunters will spill an enormous amount of political good will with the non-hunting public over what likely will amount to a very controversial one season only wolf hunt that accounted for less than 50 wolves and now the anti's are descending with huge checkbooks and a possible (likely) ballot initiative that we hunters are going to lose and lose badly, if it in fact gets on the ballot.
People think they can use their vote to force anything and everything on the individual. The constitution is supposed to protect us from tyranny of the mob.
It may lead to a fight in the end.
I too joined the Sportsman's Alliance Of Maine and I'll be donating to Save Maine's Bear Hunt.
I may never go to hunt in Maine but it galls me to hear and see the "bunny-huggers" attacks on the things that I hold dear.
They can spin it, and wrap it in pretty ribbons and bows, in order to fool people, but its Communism, plain and simple, and it's past time to take a stand.
May we all stand for that which is right... Freedom!
BAPilot you are spot on!
The Constitution protects us from tyranny in government...
the rifle protects us from tyranny from mobs.
Unfortunately we are our own worse enemies. The NRA is so powerful because of its numbers. Our state hunting organizations would be just as powerful if hunters joined their state organization but they don't.
Bill, I just joined SAM, thanks for the update!
I don't agree with taking away citizen's rights, BUT going along with what Mojo said earlier a lot of the Bear hunters in my area-not all- have the opinion that dogs can't read No Trespassing signs I've heard that so many times that it should be a bumper sticker. As it is in most cases a part of the community is eventually going to mess things up for the true responsible sportsmen. The only bad experience I've personally had is a hound showing up in the yard at 1:00 A.M. and it's owner riding up and down the road blowing the horn and yelling for an hour trying to get the dog back I hope a fair resolution can be found for this issue good luck guys.
I'm afraid Mojo nailed it with the visual. When the bill was passed here, there were many ads showing animals in traps. They showed ads with dogs being trained to hunt bear. Bear was chained and the dogs were set loose to bite at it. Of course the ad didn't mention the dog training was in another state! I could go on and on.
The anti hunting groups are certainly smiling reading this [hunter against hunter] who do you think will be the next on there list if they get trapping ; baiting ; and hound hunting stopped ; and do you really think the hound people are going to help if they lose there sport . UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Fav,
This is just my opinion, so please take it as just that.
As a political strategy, what we can't do as hunters is always run off towards the sounds of the guns and charge the machine nests without a realistic plan, just because.
Joining "groups" isn't going to do anything, in most cases. What do the groups even stand for? What clout do they have or will ever have? Most of these groups are well meaning, but their leaders have zero political savvy.
Nearly all hunters have no issue with bear hunting. Nearly all hunters have no issue with bear baiting, at least in the East.
Most hunters have no issue with hound hunting for bears in the East, as long as the hounds and their owners stay on either public land or their own land. If guys want to run bears, they need to do so only on their own private hound clubs. I don't know if you own land or pay taxes on hunting land, but trespassing isn't cool anymore. Far from. It's strangers stomping all over your land and driving all the game off it, that is a huge issue.
In my personal situation, do you know are the only people who ruin any of my hunts or season plans, on my own land? No, it isn't some PETA hippy. No, it isn't deer hunters sneaking in. It's bear houndsmen walking all over my land, busting thru the sanctuary's I don't even enter, smoking cigarettes and yelling for hours for their dogs, for weekend after weekend. And when I've confronted them and demand they leave, on my own land, they basically tell me to screw off because they have a very old law that allows them to use my land. Well, I'm telling them that they are no longer welcome in my hunting fraternity. It's over. It's hunters stabbing others in the back, and violating land owner rights which is the real issue. Hunting is a mere privilege. As a landowner, I have rights.
I see you're from Iowa. I doubt you've dealt with these types of bear hunters. If it only happened occasionally, I'm sure anyone would be cool with it. But when it's packs of hounds running by the cabin at 7am and the ATV's and trucks running all over, every weekend and 10 guys tromping all over your farm or hunting land, your realize they folks aren't part of the same team you're on.
Instead of running to the sounds of the guns and getting mowed down, as hunters with no organization usually do in the political arena, the wiser action is to realize our defendable positions and defend them, successfully.
Bear baiting is defendable. Running hounds was defendable in 1914. It isn't workable in almost all of the Eastern USA in 2014. And trapping bears in 2014 is the biggest political loser I can think of.
