Trad Gang

Just heard from Dale Karch that 3Rivers got a shipment of Zwickey's new BH design. Dale and I field tested the prototype heads on water buffalo and they were awesome.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/NoMercy2.jpg)

How much do they weigh?

What's the difference between the new head & the Delta? Can't really see from the pic...

Ya can't just throw out a SCRAP like that Denny  :banghead:    :banghead:  

No SIR.....Give us somethin ta Chew on  :jumper:    :jumper:

oooooh long, lean and nastey lookin......jus how a broadhead should be!!

Single bevel?

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.asp?show=info&c=57&s=42&p=119&i=4217-1#full

Go to 3Rivers and read all about it. They are 130 grains, and as yet, priceless. They come in 3-packs instead of the 6-packs, so I anticipate that there is a price hike here. They do not obediently leap into your shopping cart when you give the command, and so the clamor grows...
Welcome to Capitalism. Now, tell us your hunting stories.

Killdeer

A narrowed-down Delta. Not sure what advantage over the Eskimo?

Kinda looks like a light version of the Stos to me...  Nothing wrong with that either.

I guess they changed the name from "Little Delta" to "No Mercy"????

Egads it's a green STOS!   :D

No thanks. If I want a single bevel head, it'll be a Grizzly.

I think I remeber Dale saying the Zwickey he was testing was  stainless .  Is that correct Denny?

QuoteOriginally posted by Tilbilly:
A narrowed-down Delta. Not sure what advantage over the Eskimo?

Don't know for sure yet...but if they are the same width, then the longer length of the 'No Mercy' will make it penetrait better as they have a longer edge to the same width .

What is the advantages of a single bevel over a double bevel?

you been living under a rock stone knife?   :p  
go to the top of this forum and read Dr. Ashby's report on the advantages of single bevel over Double bevels.  
Derek

Zwickey Delta is 1/4 inch longer and 1/4 wider at its widest part. Save money buy Deltas and modify them yourself to the same profile and the single bevel. I think that would be even better if your modification didn't change the length of the Delta.

I'm sure it is a great head, but I think C2 makes a good point.  I'd rather have a modified Delta that maintains closer to 3:1 or just get a Grizzly

Quote
Nice to see another single bevel....and one with a sharp point. [/QB]

So is that the answer to the million dollar bevel question? If so, I'd be considering using these. Narrowing a Delta myself and creating a single-bevel would also mean dropping significant grain weight to get there. Not worth it. But the new heads would have the 135 gr. intact, good steel, and Zwickey's reputation for excellent ferrule roundness.
 :thumbsup:

It doesn't say anything about single bevel on the 3Rivers write up.  Where is the single bevel info coming from?  I guess I missed it?

Still looks like it would favor a right hand helical fletch?  Maybe it could be produced with a choice of either right or left bevel? I hope?

QuoteOriginally posted by SlowBowinMO:
It doesn't say anything about single bevel on the 3Rivers write up.  Where is the single bevel info coming from?  I guess I missed it?

I guess by the pic in the link....I could be wrong though.

And yes.......I modified some like that once....and the didn't weigh 130 grains when I was done....so there's extra metal in these than if you 'cut one down' yourself, so these would be stronger.

"Where is the single bevel info coming from? I guess I missed it?"

Check Pg.1, Terry Green's comment. Hence my comment. But looks like everyone's waiting for confirmation from Mr. Sturgis.

Whoops, posted at the same time. Ignore my post.

Quoteyou been living under a rock stone knife?  

Why do you think they call me stone Knife   :knothead:
Actually I went on to read about the single bevel and found out that it is the spiral wound channel that makes them better. See I'm not as dumb as i look   :bigsmyl:

Just read a post "somewhere else" that sez

"I don't think they are single bevel. The prototypes weren't, but I would put them up against anything for penetration because the tip is thin but very strong (no elf shoeing). "

Instead of shooting a single bevel to get the twist at impact (make a hole), why not just shoot a 3 blade?

I don't get it........

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
I don't get it........

That's because you're old school. Come on Biggie, join the 21st century and get with the program here.    :bigsmyl:

I have been told to stick with a two blade, because i shoot only 47#.