Again, just my opinion for the general debate. Debate is good.
Here's a case where a landowner, a hunting pro-hunting landowner, had 20 some houndsmen bust in and kill an illegal bear on his land. Turns out, it was the biggest ever taken in the county.
This type of behavior is exactly similar to what I experience all the time in my area.
Sadly, my experience with these types hasn't been one of brothers in the hunting community, but more like a flash mob that comes in and loots a 7-11, then runs. But your land is the 7-11.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481107
Here's the follow up and slap on the wrist that the trespassers got...
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494215
QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
Here's a case where a landowner, a hunting pro-hunting landowner, had 20 some houndsmen bust in and kill an illegal bear on his land. Turns out, it was the biggest ever taken in the county.
This type of behavior is exactly similar to what I experience all the time in my area.
Sadly, my experience with these types hasn't been one of brothers in the hunting community, but more like a flash mob that comes in and loots a 7-11, then runs. But your land is the 7-11.
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481107
Here's the follow up and slap on the wrist that the trespassers got...
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494215
Bob - do you live in the lower or UP? I'm a pretty responsible beagle guy.....and I can't imagine running bear dogs in the lower. Too much private land.
I'm aware of the law that allows me to go get my dog if it crosses onto private land. And I have exercised it exactly once. I realize running rabbits is a smaller scale than bears, but....I make sure I know where my dog is, and if she is heading onto private land, I call her off. Just last week I stopped her on a hot trail because she was heading straight into a private section. The time that I did go onto private land to get her, I first secured my bow in the truck. I was NOT hunting, I was chasing my dog.
I am all for hunting bears with hounds, but houndsman who do it adjacent to too much private land are irresponsible.
As for trapping bears, I think it's pretty darn neat that Maine sportsman can still do it....but that is going to be a pictorial nightmare. Good luck Maine, sincerely.
The problem in Maine is that the attack includes baiting and dogs and trapping....not one or the other. Joining SAM does help. They are very local and probably the largest sportsman's group in Maine. They were primarily responsible for winning the last efforts to do this. One of the unintended consequences of the issue is that black bears are the #1 killer of moose calves. If the bill is passed you can expect that in years to come the moose population and hunting of them will dwindle. It's a BIG issue.
Roger,
I'm near Big Rapids. So I'm in the southern end of the NLP. I'm in the heart of the Baldwin unit. I have lots of bear in the area.
The problem is, I'm an hour away from over 1,000,000 people. So every guy from Muskegon or Lansing with a UP permit comes to my area to run bears. There's weekends where 2-4 different groups of guys come thru on a Saturday.
You can see why we're sick of it.
I have virtually no issue with guys running dogs in the UP, but in Newaygo county? We average 55 people per square mile. Compare that to Baraga, with 8 people per square mile.
I've talked to the MDNR bear people and my state rep. They know there is a problem in the Baldwin unit. The Baldwin unit is the #1 unit for complaints.
You can realize that the Big Rapids/White Cloud area is way too populated for running bear with dogs. Frankly, there's so many houses compared to 30 years ago that I've surprised rifles are still allowed for deer in my area.
The solution for my area is easy, go bait only.
Let's put it this way, it's so bad in my immediate area that I have 10 bear points and I won't turn them in until a change is made, because all my neighbors who've turned in their points for a Baldwin tag got screwed by endless dog groups.
Another option for training dogs is that there's no training in the Baldwin unit, unless someone in the group has a valid Baldwin tag. See my idea?
As it is now, since the Baldwin unit is the most southern unit, and we do have good bear numbers, tons of guys with permits for the UP don't train in the UP, they train in the Baldwin unit. So we've got a ton of training traffic.
I hope this explains things better. I have no issue with the ethics of running dogs for bear. But after about the 40th group of guys come busting thru my land in a 2 month period, it gets really old.
Maybe a lottery for training in the southern units is an idea. Somehow the traffic in the Baldwin unit needs to be managed. Although for the southern units, I still say bait only is the answer. That's how Wisconsin does it. Michigan needs to do the same, where the high human population zones are bait only.