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
Instead of shooting a single bevel to get the twist at impact (make a hole), why not just shoot a 3 blade?

I don't get it........

because a 3 blade will not penetrate nearly as good. now will a 3 blade penetrate enough mayby, but is still not the same. plus the little thing about cutting blood vessels at an angle instead of at 90 degree's, greater blood flow.

helmet on (check) in my foxhole (check) waiting on return fire (check) possibly atillery from biggie (yep)

Lader

J

After a double lung, will this head penetrate into the dirt farther than Delta or eclipse or Eskimo or Griz or Silver Flame............  :goldtooth:

Biggie the 3 blade will just shoot holes in them.The single bevel twist them in half like a potato.  ;)    :goldtooth:

I understand how the modified delta would weigh less after modification, but I don't understand how they would be any weaker.  You wouldn't be taking any metal off the head in any area that would weaken the head.  I'd  be interested in knowing what the final weight of a modified delta would be.

QuoteOriginally posted by bm22:
plus the little thing about cutting blood vessels at an angle instead of at 90 degree's, greater blood flow. [/QB]

In the real world, it's impossible to have any control over the angle your broadhead cuts a vessel. Greater blood flow results from cutting in the right places.

Nice to see a new head from Zwickey.  Green is good!

bm22 how much energy does the twisting head use upon impact?
You don't really buy the bit about cutting blood vessels at an angle do ya???????

   

This is too much for me. Just go sharpen a good steel broadhead and go kill something.

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
This is too much for me. Just go sharpen a good steel broadhead and go kill something.

:thumbsup:  

I can't imagine that there's a broadhead out there that hasn't taken game at some point. I also can't imagine that there's a broadhead out there that hasn't performed upto expectation at some point.
As long as it's sharp & put in the right place, one's as good as another!

Biggie: Razorcaps get my vote, too. How's life down south?

I don't think Dr. Ashby ever said a 2 blade was better than a 3 blade if they are both put in the right spot and don't hit any bone. I think his study showed that if bone is hit, a single bevel 2 blade has better penetration than a 3 blade.

How could cutting blood vessels at an angle increse blood flow???  When a blood vessel is cut through, it's open - doesn't matter if it's a diagonal or square cut, does it??    :confused:   Besides, how do you guarantee a diagonal cut??  Doesn't it depend on the angle of the vessel to the blade?  All blood vessels do not run east/west or north/south.....

Scott, Read the multiple current threads by Dr. Ashby: the Grizzly often has exit cuts in an "L" shape caused by the twisting of the head from both arrow rotation and the single bevel grind. Theoretically, this motion cuts more than a double ground head (hence the "L" shaped wounds vs. simple slit from other 2 blades). Lots of interesting thoughts, opinions, and now, even some data on this issue.

As far as this new head, looks like a STOS to me, but I'm kinda simple. I do like the STOS though, guess this would be just as good, maybe even better if the single bevel rotational cuts prove to be more fact than anecdotal.

There are soooo many good heads out there, it would be difficult to purchase a cut on contact head that didn't perform well these days. I am trying to kill a big game animal each with a different head this year: goat with a woodsman, bear with a deadhead, ? with a razorcap, ? with a Stos, ? with an interceptor, ? with ? (whatever else I may come across). I now typically carry 3-4 different broadheads in my quiver cause I've found ALL the ones I shoot will perform well on anything I would ever hunt.

Get em sharp, put em in the right place, and there are a bushel basket of heads that will perform.

I'm not a BIG game hunter but I've killed my share of deer sized game, and probably part of someone elses share too.... I hate to say this but I've had a bow in hand off and on for about 40 years, I'm 53 right now.  Been satisfied with good two blade heads sharpened in a double bevel manner. My penetration hasn't lacked in the least, most of the time pull the arrow out of the dirt after it passes through the animal.

I'm not going to argue about the single bevel grind as I have very little experience with them. I do have some grizzlies though. What I will say is if you put a good sharp two bladed, double grind head in the right place you will kill your game..  

I'd spend my time practicing rather than worrying about the grind of my head..

Flame suit ON............lol

BTW, the new Zwickey looks like a copy of the STOS to me.. I remain a huge Zwickey fan though.