Are you a member of MBHA? If so, please pass along our plea's. Myself and neighbors are avid sportsmen and very much pro-hunting, obviously. But when something isn't working, it doesn't work. Running bears where you could cross up to 20-50 different 5-20 acre landowners in a morning doesn't work.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-x8RSBQbeoh0/UCCEsXK1ErI/AAAAAAAAAAU/8vSkL-7-hJ8/s1600/StateZones.jpg)
Mojo,
The points you make about the guys who hunt bear with dogs could be exactly applied to the guys in MS (where I used to hunt) who "hunt" deer with dogs. A more disrespectful, dishonest, law breaking bunch you will never find. They KNOW their dogs are coming on your land and they just could care less.
I saw one truck with a license plate that said, "Save a deer dog, kill a still hunter."
There comes a time when you need to seperate from those who by their voluntary, willful actions endanger the sport for all of us. We can only defend what is defensible. Dog hunters running all over private land at will is not defensible - at least not for long.
QuoteOriginally posted by John146:
Mojo,
The points you make about the guys who hunt bear with dogs could be exactly applied to the guys in MS (where I used to hunt) who "hunt" deer with dogs. A more disrespectful, dishonest, law breaking bunch you will never find. They KNOW their dogs are coming on your land and they just could care less.
I saw one truck with a license plate that said, "Save a deer dog, kill a still hunter."
There comes a time when you need to seperate from those who by their voluntary, willful actions endanger the sport for all of us. We can only defend what is defensible. Dog hunters running all over private land at will is not defensible - at least not for long.
X2-nothing makes my blood boil like dog hunters dumping their dogs out on one side of my property and chasing all the game. They do it on purpose.
Let me add, I'm all for bear hunting. Between my dad (RIP) and myself, we have 5 Grizzly kills between us and black bear hunting in Ontario was a tradition with everyone I grew up with.
But with dogs chasing game off land, well, that is the whole point isn't it? The dogs are just deer/bear drivers with legal access to anyone's land. The whole point is to drive game off land where the houndsmen have no access onto land that can be legally hunted by the dog owners. But by hoping a bear may eventually end up on some public land a couple miles away, they sure tear up a lot of private land on the way. That IS the issue between hunters. It's not the ethics of shooting a bear out of a tree or over a pile of donuts, it's how the bear got there is the debate.
Lots of hunters pay lots in taxes to own private land. My tax bill is nearly $10,000 a year. I don't appreciate strangers coming from who knows where to tromp all over it and then tell me I can't make them leave. It's like coming home and finding a stranger on your couch, drinking your beer, watching your TV and not only can't you make him leave, if you shoot his dog you pay like a $10,000 fine.
Michigan's dog law is from 1919. Things have changed since 1919. Wholesale trespassing just isn't cool anymore.
Maybe minimums of acreage could be set? Again, if someone is on the remote UP in the middle of 10,000 acres of public land, that's totally different than being on 200 acres of public and letting the dogs lose 100 yards from a mile section of private land, which is what happens in my area.
All I know is, from talking to all my neighbors and all of them hunt but none of which run dogs, if banning hounds ever came up on a ballot, we'd all vote for it. The hound hunting groups should fully understand that and that they need to change, not us, the landowners whose land they're hunting.
But that fix is easy. In Michigan, make the LP bait only and allow both bait and dogs in the UP and I think everyone wins.
For Maine, I'm not sure what can be done. The fact that they are the last remaining state in the East that allows bear trapping, and the HSUS has lumped trapping, dogs and baiting together, seems like a tough to win situation. If trapping and dogs was removed prior to the election, Maine hunters could probably save baiting. But my guess is like HSUS, they'll defend all 3 practices lumped together.
Either way, it's a huge shot across the bow for all hunters. The actions of one small group lumps us in with their behavior. While the immediate reaction of some is to defend all hunters at all costs, just keep in mind that when you go knocking on doors for hunting access, it could well be a single bad experience with one group of hunters who has cut off access to the rest of us, forever.
All i needed to see was hunting under attack.
My donation will be taken care of as soon as I get back in the office tonight.
The argument of dogs is not the real issue at this specific moment. And that is a debate for another thread IMO. This thread should be to help Maine. Even if you don't live or hunt there still help. I promise this kind of crap will make it to your area and you will want all of our help then. 10-15 bucks for everyone on here would go along way to help as a whole but by itself won't buy a meal for 2 at McDonalds... My beer belly could get along just fine with one less fast food meal. And when we have these battles in Michigan (seems like always), I hope others help us out here.
I think they should keep the hunting legal and just make it illegal for the dogs to trespass.
Thanks guys for all your kind words and support!Some of you have some great points,
like Bill said, trespass is not a really big issue here in northern Maine.
most of the bearing is done in remote Maine. I think the worst thing we can do as hunters is be devided. We need to stand together in times like this! These people we feed on this and eat us up if we don't. Bear hunting today,But it could be deer hunting or hog hunting in your back yard tomorrow! If this happens 1. loss of 900plus jobs
2. a 100 million dollar hit to our economy 3. loss of our spring moose calves and deer fawns. 4.The over population of bears coming in to our towns.Thanks to everyone who has and will donate! I promiss when they come to your state Maine will stand with you!
Tony
Squapan Mountain Outfitters
ttt
After fifteen years of no spring bear hunt in Ontario they have opened it up again for Ontario residents only in a few Wildlife Management Units around the big centres such as Sudbury, Timmins etc. This is a two year deal.......hopefully it works out and they let in non-residents in a few years......... Haven't heard much whinning about it from the antis yet...... :thumbsup:
ttt
There is obviously a lot of emotion on this matter but I'll try to tread lightly. If I have searched correctly there are 32 states with black bear seasons and 20 of them do not allow baiting. It is obvious that even in a wilderness area bear hunters are not the only people using the land. Is it hard to believe that bears have extraordinary noses and ALWAYS detect human scent in the bait area when they feed? Is it not then probable that there is a very real chance that bears feeding on set bait are more inclined to become "problem bears" for other hunters, fishermen, backpackers etc..?
Concerning chase dogs, much has already been mentioned here about bear hunting with them by private property owners and I can attest to knowledge of the same slobs and deer dogs in residential areas adjacent to "hunting clubs" near where I live in a large Metropolitan area.
Concerning trapping bears, I.M.H.O. it is a different subject than hunting and no matter how passionately you may defend the practice against restrictive legislation, it will be hard to avoid getting your ass whipped by a few photos.
Laws regulating hunting and fishing have been passed affecting Sportsmen in every state for more than a century now and they will continue to be passed, it's not Communism but simply reality. The way we conduct ourselves such as the stickers we put on our vehicles, the t-shirts we wear in public and the pictures we post on sites such as this one all affect the Public's perception of us and is critical whether we like it or not because it is that "Public" that decide with their vote whether proposed legislation passes or not.
I clicked the link read the details and sent an email to them to find out how to make a donation directly to this issue. Hopefully everyone on here did or is gonna do the same thing. If you didn't or arebjot going to shame on ya. If you are on this forum you are obviously passionate about bow hunting. Right now in Maine bowgunting is under attack. We as passionate bowhunters need to step up and give the organizations in Maine the money they need to do what they think is best to fight this. It always comes down to money.
Click the link, send an email and donate some money to protect our sport. Every dollar matters. Even if you only give 10 bucks do something. 20 is better than 10 and 40 is better than 20. 20 bucks doesn't buy crap in today's society, but 20 bucks from everyone might let us win another battle and prove our strength
Bless you LB hnyr!!!!! Maine thanks you! Its our fight today but it will someone elses tomorrow!
Tony
This thread started with Bill Carlson asking for support and financial help for the bear hunters in Maine. There is always a certain percentage of hunters that agree with parts of any anti hunting referendum. We all know about divide and conquer. Is there anyone that doesn't realize these referendums are written with the intent to do exactly that?
This reminds me of the bear hunting referendum in Colorado that passed years ago. That vote stopped all spring bear hunting, all running with dogs, all types of baiting , and even banned any use of scents. The sad part of it was, over 20 percent of hunters agreed with certain parts of the referendum and voted with the anti's. If not for that 20 percent, the referendum would have failed. Not saying the posters from Michigan would vote that way but the trespassing troubles mentioned kind of highlights a problem if such a referendum were held there. Maybe Michigan lawmakers should be approached about changing the law on trespassing.
One thing for sure, as hunters we need to all stick together as we should know the consequences.
give an inch, they'll take a mile. Thats how they chip away at it!!!