              Good shooting,
                             Pat

I've shot deer and hogs with STOS, Magnus, Snuffers, and Bear Razorheads;  All of them went completely through the animal.  Unless your hunting water buffalo or something like that, I think any broadhead on the market is going to do the job.

STOS is the first thing that came to mind for me too.  I've used them though and had great luck.

I think that 3 rivers changed the link, and I can't find anything on the site.  Any ideas?  Thanks

There's a post on the "Wall" from 3 Rivers saying they are NOT single bevel heads.

A lot of folks have been re-grinding Zwicky Delta and Magnus I heads to a narrower profile for years, even befor ethe advent of the STOS head.  They worked great then and still do.

 Sounds like Zwickey is just getting on the upcoming bandwagon that Dr. Ashby's research is gonna create.  Why not ?  They make great heads anyway, may as well make one someone wants to try.
ChuckC

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
bm22 how much energy does the twisting head use upon impact?
You don't really buy the bit about cutting blood vessels at an angle do ya???????

   

This is too much for me. Just go sharpen a good steel broadhead and go kill something.

i guess i beleive what dr. ashby says' he does have the proof to back it up.So do you think dr. asby made all of those reports up and none of it every happened or do you have an alternative theroy you would like to share with us to explain his results i would be glad to listen. i love to learn new things   :)

QuoteOriginally posted by roknjs:
I understand how the modified delta would weigh less after modification, but I don't understand how they would be any weaker.  You wouldn't be taking any metal off the head in any area that would weaken the head.  I'd  be interested in knowing what the final weight of a modified delta would be.

That modified head woudn't be any weaker ....but the new head would be stronger...since it will weigh more, meaning it will have more metal in it than the modified one.

Yeah joebuck, I'm still running 4 blades through deer and hogs......but I think this head is for bigger big game.

bm22..all of my experience is practical not test and theorize. I don't doubt Mr Ashby's results, I just don't see all the fuss over such minor details.Like many have said on this thread, most any good sharp blade will getter done.

"I just don't see all the fuss over such minor details"

It fills the time between seasons   ;)

They are not single bevel I mailed 3 Rivers and they said that the no mercy heads are double bevel but they had excellent results on asian buffalo

QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
bm22..all of my experience is practical not test and theorize. I don't doubt Mr Ashby's results, I just don't see all the fuss over such minor details.Like many have said on this thread, most any good sharp blade will getter done.

i have seen that for a fact as well. a guy i know shot a doe with a factory edge wensel woodsman. i think the most important thing is shot placement, broadhead selection is a distant second. thou i try to use the most efficent "traditional" equipment i can use.

i try know you have a good reputation as an excellent hunter by i try not to change or not change what i do basic on what we "think" is happening. i like to use hard data. i was just curious if you had something that proved a different point.

alot of people use big snuffers and those huge treesharks and i don't think anyone would argue those two heads are not even close to as efficent as a zwickey. and they never have a problem but i am not that lucky and need the best head i can use.
thanks for listening to my rant

May have to try some of these  ;)  I like the looks, and I've always loved Zwickeys.

Good idea, but unless I'm going after "BIG" big game(buff and such)with minimal equipment. I don't see the need for a narrower head.

Or maybe someone shooting minimal equipment on reg critters(women, young hunters, etc..)that might need a narrow head to help penetration. Just don't see what all the hype is about really....

I like them(my broadheads    ;) )  big and nasty    :scared:    :thumbsup:

I agree unless you are planing on shooting something really tough it is nothing that matters.If I can shoot the biggest broadhead made out the other side a smaller head sure will not help me much.  :)  The look like a green Stos to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Guru:
Good idea, but unless I'm going after "BIG" big game(buff and such)with minimal equipment. I don't see the need for a narrower head.

Or maybe someone shooting minimal equipment on reg critters(women, young hunters, etc..)that might need a narrow head to help penetration. Just don't see what all the hype is about really....

I like them(my broadheads     ;)  )  big and nasty     :scared:      :thumbsup:  

:thumbsup:

I agree, just got home from an elk hunt and saw this thread, I knew Zwickey was coming out with a new head, but I have to say this is a bit of a disappointment, much ado about very little and I am a big Zwickey fan. If you are going to make a head for BIG game, make it a BIG as in HEAVY head.